First Date Dos and Don'ts

OK, in this episode we talk about getting, planning, and executing a first date! We'll cover asking them out, days, times and venues, greetings, kissing good night, and other topics.

Transcript

Dan:
Hey, Charles, good afternoon.

Charles:
Good afternoon, Dan. How are you?

Dan:
I am well, I am well, I'm excited for, for these next couple of chapters in atomic attraction.

Charles:
Yeah, me too. These are a couple good ones and they're short, which I like. And hopefully we can get through them fairly quickly. I mean, not too quickly,

Dan:
So

Charles:
but

Dan:
yeah, what's gone well for you this week?

Charles:
well, today I had the radiator replaced in my car. I went to the normal drive through oil change place that I usually go to. And the guy

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
there was like, your radiator is done. You need a new radiator. And I was like, uh, okay. And, uh, I told you the other day, it's like, on the one hand, okay, you're not, you're not a ASE certified mechanic. You're just the guy who works at the oil change place. So I was a little skeptical, but on the other hand, the oil change place does not sell radiator replacements. So there was nothing in it for him to tell me something that wasn't true.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
So. I made an appointment at my usual guy all the way up in Deltona, which I've been going to him for years and years and years. And I went up there today and they said, yep, you need a new radiator. And it was $911, which is

Dan:
Oof.

Charles:
appropriate because that radiator did to my budget what the planes did to the towers.

Dan:
Ouch! Too soon!

Charles:
What's

Dan:
Too soon!

Charles:
oh, come on. It's been 22 years. Um, yeah, but it was, it could have been worse. There were other parts of the cooling system that they said might need replacing, but it was, I think just the radiator and the thermostat. And so that's done. And now. My, the little thermometer, little gauge in my, my dash is not going up into the letter H it's staying, staying at or below halfway, which is good. And my air conditioner is blowing cold all the time now, not just when I'm doing 80 miles an hour down I four. So

Dan:
and you've got your head out the window.

Charles:
yeah, you know, let me just say this. Well, I don't have to put my head out the window anymore because the AC is cold. So

Dan:
Nice.

Charles:
I talked to you. Months ago about how unfair it is. The difference between the effort it takes to eat 500 calories versus the effort it takes to burn 500 calories.

Dan:
Oh for sure that's a big difference.

Charles:
What the other thing that's not fair is the feeling you get when you spend money responsibly, like $900 on repairing the only tool you have to get you around the state of Florida for all the work you have to do. The feeling of

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
spending that money compared to blowing the money on a cruise or a flight to Hawaii. Like why,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
why does the irresponsible way to spend money feel so much better than the. Yeah, the irresponsible

Dan:
Well...

Charles:
feels better than the responsible. This sucks. I hate spending this much money on fixing my car.

Dan:
You really think being going on a vacation is irresponsible?

Charles:
The way

Dan:
I

Charles:
I

Dan:
disagree

Charles:
do it,

Dan:
with

Charles:
yes.

Dan:
that. I totally disagree with that. That reaps really

Charles:
Especially

Dan:
good rewards.

Charles:
when I book you on a whim, which I often do.

Dan:
I mean, all that is exciting, it's fun. Yeah, man, that, right. That's, I don't look at that as being irresponsible.

Charles:
But it's not as responsible certainly as fixing your car

Dan:
Hmm,

Charles:
or

Dan:
right. Well.

Charles:
repairing your repairing your house or something

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
like that. I mean.

Dan:
you know, I guess it comes back down to your why, right? You need to remember. All right. So if you what happens if you don't fix your car? Well, then you can't go to work. If you can't

Charles:
right?

Dan:
go to work, then you're not bringing in money. If you're not bringing in money, you can't go on vacations or do anything.

Charles:
or pay

Dan:
So,

Charles:
rent or yeah

Dan:
yeah. So,

Charles:
buy food

Dan:
right. All those little things in

Charles:
yeah

Dan:
life, right. So. Yeah, it doesn't make it exciting. But remembering a couple of rows down in terms of why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Keep asking yourself.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
And

Charles:
I'm definitely,

Dan:
I go ahead.

Charles:
yeah, I'm definitely a bit of a junkie when it comes to the dopamine of,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, buying a ticket or buying a trip or something, and then, and then putting it on my countdown app and looking forward to that trip taking place. It's a wonder I'm, it's a wonder I'm not a cocaine addict. I really, that anticipation of the next fun thing is,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
is a big part of my life and I really enjoy. that feeling of, okay, I've got it on the calendar. I've got a plan for it. I've got to work out the logistics. I've got to maybe buy a couple things on Amazon that'll make the trip even more fun. And just that. And now I've got a car that works. And I'm just gonna forget tomorrow that there was ever a problem with the car. It's just gonna work

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
now. And there's no dopamine there. There's no dopamine to tap into from

Dan:
No,

Charles:
just

Dan:
no,

Charles:
a car that just works.

Dan:
no. And unfortunately it does require a little bit more effort to see the value of that. So what it does do is it relieves the stress of, so now you don't need to think about it, right? Now it's not stressing you out and you get a little air conditioning. So that's kind of nice. But now you don't need to worry about it. And that allows you then to focus on the more important things for yourself, right? That allow you to be successful and earn that money and get the other fun things like those

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
trips, right? So

Charles:
Yeah, you're

Dan:
it's

Charles:
right.

