If you're a human (and odds are good that you are), then you are communicating VOLUMES through your body language--far more than through your words.
In this episode, we'll discuss the rights and wrongs of knowing and using body language to communicate romantic attraction. You'll recognize a theme from previous episodes: express yourself with confidence--even when you aren't speaking.
And, at the end, we might tell you to dump/breakup with your friends.
If you're a human (and odds are good that you are), then you are communicating VOLUMES through your body language--far more than through your words.
In this episode, we'll discuss the rights and wrongs of knowing and using body language to communicate romantic attraction. You'll recognize a theme from previous episodes: express yourself with confidence--even when you aren't speaking.
And, at the end, we might tell you to dump/breakup with your friends.
Dan:
Good afternoon, Charles, how are you?
Charles:
I'm well Dan, thanks, how are you?
Dan:
also well.
Charles:
How was your first night back in your own bed?
Dan:
not as comfortable and relaxing as I would have liked, but, um, I
Charles:
No.
Dan:
got, it took me forever to get a ride back home from the airport. Um, Uber was a nightmare. It, it,
Charles:
Whoa, sorry
Dan:
no
Charles:
to hear that.
Dan:
normally, yeah, normally it's, it's not so bad, but I guess last night, I just hit it at the wrong time. It was like going to be two and a half times the rate and I
Charles:
Oof.
Dan:
was, yeah. And the rates normally like 50 bucks. I was like, that's not going to happen. So, I switched over to Lyft, had to update some stuff. I was able to get Lyft a lot quicker, a lot less expensive. So a little shout out to Lyft, who is not a sponsor of the podcast, but it was
Charles:
Not yet.
Dan:
fairly painless to get that, not yet, right? Fairly painless to get a Lyft. So I got home a little bit later than I'd like, and then just trying to settle in and get everything kind of squared away. It was a little bit later than I'd like. So yeah, it wasn't the ideal situation. But yeah, luckily I took a buffer day today. And so meaning I'm not,
Charles:
Oh nice.
Dan:
I'm cleaning up work, but my customers don't know I'm in the office. So I'm kind of preparing
Charles:
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
for the week
Charles:
Nice.
Dan:
so I can hit the ground running tomorrow, unpacking, doing a lot of maintenance and organizing. And since I learned that concept, it's been extremely helpful for me on any kind of trip. So that's gone well.
Charles:
Yeah, I did have the thought at one point yesterday, either when we were in the airport in Austin or on the plane. I was like, Oh, why don't Dan and I just ride together in my car? And then I realized, Oh, we live in opposite directions. Now we, it used to be where I could drop you off at your place and it was right on the way to where I lived. But now,
Dan:
That would have been nice.
Charles:
now I go
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
out of the south exit of the airport. I got out of the south exit. You go out of the north exit.
Dan:
Yeah, would
Charles:
Yeah,
Dan:
have been
Charles:
my,
Dan:
nice last
Charles:
uh,
Dan:
night.
Charles:
Yeah, it took it took me a spell to, uh, to get back to, um, the shuttle bus and then the shuttle bus drive to the, the cheapest of the cheap parking lots. And then, uh, getting out of the parking lot and getting home, it, uh, it was a little later than I would have liked as well, but once I got there, it was, it was nice to be in my own bed where the only snoring I had to deal with was my own and, uh, not, uh, not any, not any strangers sleeping three feet away from me.
Dan:
Well, hey, look, you being in that hostel kind of worked out with some of the connections that you made and some of the opportunities we have for the next keto conference. So I'm pretty excited about that.
Charles:
Yeah. Yeah. So we, uh, we had a good time out there. I certainly did. I, I ate a lot of, uh, a lot of smoked meats and a fair, fair number of eggs while we were out there, tried to, uh, other than the food tour we did yesterday, I, I stuck to my diet pretty well and, uh, yeah, feeling, feeling good about all the stuff that I picked up and stuff that I learned about, you know, the living in the health coaching arena as well as, uh, the ketogenic diet and lifestyle. And also I just love, I love going to conferences like that and learning new things and meeting new people. It's a lot of fun for me.
Dan:
Yeah, no, me as well. And this one actually turned out to be a lot more valuable than I thought it was going to be. This was kind of like a last minute decision that I was like, yeah,
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
I'll join you. I, you know, I used to do some keto and, and, uh, and then I found out as the conference got closer, that there was a lot more people and information that was going to be presented there that I was. very interested in and I was able to rebuild a lot of old lost connections and for both locally as well as being a primal health coach also was able to refine a little bit more of my offering for habit coaching and had a awesome time with you between, between the ghost tour and the food tour and making a couple of connections with some, some vendors with some really great products that I tried out. carnivore bar and, you know, pluck seasoning and yeah. And so KetoBrainz was great as well. And yeah, got a couple of free massages from some of the exhibitionists out there. Exhibitors, not exhibitionists. That would have been a different kind of massage. And then, you know, and then meeting our new podcast coach as well, I think it was, I couldn't ask for much more, honestly.
Charles:
Yeah. Yeah. It was a good time for sure. All right. Well, let's, uh, let's get into, uh, I was listening to the podcast that released today and noticed that, uh, I in particular definitely have a tendency to get a little indulgent when it comes to the, uh, intros to our episodes and I go a little longer than, uh, I mean, I go the perfect length of time for what I want to hear, but you know,
Dan:
Hehehehehehe
Charles:
I've got to accept that. I like hearing my own voice more than other people might. So yeah, let's try to get into the material. So what we talked about in our last episode was, you know, the body language and the nonverbal cues that we should look out for, that, you know, men who are interested in women should look out for to kind of gauge interest and availability and things like that. And in this week's episode, what we're going to talk a little bit about is the... the nonverbal communication and the body language that we should be implementing, uh, to communicate that, you know, we're available or we're interested or we're, you know, wanting to take a relationship to the next level. And, uh, I was, he opens up this chapter, um, talking about what I would call the superior ability of a, of a woman to judge, um, what's going on in a situation by nonverbal communication. They did a study at Harvard where women watched a silent movie, essentially, of a couple interacting with each other and then asked those women to, well, actually they studied, they had both men and women completely exercise. What they found was that 87% of the time the women were able to tell without hearing anything exactly what was going on between the two. the two people, uh, where men's score was down around 42% of the time. So less than half the time, um, were the male participants in this study, uh, as good as the female participants at being able to just read the nonverbal cues to know what was going on between a man and a woman in a, uh, in a situation. So your, your ability to communicate your intentions, your desires, your attitude through nonverbal communication is going to be pretty much essential if your goal is to meet new people, make new connections, and possibly find new dating partners.
