Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Cold-Approaching Women, Friend-zones, and Other Terrifying Things

May 10, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles Calabritto & Dan Littman Episode 82
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Cold-Approaching Women, Friend-zones, and Other Terrifying Things
Show Notes Transcript

Do you walk up and introduce yourself to a pretty girl? Do you try to become her friend first, and then try to transition to a dating relationship? In this episode, we'll discuss the good, bad, and ugly methods that guys use to attempt to meet and connect with ladies that they're interested in. We'll also share what has worked for us, and what has failed miserably.

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Dan:
Good morning Charles, how are you?

Charles:
spectacular Dan, thank you, how are you?

Dan:
well.

Charles:
I am coming at you from an old location but a new angle. I finished some of the, well, I shouldn't say I finished. I began some of the rearranging slash improvement of my camper where I'm going from a two-person booth, dinette thing to a long, narrow desk along one side. So now my background is my kitchen instead of my wardrobe. And so you can see some of the most important things in my life. coffee maker, my jar of creatine, all the things that make

Dan:
Hehehehe

Charles:
life worth living.

Dan:
Absolutely. No, it looks good. I like

Charles:
Thanks.

Dan:
it. It looks it looks it's cleaner. It makes you look like a human being. You're not you know in some

Charles:
Ugh.

Dan:
Trapped in some closet somewhere And it's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
actually a lot more inviting to look at from from my side here. So I appreciate

Charles:
All right,

Dan:
that

Charles:
well,

Dan:
my eyes. Thank you

Charles:
yeah, if we ever do anything with these videos, then somebody can enjoy the look there. So we'll see.

Dan:
Yeah, absolutely.

Charles:
How's your week going?

Dan:
Weeks have been a little busy for me, a

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
little bit busier than I would like in terms of multiple tasks. I was just telling somebody last night at Rung Group. I always like a busy productive week, but when it's multiple different themes, it just wears me out where I have, I'm kind of task switching my brain from one business or one type of task to another. It just really wears me down. So that's the kind of week I had, but I'm not getting some sleep. stuff off, I'm squared some things away. Most importantly, I cleaned out and got my portable hot tub up and running again.

Charles:
Excellent.

Dan:
That had not been that was at a commission for a while, and it took

Charles:
Nice.

Dan:
a lot of more elbow grease than anticipated to clean that thing. But I got it nice and clean. I got it up and running. It's hot. It's ready to go. So I'm looking forward to enjoying that after a couple of longer runs this week. So yeah, but it was

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
the overall was good week. Yep.

Charles:
nice. Yeah, in addition to working on my camper and rearranging some stuff in a way that I'm happy about, the diet's still chugging along, still, I don't know, I'm feeling like I'm plateauing a little bit where I'm not seeing the number go down every day like it was in the upper 150s now. And I'm

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
just trying to remind myself that the result that I'm looking for on the scale. It's what I see in front of my

Dan:
All

Charles:
eyeballs.

Dan:
right.

Charles:
And so I'm trying not to get too discouraged. But man, when you get addicted to that, you know, seeing four, six, eight ounces dropping off every time you weigh in in the morning, it's hard to say goodbye to that and still feel like you're moving forward.

Dan:
Remember your body does not go in a straight line down, right? We're

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
gonna go, it's gonna expect it. It's gonna go back up for a little bit. You know, might be a week or two, stick with it. Just stay consistent.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Your body needs to make a lot of changes on the inside, all these adjustments. And then, everything that's going on there at your new weight. So know that this is part of the process. Expect you're gonna probably plateau, maybe even gain a pound or two. But then it'll, it'll, you'll make progress again. So it's a, it's marathon.

Charles:
Yeah, it sure is. And I hate marathons. The, you know,

Dan:
Hahaha.

Charles:
I want to, like BJ Fogg talks about, it's that big, go big or go home mentality where it's like, I want to do something real big right now and see a real big result right now. And, you know, just getting used to the idea of, no, it's the little things over long periods of time that get you what you want. And

Dan:
Yeah, I mean,

Charles:
that is not how I'm naturally wired at all.

Dan:
that's not how most of us are wired at all. That's why plastic surgery is so huge. You know,

Charles:
True,

Dan:
that's why

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
everybody's willing to chomp down a pill with just even the hopes of something drastic happening. Screw the side effects, screw, you know, I mean, if there's like a 1% chance of it working for me,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
I'll take it, you know, so yeah.

Charles:
Yeah, I mean, that's the mentality behind, you know, scratching off lottery tickets and

Dan:
Mm-hmm

Charles:
it's interesting. I had my session with Renata on, my therapy session with Renata on Wednesday and the topic of Ozympic came up.

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
And in Brazil, that is not a prescription. You could just bite over the counter. So she said people in Brazil where she's forever just going great, like everybody's getting on it now.

Dan:
Oh my gosh, wow.

Charles:
So yeah, it's trying to do as much with as little effort as possible. I get it, man. I am, that is my cup of tea. If I can make things work that way, then I try. But yeah, changing your body in a healthy way for a long term, it doesn't seem like there's any free lunches or easy outs. They're all

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
slow and steady

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
is the only way that works, unfortunately. Speaking of which, I've been doing a step challenge on the way better app pretty much non-stop for the last six or eight weeks. Excuse me. And my goal is getting very, it's starting to feel very high because they bump

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
it up. You know, as you continue to do these challenges, your

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
average goes up. And so they want you to stretch past your average every challenge. So now my normal days are 13,000. My stretch days are 15,000. And I am finding. I cannot just get those. with, you know, going for a mile walk in the morning before work. It takes much more deliberate time and effort. The other night I was a few thousand steps shy. So I drove over to celebration downtown celebration where I used to live. And I had to do three laps around the lake to get up to where I needed to be for my, for my step goal that day. And, uh, I mean, it's a good time. I always have a podcast or a book I want to listen to or, enjoy and but yeah just I also enjoy just laying on my bed at night and watching watching some TV on my phone or on my television set but I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
enjoy getting these challenges done a little bit more so as long as that keeps up I guess I'll keep doing it

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, you know, I get it. Same thing for me, I'm doing the way better, you know, 5k challenge and it's forcing me to do running on days I really I'm on the fence or don't want to do it at all because

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I just want that sense of completion. You know, so, you know, I can see that, you know, being a challenge, but yours is constantly increasing. Mine is staying the same. I'm not actually increasing it every

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
time. So it's not pushing me quite as much as you. So I guess, you know, my question to you is, do you know your why that you're doing this step challenge? Like, what's the result and the outcome that you want to get by completing it? And are you going to do another one? Or after you finish this, you're done? What what are your thoughts

Charles:
No,

Dan:
around

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
that?