Dan:
just, it's a necessary task or evil. I don't even wanna use the word evil, but just a necessary task that just get taken care of and then set it on autopilot, right? So you don't need to think about it anymore. The more things I can do with that in my life, the more I can focus on the fun stuff, right?

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I just wish in the moment that it felt great

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
instead of just feeling necessary, you know what I mean?

Dan:
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's interesting. It's, it's one of those where I've, and I think Glover talks about this is

Charles:
Thank

Dan:
anything

Charles:
you.

Dan:
that, um, I don't know if it was Glover or somebody else was talking about, um, the things that are like highly refined and down are typically the things we need to be most careful of in terms of causing addictions as well as,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you know, spikes in joy and, and that dopamine, right? So you concentrate down sex to, concentrated sex is porn, right? Concentrated,

Charles:
That's true

Dan:
concentrated, cocoa leaves, right? Is cocaine,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
like drugs, right? Everything's kind of super

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
concentrated,

Charles:
yeah, refine

Dan:
right?

Charles:
it down.

Dan:
Refine

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
it down so that really, and when you do that, right, then the spike is high and very quick and then comes back down again. Whereas, things that give you lasting joy and fulfillment, it's more of like a slow, it's a slow kind of curve and burn, right? And that's one of those things by having that air conditioning, you know, or working now and a functioning car in the warm, you know, when it's hot out, now, yeah, you're more comfortable, right? Maybe you present yourself in a little bit of a more energetic, better way to your client when you're getting out of a car from a long trip. And it's not a spike in happiness, but over time, it provides better results. And so unfortunately though, a lot of times in order to realize that, it takes a little effort and time to think through it to remind yourself, oh yeah, I am getting some good out of this. Right?

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I get that.

Charles:
Yeah, I think, I think my takeaway is that the people who are the most fulfilled are the ones who grow their own coca leaves and refine the cocaine themselves. Like

Dan:
I'm gonna go to bed.

Charles:
the, the holistic cocaine grower who goes

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
basically from farm to table with his cocaine, or he, he starts it, starts it as, you know, get some seeds and grows it all the way and then mixes it

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
with the. Was it the gasoline and the baby laxative or whatever, whatever they used to make cocaine? I don't know. And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
that it turns it in, you know, gets it from a sprout into the white powder pile

Dan:
Right?

Charles:
on his desk.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And then

Dan:
And then

Charles:
if

Dan:
it's

Charles:
you,

Dan:
all about the journey at that point, right?

Charles:
exactly,

Dan:
It's not, it's not so

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
much about the end result. It's about the

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
journey.

Charles:
Okay. All right, well, that's an important lesson for all of our listeners. You should definitely start raising your own cocaine from scratch and

Dan:
Yes.

Charles:
making it. And I'm sure there are recipes on the internet for how to do that. It's nothing.

Dan:
We'll put a link in the bottom of the show notes

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
on how to make your own cocaine.

Charles:
The, uh, the anarchist cookbook and the directions for how to, how to make your own cocaine. All

Dan:
So

Charles:
right.

Dan:
speaking of excitement, but a little bit on a slow level, some of our equipment came in for creating our podcast studio at

Charles:
I was

Dan:
my

Charles:
going

Dan:
house.

Charles:
to ask you

Dan:
So

Charles:
about that. Yeah.

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
What's what's arrived.

Dan:
we've got the lighting equipment and we've got the curtains. So

Charles:
Excellent.

Dan:
now we're waiting for the rods and the rug

Charles:
The rug and the desks.

Dan:
and the desks. Yeah,

Charles:
Cool.

Dan:
but it's showing up. And as I'm dropping it in the room, it's starting to look a little bit real. It's kind of cool. We did, you know, we need to take some befores. You need to take some before pictures, see what a mess the thing is right now so

Charles:
Yes. Yeah, Renata

Dan:
that when we're done.

Charles:
just mentioned that yesterday, Wednesday when I was talking to

Dan:
and maybe a couple of videos of us, you know, talking about it or whatever.

Charles:
her. Yeah.

Dan:
I think that would be great for, you know.

Charles:
That's a great idea. Feel free to snap a pick or two if you

Dan:
I will.

Charles:
want to. Um, since it's just down the, down the hall from you and next time, uh, yeah. Are we getting together on Tuesday night? Are you still around

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, yes I am.

Charles:
and available for that? Okay. Cool. So we'll, we'll start working with whatever we received at, uh, at that point. I mean, really, I guess the, I guess the carpet has to go down first before we can do much else. And that's

Dan:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right exactly unfortunately

Charles:
like the last thing that we're going to get, right. That's how it goes. Yeah, no big deal. But yeah, I've got some of the electronic equipment in my car that I'll

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
drop off on Tuesday. And yeah, I just ordered a couple more long cords for our phones so that our phones can be charging while they're being used as cameras

Dan:
Nice.