Dan:
Yeah, that's crazy that it's more than twice. Women have more, they scored twice as high as a guy in
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
terms of being aware of what was going on. What I'd be curious to know and it would be is, did the men just guess wrong or did a lot of them just have no idea whatsoever what was going on
Charles:
Oh yeah.
Dan:
versus
Charles:
Yeah, that would be interesting.
Dan:
where women were more often able to, the 13% that were off, Like how off were they? You know, were they, I mean, were they like really close and they were just slightly off of them compared to the men who got it wrong. I, you know, and what I've noticed is, you know, whenever I've been with women and out, like out in public, you know, a lot of times I'll kind of lean on them and say, Hey, listen, if we're ever in a situation or if we're in a, you know, if we go to a crowded bar or where, you know, and, and, or, you know, we're in some sort of you know, public place and you feel unsafe for whatever reason, please let me know because I picked up on that just before even reading this book, I realized, you know, women are really great at reading body language. I, you know, I had, um, one girlfriend who was able to actually tell me the conversations that were happening at, for multiple people at the same time, you know, in a restaurant, what they were talking about without, you know, without
Charles:
Hmm.
Dan:
hearing them and It was like a parlor trick. I was like, oh, what's going on over here? And it was very entertaining because I was just like,
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
yeah, it was amazing to me that she was able to do that. And sometimes you'd be out too late or really laid out at night and sometimes fights can start to happen and a lot of times there'd be little things that are happening that I wasn't aware of. but she'd be able to pick up on and go, you know what, the vibe is changing in here, let's hightail it out of here. And so that's been my experience.
Charles:
Yeah, I've, I've experienced something similar with my girlfriend where we've been out with either friends or, or acquaintances or strangers or whatever. And her, you know, she's, she's pretty introverted. And so often her, uh, her social battery will get drained and she'll run out of juice and then I'll just keep going, you know, because when, when I get into a certain mode, you know, it's kind of hard to shut me down. And I'll keep with the joking and the storytelling and all that stuff. And then, you know, later on that night, she'll tell me, like, I was, I was ready to go like an hour before. You caught on that I was ready to go. And you know, part of it is, you know, because I feel like sometimes I feel like I'm on stage and I just get tunnel vision and don't really pay attention to what's going on around me. But the other thing is, yeah, sometimes I just, I don't pick up on, on other people's, you know, okay, I'm, I'm kind of over this, I'm getting tired. I'm ready to. leave unless I unless somebody you know holds me by both shoulders and says it's time to go I'm ready to leave I I just don't pick up on it.
Dan:
Sure, yeah, I mean, I fall into that trap all the time.
Charles:
Yeah. So, uh, sometimes, you know, because that can be a little awkward too. You know, if you're in a, uh, in a mixed relationship or one of you is an introvert and one of you is an extrovert, sometimes you may want to work out some kind of a code because it's tough for the introvert to say, excuse me, everybody. I've had enough of all of you. I want to leave right now. You know, that's, that's kind of awkward. So
Dan:
Right.
Charles:
it might be better to work out some sort of a, some sort of a code where, where your introverted partner could say, okay, enough's enough. Let's, let's wrap this up and get going.
Dan:
A safe word.
Charles:
Exactly, exactly. Pineapple. Um, yeah. So, uh, another interesting thing from this chapter is that, uh, men seem to get it wrong when, uh, in this piggybacks on some of the stuff from last week to men seem to get it wrong when they're trying to gauge a woman's interest and what her interest level is from nonverbal communication, uh, in two ways. If a man is kind of relationship minded, he tends to underestimate. a woman's interest level. However, if a man is out for a very short-term romantic relationship, like a one-night stand, like I want to meet somebody and hook up tonight, then the man tends to overestimate a woman's level of attraction. And I kind of got to think that alcohol may play a role in that because typically people who are looking to go out and meet a partner for that night, that usually happens in places where alcohol is flowing fairly freely.
Dan:
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lower the inhibitions and
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
kind of grease the wheels,
Charles:
So, um, yeah, there's, and there's not really anything to do about that
Dan:
so to speak.
Charles:
information, except be aware of it. You know, if you're, if you're looking, if you're out there looking to meet people to date and have relationships with, there's a good chance that women could be putting off signals that you're just not catching that she might be interested in you asking her out or, uh, being, you know, being direct and figuring out how to communicate your interest in her in a, in a direct way. Uh, that may be happening. You just don't know that she's, that she's interested. And on the other hand, you know, if you're going out with your friends, just trying to find somebody to hook up with. And, and again, you, you do, you hit the bottle a little bit. When you do that, you may be overestimating. Uh, you, you might, you might end up just bothering and boring a woman who really does not have that kind of interest in you. which, you know, one of the, one of the most important skills I, I'm a big fan of, uh, the prof G podcast. That's a Scott Galloway. He, uh, he's been a very frequent guest on bill Mars show, uh, real time recently. And, uh, you know, one of the, one of the things that he talks about, it's, it's a shame that we don't teach in school is teaching young men, Hey, here's how you honestly and directly communicate your interest in a woman in a way that makes her feel safe and comfortable. Because. I mean, you know, that is certainly nothing I ever was taught by any older
Dan:
Mm. Mm.
Charles:
man in my life when I was growing up. It's like, Hey, Oh, you like this girl? Here's how you communicate that you like this girl in a way that's not going to make her get, feel weirded out and creeped out.
Dan:
Yeah, I mean, in all fairness, that's that's a little bit of, uh, I think these days a rare skill set to have. That's not something I think a lot of people are able to understand. Never mind teach.
Charles:
No, I agree. Yeah. I mean, and there's reasons, there's legitimate reasons for that. I mean, I mean, it's, it doesn't feel good to put yourself on the line and, and say to someone, at least certainly not the first few times to say, Hey, I'm interested in you, I'd like to take you out on a date. And then they say, eh, I'm not so interested. No thanks. You know, that's, that's not fun to hear. And I don't know that it ever gets fun to hear, but it certainly gets less rough to hear the more you practice it.
