Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

If You Want Women to Like You, Should You Act “Broody” or Act Happy?

June 16, 2023 Episode 85
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
If You Want Women to Like You, Should You Act “Broody” or Act Happy?
Show Notes Transcript

OK, we are post-business trip, post-COVID, post-moving day, and back to the podcast!

In this episode we'll talk about what kind of attitude women often find attractive in men, and why the absolute worst mood/attitude is always the fake one you put-on to please/attract/manipulate others.

Don't read books (or listen to podcasts--even this one) to learn how to build a fake persona.

Rule #1: Be your best
Rule #2: Be yourself--and don't skip Rule #1!
 

Support the show

Dan:
Good morning, Charles. Take two.

Charles:
Good morning, Dan. How you doing?

Dan:
I'm well, I'm well. Yeah. Take two. Cause I was getting into good, good podcast material with you and it took me a couple of minutes too long to realize, Hey, we should probably get this on the podcast. So

Charles:
Nothing

Dan:
take

Charles:
lost.

Dan:
two. Let's, let's get back into it. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles:
Well, let's let's

Dan:
So

Charles:
start with

Dan:
I

Charles:
your

Dan:
was, I was asking you,

Charles:
let's start with now

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
let's start with

Dan:
okay.

Charles:
your

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
book with your boring weekend in comparison to mine. What'd you get up to?

Dan:
So I changed things up for me this weekend in terms of my mindset, my routine. Usually I like to go to the beach and relax and do brunch and hang out with friends and stuff like that on the weekends.

Charles:
Sure.

Dan:
I really have been postponing and neglecting and not putting the final touches on my habit coaching program. And so I decided this weekend I am working. I'm going to treat it like a weekday. I'm going to get up and, you know, as if I'm, I'm doing, you know, like a typical nine to five routine, uh, with working so that I can prioritize putting together and, and really, you know, I, I turned my phone off, um, for a while it was, that was very uncomfortable to do, but

Charles:
Sure.

Dan:
it really helped me focus, it really helped me focus on getting stuff done and. Also going in with the mindset that, you know, uh, the beginning of doing the work is going to be a little bit more challenging. It's going to take at least, you know, a half hour for my brain really sinks into doing this task. Uh, I've read that it's sometimes the fourth, the task switching. I mean, I've heard anywhere from 15 to 25 minutes that our brain

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
requires

Charles:
me too.

Dan:
to actually fully engage in a new task. And, uh, I felt like that was a case. I was great. I took, uh, you know, I would work for an hour and as soon as I felt myself slowing down, which was right about like 50 minutes, uh, I would get up, take a 20 minute break, walk around the block, all the things that, you know, I don't do consistently enough. I was able to practice this weekend. And I really felt like, you know, um, one, holy crap, there's not enough time in the day because for me to operate efficiently, because you know, working for 50 minutes and then taking a 20 minute break, you know, and you start at like eight, nine AM. you really, you're only getting like three or four like decent blocks of work done in that

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
for the day before your brain starts to really, I won't say deteriorate, but get really tired. So, uh, one thing that I found was, which was kind of cool was I have a bunch of mechanical tasks I needed to do. I need to put away some groceries and I need to put away some boxes from Amazon, uh, needed to do some cleaning and I would sometimes take those 20 minutes in between to do those physical tasks. So got my, my eyes off the computer screen, away from my phone. And I was actually able to kind of double up on work and productivity. I was able to do some physical stuff along with the mental tasks and still feel recharged and refreshed to be able to go back to the mental stuff and put together a program. So for me, it was a really productive weekend.

Charles:
Good.

Dan:
And yeah, so I was happy about that.

Charles:
Yeah, when you,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
uh, when you, when you said on the group text with, uh, with Kurt and Richard that you, that you had to work this weekend, I was like, Oh no, he must be doing either, uh, an email migration went off the rails or I was like, Oh, this, this probably sucks. I didn't say anything, but I'm glad, I'm glad you were working for yourself and not for, not for somebody else.

Dan:
it still worked right. And that was another thing I was like, am I lying? It's like, it's so weird

Charles:
Oh,

Dan:
because,

Charles:
no,

Dan:
because

Charles:
no, not

Dan:
it's

Charles:
at

Dan:
a relatively

Charles:
all.

Dan:
new career.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
No, I know, I know. But my brain was, that's not what I normally do for work, right? I'm not

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
normally,

Charles:
right.

Dan:
you know, but so again, a little bit of imposter syndrome coming in and stuff, but it felt good to do it. I'm going to do that at least once a month. And that allows

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
me to really, and I'm, you know, I'm gonna do it for the, for our podcasts. I'm going to do it for other things. where I'm saying, look, this weekend, you know, one weekend a month, I'm allowed to, you know, to do stuff for work, especially as we're building these businesses and not feel guilty about it, not feel like, oh, I have to take time off to do things, right? I'm gonna have three other weekends out of the month. So yeah, I'm excited about that. And yeah, I don't think we've talked since we, on the podcast about some of the new technology that we've acquired and

Charles:
Oh

Dan:
some

Charles:
yes.