Charles:
and all that stuff. So yeah, I'm excited to set up, get that room going. We just put out, as I said in the notes from the last episode that we released yesterday. Yeah, yesterday. No, this morning. I think it was this morning at five. I'm playing a little bit of catch up. I missed my release schedule a little bit thanks to the, I had that one, two, three of out of town business trip followed by COVID followed by moving day. And so I got a little

Dan:
I hate when that happens.

Charles:
bit behind, I got a little behind releasing podcast episodes. So I put one out this morning. I'm going to put one out on Monday morning. And then I'll probably do one Wednesday or Thursday of next week and then we'll be all caught up with what people are used to.

Dan:
Sounds good.

Charles:
Yeah, so that'll be 85, 86 and 87 and our goal

Dan:
Wow.

Charles:
is to have number 100 be recorded at your

Dan:
Well, we're cutting it close here with this.

Charles:
studio. I think we'll be okay, but

Dan:
Based on it, yeah, I think we will need to, but yeah.

Charles:
yeah, it is going to be close.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
You're going back to New Jersey, right?

Dan:
I am next weekend, Thursday, Friday, Friday through Monday.

Charles:
Okay, just for the weekend?

Dan:
Yeah, I'll be back Monday evening.

Charles:
Okay, gotcha. All

Dan:
Yep. Yep.

Charles:
right. Well, that shouldn't interrupt our, uh, our schedule too, too much. Um, but yeah, I'm excited about seeing how things look with, uh, you know, the, I mean, we're, we're certainly only engaging in, I would say hobbyist or enthusiast level equipment, but I think,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
uh, I think we're going to get a pretty good result from redecorating that room of yours.

Dan:
Yeah, I'm excited to see what we can create.

Charles:
Um, do you have an ETA on the, uh, curtain rods? Do we know when they're going to get here?

Dan:
I'll tell you in a second. Let's see here.

Charles:
I'm trying to decide if I should bring my power screwdriver with me when I come see on Tuesday.

Dan:
I've got I've got a power screwdriver and drill and all

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
that stuff. Yeah, I got stuff we can hang. Yeah, yeah. No worries

Charles:
Okay, cool.

Dan:
there. So. Wednesday are the rods. Monday are the and the rug and then

Charles:
Darn.

Dan:
Monday other desks

Charles:
Okay, gotcha. So are you back in town the following Tuesday?

Dan:
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Charles:
Okay, so we're not gonna miss a Tuesday.

Dan:
No. No, we will not.

Charles:
Perfect, okay, that's cool. All right, great. I will, yeah, I'll plan on getting your place around six on both days, and that should be what we need.

Dan:
Sounds good.

Charles:
Yeah, it's exciting. I'm looking forward to, uh, to getting that done and being able to sit across the table from you instead of on a either zoom or zoom like application.

Dan:
Yeah, it should be interesting, a lot different having a conversation that's not over Zoom through headphones. I feel like it's gonna be a little bit different. So I'm curious to see how that goes.

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, we won't even have to wear headphones. It's gonna be crazy.

Dan:
Right, right, I was about to buy a backup pair because this one's tearing up and I'm like, wait a minute, I won't need this anymore. So, yeah, I'm excited. I think it's gonna look good.

Charles:
Yeah, I was looking

Dan:
And thank you for, you know, kind of.

Charles:
at.

Dan:
For pushing and and you know organizing this and taking the lead in terms of you know getting this done You know, you know, you're the one that's definitely driving a lot of this and so I appreciate the effort that you're putting in for this

Charles:
Oh, it's no problem. I love, I love researching and picking out stuff. And then, um,

Dan:
Good, good.

Charles:
I love buying it. And I love when you buy half of it, even more. It's great.

Dan:
least I can do.

Charles:
I get all the fun of, of researching and picking stuff out. And then I only have to buy half the things that I like. You

Dan:
Yeah, there you go.

Charles:
buy the other half. That's

Dan:
That's a great partnership.

Charles:
perfect. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to the, getting those desks and just, yeah, being able to sit across from each other and have a, have a conversation. I think it'll. It'll feel a lot more like, you know, the stuff you and I just sit there and get into when we're,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, hanging out at happy hour or going out to Mathers. And we, we

Dan:
or even at my dining room table.

Charles:
just start getting into stuff. Yeah, that's especially at your dining room table. Yeah, we've had some important conversations there. Alright, so let's talk about we're going to try to power through a few topics here. Setting dates.

Dan:
flaking, right?

Charles:
when flaking and having dates canceled on you. And let's see, what's the other one? Maybe we'll get into going no contact. All

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
right, so first of all, sending dates. It's rare that a male or a man and woman in a heterosexual relationship. In most cases, the path to that first date happens because the man is willing to express romantic interest and offer an invitation to a date. And then the woman accepts that invitation and they set a date and time and place, and they

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
both are there and then they have their first date. Right. So, um, if you are expecting that first date to happen through another path that doesn't involve you having to be the one to say. Hey, I would like to meet you for coffee, drink, dinner, movie, walk around the lake, whatever it is that you'd like to do. If you want that to happen, but you're unwilling to put yourself out to say, I would like to do this activity with you, then it is unlikely that date will ever happen. Right?

Dan:
Correct. Now.