Charles:
gonna keep doing it because I mean part of it is, you know, I'm using that food tracking app, the, what's it called? is,

Dan:
Thank you. Thank you.

Charles:
oh, chronometer. I'm

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
using chronometer, and whenever I go on a walk and I select on my Apple Watch that I'm about to do an outdoor walk, it records the walk and my heart rate, it records my pace, the distance I cover, all that stuff. And then chronometer imports that and it adjusts the amount of calories I have left for that day based on the physical activity I've engaged in. So,

Dan:
Have a good one. Thanks for watching. I'll see you in the next video. Bye.

Charles:
you know, I definitely still believe, as the science clearly indicates, you can't out walk a bad diet. You can't just go walking for two hours and then think you get to eat anything. But going for that two hour walk, which is what it usually averages out to, it is the difference between getting to have some apple slices and a little bit of peanut butter before bed or not getting to do that. And so

Dan:
Mm-hmm

Charles:
it's right there in black and white phone and so it makes it even the you know right now my step challenge is four active days and one power day and then two days off but I don't feel like taking the two days off because I want that buffer in you know I want the physical activity and I also want to be able to free up you know those four or five hundred calories so that I can have a snack if I want to and so

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
I'm just

Dan:
no, I was just, yeah, no, and I think that's great. I was just saying, you know, it sounded like you were a little concerned about it keeping increasing. And my thought was, well, you know, exponentially, it can't keep going, you know, it can't

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
keep

Charles:
Not

Dan:
increasing

Charles:
forever.

Dan:
forever. And then also, at the same time, is what kinds of other things are you sacrificing? Because, you know, that you have to now do those extra steps, are those

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
things that are things that you really want to be doing. that you really want to do and you know cutting you know cutting off your

Charles:
I mean, it's really just, I'm swapping out. The way I see it is it doesn't feel like a hardship yet because again, I am listening

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
to podcasts and I am listening to books. And so I am, I'm being entertained while I'm doing it. So really all I'm trading is entertainment of one kind from another. So I could be sitting in my chair here or laying in my bed watching a TV show that I, you know, is on my list to binge on Netflix or Amazon or whatever. But instead of that kind of entertainment sedentary and idle and just watching and listening to something. Instead, I'm going for walks and I'm just listening to something. And so...

Dan:
Okay, it's not like you're too exhausted to do something the next day with, you know, with

Charles:
No.

Dan:
a girlfriend or something like that. It's not like affecting other parts of your life. Okay.

Charles:
And that's one of the things I love so much about walking. And one of the guys I follow on YouTube and Instagram, one of the fitness coaches, he's like, the great thing about low impact, steady state cardio is you'll burn fat and you will pretty much, in almost every case, from going on a brisk walk, you will be 100% recovered from just a brisk walk when you wake up the next day. It's not

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
like when you go heavy with high interval, high intensity interval training, or when you're lifting heavy, and you might need a couple days to recover, it's like, no, if you go for a comfortable but brisk walk for two hours, you wake up the next morning and it really has no impact on you, where

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, no, that's

Charles:
other

Dan:
great.

Charles:
types of physical activity have a little bit heavier of a cost that you bear.

Dan:
Yeah, I was just wondering, because those steps, the step counts getting up there. So

Charles:
It is, yeah, pretty soon

Dan:
you

Charles:
I'll

Dan:
could

Charles:
be.

Dan:
be getting to the point of where you're waking up the next day and you're like, ah, I'm feeling this a little bit. You know?

Charles:
Well, the other thing I did notice is I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna probably buy a new pair of shoes today because my favorite sneakers that I like to wear for fashion purposes are Retro Rebox. I like Reeboks that are like 80s style Reeboks. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
they've got that 80s style footbed technology instead of some of the newer stuff that's out right now. So I'm thinking of getting a pair of newer tech like Adidas running shoes or something like that since I'm gonna be putting in more steps. The most comfortable shoes I have right now running marbles that I, whenever I go to a big city or I go hiking, I usually bring those along. But I don't want to wear them out just walking around streets in my neighborhood when

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
they're for, they're for trail running. And so I'm thinking of buying a walking or jogging shoe today that'll be a little bit more comfortable because when my, when my step count starts at 15, 20,000 steps in a day, I do start getting a little bit of tired feet and a little bit of

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
upper back neck pain. two from all those steps. And so if a $75 pair of shoes is going to make that more bearable and keep me in the game longer, I'm just going to go buy a pair.

Dan:
Yeah, I just got a new pair myself for running

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
and I forget, you know, how worn down my other ones work because I'm like, oh my gosh, there's so much more spring in my step.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
It's so much more comfortable on my feet. And I'm like, why did I wait so long to get a pair? Have you ever gone to like the running store and get, you know, get it like your feet molded and, you know, so you can figure out, okay, you know, do you have a, you know, are you pro? Are you, you know,

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
protracted

Charles:
I did.

Dan:
you, you know.

Charles:
the first time I ever did a couch to 5k, I did that. And, you know, running is a whole another issue because, you know, honestly, if the step count keeps going up just from a timing perspective and an efficiency perspective, running would help me get through these steps a lot faster than going for a brisk walk would. But I still hate running and I am not trying to train for something. I'm trying to just get my, my body fat down. So, um, I think that, you know, whether I under pronate or over pronate or any of that stuff,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I don't think that matters quite as much. If I'm just going for, you know, 19, 20 minute mile pace walks, I don't think it matters. I don't think it matters.