Dan:
of the plans that we have for the podcast moving forward and you know That's something we need to give Charles all the credit for because he's definitely taking the lead on that So I just want to officially Appreciate Charles for really putting all the time and effort into you know, trying to make this podcast something fantastic So thanks

Charles:
Thank you. I've been doing quite a bit of window shopping on some edition this weekend. I went up to Chattanooga, Tennessee to do the Mammoth March as we were talking about before we started recording and completed it successfully. It took me, I want to say, eight hours and four minutes or something like that to do what ended up coming out to about 18. and a third miles or 18 and a half. Let me, I can tell you exactly cause I saved a screenshot. Let's see here. They had to cut the course a little bit short because of some flooding, I guess, that they had on the course. So I did 18.35

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
miles in eight hours and three minutes.

Dan:
How many steps did that come out to be? Do you have any idea?

Charles:
came out to 40, 45,000 I want to say. Hold on, I'm trying

Dan:
Wow.

Charles:
to find the. I thought I captured the step. Yeah, let me go back to my other app here. It's like, this is only a couple of days ago. Oh, for the whole day, I don't have the hike, but I didn't do a whole lot of walking before and after, but my day that day, Saturday, I finished at 48,528 steps, which is

Dan:
Congratulations, man. That's impressive.

Charles:
19.6 miles that I walked that day.

Dan:
Wow. Jeez.

Charles:
Yeah, and I did have a little bit of, it happened almost at the same time that it did when I did it last year, around mile number eight, started getting, when I walk long distances, I get a little bit of pain sort of at the top of my back, at the base of my neck. And

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
I don't know, it might be because I'm looking down a lot while I'm walking, which I had to

Dan:
that

Charles:
do a ton

Dan:
lines

Charles:
on,

Dan:
up.

Charles:
I had to do that a ton on this trail. because there were so many rocks and roots on the trail, I kept stubbing my toe on them. And so I started

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
looking down the whole time to watch where I was going. And the later it got in the day and the more tired my brain was, my body didn't feel too tired during the day. They had snacks that I took advantage of, bananas and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and some little fruit bars. but my brain was getting tired at the end of the day and I noticed I was picking my feet up a lot. It was probably my body tired too. I didn't feel tired,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
but I was picking my feet up less than I was and I was stepping on rocks and roots a lot more at the end of the day. And I'm a little worried I may lose a big toenail or two from all the times that I was walking into rocks and roots.

Dan:
Oh, wow.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
Well, I didn't

Charles:
I stubbed

Dan:
realize

Charles:
my

Dan:
it

Charles:
toe

Dan:
was, it was so,

Charles:
quite a bit.

Dan:
it was, yeah, you had so many little things to deal with. Yeah, I guess when I think of hiking for some reason, I, you know, I'm across the street on the Cross Seminole Trail here and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
it's paved, you know?

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And so

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
to me, that's a hike, right? You know, but I forget like a real hike, you're out in the woods and there's no, yeah, there's gonna be stuff to avoid. So. Wow, man.

Charles:
Yeah, there and there were a couple of stream crossings that I did where I was glad I was wearing my Merrill What's the model of the shoe that I wear I forget what they're called. Oh, the Merrill Nova to Gore Tex is my my trail running shoe that I wear on hike on most hikes. But I think I think this Yeah, the fact that their Gore Tex I was able to walk with a good portion of my foot in the water without without feeling any wetness on my socks or on my feet. So they, they did

Dan:
That's

Charles:
what

Dan:
huge.

Charles:
they're supposed to do,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
but I'm getting some, I'm getting some rips in them and I'm thinking I'm probably going to have to buy another pair and, and I didn't buy them that long ago. I got them around may of 2021. So they're only about two years old, but you know, a couple of 50, a couple of 20 mile hikes. And plus I've worn them to New York and gotten some 20 mile days up in New York city and stuff. Shoes just. Shoes just don't last as long as you'd like them to when you're really putting them through it. So

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
I'm about to, but I

Dan:
I

Charles:
like

Dan:
mean,

Charles:
them.

Dan:
if the sole is OK, have you ever messed with the waterproofing spray? You think that might be able to get a couple of more months or years out of it if you just sprayed

Charles:
Um,

Dan:
them down?

Charles:
I think I'm getting some rips in the, in the outer fabric. And so I, I

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
reached out to Merrill to say, Hey, do you guys have any kind of tape or repair service or anything like that? And they were like, Nope, not really. So, I mean, I could theoretically get some kind of waterproof tape and put it on there, but, um, you know, for $150 a pair to get two hard years out of them. I don't feel like that's. And I'm ready for a new color. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to complain

Dan:
I

Charles:
too

Dan:
got

Charles:
much

Dan:
it.

Charles:
that,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
uh, that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
they're wearing out, you know what I mean? They're, they're, they're doing well for me. They're, they're doing what they're supposed to do. Um, but man, I was real impressed by chat. Nuga. I stayed at a great, uh, hostel called the crash pad that, uh, had some of the nicest amenities that I've ever stayed at before they, um, they had. The shower was great. The bathrooms were great. The beds were super comfortable. I stayed in a lower bunk this time instead of an upper bunk. Usually I stay in an upper bunk, but this time. knowing how tired I was going to be. I was like, let me, and that's the thing. They let you pick the exact bed that you're going to stay in, which a lot of hostels don't do that. You just pick what size room you want to be in, and then you just get the

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
bed that they give you. But this place was real nice, and it was the downtown Chattanooga area is way different from what it was when I was a kid, and we would vacation there, and I'd vacation there with my parents. It's so much.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
like a lot of factories that they've turned into breweries or restaurants or bars. And it's just a really cool, and it's got that crisp mountain air, at least it did when I was there this

Dan:
nice.