Dan:
For sure, yeah, yeah. You know, and I think kinda keeping your feet on the ground and keeping yourself busy with a lot of other things in life, I think that definitely
Charles:
Yes.
Dan:
helps any type of rejection and not being super tied to one thing, whether it's a woman or anything else in life, is to have, I guess, as Glover talks about, a full cake of a life.
Charles:
Yeah, there's no single no, or no single quote unquote rejection that's going to ruin your life. Whether it's a job you want, a girl you want to go out with, a credit card that you've applied for.
Dan:
friendship.
Charles:
Just because, yeah, friendship. Just because someone says, no, I'm not interested, or I'm not interested right now, or no thanks, or piss off. Whatever they say to you. I mean, that one thing is not going to make or break your chances for... a happy life. And so, you know, if you can keep it in that context, I heard one person, very smart person, I don't remember who it was say that, uh, rejection is just one person's opinion and, and that's true. You know, it's just, it's just an opinion. Everybody's allowed to have opinions and it doesn't, it doesn't speak to, I mean, there are, there are people who could say, you know, I don't like chocolate. I don't like gold. I don't like diamonds just because somebody makes that choice that for them. They don't like that thing. It doesn't mean, okay, well, that thing must be worthless because one person says they don't like it. No, it's not. That's not how it works.
Dan:
it and keep in mind, you're not going to know all of the reasons why that person doesn't like it either. Right. Even, even if they volunteer some of it, that's not the whole picture. That's not, you know, the experience that they've had, you know, there, there have been, you know, probably other things that they've dealt with that they're not remembering or not communicating to you. So even if you were to get like a full explanation, you're still not going to know exactly why. So, um, don't, don't try to figure it out. All you're going to do is ruminate and, and drive yourself nuts.
Charles:
Yeah, and I mean, we, we know that that's true because you and I experienced that. Or sometimes we're not into something that a lot of our peers are into or think is good. And we're just not into it. I mean, I, there's a million comedians that are very popular and very funny. And for whatever reason, I'm just like, eh, I just don't get it. It's not my thing, you know? And, and sometimes we don't even know the reason that we're not into something.
Dan:
Mm-hmm.
Charles:
We're just not into something, or maybe we're not into it right now, but you know, a year down the road. I'll think, oh, that's something that I should get more into. I should learn more about that.
Dan:
Right. You know, and at the same time, you know, you're not, because you're not into that comedian, you're not dissuading anybody else. You're not going out there and going, well, you shouldn't like that. You should have these expectations that, you know, these other people shouldn't like that comedian because you don't. Right.
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
It's, it's, it's your preference and that's, you know, and you're fine with other people. Now, does it mean that you may not, you know, have as many things in common with that other person and may not want to Maybe, you know, maybe not spend quite as much time with other person, that's fine, absolutely, you know, but at the same time, it's, you know, you kind of let go of attachment to outcome that other people should feel exactly the same way you do.
Charles:
Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, so the, the other side of this, uh, this challenge of, of, of men not being able to understand that, uh, a woman may be interested in them is it happens the other direction too. Often a woman does not understand or doesn't pick up on the fact that a man is interested in, and that doesn't have to do with their difficulty perceiving it, it has to do with how much. We are often willing to go to these crazy lengths to keep it a secret that we're into a girl that we're into, which I have done myself when I was younger, you know, for whatever reason. Like, I guess it's to protect against rejection. You know, you don't, you don't want to let it out that, you know, yeah, I'm interested in her because then that gives her the chance to say, I'm not interested in you. And we can't have that.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been there too, for sure. You know, and, and it's, it definitely is uncomfortable putting yourself out there and making yourself vulnerable and being, and you know, potentially being rejected and, um, but you know, it hurts in the moment, but it's, it's, it's, it's quick. You know, it's, it's not something you're not going to die. And, um, it's, it's something that does get, that does get better with time for sure.
Charles:
Yeah. And I mean, I don't know any women that would say that they enjoy, you know, letting guys down hard or roughly, you know, when, I mean, usually, even if a
Dan:
And most of them don't.
Charles:
woman's not, yeah, no, even if, if a woman's not interested in you, she's, she's not going to try to break you down over it. She's going to be at least a little flattered and kind to you about it. And the, you know, the problem is the longer you put it off, You know, if, if, if you meet somebody and you hang out once and you're like, Hey, I'd like to get to know you better. You want to get a coffee, then the investment there is very low for both of you. And a yes or a no doesn't need to feel like the most important thing in the world. Where if that first time you hang out with her, you realize you're attracted to her, you like her, and then you pretend to be your friend for a year. And then you say something to her about going on a date.
Dan:
Hehehe
Charles:
But that's when it feels like, you know, if she says no, the whole world is going to break down.
Dan:
You know, and you're also setting yourself up for a disaster because she's, she's probably going to pick it up that you do like her if it's been a year where you pretending to be a friend. And the other thing you got to worry about here is that we're pretending you
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
are now, I don't know if you're really a trustworthy kind of reliable person that she'd want to be with and attracted to. If you are basically hiding your intentions and not being true to yourself. then you're not a known quantity at that point. I feel like you're kind of taking yourself out of the reliable, safe environment and person that you want to create for this potential relationship.
Charles:
Yeah, that's, that's true. It, uh, I mean, it, it can, you know, those, those feelings can. Seem spontaneously arise, but yeah, if, if you're, if you're playing, if you're running a con or playing a game or, or, you know, hatching a scheme where you're like, Oh, I'll, I'll do this and then she'll like me, you know, it's that whole giving to get, or you I'll, I'll give, I'll give friendship, but in exchange, at some point down the line, I expect AB and C. then yeah, even, even if she's one of these women who, you know, does not
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
properly estimate your level of interest, there's a good chance she'll know. She'll know something's going on and something, something doesn't feel exactly the way it should feel. You know what I mean?
Dan:
Right. And then you're building what you are building with that woman over the course of a year is a friendship. And then for you to change things is very, you know, that's a big ask because especially if it's a friendship where, you know, there is some value that you both get out of this, you know, a lot of times you hear the little cliche, oh, you're going to ruin the friendship, but you know, you're basically saying, you know, this is a known quantity that we're both. you know, getting value out of. And now you're basically asking to change that into something that's kind of unknown at that point. And then, you know, so there's definitely some risks involved in that. So not that it can't happen, but I think it's rare for something like that to be able to transition from a friendship to something more.