Charles:
I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm not saying, you know, there are plenty of times when, when either women will make the initiative to ask a man out, or you can sort of kind of back, back end your way into a date with a girl. Those things

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
happen, but I would say they happen rarely compared to the man offering invitation to the woman accepting.

Dan:
Yep, yep, that's been my experience as well.

Charles:
So if you're interested in a woman and you'd like to go on a date with her, you should know that your best odds of making that date happen are to say something along the lines of I'd like to go out on a date with you. I mean, not those words exactly. I'm just saying that's the idea that you need to communicate. You need to be willing to communicate the

Dan:
Yeah, so.

Charles:
idea that this is a thing that you want and ask her

Dan:
Okay, so I mean this seems like very obvious, but right so I would just like to get into

Charles:
if she'd like to do it too. It does seem that way.

Dan:
it a little bit with you like. It sounds though like there are some people out there where perhaps it's not so obvious to have you run into those on.

Charles:
such as me when I was 20 years old.

Dan:
Oh, really? So give me give me a little bit of a background.

Charles:
Oh, of course. Yes. I mean,

Dan:
As to what what that looked like.

Charles:
I'm just, I'm just thinking of situations where I had, I mean, we, we taught this is a recurring topic for us where you have a girl that you're friends or friendly with you're interested in her. She doesn't know you're interested in her. And you're worried about being honest about your romantic interest, because

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
as soon as you are, then she has the opportunity and the, she gets the chance to say, no thanks, I'm not into it. And

Dan:
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Charles:
then that feels bad. So you try to figure out ways to. hang out with her, spend time around her, go on dates with her without actually having to say that you want any of those things. Because if you don't say you want any of those things, then she can't reject you.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah. Now, do you think when you were doing that? And I've done that too. Absolutely. When I was younger. I know for me, I guess I was just waiting for a clear and present signal from her that was basically the equivalent of taking out a an ad on a billboard to say, yeah, it's okay to ask me out or, or yeah, I like you, right? Which never comes. What about you?

Charles:
Yeah, that's, I mean, I don't see, that's the thing. I don't even know. I don't think, you know, a couple of the girls that I found myself in that position with were offering any of those signals, but I don't even know that I would have had the experience or the confidence to recognize them, even if I saw them or even if they were

Dan:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Charles:
happening, you know what I mean? I think anything short of her asking me out saying, Hey, I'd like you to take me on a date this time, this place. you know, anything less than that, I still probably would have been like, Oh, I'm not sure if she really likes me. You know what I mean? So

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I think, I think it unlikely that, uh, and the thing to remember is. Yeah, the whole thing comes from what we believe our rejection tolerance is versus what it actually is, right? We, I think as men, many of us believe that our rejection tolerance, how bad it'll hurt, how long that hurt will last, how hard it'll be to get over it. We build it up in our minds to be worse than it actually would be. I mean, you know, this being rejected by a girl that you've never gone out on a real date with or. told what your true feelings were. It's not the same as, you know, the end of a marriage or the end of a long-term dating relationship. It's like, yeah, you think, you think it'll hurt for her to say, no, I don't want to go on a date with you and it will, but it's, it's not something that is going to be unrecoverable from.

Dan:
Yeah, I think, and I'm definitely guilty of this. What happens sometimes is when you find somebody that you're attracted to, your brain starts to come up with these other scenarios, these ideas, these visions, if you will, of what that could look like in the future. Right. You come up with some of these scenarios,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
different, you know, different, you know, going on vacation or meeting the family or, you know, and, and, and.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I think the problem is the more you do that, the more it builds up this. I guess, value that you're potentially going to risk losing by asking her out and her rejecting you, right? So the way around that is, you know, ask quickly before your brain spins out of control and comes up with all these scenarios, right? That's one thing that I would recommend. Or preoccupy yourself with a lot of other things in your life.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
so that you don't have time to think about all of these scenarios that don't exist, by the way, in your mind. And because of that, you also are then spreading your time and energy and value among other things so that there's less dependency on the imaginary relationship you have with this other person in your mind. And those are all things I didn't do when

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
I was younger.

Charles:
Yeah, no, you're right. And,

Dan:
And because of that, I fell into being just a friend

Charles:
and they're.

Dan:
with a lot of, you know, oh, you're too good of a friend. When I finally do have the, had the weak, I guess, confrontation, if you will, about saying,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
hey, look, I like you, or let's go out, or whatever, it was just, you know. many times in college especially that happened to me

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
where it's like, oh, you're a buddy, you're a friend, I couldn't ever see you that way. And so it's just, I just waited too long. And I was also probably very visibly uncomfortable when hanging out with that person. I wasn't like a relaxed, hey, treating her like a friend. It was probably very obvious to people that I had some sort of feelings going on here that were being suppressed.

Charles:
Yeah, not, not only were you suppressing your feelings, but I mean, when you, you're also suppressing what is arguably the most attractive thing about a heterosexual man, which is his confidence.

Dan:
Yeah, for sure. And you're showing the exact opposite.