Charles:
weekend. So, uh, I anticipate going back to Chattanooga, um, for maybe one of my solo weekend trips where I'm not, you know, where it's not very hiking centered and just sort of enjoying the downtown area there. It was really cool.

Dan:
Yeah, I've never been, but that sounds great.

Charles:
Yeah, it's about an hour and a half north of Atlanta. And then my hike was another hour and 10 minutes north of Chattanooga. So I did a lot of driving this weekend. And I had a rush to get back home last night at 6. Ariel and I had tickets to see Guardians of the Galaxy 3 at 6 at Disney Springs. And so I woke up around 5 o'clock in Chattanooga. And, uh, you know, my body was telling me, just relax, just take it easy. Just, you know, chill out for a while. Wait, you know, stay here till checkout and leave at 11.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But it was like, no, I got to get up. I got a shower. I got to, uh, I got to hit the road. And, uh, I did stop in, uh, Atlanta on the way back, um, stop at my favorite coffee shop, there's a, uh, a caribou coffee in Midtown Atlanta that I used to go to all the time when I lived

Dan:
Mmm

Charles:
and worked there. And, uh, I, I just couldn't stop myself from. from stopping by Caribou coffee for a cup of coffee. And then I parked my car at the garage at Piedmont Park and walked around Piedmont Park a little bit. So yesterday wasn't completely off of walking and getting steps in. Cause I

Dan:
Damn.

Charles:
just, when I go through Atlanta, I gotta go see the sites in Atlanta. That's one of my favorite cities. And Piedmont Park is probably my favorite city park in America. I really enjoy Piedmont Park. So I got to spend about an hour walking around there yesterday too. So it was a fun. It was a fun but busy weekend, a little grueling.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah. Sounds like you really squeezed some good stuff out of the weekend.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
That's great.

Charles:
that's what I try to do.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And then I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
also

Dan:
And

Charles:
spent

Dan:
you still,

Charles:
some time. Go ahead.

Dan:
you still made it, you still made it for the podcast this morning too. So that's impressive.

Charles:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And, uh, did, uh, did a fair amount of window shopping and watching videos on, uh, as you referenced our new equipment, we, we bought this new, uh, video switcher that, uh, we'll make it much easier for us to, to produce a video podcast that we could both be proud of it or at least happy with. And, uh, and, and I've been watching a lot of videos on how to set up your spare bedroom. as a full on podcast studio

Dan:
Perfect.

Charles:
and

Dan:
Great.

Charles:
also added a bunch of new stuff to my Amazon cart that we'll be able to use for that. And so yeah, we're talking about, we're going to be buying lighting and cameras and at least one new microphone and it's going to be exciting. I'm looking forward to making some progress on that.

Dan:
Excellent, yeah, I am too. I can't wait to see what we come up with.

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, same. So all right, let's, let's get into I did notice the as I was editing the most recent episode of our podcast, it really does feel like we've traded me talking about dancing for just me talking about my diet. So I'm going to take a week off of that. And we

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
can we can move into the content of the book. Oh, I will say, during during my, my hike, I did finish listening to What is it? Men's a man's guide to women. Is that what the

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
title of that book

Dan:
yep.

Charles:
is?

Dan:
Yep. Yep.

Charles:
God, what a great I've got a little bit of buyer's remorse that we're going that we're still going through atomic attraction because I feel like it just about every way that book by the Gottman's is a better book than this. It's so good.

Dan:
Right. I mean, but I feel like and that's fair. That's fair. But this book, they go into very specific things, especially like this last half of the book, where I feel like there's still value for people. There's still concepts in

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
here that, you know, the Gottmans didn't get into in their book. But they definitely have. And I feel like it's just kind of an enhancement. And yeah, it's a little bit better packaged and a little bit. I agree with a lot more of the concepts from from man's guide to women for sure than this one. But

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I think, I feel like there's, you know, so I would, I don't really have buyers remorse for going into this. I think this is, this is good stuff too.

Charles:
Yeah, part of that is coming from the chapter that we're about to do, where I feel like there's, there's a bit of confusion and a bit of horseshit in this chapter. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I didn't feel that way at all when I was listening to the, to the, to man's guide to women where the Gottman's, they didn't have anything in their book where I was like, oh, this sounds stupid or this sounds,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, kind of red pillie or Mano Sphere or anything like that. Where This chapter on eyes and smiles. There's some stuff in there that I'm just like, oh, come on. Give me a break.

Dan:
So I, yeah, you know, I did reread it this morning and I think I've got an interesting take on it. Well, not an interesting take, but I kind of was able to see where he was coming from a little bit and where it got a little bit, I think, confusing. And it

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
needs to, and he just, he didn't do a good job of explaining the difference of when it's okay to smile versus not. I feel like there could be some more that needs to be flushed out that we can talk about. Yeah, so.

Charles:
Okay. So yeah, let's, let's go ahead and jump into it. So the first thing that he says at the beginning that I completely agree with is

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
eye contact is super important. If you're able to make and hold eye contact with people in general, you're going to be perceived as both confident and competent. It's a great, it's sort of the best starting point of when you're trying to establish rapport with somebody, look them in the eye. Don't look away. Don't look at your feet. Don't, you know, don't, uh, don't be afraid to make eye contact and hold eye contact with somebody and don't stare at them like a psycho. Uh, when you see,

Dan:
So blink.