Dan:
You're right, pronated. That's the word I was looking for. Oh my

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
God, so funny. I couldn't think of it this morning. But it is important though to look at the right kind of shoe because when we run, the part of our foot that hits the ground is a lot different than when we're walking.

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
So

Charles:
yeah, for

Dan:
it

Charles:
sure.

Dan:
might not be bad to just go and say, hey, look, I'm looking for a walking shoe rather than a running shoe. And I'm under or over pronated, whatever that is. And once I figured it out and I bought particularly for my pronation, it makes a difference. It really does, especially, and you'll definitely notice it considering how much you're walking.

Charles:
Interesting.

Dan:
So

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
just

Charles:
maybe.

Dan:
with that, and they're not that crazy expensive at those stores. So I think it might be worth it, you know, just

Charles:
Well, you and you also have the option to, you know, go to one of those stores and get

Dan:
to...

Charles:
checked out and then take their advice to Amazon. I mean, you know, obviously support local business, blah, blah, blah.

Dan:
Yes, correct. Correct. Yeah.

Charles:
But that was the thing I used to do when I was real heavy into renewing my IT certifications. I would go browse the shelf at Barnes & Noble and figure out, okay, what is the best book to help me study for this test? And then I'd go on Amazon and buy it for half the price. And that's.

Dan:
Yeah, you're probably not

Charles:
That's

Dan:
the

Charles:
part

Dan:
only

Charles:
of the

Dan:
one, right?

Charles:
yeah, that's

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
why Barnes and Noble probably took a bit of a hit for a while and it's interesting. They're coming back quite a bit. I think post-corona, if you want to call that what we are doing right now, post the,

Dan:
right

Charles:
yeah, people being stuck inside so much have, it's kind of reignited the interest in bookstores and going to bookstores and you know going there and enjoying a coffee and reading a book and being around

Dan:
I love it.

Charles:
other people. So

Dan:
Oh, yeah.

Charles:
Barnes and Noble is doing

Dan:
I love it.

Charles:
pretty well

Dan:
I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

Charles:
local bookstores that I've had on my list for a while to go check out and see see what they're about and You know with as many books as you and I buy and read It's it's it's good to support the local businesses if we can

Dan:
Definitely worth it.

Charles:
but then again, you know

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
everybody not not many people You know to have unlimited funds for books You have to start Amazon comm and the rest of us have to shop on price a little bit

Dan:
Yeah, yep,

Charles:
So

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
anyway,

Dan:
sure.

Charles:
okay, let's talk about the new chapter in our book here, Approaching Women. And yeah, this is an interesting one. This is a practice I have never engaged in. I even, you know, when I was, I mean, I married pretty young. And so when I got single again after my divorce, the idea of just seeing an attractive woman and going to talk to her never really worked for me for a couple levels, a couple reasons at a couple levels. I, number one,

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
you know, certainly approach anxiety. the idea of just walking up to a stranger for almost any reason and just starting a conversation with them makes me extremely uncomfortable. I don't want to do that. And secondly, going and starting a conversation with a woman in particular only on the basis of finding her physically attractive also doesn't appeal to me because I guess if you're in the right

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
setting, if you're in an where you know something about shared interests, shared values, then maybe it would be more appealing. But just the idea of we both happen to be in this bar, this restaurant, or this nightclub at the same time, and I like the way she looks, so I'm going to go invest some time and energy in speaking to her. That never really, that never did it for me.

Dan:
Same same same with me. I have not approached many women, you know, in person, most of my long term relationships, I think all of them actually have been, I've met them online, where

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I know that they are looking for something that I can give them, right? Whereas out in the world, you have no idea, you're basically going around asking them for something, right? You're asking them for their time and attention, you're asking that you're basically interrupting them for whatever they And you are asking, you know, you're basically saying, hey, you know, do we, let's, let's at least have a conversation. So you are asking something, you're not giving something necessarily. Yeah, you are giving some of your time and attention, but they didn't ask for that. You don't know if

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
they want that, right?

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And so the way I look at it is, I mean, if you want to break it down almost like a sale, like you're a salesman at that point, right? But you're

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
salesman and it's not a war, it's a cold lead. You have no idea, right? You don't know if they're single, you don't know if they're interested, you know? And so, a big ask to, I feel, you know, meet people in person or to try to, you know, meet a romantic interest in person. That's not easy to do.

Charles:
Well, yeah, and let's talk about the other side, like the people who would argue with us, what would they say? We'll do a little bit of steel manning of the other side of this argument.

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
So

Dan:
let's do

Charles:
the

Dan:
it.

Charles:
other side of the argument would be, okay, well, you don't just approach people merely on the fact that you like the way they look. You wait for women to give you some sort of an indicator of interest. She makes eye contact, she smiles, she looks at you, it touches her hair. you can take note of that will communicate to you whether you have a good chance or a bad chance of being able to strike up a conversation. I believe that to all be true. I think that's probably likely.

Dan:
I agree. I agree. No argument for me.

Charles:
The other thing is, yes, she has not asked you to approach. You don't know if she wants you to talk to her. What this author would say, I believe, is that just the mere act of you going over and starting a communication with her, not knowing that she wants it, is something that will make you more attractive to her because you're willing to do something that most men are not willing to do.

Dan:
That's fair.

Charles:
and you're basically saying, I want to start a conversation with you and you might not be into it, you may say no thanks or you may tell me to piss off, but either way I'll be okay. And I'm doing this because I wanna do it, I wanna see what happens. And that attitude is one that women find attractive, at least generally

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
speaking they do. So yeah, it's really up to every guy I decide if it's worth the risk. I would say that you're single and you're putting yourself in environments where you have reason to believe that the attractive women in that environment share your interests, they share your values, they may have something interesting to say or contribute to your life, then you should at least be open to the idea of doing some experiments with going to talk to those women. Again, if it's just we both happen to be, you know, randomly at Mathers on a Friday night and that's all you know about each other. If I'm number one, I don't go to Mathers at 9 p.m. on a Friday alone, I'm there with my friends and my purpose to be there is to make you and Kurt and Richard laugh and to have you guys make me laugh and to tell stories and to talk about interesting things with the news and politics and that's what I'm there for. I'm not there to meet women and that's, I mean, obviously I have a girlfriend now but even when I didn't, that was the case. I wasn't there to go out and meet people.