Charles:
Yeah, especially, you know, when, and, and, and this is a topic that we, we talk about fairly frequently because, you know, I, I don't know many men who haven't done, who haven't played this game at some point in their lives,
Dan:
Oh, guilty for sure.
Charles:
whether it was, you know, they're yeah, they're teen years, college, after college, whenever. Um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely something that.
Dan:
Last week, what are you talking about? HUEH!
Charles:
Again, every, everybody in my friend group and social circle has struggled with. And, uh, especially, especially the part where, you know, your, your act that you take on of, of, you know, just being a friend, uh, results in you, you know, never acknowledging your level of attraction for this person, not going out there and meeting and going on dates with other girls and you know, Like if I have somebody who's actually my friend, then I'm going to talk to that friend about other dates that I'm going on and romantic things. But you know, sometimes as guys, we, we fixate on this girl that's in our life that we have a crush on, want to be with. And then we don't bother trying to meet anybody else, trying to go on any dates, trying to interact with anybody else. We just get this, this tunnel vision and you know, she, she's not having that problem. She's going on dates, she's getting boyfriends, she's meeting people and then we're just sitting there, you know, cracking the pencil in half, you know, making a, making a mean face while we're watching it go on.
Dan:
That's a great visual.
Charles:
Yeah. And so, so yeah, that again, this, this isn't directly what we're talking about this week, but I, I've just, I've wasted months in my life. Uh, when I was younger, uh, just being, being infatuated with somebody and not wanting to say anything to them to the point where I waited so long that I got weird. And then, you know, eventually maybe I would. I would tell them, but I would still kind of do it in some sort of a, a weird indirect way that would protect me from being rejected, at least in some measure. And so, I mean, there's,
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
there's nothing that comes across more weak and attractive than, you know, not, not willing to be open and direct with your feelings and communicating a, Hey, this is the way I feel, take it or leave it. It's who I am. If you choose to take it, great. If you choose to leave it, I'll be okay anyway. I mean, that's,
Dan:
Yep.
Charles:
That's the attitude that people want to be around, whether it's romantic or professional or whatever.
Dan:
Yeah, you know, and I think if you,
Charles:
So.
Dan:
if you turn it around and you put the shoe on the other foot, if you, if a girl, you know, think about a girl was friendly towards you. Um, and, and she, you know, she basically made herself a little bit vulnerable and said, Hey, look, I, you know, I, I'd like to take this further. I, you know, I, I'd like to go out. you know, let's see what happens. That's flattering. She's not insulting you. And the same thing holds true if you were to do that to somebody else, right?
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
To a woman, it's a flattering thing. You're, you're being, you know, it's, that's a, that's a very, you know, Hey, I, you know, I really like you. So they're going to be kind, you know, and that's something I didn't know when I was younger or didn't think about or couldn't put myself in that perspective when I was younger that, you know,
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
by, by doing that, They're going to be, even if they're not interested, they're going to be nice about it. And if they're not, then you shouldn't be going out with them anyway, cause that's, that's not a good quality to have. You say, you know, you dodged a bullet.
Charles:
Yeah, exactly. If you get, if you get, if you get, if you get, if you get rejection from somebody who's, who's being rude and mocking to you, then you just dodged a bullet. Them saying no is the best thing that could have happened to you.
Dan:
100%.
Charles:
Cause I mean, you know, what's a much worst case scenario is you, you get a yes from that kind of person and only find out well down the line after you've been dating for a while or married or have kids with, oh, this is, this is a cruel person who enjoys making other people feel bad.
Dan:
Yeah, exactly.
Charles:
Yeah, that's that's much better to learn that before date number one than than down the line. Um, okay. So let's see the, uh, another statistic that he cites is that, uh, when it comes to, uh, getting a message across and communicating with someone, uh, nonverbal communication is 12 to 13 times more effective at delivering a message, particularly a message about feelings than verbal communication. So Uh, what you do and how you do it is, is often more important than what you say or what words you pick to say, right? Um, you know, he gets into the idea of open body language and expansive body language, and this is something I learned about a while ago. Maybe it was the first time I read this book. Maybe it was before that, but, um, you know, when you're, when you're standing around a, a party, a bar, a restaurant, you know, whatever, uh, it, it It takes some conscious thinking on my part, especially if I'm in a place that I'm not super comfortable to not fold my arms or even if I'm not fully my arms, not hold my beverage, like right in front of my, my heart, you know, like hold it right in front of my chest. It's much better to have your arms down by your side and hold your drink down
Dan:
Mmm.
Charles:
there by your side than it is to use it as a way to protect yourself.
Dan:
Yeah, I mean, it does. It's interesting. It's just, it's subtle little body language, but it's basically where you have your hand in front of your chest. It's like a shield, right? And you're then in a defensive type of
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
stature. And, and if, and if nothing else, you're going to limit subconsciously your, your ability to connect with other people that they may want to come over men or women might want to come over and engage with you and talk to you. And we, you know, we just came from two conferences where, you know, basically it was, it was meeting strangers a lot of it a lot of the time and, and the, the easier it is to approach someone through body language and everything else, you know, the more likely you are to have a good connection with them and, and yeah, you know, having, having your hands in front of you, you're protecting yourself. You're telling people, Hey, I'm in defensive. Don't, don't come towards me. And you're then almost
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
subconsciously making them feel like they are going to attack you if you do approach them. So it's already a confrontation and that's all just from holding your drink in front of your chest.
Charles:
Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's other things we can do as far as, you know, folding, folding our arms as a big one, um, slouching, you know,
Dan:
Hmm
Charles:
having our shoulders kind of down instead of our shoulders up. Um, yeah, there's, there are lots of things that we, that we do that, uh, um, I mean, keeping your chin up is, is a good one for, for displaying openness. Cause you're, you're exposing, you know, one of the most you know, vital parts and sensitive parts of your body. If you can keep your head up instead of keep your head down, you can sort of show off your throat and say, hey, I'm not afraid that you're gonna get me.
Dan:
Yeah, what's a speaking of body language, I saw a Ted talk from one of Simon Sinek and he was talking about, I think it was, I don't know if it was networking or storytelling or I think it was storytelling and mentioned your hand position when you are telling a story or talking to somebody. Um, when you have your hands out in front, it's a lot more, people are a lot more receptive. And I think they also said that the most watched Ted talks where the speakers had their hands out in front. And the theory behind that was in ancestral times when we lived in tribes, when a new person would approach from another tribe would approach your tribe, the people who came with their hands out in front were considered safe and friendly people. Whereas if you approach a tribe
Charles:
Hmm.