Charles:
when, when you hit, that's definitely part of it, definitely blink and, and when, when you both kind of realize that you're looking at each other's eyes, go ahead and smile because that that's the most important thing to not appear to be hostile. And whether you just turn up one corner of your lip or you raise an eyebrow or you, I mean, don't put on a serial killer smile where it's like, you're going like stupid crazy with it, but just grin

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
at the person. Give them

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
something that looks positive. And generally, I mean, I would say that if you, oops, sorry, the cat is making an appearance. If you look at someone, a woman in this case, You make eye contact with her, you smile at her, she smiles back. It can completely it can end there. That could be the end of the interaction. That's that's not a problem. But if it's someone you're attracted to and you would like to. Talk to her, introduce yourself, her smiling back at you when you smile at her is an invitation to do that. You're you're almost certainly not going to get more of an invitation than that. That's that's what

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
that means, that

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
if you were to say hello. or ask her a question, she's not going to be opposed to that. If she was going to be opposed to that, she wouldn't have smiled at you.

Dan:
Yeah, so I've got an interesting thought on that. Um, cause he, and he mentions this in the book that if you, if you're looking at a woman and you smile at her, she may not smile back because she may not have processed that might have surprised her. It doesn't mean she's not interested. If she doesn't smile back initially, that's, and I kind of agree with that because I've had, I've had people smile at me and it's kind of taken me back and, or I've been, you know, in, in my own world, and I catch the look for a second and then I don't smile back, I don't react immediately. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm not interested, but I just was in my own world. I wasn't even thinking about it. So what he says is if then she makes eye contact back with you, so she doesn't smile after you smile at her, if she then looks at you and smiles, that's an indicator of interest. If she never looks back, then maybe she really wasn't interested at that point. So I thought that was... That was interesting to not, you know, if she doesn't smile back, don't take offense to that. Don't be, you know, and the other, the other twist here I feel like is, which makes things a little bit difficult for me to kind of get my arms around is when anybody smiles at me, if I'm not in my own world, I'm just kind of, you know, my brain's not really doing much when I'm just getting from one place to the other. I have the natural human tendency to mimic and so I'll smile back, regardless of whether I'm interested in that person or not. And Tony Robbins talks about that mirroring effect that we talk about it and you can do it with speech in terms of your tone, the words that you're using, and that helps build rapport, but humans

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
tend to want to mirror the person that they're communicating with. So my... where it kind of gets a little bit confusing to me is, well, if she smiles back, is she just mirroring me because I smiled? And is she really interested or not? That's where

Charles:
Well,

Dan:
I'm getting a little confused, right?

Charles:
yeah. And I guess the question is interested in what? Because if, I mean, let's say, you know, you're walking in the mall and a gal smiles at you and you kind of reflexively just smile back at her.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I would still take that to mean, I mean, ask yourself and, you know, answer honestly. You wouldn't be opposed to her saying hello, introducing herself and having a brief conversation with her, right?

Dan:
Correct. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's probably fair. I mean, I think regardless of whoever smiles at me,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
they're basically communicating that they're friendly, right?

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And that they've got probably good intentions. My brain goes to that assumption. So that would allow me to open up, you know, to at least, yeah, communicate on some level with that person. So I guess, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean interest beyond that.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
it's being open at that point. So that's fair.

Charles:
And I would think that you're, I mean, the reaction that we all have as humans, you know, if somebody, you know, has open body language and smiles at you, then yes, there is a good chance that we're going to smile back even if we don't, you know, we're not looking for any additional interaction. But, you know, that said, if you're walking in the mall and some guy with a shaved head and a big swastika t-shirt gives you a nice warm smile, You're probably not going to smile back at him because you're not interested. You know, you're,

Dan:
I

Charles:
you're.

Dan:
might laugh, I don't know, I mean that's just, that's just a funny image to me, you know?

Charles:
If

Dan:
Because that's

Charles:
that,

Dan:
not

Charles:
if that,

Dan:
what you see in TV and movies, they don't

Charles:
that's

Dan:
have a

Charles:
right.

Dan:
shit-eating grin, right?

Charles:
Yes. And that, in that scenario, it's, uh, I do indoors looking down at your feet and just walking past them. Don't, don't worry about, uh, you know, any, yeah. So I'm just saying there's, I think when, when you do this, when you do smile back at somebody, I think your subconscious is probably running some calculations that you're not aware of that leads you to smile back to them. And I'm saying, you know, if, if somebody has a super offensive shirt on or, you know, somebody is clearly homeless and maybe a little crazy or something like that, I doubt that your body's reaction to smile back is going to be just as solid as if it was, you know, some guy or gal that you just don't happen to be super attracted to. I mean, you're gonna smile back at them because you would be okay with a one slightly higher level of interaction with them beyond the smile would still be okay with you. Where if it was somebody who, you know, you're... your instant evaluation of their appearance said, I would not be okay with any additional interaction with this person, then I think your body would probably short circuit that impulse that you might have to smile back. So that's what we're saying here, guys, is you make eye contact with her, you smile, she smiles back. It's not saying she wants to marry you. It's not saying she wants to go to bed with you. It's saying she's probably okay with you saying hello or hi, I'm Charles or whatever. And that could be the absolute extent of what she's okay with.