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
I was there to have fun with my friends. And the thing to remember, we talked about in our last episode about bars and clubs is women are usually there for the same reason. They're there to have fun with their friends. They're not there to entertain

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
offers from suitors. They're there to have fun with their friends. Maybe enjoy a little bit of attention because they're having a couple of drinks and cutting loose and they look pretty. They did their hair and their makeup and put on a nice

Dan:
And they

Charles:
dress.

Dan:
put some time in it, they put some time

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
in it, right, exactly put some time and effort into it, sure.

Charles:
So they may want some interest and attention, but your goal for being at that place may not be, I just want to give away interest and attention, but there's a good chance that that's all they're there for.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And so if your goals don't align, there's probably not going to be much that happens. Whereas if you are at your favorite independent bookstore, your favorite coffee shop, you're at your Dungeons & Dragons club or your run club or whatever, then it may make a little bit more sense to go introduce yourself to someone. you know that there's a reason that you're both in this place. It's probably because you both share some interests. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video. I'm going to go back to the beginning of the video.

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I've just joined the run club that Kurt's been one of the many that Kurt's been a member of. And that's absolutely the case, the people there, both men and women, everybody is very much very friendly, you know, very welcoming. They're looking for ways to connect with people, especially new members in the group. And so,

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
yeah, it's, you know, yes, we have, you know, the running in common, I mean, but most of these people are like training for marathons. I'm like, yeah, I'm squeaking out of 5k.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
And like I met one guy last night, he's running a marathon in every state. And he's

Charles:
Holy

Dan:
done 20

Charles:
crap.

Dan:
of them.

Charles:
Geez.

Dan:
He's done 20 of them already. Yeah. And and he's got these doing another and I thought it was a wonderful I thought it was a great idea. I was because he's going to see places that he'd never would have imagined he'd go to but he's got a reason to do it because he's going for a marathon. So he'll go for like a weekend and hang out there and stuff. So yeah, yeah, good guy. Lance Lance

Charles:
That's

Dan:
is

Charles:
wild.

Dan:
guys name. Yeah.

Charles:
I wonder if he's done Rhode Island yet, and if you just have to do two laps around the whole state. Yeah.

Dan:
He, his next one is actually Rehoboth Beach, uh, Delaware. And he's like, I've never been to Delaware. I'm like, neither have I. So I don't know. Um, yeah, I don't know how it's going to go, but, but exactly. It's, I feel like if, you know, you've got, if you've niche down and you're doing a very,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you know, you basically are in a common place. Yeah. You've already established that rapport because everybody knows you, you guys have the same kind of interest level at, at a minimum, you're going to have something in common.

Charles:
right.

Dan:
kind of built from there.

Charles:
Yeah, so I would say, yeah, whether you've decided that approach is something that you are open to or you're not open to the main message that I think the book is trying to convey guys and they even have a whole case study on this where there's a girl and a guy that meet each other online. And they're getting along well, she likes him. But then she gets approached, you know, at a subway station or something bites just some guy who says, Hey, I like your dress, I like and instantly her attraction for the guy that she's already talking to goes down because she doesn't know if he's confident. Where this guy was willing to just blurt out, you know, in public not knowing her, hey I like the color of your dress and the guy that she's, you know, just started seeing, she doesn't know if he's a confident guy or not because they met online. So

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I guess one of the things we have to ask ourselves is men who are, you know, if we're looking to meet women is what can we do if we're not willing to or we're not in places where we think it makes sense to cold approach women, how can we communicate that confidence in ways that will still translate? And I would argue that there are ways to do that, even with online dating, that you may not, they may not seem completely clear or intuitive. One of those things is in either your profile or your first communication, be willing to make a joke or a reference to something that other people might not be willing to make. And so this is going

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
to be one of the things that Mark Manson talks about in his book Models is, you know, you've got to be willing to be polarizing. You've got to be willing to say and do things that either some people will think are really interesting or funny or or bold. And guy. And I'm not just talking about making a crude or dirty joke. I'm just saying making an observation about the world or about a potential dating partner or about yourself in a way that other people typically don't do, something that says you're willing to push the sort of the norms of expected behavior. That is a way that you can communicate confidence that people find attractive.

Dan:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Charles:
And yeah, you did that on one of the versions of your dating profile. I believe when you mentioned your waxing practices. What was it that you said?

Dan:
That was a little while ago. Yeah, so... At the time I was getting a manzillion. I was getting, you know, the...

Charles:
Oh, that's right, you're getting a free one from that place that was just gonna start offering them, right?

Dan:
That's right. That's right. Yes. That's right. They wanted a test dummy for

Charles:
Hehehehehe

Dan:
the man's Brazilian. And I was like, yeah, like, all right, I'll do it. I had a pretty good experience and I kept up with it for a while,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
but I am no longer getting the Manzilians

Charles:
but

Dan:
anymore.

Charles:
you were willing to reference that on your public dating

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
profile,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
which a lot

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
of people would not do. which I think is great.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, nobody really, you know, and everybody met, nobody really mentioned that ironically, you know, so it's not like, oh, you know,

Charles:
Not

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
so ironically,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
I mean it's very rare that even when you have a business, your customers are not going to come out and tell you spontaneously, here's all the reasons that I keep coming back to your shop.

Dan:
Fair. Right, yeah.

Charles:
In online dating, you're not going to send everybody a survey monkey link to say, hey, why did you write

Dan:
That's

Charles:
swipe

Dan:
a great

Charles:
on

Dan:
idea.

Charles:
me?

Dan:
I love it. I love it. Survey Monkey

Charles:
Yeah, you can set up a free survey, I suppose, if you're doing online dating every you imagine someone, your opener is please, please click on this link and fill out the survey while you swipe right on me.

Dan:
Hey, I welcome constructive criticism. I need some feedback.