Dan:
with your hands behind your back, you are considered dangerous because they didn't know if you were carrying a weapon,
Charles:
Yeah. Right.
Dan:
some sort of rock or hammer or whatever that might be. And if you think about it, when somebody's standing and you see them and their hands are behind their back, you're like, well, what is that person up to, right? If there's some questions that pop into the mind, whereas their hands out in front, it is a little bit more relaxed feeling that I get at least when I see that. when somebody's talking with their hands or approaches me and their hands are out in front, you can see them. And that also might play into the previous chapter where we were talking about women's body language, where if you're meeting a woman and the wrists are up and the hands are out, that's a little bit more of an open position and they're open to engaging, whereas if their wrists are pointed down towards the table, that's more of a defensive type of posture, right?
Charles:
Yeah. And I mean, any of our, any of our listeners that are involved in law enforcement will certainly agree with all that because I mean, you know,
Dan:
Mmm
Charles:
what's, what's the first thing a police officer wants that they want to see some open empty hands and uh, so yeah, guys, yeah, if you're, if you're spending time
Dan:
Oh, great point.
Charles:
out there and you're not deliberately trying to close your own self off from interactions with other people, don't, don't do this, you know, And for those who are just listening, don't, uh, don't fold your arms in front of you. Don't stick your hands in your pockets. Don't, don't hold one, one hand in the other hand behind your back. I mean, try to, try to have your hands by your sides or up while you're, you know, while you're gesturing so that, uh, people can see what's going on with your hands and they'll, they'll feel like, uh, you're a bit more accessible and, and not a threat, not a, not a, not a mystery in a bad way, not a danger. You know, you can sort of put your cards on the table.
Dan:
Yeah. Um, what's interesting was that you mentioned the hands in the pockets. I think it also goes to show a little bit of preparing your mind and your state
Charles:
Mm.
Dan:
of mind as you are meeting people. Um, sometimes I know I don't know what to do with my hands. And, uh, at the, actually at the conference at Keto con, I realized, um, sometimes I would stand there with my hands in my pockets and I was trying to talk to people and it just, there was some sort of like feeling that I had internally, like I was kind of closing myself off a little bit. So what I did was I just kind of stuck my thumbs in my pockets and kept my hands out, my fingers out in front or like my belt loops and I kind of kept my fingers out in front. And I felt a little bit more open at that point. Again, I could just be kind of, you know,
Charles:
Hmm.
Dan:
this could be a little bit of placebo effect and maybe I'm thinking about this a little bit more now as we're talking about it, but. I felt more comfortable connecting with people by just resting my hands and just having my thumbs in my pockets and having most of my hand out on front. Kind of like cowboys do a little bit. And maybe it's because we were in Austin,
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
we were at barbecue, who knows?
Charles:
Yee-haw. Yeah.
Dan:
But it's something to think about.
Charles:
Yeah. So we can't really talk about, uh, you know, body language and nonverbal communication without hitting what I think is the most important, which is eye contact and the ability to, you know, meet someone's gaze and hold that gaze.
Dan:
Hmm.
Charles:
And I mean, that is honestly the way that most, most interactions with a person you don't know are going to start through, you know, the, the sort of dance that you guys do with each other without even thinking about it often through your eye contact and sort of. setting up the, laying the foundation for an interaction with the way that you look at each other and the way that you behave with your eyes. And yeah, that's a huge part of it. And the toughest thing for me and for, I believe, a lot of guys is holding that eye contact with another person, particularly a woman, specifically a very pretty girl that you might be interested in, holding that eye contact long enough. that she sees that you're looking at her and then not looking away immediately because that is at its core, that is predatory behavior. When you feel, when you're looking at something and then the thing you're looking at catches you looking and you immediately look away, that just, that screams predator to other mammals. And it's behavior that if you wanna have good interactions with people that you don't already know, learning how to not do that is going to be huge. Whether you look to the side, you look down, you look whatever, the only way to really make this work is to hold eye contact with someone until they notice and then when they notice, you gotta give them a nod or a smile. You gotta do something that says, yeah, you just saw me looking at you and I'm okay with that.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not an easy thing to do.
Charles:
No, no, there's, there's something, there's something in us that, uh, that, that definitely works against that strategy that there's, there's a voice in your head that says, Oh, this person just caught you looking, you better look away. And I don't know exactly where that comes from, but, uh, I think we all, we all definitely deal with that challenge.
Dan:
Yeah, you know, it could be one of those things where it could be. you're not prepared necessarily to engage with that person. And maybe that's a concern.
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
Now you've then opened up the opportunity and introduced a situation where now there's gonna be some additional interaction. And maybe subconsciously you weren't ready for that.
Charles:
Yeah, that's true. That's possible. Yeah, I mean, it could also be social programming and, you know, I mean, I think you and I live in a culture and have for some time where men who boldly approach women, ask them out, ask for their number. I mean, I was taught as a kid that the only guys that do that are creeps. You know, the only guys that do that are players, players and womanizers.
Dan:
Yeah, me too.
Charles:
that would say, Hey, I saw you from across the coffee shop and I really like to get to know you. Can I have your number? Like that was a creepy thing. And that at its surface, there's nothing wrong with that conversation that I just said, Hey, I noticed you from across the coffee shop. I'd like to get to know you. Can I have your number? There is nothing wrong with that interaction as I just stated it whatsoever. But there's still a part of me that even hears myself saying those words. It's like, Ooh, I could never do that.
Dan:
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the times when we heard like that was, it was something wrong that somebody did, or it was creepy, or it was from somebody who was overreacting to the situation and expressed it verbally and that, and we overheard that, right? We may not have thought that one way or the other, but that's part of that programming that, that we may have had. And it was somebody that may have had some other issues going along, going along with that. For example, Maybe it was one of her girlfriends who, you know, wished she was getting hit on and was a little bit jealous and over, you know, overstated the fact that, you know, he was a jerk for doing this. Or maybe it was a guy, you know, who liked that girl and just, he didn't have the balls to go and do it. And so now he was a little bit jealous of the fact that he was able, the other guy was able to do that. And he expressed that verbally. And we've been just, may have been just in the perimeter. you know, to kind of overhear their reaction and then start to start to hear, oh, wow, hey, you know, versus all the other people around who may not have had a problem with it, but they didn't speak up. And therefore, we didn't get programmed in the other direction saying, hey, that was okay, or that was really cool, or oh, wow, look at that. Rarely did you hear, you know, oh, that was
Charles:
Right.