Dan:
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as long as you set your expectations, that's where it can end and you're okay with that. You're not attaching a different outcome to it. You're not expecting her to want to go on a date with you

Charles:
Right, exactly.

Dan:
or that she's sexually interested in you either.

Charles:
Right. Yeah. I would, uh, one thing I like to do is when I, when I go to visit other places, when I travel, um, I find that if I go for a walk fairly early in the morning, uh, and not like crack of dawn early, but earlier than most people would be up and walking to work or school or whatever. And the people who are out walking or either walking their dogs or they're walking because they like to go take a walk in the morning. Um, I, I try real hard to make eye contact with those people and say good morning to them. Because for whatever reason, good morning is so much easier than good afternoon or good evening. It's just like, Hey, we're both, we're both awake, we're both out and we have that in common. So I say good morning. And some people, I would say occasionally, I've never gotten hostile reactions. Some people don't say good morning back, but that's rare. For the most part, people say, say good morning and smile back at me. And,

Dan:
And

Charles:
and,

Dan:
yeah, and

Charles:
and

Dan:
that's

Charles:
that's

Dan:
about

Charles:
just

Dan:
them. That, you know,

Charles:
right. Yeah,

Dan:
they could

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
be preoccupied

Charles:
Yeah, I don't take

Dan:
with

Charles:
it.

Dan:
something.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, because they don't. That's interesting you mention that because every time I, yeah, you are 100% right. I totally agree with you. Good morning so much easier and less awkward than good afternoon and good evening. Every

Charles:
Yep.

Dan:
time I've said good evening, even like so sometimes when I go to the gym and, you know, at night or, you know, around the evening, sometimes I'll say, you know, have a good evening. And I feel like I'm fucking Dracula. When I say

Charles:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Dan:
that, like it's just, you know, it's just like, it's just so unnatural. And what's weird is, so, um, I spent a lot of my summers in Germany. I have family over there. And it was in a really small farm village in Bavaria and everybody knew each other. And there's just kind of one small little town center. And I would walk around and people would say in German, you know, good evening, good afternoon, good morning. you know, and, and a good night as, as we would pass each other. And that was just very common, you know? And so in my mindset was, yeah, when you pass somebody on the street, even if you don't know them, you, you would say, you know, you give them some sort of greeting, but

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
you're right. So most of the time it's, you know, it's like a higher wave, but the same thing in the gym, I find, maybe it's the nature of people who are mourning people. But

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
when I've, when I was going to the gym regularly in the mornings, that was a lot more social. People were chatting and talking, having big conversations. And

Charles:
Interesting.

Dan:
I mean, maybe it's because, you know, we just rested, we had breakfast, you know, and everybody has all of their motivation and willpower, you know, in terms of, you've got the big resource first thing in the morning and nothing's been depleted yet. Whereas in the evening, there's a lot less, I feel socializing and friendliness at the gym. And, you know, when I've gone walks outside as well, I feel like in the mornings, yeah, people tend to wave more, nod their head more often than, than, than in the evenings. Just a interesting

Charles:
I mean, yeah,

Dan:
observation.

Charles:
as, as a morning person, um, I would argue that's because morning people are better than evening people.

Dan:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Charles:
Um, but I'm willing to accept there may be some bias on my part about that. I am definitely more of a morning person after a certain, there, yeah, after a certain amount of a certain time at night, I don't, I don't want to be, I don't want to be driving. I don't want to be doing hardly anything. And so I, you know, certainly having conversations with people, meeting new people, no, thank you. I would much rather. care of that in the morning. Um but

Dan:
Yes, Dracula

Charles:
yeah

Dan:
was

Charles:
so

Dan:
not a morning person as we all know.

Charles:
exactly and look at him. That guy was a jerk.

Dan:
stuck

Charles:
Um

Dan:
to having

Charles:
okay

Dan:
to say

Charles:
so

Dan:
good evening. All right, go ahead.

Charles:
you know speaking of Dracula uh we get into this second part of this chapter where basically the author makes the the argument that uh men are more attractive when they are sort of dark and broody than when they are friendly and smiley.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And you know, I mean, let me start off by saying this. Whenever you're having an interaction with another person, especially a woman that you would like to date, whether you're thinking, she'll like me more if I smile, so I should smile now, or she'll like me more if I'm broody, so I should be broody now,

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
that is almost certainly going to be detected and make you seem like a creep. So if... If you're constantly evaluating your behavior when you're interacting with people, women especially, and you're thinking, you know, hmm, what would Dan or Charles say I should do right now? That's the way I should act so that I can get what I want out of this woman. Whether that is smiling or scowling or whatever that thing is that you think to yourself, ooh, I should do this and then she'll like me. That's the thing that's gonna make her not like you. So, I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
mean, I would...

Dan:
Well said.

Charles:
put authenticity at the top of the list here. Don't do things with your facial expressions or really anything else, because you're doing it based on what you wanna get out of somebody or what behavior, you know, if I do this, then they'll do this and then I'll get what I want. If you start going down that road, it's not going to get you what you want because people will be able to detect it because you're not gonna be that good. So.