Charles:
Alright, so, yeah, so let's see what else this book, this chapter covers. So, one of the things is, obviously, you're not going to have a chance with a girl unless you decide to interact with her on some level. One of the mistakes that a lot of men make because it's easier, it lessens the chance of rejection. It seems like it would be a good idea based on messaging that we receive from media and love stories and stuff is Oh, I'll just make I'll make friends with her first and then after we're friends,

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
I will I will push to get something more than friendship, right?

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And I don't know. I've certainly unsuccessfully attempted that and I've I've had some success in that area as well, but there's a big difference. I I were friends, we were acquaintances, then we were friends and very close friends, and then we started dating. But I didn't go into it with the goal of, I'm going to be her friend so that somewhere down the road, I can be her boyfriend. It

Dan:
Mm-hmm

Charles:
was more of, this is a very attractive, funny girl that I'd like to hang out with and be friends with, because for my own dating prospects, is good because they have hot funny friends and because it lets you practice dealing with girls that are very attractive and and things like that so There's there's lots of good reasons to have girls who are just your friends but the worst reason is Because you think okay if I become her friend then I will transition it to something else It kind in my experience and in my conversations with my buddies It only happens it only works what happens kind of by accident You know what I mean? if if if

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
you go into a friendship with that agenda. Your friendship is not going to be a very good one and your relationship is probably never going to happen.

Dan:
Yeah, and I think the biggest reason for that is... the girl will figure it out.

Charles:
Oh, absolutely.

Dan:
They will

Charles:
And

Dan:
know they will

Charles:
yes.

Dan:
they will they are so much more attuned to body language and tone and behavior so much more than men are. They will know what your true intention is and you're going to look weak because it's going to look like you're too much of a you know, a weak person to actually come out and say hey, I'm interested in you in a romantic

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
way. I'm pretending to be a friend, but my behavior is showing something different. So there's two problems with that is one, it makes you look weak and you don't have the guts to talk to her or be honest with her, but two, because you're not being honest, whether you're being dishonest, and now she can't trust you because

Charles:
All right.

Dan:
you're lying constantly to

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
yourself, to her, to the world around you, and now you're not trustworthy. And that's the biggest no-no when it comes to, you know, with anybody is trust, first of all, in any type of relationship. And second of all, now they don't feel safe, right?

Charles:
right

Dan:
Now, if you can't trust somebody, you really don't feel totally safe around them. And now you're, yeah, and now you're gonna come, at some point you're gonna burst and have some big epiphany right before she, cause she's telling you about all these guys that she's attracted to and you're being their friend. And I think there's probably an example in the book, that where the guy is being her friend and she's interested in another guy and he finally comes out and says something to her and he's like, oh no, it's like, I don't want to ruin the friendship. And, you know, so yeah, there's

Charles:
Yeah, exactly.

Dan:
nothing good that comes out of trying

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
to come in with deceptive motive and trying to be the friend.

Charles:
And that's a brutal conversation because, you know, yeah, you, you finally spill your guts to this girl to tell her that you're attracted to her and you want to date. And she's like, I don't want to ruin our friendship. And you're thinking in your own head, I didn't even want this friendship in the first place. I'm only here because I knew that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
we would eventually get to this conversation. So, you know,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and, and yeah, and that is a dishonest and disingenuous thing to do to somebody to, to make them feel like you're, you know, I have a joke every, Valentine's Day that I post on social media where I say shout out to all the girls who got over the top romantic gifts from guys They thought they were just friends with Because

Dan:
I've been

Charles:
look,

Dan:
guilty of that when I was younger. Absolutely,

Charles:
I have two.

Dan:
I've done

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
it. Yeah.

Charles:
when I was in high school, that was the thing. I would use the excuse

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
of Valentine's Day to tell this girl I had a crush on that I had a crush on her. And I'd get her some chocolate

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
or something stupid like that and think that, oh, everything's going to work out great. And it never did. So yeah, that's the, and there is a bit of a slight, speaking of high school, there's a bit of a sliding scale as far as how doomed the strategy is. The older you get, more doomed it is. The younger you and the girl are and the less experienced you both are, there may be a little bit more wiggle room when you're young and in middle school or high school for something like this. But yeah, the older you get and the more attractive the woman is, the less likely this is to work.

Dan:
Yeah. Hehehe.

Charles:
because again the older she is and the more attractive she is the more she's had to deal with reading men's intentions because so few of us will actually just

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
come out and say what's on our mind what our goal is what's on our agenda so the more skilled she has to be in trying to detect what a guy is looking for even though he's not willing to say uh... alright so let's talk about some of these more direct approaches that uh... that can work uh... the more willing you are to talk to a woman with some sort of a connection to the environment that you're both in. Again, whether that's, you know, your favorite coffee shop or the Spanish club that you're in or the dance class you're in or the run club that you're in, the more you're able to talk to her in a way that ties in the mutual experience that you're sharing, the more likely, you know, you are to have some sort of a fruitful interaction, right? So, you know, if you're

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
in your favorite little organic grocery store and you're, you know, able to say, hey, do you know where the macadamia nut butter is or something like that? Then that is a more reasonable way to start a conversation than walking up to her and asking her what her sign is or if it hurt when she fell from heaven. You know, that kind of nonsense that, you know,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Generally speaking, they don't like and they don't respond to. I mean pick pickup lines are not effective as just saying hi hello or asking a question about your your current shared experience. Now there is a caveat to that to say if you're attractive enough, it really almost doesn't matter what you say and and I'm not just talking about your looks or your height or your hair or anything like that. A big component of being attractive enough is going to be how you approach them as far as walking confidently, making eye contact, speaking with a clear deep voice, things like that. But also your physical appearance and how your dress will be a factor as well. So if you're one of those people that, you know, number one, you know what you're doing and number two, you got lucky with the genetic lottery, you can walk up to a girl and almost say anything that comes out of your mouth and have a better shot than somebody who either doesn't have those natural breaks or hasn't thought about cultivating a first impression the way we've talked about the last few weeks with this book. So a big thing is have the confidence to start the conversation if you want to and if that's the way you want to go. And I think the author makes good arguments for why you should be open to that. But yeah, the confidence and what kind of effort you've put into grooming your first impression and your appearance will be a factor. less than taking the steps to say something in a good environment for that. One of the examples they offer here is in the gym. And the gym and another case study references a waitress while she's at work. And this is where I will diverge from the author, where I will say, for the most part, do not approach women at the gym unless she is giving you very clear indicators of interest that she wants to talk to you. And I would even say, starts a conversation with me at the gym, I'm not going to talk to her because I'm not at the gym to meet girls. I'm at the gym to be at the gym. And

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
I find, you know, if that's true about me, that's probably true about her too. So the idea of interrupting a girl mid squat or mid, whatever those things are that they do where they lay the barbell across their waist and they, and they raise it.