Dan:
impressive that that guy did that. Like, you know, maybe once in a while at our age now, but as kids, that didn't happen. No.
Charles:
Yeah. Or, or, you know, let's, let's even, let's, let's give the, the gal telling the story a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt, you know, maybe it was like that scenario that we did a few chapters ago where it's like, okay, this girl, this girl knows he's been matching up his time at the coffee shop with hers for the last three weeks and kind of staring at her and, and trying to, trying to look at her while in a way that she didn't notice, but she did notice.
Dan:
Mmm.
Charles:
And then, you know, finally, after a long time, he came over and said the exact thing that I said, and she's like, Oh, this guy's been, this guy's been creeping on me for the last three weeks and now he's going to ask me out. No thanks. Um, you know, it could be, it could be something like that, or it could be, like it could be the guy was, the guy was profoundly unattractive.
Dan:
Right.
Charles:
The guy didn't invest any time or effort into his appearance, into his hygiene, into his style, into any of that stuff. And you know, very often the difference between. a guy who's considered to be smooth and a guy who's considered to be a creep is how attractive he is. And you know, as we've said this, this whole time we've been working on this book, it's not attractive as far as he won the genetic lottery. It's attractive as far as, you know, what has he invested in making sell making himself an attractive man? And if the answer is zero and then he's still, you know, after, after some period of behavior that was seen as a little creepy, he finally came over and asked the girl out. Yeah, it's possible she could be like, Oh, no, I'm not interested.
Dan:
Mm-hmm
Charles:
We don't know. We don't know what went into that.
Dan:
Right, no, great point.
Charles:
But generally speaking, if a guy is well put together and has invested in his first impression and he comes over and just says, hey, I noticed you, I'd like to get to know you better, can I have your number? It's hard to imagine that story turns into, what a creepy guy.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I, I
Charles:
But, you know, growing up, that's not the message we got.
Dan:
No, absolutely not, absolutely not. And a lot of times we didn't think through some of the minutia here is that, you know, the guy may have had, you know, may have had a great cake of a life to, you know, to add value to her life and just felt confident in that. And it was not, this guy is asking for something and just being kind of a greedy, you know, manipulative type of person who is just, you know, trying to take something from a woman or ask something of her rather than, you know, that she, you know, that he has a fun and wonderful life going on and that he has things to share with her that she's going to enjoy and that, you know, she's, she's, you know, potentially lucky to have met this guy as well. And it's not like a one-sided type of, uh, interaction here, you know, And I think that kind of speaks to what you just said about this guy who's really not doing much for himself And if you don't do much for yourself, you're not gonna have much to give to anybody else, right?
Charles:
Yeah. Um, yeah. So there, there was a, uh, again, there's some more data in this, uh, in this area that he cites in the book where, um, through another study, uh, women, uh, categorized men who were able to master the art of eye contact and what does master? I mean, obviously looking away too quickly, is a bad thing and you know, staring too long and not not doing anything else other than just, you know, staring at somebody too long. That's a problem too. There is a balance that you have to find. And men who figured out what that balance was, were judged to be more intelligent, more confident and more attractive. So figuring out and look, you can go on YouTube. There are plenty of videos of people trying to explain and teach and coach you up on, you know, what is the right amount of eye contact that you should engage in to to put across that attractiveness, that confidence, that intelligence. And so it is a skill that can be learned in practice, just like anything else. And it's, it's funny. One of my, you know, Sam Harris, one of my favorite guys to, uh, podcasts to listen to and favorite public intellectuals. He taught, he told a story on Joe Rogan's podcast when he was in his twenties, he decided he was going to do an experiment where he would just meet people's gaze and not look away and see what happened. And he said, uh, it was very, very quickly. You could tell. basically who the psychopaths were in a, in a given area and who, who was also always constantly playing a power game with their eye contact where
Dan:
Mmm.
Charles:
they like, Oh, you're not going to look away. I'm not going to look away either. And he said, it almost turned into fights a couple of times because there are, there are some people that are out there that are playing an eye contact game where they will not look away no matter what, until the point where if you don't look away, then they'll come over and they'll, they'll instigate something with you to find out what your problem is. And I just thought that's interesting.
Dan:
Yeah, you know, yeah, you know, that's, it is interesting. It happened to me a couple of years ago. Well, oh my God, it's been 15 years now, I think,
Charles:
I do that too.
Dan:
when I was still in New Jersey. I was, I was at the gym. I was, I was at the gym and I was looking for a specific dumbbell. I was like looking all over the place for it, you know, and I, you know, so I'm scanning, scanning, scanning, didn't see anything and then, you know, turn away, did, did. my workout and then afterwards I look up and the guy's like standing like right next to me goes, I saw you staring at me. What's going on? And like, what's up? Like, like ready to pick a fight. And I'm like, uh, and he, and I, I, I,
Charles:
Wow.
Dan:
I did notice he was over where I was looking for the dumbbells. And I was like, no, man, I was just looking for the 35. What are you? That's all, you know, but that, that goes to show, yeah, some people are just out looking and I didn't make, I don't even remember making eye contact with the guy, you know,
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
but I had just been scanning for a while. So yeah, people are, so if you're gonna run that social experiment, better have some training.