Charles:
And, and you're exactly. Yeah. So,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and it's, and it's funny how we have that, you know, so many of us can, we can have that confidence in other areas of our lives, the way, you know, we, we interact with our

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
hobbies, the way we interact with people at work. But then when it comes to interacting with a woman we're attracted to, it's like, no, that's completely different, but it doesn't have to be. I mean, you can, you can put your, your best self forward in every situation. It just takes developing a little different set of skills to do that. So, um, yeah. So the, the thing to remember is that first date is going to happen because. You are willing to put yourself out and ask for that first date to happen. Let's. Let's talk about the logistics that typically work the best. Um, so in addition to, um, doing it on a, I mean, I believe doing it on a somewhat compressed time scale, meaning as soon as you've decided that you'd like to go on a date with her, that's when you should ask her to go on a date with you. Um, you shouldn't ruminate on it. You shouldn't strategize on it for an extended period of time. Once, once you decide that that's something that you think you would enjoy, you should ask her out.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And then, uh, when and where and what should you do. Here are the things that I find work for me. First dates and the author does agree. So we're kind of on the same page for this. I think first dates should be something

Dan:
Netflix and chill.

Charles:
with yeah, text her at 3am and ask her if she's up.

Dan:
You up?

Charles:
Yeah. No, the

Dan:
I am.

Charles:
Hi, oh Yeah, so I mean depending on what you're looking for. I mean, I suppose that is a that is a way to go

Dan:
Okay, option A.

Charles:
Yeah, or You can suggest a weeknight date with some sort of built-in Start time and end time. So what I would usually recommend

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
is either happy hour drinks right after work or Or coffee. I mean for the non drinkers probably coffee like me So either coffee or drink right after work for happy hour or a little later at night So you both have a chance to get dinner. I generally would not recommend you do dinner as your first date with someone Because like I said, there is no built-in time for it to be Over can go you go a little bit too long. The first date is really to just I think the first day is to allow you both to look at each other for disqualifiers. Look

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
for deal breakers.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
You go on that first day and you say, okay, is there anything about this person that tells me this is a, here's a good reason why I shouldn't go on a second date with them

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot, there's, yeah, yeah,

Charles:
and that's, that's what you should both be looking for.

Dan:
there's a lot going on with that. You know, it's, okay, do they show up for the date? Do they show up on time for the date? What did they wear to the date? Did it look like they cared about, you know, showing up, right, and what they're wearing? How do they interact with the staff at the place that you're meeting, right?

Charles:
Yeah, for sure.

Dan:
How, you know, how do they carry on a conversation? You know, the, you know, how you've been talking to them up to this point, is that consistent with how they're behaving in? you know, in public and in person, right? There's so many things to really be focused on in terms of evaluating if this is a good match for you. You really shouldn't, I shouldn't use the word shouldn't, I'm trying to get rid of that in my vocabulary, right? So I would say is it's, I think it's a mistake to do anything other than what you said is just kind of evaluate the other person to see if they're. they do the basic things that you expect in a partner of any type of relationship to be able to do, right? And so it's more of an evaluation and not so much a test. And I think when I was younger, I didn't quite understand that and I looked at it as either I was being tested or I had some sort of greater expectation or outcome in mind for that date, especially for the first one. And that never.

Charles:
Yeah, I, uh, I would agree with all that. I think that, yeah, trying to, trying to go into a first date and only looking for the green flags and, and ignoring

Dan:
mmm rose rose colored glasses Yeah.

Charles:
the potential red flags. Yeah, that is, yeah, that is not the way to do it. Your, your, your number one job and her number one job should be, yeah, what are the, what are the things about this person that tell me I'd be wasting my time? to continue dating them.

Dan:
I feel like women are naturally better at doing that, right?

Charles:
Yeah, I think so

Dan:
For whatever reason, yeah.

Charles:
too. I mean, I think a lot of guys will be pretty much focused on how pretty she is. And that is the primary thing that will let you determine whether you want slash need to go on a second date with her.

Dan:
Yeah, you know, and I think probably for women, they naturally need to, they're constantly, I think, evaluating situations because I feel my, my impression from some of the stuff that we've been reading, listening to is that they're, they feel threatened in terms of their safety quite often. And so that would be something that a skillset that they've developed is really kind of evaluating situations and people for, you know, for threats. and that probably translates really well in terms of, you know, a fit for a potential

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
mate or boyfriend. So I feel like maybe that's perhaps why they, you know, they go slow at a lot of the beginning of a lot of relationships because they've got things to be concerned about. I think if we were in that same spot, we'd be the same way. We wouldn't be so focused on just, you know, the sex part or what she looks like. because we too concerned about our safety or whatever that might be. And because we don't have to, you know, he does talk about this kind of in follow updates is that, you know, we, we rushed to have a follow update regardless sometimes of how the first date went. And that's not, again, we're kind of rushing, rushing the process there. It also kind of shows that as he mentions is we're not really in control of our emotions. We let our urges just kind of take

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
over and we can't control them. And that's not a good thing.

Charles:
Yeah, I would, uh, and he talks a little bit about the timeline here with, he's in kind of vague terms, but I'll, I'll give an actual timeline that I think is, is probably pretty, has worked for me, which is generally say you meet a girl, whether it's on a dating app or in person while you're out or, you know, friend of a friend, you know, you go, you go to the beach or go to brunch with some friends and you meet a girl that, you know, you're kind of interested in, uh, my, my recommendation and You and I have both had the problem where we schedule a date too far out because we've got travel or we've got work or we've got whatever.