Dan:
Thrust, yeah,

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
the crotch

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
thrust. Yeah,

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
I

Dan:
Listen, in my experiences, I've never heard a woman go, oh yeah, I met this great guy at the gym. Like, I've never heard that conversation before. It's always been like,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I'm trying to work out and this guy came over and, you know, I told him I had a boyfriend, even if she didn't, and he kept talking to me. It's nothing but complaints from girls when I've overheard them

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
talking about their interactions at the gym. Same thing, you know, like on subways and stuff like that. A lot of times, you know,

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
what they, they'll wear, you know, earphones

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
to, you know, the big ones to say, Hey, don't bother me. And, and, you know, they still, they still get, you know, bothered and stuff like that. So, you know, I, yeah, at the gym,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I agree, leave people alone. You

Charles:
I

Dan:
know.

Charles:
look, I totally do it at, you know, if I'm walking around downtown Orlando, trying to get some steps in, I'll, I'll listen. I'll put my AirPods in and I'll listen to something. Number one, because I want to listen to something. And number two, it does seem like some people are a little bit less likely to interrupt you. And, uh,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
and really, you know, again, because I'm in a relationship, there's no reason I want to talk to somebody when I'm on a walk in downtown Orlando. I don't want to, I don't want a woman to express interest in me, nor do I want someone to ask me for direction. or ask me to give them a dollar. So my attitude is if my AirPods are in, it's because I'm into what I'm listening to. And so I assume that from everybody else as well. If they have their AirPods in, it's because they're more interested in whatever they're choosing to listen to than whatever random thing I can come up with to get them to interact with me. So I would say, yeah, if somebody is in the middle of something, if somebody's got AirPods in, and this, I mean, this even, I used to work at a company the whole department all these guys did was code all day. And if they were working at their computer without their, and this was headphones back then, not AirPods, if they didn't have them in, then I could go and talk to them and say, hey, what are you guys thinking about for lunch? But if I would walk through their department and everybody's got their earphones in, it's like, okay, I will come back later when I'm not going to be disturbing them.

Dan:
Right, it is, right, I was about to say it's the modern do not disturb sign on

Charles:
Yes, exactly.

Dan:
the back of the.

Charles:
And okay, so generally our advice, which you can choose to follow or ignore is, whether you're at the gym or on the subway, if a girl has something in her ear that's making noise, she wants that more than the noise you are capable of making. Now, that

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
may not

Dan:
I mean,

Charles:
be true.

Dan:
it's a form.

Charles:
It may be worth the risk, but proceed at your own discretion.

Dan:
Yeah, I'm looking at it like body language, right? If somebody's sitting there with their arms crossed, the same thing to me is they have ear pods in, right?

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
They don't wanna engage, they're not open. Whereas if somebody's sitting there in the open position, they're welcome to receiving some sort of connection, right? So that's how I treat it. And I look at it as body language. I'm

Charles:
Exactly.

Dan:
looking at it as body language. I'm looking at it as body language. I'm looking at it as body language.

Charles:
Yeah, so here are some of the effective lines that they do mention if you want to start a conversation with somebody in an environment where you feel like it makes sense, okay? Hi, hello, those are both good ones and pretty easy. One that Dr. Glover also mentioned in Data Essentials for Men was there was a guy who was down in his place in Mexico attending one of his workshops. at a restaurant eating alone and you see a woman who's also eating alone. I've never done this, but I feel less self-conscious about asking if she'd like to eat together. I don't know. I don't know if I would ever do that.

Dan:
Why is that?

Charles:
I never have, but I don't know because I mean, part of it is I feel like I'm good company. And so if I'm

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
if I'm alone and single and she's alone and possibly single, I do feel like I would, again, maybe this is because I'm a narcissist. I feel like I would make her dinner more pleasant by eating with her than not. And so for some reason, that one doesn't. doesn't give me the Keebie-Geebies quite as much as walking up to a woman in a barwood.

Dan:
Yeah, no, I could see that for sure. So what kinds of things would you want to talk to her about?

Charles:
I probably lead off with who she thinks was really behind 9-11 and just go from there. No, I uh...

Dan:
Always a strong point to start with.

Charles:
Do you think jet fuel melts steel beams? Yes or no? I don't know. My technique on first dates is always to go, you know, to mix between very casual and very heavy because I feel like it makes things interesting for me and that's what I care about most is having an interesting conversation. So, you know,

Dan:
Yelp.

Charles:
where'd you grow up and what do you do for work? And also, you know, what do you think happens when you die? Things like that, you know, is is there any political view that

Dan:
Keep

Charles:
I could

Dan:
it light.

Charles:
if there's any is there any political view I could express to you right now that would make you get up and leave I like asking that question a lot. And because you know look if the answer is yes I want to find that out

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
you know 15 minutes into a first date not

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
not six weeks later.

Dan:
That's fair, that's fair.

Charles:
So I like a mix of heavy and light, but yeah. So other good questions, do you want to dance? That's a good one, which, oof, I've never asked a girl to dance.

Dan:
and

Charles:
And I,

Dan:
girls who

Charles:
it

Dan:
have

Charles:
may

Dan:
asked

Charles:
never

Dan:
you to

Charles:
will.

Dan:
dance, you've shot them down pretty quickly. And when

Charles:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dan:
we were going to a couple of dances ourselves for some of the ballroom

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
stuff, yeah, that was not your favorite thing. That ran you right out of the room a couple of times.