Charles:
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I would never just decide, you know, especially, um, you know, cause I'm, I'm not interested, you know, if I'm out walking around the mall, that's one of the places that I do enjoy. Uh, you know, I need to get my steps in for all the stupid challenges that I'm participating in, but I also like to people watch. And I also like to practice my eye contact. So, um, and, and you and I've talked about that. There's kinda, there's kinda three levels of eye contact to practice, uh, as far as difficulty level one, is people who are paid to be at the mall or wherever you're shopping, uh, practice your eye contact with them because they're there, they're there, their work. It's, it's their job to be nice to their customers and you can, you can practice, you know, looking them in the eye and saying hello or just, you know, having some sort of a nice greeting or asking them a question about the store that they're working in, whatever. That's, that's level one. Level two is your fellow civilians who are at the mall, just walking around doing their shopping practice, you know, holding eye contact with them. And then level three would be you know, the kind of woman that you would or person that you would normally be interested in you'd be attracted to level three is trying to hold eye contact with them because that's the hardest one. Right. And uh, so if, if that's something that you are interested in getting better at,
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
like I said, there's, there's a lot of guys who are experts and gals that are experts in eye contact with videos on YouTube, feel free to watch them or just listen to us and, and try, try those three different levels of eye contact. Next time you go to a shopping mall. And just try to make contact with people. And then when they notice, don't look away, just give them a smile or give them a nod and then move on to the next person. Uh, with guys in particular, uh, as soon as they notice that I'm looking in their eyes, because you know, I'm not interested in meeting guys at the, picking up guys at the mall, that's, that's not, that's not where my interests lie.
Dan:
Where, where do you like to pick up guys Charles?
Charles:
Uh, I give them a, I give them a nod. Usually youth hostels in various cities are
Dan:
Such a snob, none at the mall. Mall guys are good enough for me.
Charles:
various. various youth hostels around the continental United States. Um, no, I just, when, when, when I meet, when I, when I meet the gaze of a, of another fella, then I usually just give a quick nod and then, you know, turn my, turn my gaze somewhere. I look at something else and a boy said gaze a lot just then.
Dan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Charles:
Wow. Um, My field of vision, when I meet another fellow's field of vision or view, I give them a quick
Dan:
Oh, there you go.
Charles:
nod and then I keep on going.
Dan:
Yeah. Um, and you know, that's the thing is when you do that and, or you smile, um, and if you, you know, if you're doing it with whoever, you have a nod, a smile, you're making their day. Like you're acknowledging them. You're, you're sending some good vibes over them. I mean, every time I've done that, I've always gotten another smile in return. And you're going to feel good too, cause most people will acknowledge you back, give you a nod or give you a smile back. And so it's, you know, you're putting a little energy out there more often than not. They'll, they'll, you know, they'll do the same back. Um, another way that you could actually scale this down, I thought, I just thought of now, um, when I go running or if you go, like when you go walking, I don't know, I, if you pass anybody on your walks or your trails, when I go running out on the, on the trail here, uh, a lot of times there are other people riding a bike, walking, whatever, coming the opposite direction, give them a little, a little wave or a wave and a smile as you're going right by. You know, they have sunglasses on but and then sometimes they'll just give like a little wave back whatever and You know, that's another way of just getting more comfortable interacting with people becoming a little bit more social And I think that could actually lead up to you being more comfortable Making that eye contact when you're just walking around. It's a little bit of a you know It's a little bit slower or standing there at a cashier Checking something out But just a little quick wave as you're as you're walking by running by somebody or biking by somebody that that might be another way to go
Charles:
Yeah. And if, if you are looking to meet people, I mean, certainly if, uh, if you see a girl that you're attracted to, you know, at a coffee shop, at a grocery store, at a shopping mall, whatever, and you make eye contact with her, you smile, she smiles back to you. That is that that's all the invitation you're going to get to say, hi, I'm Charles, hi, I'm Dan, whatever. I mean, that is, that is, that is all she's going to do to give you the opportunity to get to know her. So, you know, be, be ready for that. And, uh, if, if that's not what you're looking for, then, you know, you give the
Dan:
Mm-hmm.
Charles:
smile, you get the smile, then you just keep going on your way. And that's that. I did want to say, uh, one thing that I've, I've heard works for people who are very shy and have a lot of issues with the, with the eye contact thing is there are videos on YouTube where it's just a person staring at their camera and you can just put them on your tablet, your phone, your computer, whatever, and you just practice looking.
Dan:
Oh.
Charles:
Looking them in the eye, just on your computer. And there is absolutely no, there's no investment. There's no risk. There's no chance of rejection. You can just get used to on your computer, staring someone in the eyes for lengthy periods of time. And it will make it a little bit easier when you're in public to do that same thing.
Dan:
You know, and now that you mentioned it, why not on the next Zoom meeting that you're on, whoever's speaking, you look at them, look at their video as they're talking, look at them directly in the eye instead of,
Charles:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dan:
you know, all over the place or whatever you're doing and keep that focused. That also might be a nice little painless way to get started.
Charles:
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, definitely don't underestimate the value of eye contact and, uh, you know, don't underestimate how many opportunities and chances you have to practice it with, without any real, any real risk. Um, so, uh, that, you know, when you put those two together, the body language, the eye contact, it really, it speaks to the idea that it is, it is confident in natural movement that is what is going to, um, make you look accessible and open to interacting with people. And so there's no way to get it, to get it truly confident because women in particular will notice if you're, if you're practicing for the first time that you, you know, you've never done this before, you're leaving the house for the first time and you're going to practice that first time you're going to look like somebody who's practicing. And so, you know, keep that in mind. It's not going to feel natural. It's not going to look natural. The first time you do it, it's going to take some reps. which we were just talking about with our podcast coach. Yeah, the first time you try something new, you're not going to look like a natural. You're going to look like somebody who's trying something new for the first time. And that's okay. But the 12th time you do it, the hundredth time you do it, the thousandth time you do it, you're not going to look like somebody who's practicing anymore.
Dan:
Right? Yeah. I got to put in the reps and, um, you know, competence builds confidence, right? So become competent in making the eye contact and that only comes with experience and, uh, just, just understand that it's worth it. It's worth it. Once it gets to the part of you where it is just something that you naturally do. Um, and it, you know, you, you'll kind of chuckle looking back at yourself, you know, when you're, you're doing all the funny things to, to get competent. But it's a part of the process. And it's, you know, most people understand that and are okay with that and you won't be judged for it.
Charles:
Yeah. And, and look, if you're a guy who has a decent set of friends around you, tell them that this is something that you're working on. You want to, you want your body language to get better. You want your eye contact to get better. And you know, there's a good chance again, if your friends aren't doofuses and if they are, you should get new friends. But if your friends are cool and your friends are supportive, tell them that these are some things you're working on. And what they will probably say is I need to work on that too. And then boom, you've got a little accountability group where you guys can can help each other get better at these things.
Dan:
And it's not just with talking to the opposite sex, right? It's for business and so many things in life
Charles:
Sure, yeah.