Dan:
Yeah, for sure.

Charles:
And then things just kind of cool out to the point

Dan:
Yup.

Charles:
where the date never actually materializes. Right. So what I

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, that's that's not that long ago.

Charles:
was thinking about this was.

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, that was literally a couple of years ago.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I mean, where I would do that, I'd be like, Oh, this is great. I'll just fill up my calendar. Right. And it doesn't work for dates.

Charles:
Right. Yeah. If it's too, if it's too far out, yeah, especially,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
especially if you're trying to take some of the previous advice, which is, you know, not have a texting relationship with her nonstop for three weeks before you actually get to see each other. You know, you're,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you're not, you're not constantly texting or keeping yourself sort of front of mind that way. You're not seeing her. It's in most cases, it's going to, it's probably going to cool down. So what I, what has worked for me is, um, ask her out. on like a Monday and try to schedule it for a Wednesday or Thursday night. And that seems

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
to be about the, about the sweet spot where if, if the girl's interested, if she does, if she does actually want to go on a date with you and want to see you, then usually that sort of 48 72 hour window seems to be. Pretty decent at converting to an actual meetup. So I would say, yeah, ask, ask her out for a date to occur two to three days in the future.

Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. What about asking her out for a weekend night?

Charles:
Yeah, generally not as good as weekday because number one, I think there's a little bit more expectation and pressure.

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
You know, too, because we have fewer weekend nights and we have weeknights. So they're a little bit more valuable. So that can

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
put a little bit more pressure and expectation. The other thing is a lot of people choose. I mean, look at you and me. We we set up our weekends to spend generally with our friends or our family, in your case. Um, we don't, uh, we don't usually spend setting up a first date on the weekend doesn't usually seem to be the best move. Uh, week, weeknights

Dan:
No, no.

Charles:
and, and with those weeknight dates, I would say, you know, do what you can. Don't, don't just make up an excuse. Don't make up a fake timeline, but set some sort of a, uh, start time and end time where you, you only meet

Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think on both sides, I think that's a good idea because that way it minimizes

Charles:
somebody for about an hour and you know,

Dan:
her uncomfortableness because if she's not into you, you know, knowing that she's got an end time or that you've established a mutual end time, it feels a lot less awkward. It's a lot less risky for her to agree to it because she knows it's going to be over at some point. Whereas if you

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
leave it open-ended, which also could happen easily on a weekend because you don't have,

Charles:
Exactly.

Dan:
work commitments the next day, it can just bleed into anywhere.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And at that point, now she has to be the bad guy to kind of like end things if things aren't going well for her. And, you know, women, I mean, they're very good at delivering bad news. I feel like they, you know, they turn down guys in a very kind way. That's just something that's a skill that they hone, right. And I think that's just part of being a woman is, is that's just, you know, they, they, they are approached and you know, more often than they need to do the approaching. And so what they need to do is when they're not interested, they need to find ways to gracefully and kindly, you know, decline things in a way that's not going to piss the guy off or trigger anything, you know? So, so again, it's another skillset that they've developed. Unfortunately, a lot of guys, you know, when it's not, when it, when it is a little bit graceful, they'll, they don't get the message they don't get. And we'll kind of keep, keep at it. Right.

Charles:
Yes. Yeah, the... The thing to remember is if you do set up that limit of you're going to date, you're going to date her for an hour and at the end of the day, you're going to say good night and go home. You need to be committed to that no matter how good or bad it goes. Well, I wouldn't say how bad

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
it goes. You're allowed to leave early for sure. But if it goes really, really great, it's even more important for you to end it at the one hour mark like you said you were going to do instead of

Dan:
Why? Why? I mean, if things are things are rocking and rolling, then why would I want to end it?

Charles:
turning it into... You won't want to end it, but you should end it anyway, because

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
then you'll both look forward even more to the next date. If, if you,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
I mean, number one, you'll prove that you're somebody who, you know, when you set a time, you stick to it, you know, we're, we're going to meet at six. And, uh, I've got to hit the road at seven to get, to get back home. And then you do that. And so that's good. That's, that's the thing that's recommended. And then. I believe that it will also increase how forward she looks to seeing you for the second date. And with that one, if you had a great time and you think that she did too, then, you know, feel free to set a longer window for the second date. Say, okay, meet me at, uh, you know, maybe you want to do dinner for the second date or let's, let's meet for coffee and then go for a walk and you can do two hours instead of one hour. But I would say for that first date. Now, you know, I guess there is a another scenario where you're just looking to hook up with somebody and hopefully that will

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
take longer than an hour from the point that you meet her until the point that you're done. Ideally, that'll be a longer than an hour experience from start to finish.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
If that's what you're, if that's what you're looking for, then yeah, then by all means don't, but if you're looking to build a dating relationship with someone, I think a good first step is, is to say, okay. Uh, I'm going to meet you for coffee. We'll meet at six and be done by seven or meet at five, be done by six, whatever it is. Meet for an hour, leave after an hour, and then if it went well, ask for a second date, and if it didn't, say it was nice meeting you, but nice meeting you and I wish you the best in all your future endeavors or whatever it is that you want to say.