Charles:
I hate being asked to dance and I hate saying no to being asked to dance too. I hate saying

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
yes more, but I hate everything about the whole process. So that's why I don't go. Yeah,

Dan:
area.

Charles:
the God, I hate it so much. There's nothing about that scenario that appeals to me. Having to say yes, even the way that I'm phrasing it, having to say yes to being asked to dance, It's not the way people who love dancing refer to it.

Dan:
So I think it really just comes down to not being confident enough in one of the dances. So I mean, you're pretty good with swing. So what if someone came to you and said, hey, let's do, would you like to

Charles:
I

Dan:
do

Charles:
would

Dan:
some

Charles:
still

Dan:
swing

Charles:
hate it. No,

Dan:
now?

Charles:
I

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
would still hate it. I don't know that, God, I feel like I'll never have that level of confidence. I mean, maybe

Dan:
I feel like you're close right before you stopped.

Charles:
if people were handing me trophies because I was so good at it, maybe. And not participation trophies, real trophies. If I was getting trophies for being so good at it, maybe I would think, okay, I'm good enough at this to say yes to someone asking me to dance, but

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
God. I just can't, I can't imagine. I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
don't know. I am a little tempted to take the, uh, oh no, the first class was last night, so never mind. I was going to say I was tempted to take the, uh, the Tango class down at celebration that Nanette and Dale are teaching, but.

Dan:
Well, you can catch up, they'll catch you up if you just miss one. If you're only gonna miss one,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
it's worth still going, I think.

Charles:
Maybe I'll think about it. I don't know. I don't know. But anyway, okay, the other thing I did want to us. So generally speaking, you know, if you're, if you're one of those mid-level attractive guys like me and Dan, where, you know, it's, you're not in a, you're not in a camp where you have no hope whatsoever and you're not in a camp where everything's going to be easy for you because, you know, you just got, you won the genetic lottery. If you're in the middle, then you should focus on saying things that are better as to things that are worse. So cheesy pickup lines are not a way to go for leading off a conversation with a woman, I would say either online or in real life. So avoid those.

Dan:
I mean, I'm going to say unless you can kind of make fun of yourself for saying it and show some confidence through that and kind of, you know, follow that up with with, you know, making a joke about it. I feel I feel you could use that to your advantage. If you're not if you're not coming in with that as being the serious type of you're expecting a serious response, you know, you could make light of that you could rattle off like two or three in a row, you know, make a little make a little joke about it. You never know, right?

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
You can

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
mix

Charles:
you're,

Dan:
it up.

Charles:
again, you're still, unless you can mix it up in an interesting way, where you're not

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
instantly going

Dan:
sure.

Charles:
to be categorized with a lot of guys who've done the same thing. You've gotta figure out a way to do it in a way that nobody has done before. which is difficult and polarizing. I mean, you know, throwing out a, what's a girl like you doing in a nice place like this could be funny, but you know, it also could be very offensive.

Dan:
I don't know. It's a compliment, you know, it's I mean

Charles:
No, not.

Dan:
offensive to who to the owner the owner of the place

Charles:
No, no, that's the... And see, this is part of the risk you run. You didn't hear me say what I actually said.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
It was, what's a girl

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
like you doing in a nice place like this?

Dan:
Oh. Oh, that's

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
funny. I didn't hear

Charles:
so,

Dan:
the nice place. I didn't hear the nice part.

Charles:
yeah, instead

Dan:
I think

Charles:
of...

Dan:
that bliped that. I thought I just heard place like this, you know? And

Charles:
right

Dan:
that's what I

Charles:
the

Dan:
was thinking. It was a dive bar. Yeah, yeah.

Charles:
no the the the cookie cutter line is what's a nice

Dan:
That's

Charles:
girl

Dan:
hysterical.

Charles:
like you

Dan:
That,

Charles:
do

Dan:
the

Charles:
it

Dan:
nice part

Charles:
in a

Dan:
cut

Charles:
place

Dan:
out. That's so

Charles:
like

Dan:
funny. That's

Charles:
this

Dan:
so funny. Yeah, no, that's funny. That's good. I

Charles:
the

Dan:
like that. It's

Charles:
you

Dan:
good. It's good. You do it in a nice place like this. That's so funny. That's so funny.

Charles:
gotcha

Dan:
Yeah, no, that's funny. That's good. I like that. It's good. It's good. You do it in a nice place like

Charles:
the

Dan:
this.

Charles:
way

Dan:
That's

Charles:
to

Dan:
so funny.

Charles:
switch

Dan:
That's so funny.

Charles:
it

Dan:
That's funny.

Charles:
is

Dan:
That's good. I like that. It's good. It's good. You do it in a nice place like this. That's so funny. That's so funny. That's so funny. That's funny. That's funny

Charles:
what's a terrible girl like you doing in a nice place like this So

Dan:
See, that

Charles:
again,

Dan:
would

Charles:
you

Dan:
be nice. So after you've talked to somebody, you could kind of fit that in as a little, if she gets a little rambunctious, a little rowdy, you can tease her a little bit with that. I think a little bit later, I don't know about opening in the conversation.

Charles:
Well, again, it's

Dan:
whole

Charles:
risky.

Dan:
time.

Charles:
So if she has a good sense of humor, maybe she'll love it.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But if she doesn't, you're done

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
before you start. So

Dan:
Yeah. Right.