Dan:
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. And that goes along the lines of being deceptive, right? If you are acting a certain way for a certain reason and it is not authentic to yourself, you are basically kind of putting on a show. You are hiding who you really are. And I think that's one of the big things. in terms of connecting with human beings is that we may not be able to consciously verbalize and know that you are and say and speak that you are being something that you are not or putting up some sort of facade in some way, but our subconscious and our instincts as human beings pick that up and it makes us feel uncomfortable and that those uncomfortable feelings then push us away from that person from from that connection. So you know, you said it well where it's really being authentic. And that means, you know, not to keep patting, Brene Brown on the back, but being vulnerable, right? It's,

Charles:
Yes, absolutely.

Dan:
it's, it's, it's having the courage because that also shows courage because you are

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
being your vulnerable, true self. And that, that, that courage by, by, by being vulnerable, it shows that you are confident in who you are as well. And that is attractive and that in and of itself is

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
attractive.

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
So

Charles:
that's.

Dan:
Same thing

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
with the eye contact, right? If you're not looking at somebody straight in the eyes, you're darting away or whatever, you're kind of hiding something or you're concerned about them seeing the windows into your soul through your eyes, right? And you are then acting in a way that is not.

Charles:
Yeah, and that's really, um, yeah, any, any level of interpersonal manipulation where you're trying to get someone to do the thing for you that you want them to do and look, we all, we all do it. And, um, myself included, not, not when I'm at my best, but when it, it always comes out of the same place, it comes out of fear and anxiety of, you know, anxiety as I have defined it. since we've been doing the podcast is this idea of what if things aren't going to be okay. And so when you're overcome with that feeling of what if things aren't going to be okay, then you can have this impulse to say, okay, well, I can make them okay by behaving this way because then it'll get this other person to behave this way and then I'll have my needs met. And

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
so, you know, any decision of, okay, well, If I smile at her, then she'll think I'm nice and she'll want to be with me. That is a big neon sign that says I'm anxious. I'm afraid. And also if I act dark and broody, then she'll think I'm mysterious and attractive. And then she'll want to be with me and then I'll be okay. Is also a big neon sign that says I've got fear. I've got anxiety. And you know, I'm not saying that if you suffer from anxiety, you know, nobody wants to be with you, but If you're leading with your anxiety, if you're leading with behavior that is built on your anxiety, it is likely not going to attract people, it is going to push them away.

Dan:
So that reminds me of the study that he cited in the book about men who were appearing broody versus smiling. The ones that were broody were rated as most attractive and the ones smiling were the ones least attractive by women. And so the problem with that is these were just pictures. This was not seeing all the other micro expressions and body movements and behaviors that we pick up as human beings when we meet somebody in person. And so that being said, those things were not taken into account. So the assumption was, when you're looking at a picture is this is who this person really is all of the time. So somebody who is broody, maybe they really are broody and maybe they are more attractive than somebody who's smiling. if you think that that person is smiling all the time and that person is broody all the time, but that is not reality. That is just looking at pictures. And so you're really, I don't feel like it's a really valid study because that's not how people behave and you have no idea what the authentic person is. So, you know, if that person, the broody person was actually somebody who's really happy and you met them in person, you'd be able to take, you'd be able to probably pick up at some point that that's not who they really are. they become a cause as inauthentic and then they're a lot less attractive. So I think on paper, maybe pure visual, that the study is valid, but not in reality.

Charles:
Yeah. And I would say, you know, there's this thing that has been said before about the kind of men or the models of men that women find attractive in things like fiction, where I think Jordan Peterson referenced it in one of his books. You know, vampires, werewolves, billionaires, pirates, and surgeons. You know, these are the

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
in fiction that women enjoy, especially like erotic fiction, these are the kinds of men that they're interested in, which, you know, there's a lot of broodiness in that list, just like there was in this study. But, you know, in my experience, when your girlfriend or your wife is exhausted and the cat or the dog vomits in the middle of the night and she asks you if you would go and take care of it for her, the last thing she's looking for is for you to be broody. You know, and so it's one thing if you're reading Twilight or something like that, then yes, it could be attractive that the, that the character is Broody. But I mean, you know, from your own perspective, Dan, do you, do you want, I mean, think about your college experience or, uh, you know, having business partners, you know, like, uh, your partner Dick or me, it's, it's like, is Broody something that you would put anywhere near the top of the list of somebody that you interact with on a regular basis?

Dan:
Well, no, I mean, that's not, you know, I think, I think part of the element with here with the whole, you know, broody is that he also mentions that, you know, if you've got a broody look, and then, you know, you kind of you give a smile. He does mention something that I do, I can see some value in where he says, if you're smiling at all the time at everybody, then you're kind of the law of supply and demand. If you're giving out your

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
smiles for

Charles:
sure.

Dan:
anything and everything, then really the value of your smile, when you do give it to somebody that you're interested in or somebody you care about, it's kind of diminished because you just hand those out like party favors, right? Versus, now again, I don't believe in holding back and being somebody who's not yourself, but. I can understand that where if you're selective with who you're giving your time, attention, and care, and love, and smiles to, I think they become inherently more valuable.

Charles:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think there is a risk of if you are, if you're smiling or even smiling and laughing constantly, especially in situations when you shouldn't be, people are not going to take you seriously. They're going to think that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
you don't take the world seriously and they're not going to take you seriously. And it's funny when I was on my hike yesterday, I was listening to a podcast. making sense, which is Sam Harris's podcast, which I listened to pretty much every episode. And he had a guy on there who specializes in, I believe the guy has a double degree in philosophy and physics. And they talked for like three and a half hours or something like that, all about the intersection of philosophy and physics. And it was an interesting conversation, but it was also a little difficult to listen to because this guy, his guest was one of these people who he would make a statement. not a joke mind you, but he would make a statement and then he would laugh at himself. Like what he just said was a, it's just a hallmark of a nervous speaker. I mean, there are people who when they're nervous, they'll say something and then they'll laugh at it. And it was hard for me to take him as seriously as, cause there were a few topics where he and Sam were disagreeing on stuff.