Dan:
and a punch on the shoulder. Yeah. So you are advocating then to ask for the second date before the first date is over.

Charles:
No, no, I would not do that. I would wait until, I would let your hormones and your emotions calm down at least overnight before you ask for the second date. I would say

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
wait till the next day, probably.

Dan:
Okay. Okay. And then any advice on how to end the first date.

Charles:
Pull a fire alarm and run and run out of the place screaming

Dan:
Okay, excellent, great. Okay, fantastic. That was that's exactly what I was looking for.

Charles:
Are you asking about whether to kiss them, whether to hug them, whether to tell...

Dan:
Or yeah, or correct. Or yeah, or even, okay, let's back up.

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
Let's say you're meeting somebody from a dating app for the first time on a first date. What kind of greeting should you give them? Is this a hug, a kiss on the cheek, a handshake?

Charles:
Probably not a handshake. I would say I think I generally hug on a first date. And I don't know if I've ever kissed somebody on the cheek on the first date.

Dan:
Okay, now what?

Charles:
I know you're a kisser.

Dan:
Yeah, I am. When when you hug the person, are you touching any is it any kind of cheek to cheek hug? Or is it just a body hug? Is it a bro hug where you know, you kind of keep your your crotch out a little bit and just kind of like a chest bump kind of thing? How how affectionate you feel like we need to be here with this hug?

Charles:
Good question. I don't even, I don't know that I've ever thought about any of this. I definitely have not done side hugs. I don't do side hugs.

Dan:
Okay, all right, that's worth finding it. Okay.

Charles:
I... Let's see. I'm trying to remember if I go arms over or arms under. I think probably arms under.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But it's hard for me to remember for sure. I've never really thought about my hug technique for that initial introduction. I don't

Dan:
Yeah, I've...

Charles:
know, there may be a YouTube video worth looking up for this.

Dan:
Yeah, you know, I've scaled it back for me. I don't go for a kiss on the cheek or anything anymore. I mean, coming from the Northeast, that seems to be a very common thing up there when you don't even like a stranger or you kind of know somebody, it's pretty more, it's more common. Down here, not so much in Florida. It's, you know, there's a lot of side hugging going on, a lot of a little bit more conservative, I feel, you know, greetings. So I've scaled that back to just, you know, a friendly hug real quick kind of thing, just, and I'll initiate it and it'll be, it'll be a quick, Hey, you know, I, you know, it's nice to see you. I care about you. And that's, that's, you know, enough to show up for the date, right? And, and there's something I like about you, but I don't, um,

Charles:
Right, right.

Dan:
and I feel like it's just a little safer to be a little bit more on the conservative side. Um, at least that's, that's the way I feel about it when it comes to the physical touching. at least that initial greeting and and then you know, I'll let them if they if they want to be you know, more physical, I've got no problem with that. But I let them kind of dictate what that looks like. And yeah, so

Charles:
Yeah, I would say. I would probably avoid the side hug and, uh, and pats on the back while you're hugging. Those, those do seem to

Dan:
Yeah. Yeah.

Charles:
be a little too, uh, buddy that communicates, Hey, you're my buddy. I would say not,

Dan:
Yeah, maybe maybe like a gentle, just like maybe a little gentle

Charles:
uh, not you're somebody I'm interested in romantically.

Dan:
squeeze on the shoulders or something like that. I don't know that that's kind of that's probably how I do it.

Charles:
Let me do a quick search and see

Dan:
I don't even think about it. Yeah.

Charles:
if anybody's got any videos on this.

Dan:
Yeah, so

Charles:
Okay, there are some how to greet a girl on a first date. So I will go

Dan:
Ooh.

Charles:
through some of these and see if there's any worth dropping in the notes section and if there are, I will do so.

Dan:
Great! Excellent.

Charles:
And then at the end of the date. Yeah, if I have any romantic interest in a girl, I'm trying to kiss her on the first date.

Dan:
Hmm. Okay, so let's get into this. Now, where would that kiss

Charles:
If, uh, yeah.

Dan:
happen? Where do you where do you feel like it's it's okay.

Charles:
On her lips.

Dan:
Touche, I've walked right into that, that's fantastic.

Charles:
I'm sorry.

Dan:
So where do you feel like you are in the right moment or do you craft a moment? Where do you feel comfortable, you know, being vulnerable and reaching in for that kiss?

Charles:
Well, if you,

Dan:
And what signs do you look for during the date

Charles:
uh...

Dan:
to say, yup, I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna go for the kiss.

Charles:
The only sign I look for on the day is, and this is kind of just a matter of I trust myself. If I'm feeling it, if I'm feeling attracted to her, if I'm feeling like we're vibing, if I want to kiss her, I assume that she will want to kiss me back.

Dan:
Okay, so.

Charles:
So I really only go based on, and if I'm not getting sort of those indicators of interest on a subconscious level, then I'm not gonna feel like kissing her. So in my, there's

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
probably more to share here than. that I'm thinking about, but for the most part, I just go by how I'm feeling, and I assume that how I'm feeling is occurring in the context of how she's feeling and acting toward me as well.