Charles:
OK, let's talk about the next case study is about hitting on a waitress, which I would say, do not do because, I mean, hitting, look, hitting on might be a negative connotation. Just approaching would be a better way to say it without quite as much negative bias built in. Approaching a woman that you work with is bad for numerous reasons or at least could lead to complications that you may or may not want. Approaching a woman who's at her job where you are a customer or a client is even more difficult because she's being paid a wage or salary to be there. Approaching a woman who is at a job where how much money she brings home to pay the rent is dependent upon upon her being nice to people is probably the worst case scenario. Because trying to determine whether this gal is being nice to you because she's attracted to you or because it's her job to be nice to you so that you'll tip her and she'll be able to pay her bills is really, really tough. I mean, I,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
we've all been, I'm, I mean, I'm sure most guys have been to a restaurant where they've had a really proficient waitress. who made it difficult for you to think, made it easy for you to think, I think this girl might like me. She's being so nice. And, you know, there is a risk to that because then you're going to put her in a position where the opposite of being nice is telling a guy that she's not interested in going out on a date. And so the second you ask her out, you know, you're putting her into that position of maybe she says yes, or more likely she now has to do what many guys feel like is the meanest thing possible, which is say no to your to your offer of a date. And so

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
as a result, some guys will do things to mitigate this risk by, you know, asking their friend to ask her out for them, leaving a note with your phone number. There's

Dan:
Oof.

Charles:
there's a lot of a lot of things that guys really think is a good idea for how to ask somebody out in a way that might a little bit less that instead of that gets them labeled as a creep or a ew or a cock or whatever word you don't like

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
that can apply to weak men.

Dan:
I-

Charles:
These methods that you think will minimize your odds of rejection are more likely to get you labeled with a label you don't want.

Dan:
Now, I mean, I think it was this book, it might have been Glover talking about the fact is that when a woman is interested in you, they will make it obvious and they will create most of the situations and opportunities for you to engage with them. Whether it's them kind of being around you a little bit more, you know, looking over at you wanting you to pursue them. I would I would be curious. to talk to a few waitresses or people in the service industry, what kinds of things have they done when they do see somebody? I'm sure they see customers that they are interested in and would like to move things to the next level with. I would be really curious to have a conversation with somebody to find out, okay, what are some of the things that they've done to try to get guys to notice them?

Charles:
Well, I happened to have access to a gal who was a

Dan:
Oh

Charles:
bartender for 10, 12 years. And

Dan:
Okay, and

Charles:
I know,

Dan:
she's

Charles:
I know.

Dan:
okay. She shared these types of disinformation with you.

Charles:
We haven't had that conversation before, but we can. And I will ask her to say, OK, tell me how your behavior was different from, I want to be nice to this guy so that I'll get a decent tip from him versus

Dan:
right.

Charles:
I want to be nice to this guy so he knows I'd like him to ask me out. And so I

Dan:
And

Charles:
will,

Dan:
specifically, I have a

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
question to ask her.

Charles:
OK?

Dan:
When someone, a waitress, then basically signs her name and puts a little smiley face on the

Charles:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Dan:
check, what does that mean? What is that? Is that just, I'm flirting with you, I want a big tip? Or I'm interested in more than just a tip.

Charles:
I think that means that the, that her, I think, I think I can tell you what that means, Dan. That means that her trainer Hooters told her to write the little smiley face inside the heart.

Dan:
It's so in all fairness, it's happened to me other places other besides Hooters. So,

Charles:
All right, fair

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
enough.

Dan:
and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
so, so.

Charles:
Okay, I will ask

Dan:
Uh,

Charles:
her

Dan:
yeah, so I, yeah,

Charles:
how she

Dan:
what's

Charles:
communicated.

Dan:
the move? What's the move?

Charles:
Yes, what she would do to communicate to a guy that she was interested. And.

Dan:
or even somebody she works with. So if she doesn't want to say, if she just don't be like, hey, what did you do? Just some of the girls that you worked with. You know what I'm saying?

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
So, because maybe some of it's a little bit embarrassing or not really that she doesn't really want to talk about. So I

Charles:
Oh

Dan:
would

Charles:
no.

Dan:
ask her, hey, what are some of the strategies

Charles:
I'm not

Dan:
you've

Charles:
worried

Dan:
seen

Charles:
about

Dan:
used?

Charles:
that.

Dan:
Yeah. So I

Charles:
Neither

Dan:
would

Charles:
is she.

Dan:
ask her, hey, what are some of the strategies you've seen used?

Charles:
Yeah. And again, fortunately, because her and I were, we were close friends before we started dating. And so we know a lot about each other's dating history and stuff like that. So I don't think either one of us will be uncomfortable with talking about, you know, back when you were single and, you know, even when we were friends and you were occasionally dating guys that were your customers, what went into,

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
like, how did that work out successfully for the guy versus, you know, how did it work out when a guy was just, you know, you were being friendly and he thought you were interested, you know, what did those two things look

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
like? So I will, I will, I will definitely ask her about that and come, come to the next episode with some, with some details. Because I think that it'll be,

Dan:
Awesome.

Charles:
I'll enjoy hearing about it and I'll enjoy talking about it with you next time too. In fact,

Dan:
Definitely.

Charles:
you and I will talk about it perhaps tonight at when we go to Boca this evening, although no, she's, she's working all day today, so I won't be able to talk to her until you and I see each other. But then, yeah, certainly if we have breakfast tomorrow or something, I'll ask her about it. That'll be fun. I can't wait to,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
to, my personal relationship for some insights for our podcast. That should be fun.

Dan:
That's

Charles:
Okay,

Dan:
great.

Charles:
so let's stop for now. We're going to next week, we're going to get into body language and how to notice and understand things like eye contact, smiling when a woman preens herself, when she touches your arm while you're talking, and what all these sort of what the levels of escalation are, and how sure you can be that it means that she's interested based on the kind of body language that she's putting off. So I think this will be a pretty pretty good chapter that all of us, even those of us who are not into approaching women cold, can still get some stuff out of. All

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
right, anything

Dan:
I am

Charles:
else?

Dan:
disappointed he did not go over the, yeah, I'm a little disappointed he did not go over what a smiley face on your check means. So, um,

Charles:
Alright, well,

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
when we write our book,

Dan:
I think

Charles:
we can

Dan:
that's

Charles:
put it

Dan:
maybe

Charles:
in there.

Dan:
this next book.

Charles:
Alright,

Dan:
Sounds

Charles:
cool,

Dan:
good.

Charles:
then. I'll talk to you next time, alright?

Dan:
All right, man, have a good one. Talk to you later,

Charles:
Take it easy,

Dan:
bye.

Charles:
bye.