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
it's like, I automatically, I mean, I have a lot of respect for Sam Harris. I like the way that he thinks and the way that he communicates. So I'm, I'm biased to like his position anyway. But the fact that this guy was laughing in, at times when there was no joke, there was no reason to be laughing, but he was laughing anyway. It's like, okay, your position doesn't feel as real or as, or as thoughtful as the person you're debating against because you keep laughing at things that aren't jokes.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
It's like. Do you really believe the things you're saying or what's going on here?

Dan:
Right, yeah, or do you just, you're lacking social awareness, right? So, you know, some sort of social intelligence, some basic level of social interaction. And then now it's like, okay, what happened to you or, you know, what's going on in your life that's causing you to be this way? And unfortunately, with the halo effect, there can be a negative halo effect as well. Somebody says something

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
in

Charles:
absolutely.

Dan:
a way or behaves in a way and then everything else, I mean, happens with our politicians all the time, you know, and, and, you know, they say something in a way that you don't like. And all of a sudden it's just, yeah, they can't say anything that you, you know,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
even if you agree with it, it's because

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
it came out of

Charles:
absolutely.

Dan:
that person's

Charles:
Oh, absolutely.

Dan:
mouth. It doesn't, you

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
know, it doesn't matter. Right. Yeah. So

Charles:
So

Dan:
I got

Charles:
one of

Dan:
it.

Charles:
the things he says kind of at the end of this section that I do agree with is, you know, he draws this contrast between alpha males and nice guys, which again, we know both of those terms are pretty heavy on the baggage, but we'll roll with them for now without getting too into that. But basically he says an alpha male smiles because he has a reason to smile, not because he feels socially compelled to smile. And I agree with that 100%. I mean... you know, whether you want to call that alpha or just mentally stable or someone who's able to regulate their emotions or whatever. Um,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I would say the, the healthy, strong person behaves the way that they do because they have a reason to behave that way where the, um, the weak minded person, the person who's a people pleaser, the person who gives to get the nice guy, does the thing that he feels like he's supposed to do so that he'll get what he wants out of other people.

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
And again,

Dan:
Or like,

Charles:
I think,

Dan:
go ahead.

Charles:
go ahead.

Dan:
Sorry. I was going to say just like the example you gave on Sam Harris's podcast was, or it could be to self-soothe because something,

Charles:
True.

Dan:
you said emotionally stable, right? So that it could be

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
just doing that just to make themselves feel a little bit better. And in this chapter, he also talks about the difference between a guy who is a little bit more confident as, or a guy who is not as confident looking at a girl and approaching her and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
the guy who was a little bit more confident. you know, now that I'm thinking about it, you know, a lot of times, um, you know, when you stand around in public and you've got your arms crossed in front of you, or, uh, you're holding your drink in front of you. Um, a lot of times I, I never thought about it till now, but that's kind of self-soothing. It's making yourself feel comfortable.

Charles:
Oh, for

Dan:
And

Charles:
sure.

Dan:
so

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you're, you're very, you're very much communicating that you're uncomfortable, um, subconsciously. And then it's almost because it's on a subconscious level or it's not being spoken or verbalized, I feel like it comes across or it can come across as being disingenuous. And yeah, in a weird way, even though all it is is you could just be a little bit uncomfortable in a new crowd, at the same time, I feel like it can communicate trying to being something that you're not, just by being, unfortunately, it is a very primitive way of looking at it, I feel, but yeah, I feel like that's, I mean, I don't know the way around it other than hanging

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
a sign that says, I'm uncomfortable on my back, right? There's no way around that, unfortunately. So I feel like, yeah, maybe just practice until you feel comfortable, practice in those situations until you feel like you're a bit more comfortable and you don't need to. yourself with your drink or your hands.

Charles:
Yeah, or, um, you know, have a, have a custom shirt printed for you that says.

Dan:
Hehehehe

Charles:
I hate bars and clubs. And then, you know, wear that out when you go to a bar or club with your friends and the other introvert girls that also hate bars and clubs might be a little more open to dealing with you.

Dan:
I, you know, you make a joke, but I think we've got a little side hustle. Uh,

Charles:
Hehehehehehe

Dan:
so we put all, let's get a list of all of the possible, like insecurities that people go through. We'll put them on t-shirts

Charles:
Hehehehe

Dan:
and we'll start wearing them out, you know, um, you know, and, and, uh, see what kind of conversations it sparks up because you're basically, then you just, you just solve the problem. You then. allowed the person to become vulnerable by speaking their insecurity on their shirt. And I feel like people can connect with that too, right? People are like, hey, yeah, you know, I, yeah, I feel I, I don't, I hate bars and clubs too. Let's, let's go talk about this, right? We've got something in common.

Charles:
Yeah, unfortunately you, uh, I don't think you could wear that at Mathers because they don't, well, number one, I don't hate Mathers. I like Mathers because it's not, it doesn't feel very barry or clubby, but they don't allow a written graph. I don't think they allow any, any graphic, uh,

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
shirts there.