Dan:
and meeting the parents of the girl that you're dating,
Charles:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dan:
whatever, making that good impression on people. It's just part of being a good human being.
Charles:
Yeah, we talk, I mean, we talk all the time about a firm handshake and, you know, there, there are ways that people do that, right. And there are ways that people do it wrong. There are guys that have a very weak handshake and there are guys who grab your hand too tight and it's like, what's this guy trying to prove, you know? And
Dan:
I actually ran into that this weekend,
Charles:
Oh did ya?
Dan:
or this last weekend with that guy that I met online when I was waiting for you.
Charles:
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
You know, he was a local guy. He'd been to Q2Con a few times and he was super excited about being there, whatever.
Charles:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dan:
And I don't know if he did that to you, but he like crushed my hand. And I'm like, you don't need to do that. You can do a firm handshake without proving anything. You know, and it was just, it was weird.
Charles:
Yeah.
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
Yeah, no, I've definitely, I've met plenty of guys who, who think that, you know, doing the hand crusher is going to signal something, but really all it signals is social ineptitude and not not understanding, you know, how, and it, and it is, you know, I mean, look, I don't want to say that it's worse than a weekend shake there, they're both not good. And there is. And again, you know, have supportive friends to say, Hey, I'm not sure that my handshake is, is up to where it needs to be. Can we practice a little bit? Tell me, tell me what feels like a firm grip versus that's too weak. That's too strong. And again, guys, if you don't have friends that you can have these conversations with, you know, get, get on whatever the friend's version of Bumble is or, or go try a new club, start running, start do something to get out there and meet better people. If, if the only If you have to be perfect around your guy friends all the time, or they're just going to make fun of you and you're going to be the target for that night, then screw, they can screw off. Go, go find some new friends.
Dan:
Yeah. And one of the, uh, one of the speakers was talking about, you know, you are the product really of, of the people you surround yourself by, right?
Charles:
Yeah, the average five. Yeah, absolutely.
Dan:
And if you look at your group, the average five, and so if you look around and, you know, these, these five people are not something or have something that you respect, aspire to be, you know, it's going to be, can, can you, you know, Can you achieve great things? Probably, is it gonna be a lot more difficult than if you had people who were supporting you? And yeah, sure, yeah. And people that you could look up to and connect with on multiple levels. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot easier if you could find people like you.
Charles:
Yeah, I have known men in my life where, um, you know, I've sort of been introduced to their circle of friends and really all they, all they did was, you know, get, I don't want to say drunk every night after work, but certainly get more intoxicated than, than I was ever comfortable doing on a, on a week night and they would, you know, bitch about their jobs, they'd complain about their wives, they, you know, and it's like, guys, it's, it's It's no, it's not a mystery. The fact that all five of you get together and piss and moan about your jobs and about your wives. It's like you're, you're finding this self-selecting group of people that are dissatisfied with their careers and dissatisfied with their family lives and you're feeding off each other. And so if somebody like me comes into this group and I love my job and I love my wife, I'm not really going to want to hang out with you if all you do is bitch and moan about your station life and how you're not happy with it. I'll, I'll self select my way out of your, out of your circle. And, uh, you guys can have it and you know what, if it's working for you, keep it up, but I'm not interested.
Dan:
Yep.
Charles:
So yeah, this, this turned into what from a attractive body language to, uh, you know, audit the quality of your friendships because it's, there's, there's nothing good that will come from having a group of guys that, you know, is lazy. They're lazy. They complain all the time. They, they don't want to hear that you're trying to improve yourself. If, if you get pushed back on, Hey, I'm trying to work on my career. I'm trying to work on my marriage. I'm trying to. You know, work on my social skills. If, if you bring up something like that to your group of friends and all you get is ridicule and, and teased over it. All right. Well, you know, then you got to decide. Do you want to, do you want to make yourself into a better man or do you want to hang on to this group of friends?
Dan:
Yeah, here's one better. Go send me an email, Dan at mindfullymasculine.com and let me know what you're working on. And I'm happy to offer you some, at least support remotely over email once in a while. Um, you know, and, and uh, go back and forth and let me know what you're working on. And I, you know, I'm, I'm not going to, I'm not going to volunteer Charles for that because this is my bright idea I just thought of, but I I'm happy to do it. And uh, you know, secretly I'll ask Charles for some advice as well. So, uh, even,
Charles:
Yeah. And if you want to reach out to me, my, my, my email address is also Dan at
Dan:
Even if he doesn't want to. He will. Yeah.
Charles:
mindfullymasculine.com. So send, send me an email and I might pretend to be Dan when I reply, but that's just a thing that I enjoy doing. So yeah, go ahead. Give it a shot.
Dan:
No, seriously guys. Yeah. Feel, feel free. And ladies too. I know we've got a few female listeners as well. You know, if you're working on something, you know, where you feel, you don't feel like, you know, your friends are supporting you in any way happy to happy to workshop some stuff with you and over email and, and that would be, you know, be, I definitely learn anytime somebody's going through something new. I learned from that as well. So it would be, it would be a benefit to me and I'd be happy to connect. So, Feel free.
Charles:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm, I am open to anybody emailing me about stuff that they got going on because I'd like to learn about your situation. I'd like to learn about who's out there listening to our podcast and, uh, you
Dan:
Yeah.
Charles:
know, Dan, Dan is single. I'm not so, you know, ladies, you can still email, you know, don't, don't expect me to be too sweet and romantic. Cause I already got a girlfriend where Dan, Dan will be charming no matter who emails him. All right guys. So I think that's, uh, yeah, I, I, again, the, the, the thing to,
Dan:
Fair enough.
Charles:
to think about when it comes to the way you use your body while you're interacting with people is just be open. I mean, having an open mindset and your, your body language will follow. And so that, that would be the biggest thing that I would, I would say is, is B be open to new experiences, be open to new conversations, be open to new friendships or professional relationships or, or, or dating relationships, whatever your situation, you know, allows. And, uh, Just be open for those things to happen to you and your body language will follow. And if that's too much, then practice, practice, practice, and you'll get better at it.
Dan:
Yeah, and if you're taking this on and looking for some really small ways to get started, again, reach out to us and we're happy to work with you with your particular situation.
Charles:
Cool. All right. Awesome, Dan. Thank you. I appreciate your time today as always, and we'll talk to you next time.
Dan:
All right, take care. Bye bye.
Charles:
Bye.