Dan:
Okay, so the indicators of interest that you look for, do they, do any of them need to be physical? Or is verbal enough?

Charles:
Yes, well, again, I will have in the case of a girl that I'm going to want to kiss at the end of the night. There's going to already be some mutual touching. Whether that's. Touching her arm while we're talking touching her leg while we're talking. Touching her hair at some point. I mean usually something like that will have already happened and again. I'm only going to feel like doing those things if I'm attracted to her, if I'm having a good time and if I'm feeling like the energy's coming from her as well. And so, yeah, a lot of this, it really is happening at a level below the surface. But with

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
the kissing, the thing that I will usually do to avoid anything that feels a little, I mean, it's not fun to go in for a kiss and then have her give you the cheek or back away. It could happen and to make that easy on her what I generally will do is I forget where I heard this or read this, but basically you look in her eyes, then you look down at her lips, then you look back at her eyes and you move in for the kiss very slowly so that if she doesn't want to kiss you back, she has plenty of time to react in a way that makes that clear.

Dan:
Yeah, I think that's a great way of approaching it.

Charles:
But

Dan:
Yeah, you're, you know.

Charles:
what I don't recommend is asking her if it's okay to kiss her or something like that, which I feel

Dan:
Uh, you don't, we don't want to get her to sign a contract that says she gives consent.

Charles:
like... No, we, we do not endorse

Dan:
No.

Charles:
the idea of consent on this podcast. No, of course we, we don't want to do anything to somebody

Dan:
So.

Charles:
that they don't want to do, but also the, the stopping what you're doing. And I've, I mean, I've talked to girls about this before and the idea of, of asking them if you can hold their hand, if you can, you know, get that first peck on the lips. is not now as you escalate further, then by all means, there are things that you should check in with them verbally on before you do. But I would say, you know, the first time you try to hold a girl's hand or the first time you try to give her a peck on the lips, you can... I've done that without asking. And look, I'm completely open to the idea of that's wrong. I shouldn't do that. Somebody has a really great argument why that's not the way to be. I'm just completely going off of my own experience and what has worked in the past and what... girls have told me they don't like guys to do, which is stopping the romance so that you can say, would it be okay if I held your hand? Would it be okay if I kissed you? I found a, a better way to handle that is just to move very slowly. So they have ample time and look for, even if they don't say, no, don't kiss me. If you, if you move slowly and you see that they react in a way that they're not into it, then don't continue trying to kiss them.

Dan:
Larry David has a great episode in career enthusiasm about the whole consent thing. And he puts it on video with him

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
and a girl sitting at the couch and just goes through this whole thing. I am, she's giving me consent now to put her arm on, put my arm on her shoulder. And it's very, and you know, it's overdone. It's hysterical. It's one I definitely recommend you watch because based on this conversation.

Charles:
So on his show, does he, does he go from being married to not being married on the

Dan:
Yes, correct, he does.

Charles:
show? Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Dan:
Yep, yep, mm-hmm.

Charles:
Okay. Cause I've only seen like the first two or three episodes. I was like, wait, isn't he married? What's so okay. So that makes sense that he, he gets divorced

Dan:
I mean, I think there's 10 or 11 seasons.

Charles:
and then starts dating.

Dan:
So yeah, there may be more.

Charles:
Oh, okay, gotcha. Yeah, a lot can happen.

Dan:
Yeah, I don't remember, but there's a lot.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
So he, yeah, he goes all over the place and it's fantastic to watch because a lot of them are similar storylines to what he does in Seinfeld. And then you can kind of identify, but slightly different and it's still hysterical, still hysterical.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
So yeah.

Charles:
So you're seeing it more from the, uh, the George side of the story, right.

Dan:
Yes, yes, yeah.

Charles:
Then the Jerry side. Yeah.

Dan:
And all the characters are more extreme than they are in Seinfeld, but you can see like this, you know, the neighbors is like Elaine and this guy

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
and that guy are kind of like Kramer. Good stuff, really good stuff.

Charles:
All right, I'm trying to decide if we should stop there or if we should, I think we should stop there and then do a separate episode for flaking and no contact. Is that cool with you? All

Dan:
That works for me.

Charles:
right. Yeah, let's go ahead and we'll stop there. And then the next episode, we'll talk about flaking, which will be pretty quick. We'll go along with some of the reasons that someone would break a date at late notice. And that's what we're calling flaking. And that is certainly not exclusively the the experience of something that just women do to men, men will certainly do that to women too.

Dan:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And we will share what I believe is the 100% foolproof perfect response to somebody breaking plans for a date with little notice. And it's not my idea. It's something I got off of one of the mental health dating accounts I follow on Instagram. And it just struck me as, Oh my gosh, that's the perfect thing to say every time this happens. and we'll share that next time.

Dan:
Yeah, and I'm going to counter that and talk about the perfect way to flake on a date. So it'll be great. It's going to be a real

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
hoot.

Charles:
Excellent. All right. We'll talk to you later, Dan. Thank you.

Dan:
All right, bye bye.

Charles:
Bye.