Dan:
interesting,

Charles:
Like if

Dan:
okay.

Charles:
you have words on your shirt, I don't

Dan:
Even

Charles:
think they.

Dan:
if we wore like a suit jacket over like a sport coat and you could just kind of see some of the, I don't know, maybe,

Charles:
interesting.

Dan:
who knows,

Charles:
Maybe.

Dan:
you

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
know?

Charles:
maybe under that circumstance. I don't know. But yeah, that's so yeah, I guess the bottom line is just don't just don't do things. Don't put on a show. Don't be performative. Don't don't do things because you read it in a book. I mean, certainly read books and use use the tools and the ideas of those books to become the kind of person that you want to be. but don't use them as an instruction manual for here's how I can pretend to be someone else so that people will like me. Because when you try to do that, you know, again, unless maybe if you're hanging out at a, at a nightclub at one in the morning, everybody's drunk. They, they won't notice, but then again, you'll also be way worse at trying to pull off this, uh, this performance anyway. So they probably will notice, but it's just, it, it's a, it's a dead end. So, so don't do

Dan:
I

Charles:
things.

Dan:
think when they're drunk, people just don't care, right? They're gonna

Charles:
Maybe

Dan:
notice, but they may not care

Charles:
that's true.

Dan:
as much.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
I feel like

Charles:
that's

Dan:
that's

Charles:
a good point.

Dan:
the element.

Charles:
Yeah, so, all right, so listen, yeah, my message is, if you're happy, smile. If you don't feel particularly happy, don't smile. But don't try to author some character that you're gonna try to portray so that women will like you because man, life's too short. I mean, maybe I think that was a good idea if I was 25, but I'm 45 and... If you're 25 and listening to this, let me spare you two decades of getting it wrong and just be yourself. Be the best version of yourself. Work extremely hard at being better than who you are today, but don't try to pretend to be something that you're not.

Dan:
Yeah, derive your confidence from the fact that you know you're working on yourself. Right? So don't expect yourself to be perfect

Charles:
Exactly.

Dan:
or to be, you know, like Ken well, or, or anybody else, you know, be the best version of yourself you can and derive your confidence knowing that you are, you're taking the time and effort and actions and to try and make yourself better. And, and you know, the right people are going to recognize that and appreciate that about you.

Charles:
Yeah, and speaking of that, one thing I'll close with is I shared that very short video with you this past week of Simon Sinek talking about

Dan:
Loved it. Yeah.

Charles:
in terms of not referring as much to mental health as referring to mental fitness and building your mental fitness. And I really like that. And I look forward to figuring out ways to integrate that into our messaging where we're not... just a men's mental health podcast, but we're a men's mental fitness podcast. And, um, it'll, it'll be a little, we'll have to figure out the best way to package that because at first when people hear it, they're going to be like, well, what does that mean exactly? And so we have to kind of be ready for, you know, with an explanation, but I, I definitely like the idea of thinking of it in terms of fitness, cause you know, with health, it's very black and white, either you're healthy or you're not healthy. where with fitness, it really does seem more like a spectrum or a journey that you undertake, not just a, I was sick and now I'm healthy. It's like, no, I'm, I'm constantly working on getting more and more fit because every time I get more fit, I feel more benefit from that fitness. And it makes, it pushes me to try to get to the next level.

Dan:
Yeah, I think the way he explained it in the video was with like physical health. Like you said, it's either you're healthier or not. So when I hear the term, I'm working on my physical health. I'm feeling like, OK, you're you're in a diseased state or you're sick and you need to fix

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
something right.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And versus physical fitness. To me, it's like, OK, you're probably already fit in some capacity, which we all are both mentally and physically. I feel that's just

Charles:
Sure,

Dan:
a little bit

Charles:
sure.

Dan:
more of an accurate description. It's just

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
about where you are along that journey. And so you're looking to, you've got, you recognize that you are at a certain state and you're just working to get better. You're not implying that you're, there's something wrong necessarily, right? Or that, yeah. So I'm going to abandon the term mental health and use mental fitness from now.

Charles:
Yeah, I think we should do that. And yeah, we just need to iron out the, you know, how do we communicate the entire idea that we have with that phrase in a way that people will know instantly what we're talking about. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, those kind of brainstorming sessions, I mean, other than, you know, buying new expensive equipment for the podcast, trying to figure out that messaging. Like we did that the other night at the Guys with Ties party where we were sitting there just trying to work on the. the messaging for our podcast. I love having those conversations. So I'm glad that Simon Sinek gave us something new to think

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
about and talk about.

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
And

Dan:
love

Charles:
he's

Dan:
it.

Charles:
great for that. All right. Great, Dan. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Let's go ahead and call it there. And then our next episode, we're going to talk a little bit about online dating. And maybe we'll also get a little bit into social media because those two are very closely related to each other. And we can share our own experiences for how we've used online dating or how we've used social media for a, I would say, a tool or a supplement to our online dating, which I certainly have. And I think there's some tips to

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
get into.

Dan:
this might be a whole season in and of itself for us, but

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
absolutely.

Dan:
okay, yeah. We'll try

Charles:
All right.

Dan:
to get it done

Charles:
Cool.

Dan:
in one. Alright,

Charles:
We will. I will speak with

Dan:
alright

Charles:
you later, Dan. Thanks. Bye.

Dan:
man, bye bye.