Grown-ups Use The "No Contact" Rule

When a partner wants "some space", "a break", or a straight-up break up, the most respectful thing you can to (to them, and to yourself) is to give it to them.

In this episode, we discuss the "No Contact Rule" and why it's the best way to heal yourself--and sometimes--a relationship.

Transcript

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
Good afternoon, sir.

Charles:
Yeah, hello. The weather is seemingly fine. What have you got? You do anything tonight? We haven't talked about our plans for the evening, or your

Dan:
Uh,

Charles:
plans.

Dan:
I have not made any plans for this evening.

Charles:
Neither have I. I haven't heard anything from our friends either that anything's

Dan:
That's

Charles:
going on.

Dan:
a little unusual.

Charles:
It is. Maybe they all secretly hate me.

Dan:
or me too because I didn't get anything either so maybe it's both of us.

Charles:
Oh, okay. I assumed it was a, Hey Dan, don't tell Charles. Let's, you know, whatever. Um,

Dan:
Well, if they did, do you think I would tell you?

Charles:
that's true. I guess, I guess there's no way I would know.

Dan:
No, no.

Charles:
funny. You remember Kelly from The Office played by Mindy Kaling?

Dan:
Yep. Sure.

Charles:
She wrote a book called, the title of it was, Is Everyone Hanging Out Without Me and Other Concerns?

Dan:
That's pretty funny.

Charles:
Yeah, she's funny. I like her. I think I read that book. I remember it being pretty good. Anyway, so yeah, I don't have any plans, but I'm also pretty tired. I My appointment at the mechanic this morning was, uh, to sort of get things going as early as possible and get done as early as possible. I had to have my car there before they opened at seven and they're an hour away, which means my alarm was my alarm went off at five. I was already, you know, awake in bed at four 30 staring at the ceiling.

Dan:
Wow.

Charles:
Because, you know, whenever, whenever you have to, I haven't been waking up at five o'clock lately. And so whenever you have to wake up earlier than you're used to waking up. and you open your eyes and the clock says 420 or 430. It's like, I know there's no chance of me getting back to sleep.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
So, oh, one thing I did want to, I've been forgetting to talk to you about this in our intro for a couple episodes now. Two pretty great TV shows ended here in the last week or two.

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
Ted Lasso and Succession.

Dan:
Right, we never talked about that.

Charles:
No, we didn't. And... Yeah, so have you finished Ted Lasso yet?

Dan:
No, I haven't.

Charles:
Okay. All right. Well, we'll

Dan:
I've,

Charles:
hold off on

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
that

Dan:
there's

Charles:
one.

Dan:
like two episodes left, I feel. I think, yeah, I was watching.

Charles:
I felt

Dan:
You know what,

Charles:
like...

Dan:
I'll finish it up next weekend at my dad's place, so,

Charles:
Oh, there you go.

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
I felt like this season, uh, had some great episodes. I mean, maybe some of the best episodes of the run, but it also had some of the worst corniest sitcom me episodes too. And that was a little disappointing. Like the,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
there were high highs and low lows of season three of Ted Lasso. I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
did enjoy the ending. I thought they did a good job ending the show, but, uh,

Dan:
And that

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
was

Charles:
there.

Dan:
the was that the series finale? There's only

Charles:
Well, we

Dan:
or

Charles:
don't know.

Dan:
what season? Oh.

Charles:
What I think they're implying, if not outright saying, is that the character of Ted Lasso, his story is over, but

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
there may still be more AFC Richmond, Rebecca, Roy, Keely, Jamie stories. They may try to continue on without the Ted Lasso character.

Dan:
Interesting.

Charles:
But

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
I think Jason Sudeikis, the guy who plays Ted Lasso, and he's one of the creators of the show, he's kind of made it clear that Ted's story was just a three season story, and now it's

Dan:
Interesting.

Charles:
over.

Dan:
Yeah, I think it might be tough to not jump the shark if you're trying to

Charles:
I was, yeah,

Dan:
You make

Charles:
his,

Dan:
it about anybody else at this point, you

Charles:
uh,

Dan:
know

Charles:
yeah, his character was a, was a big, the biggest part of that show and also his character. I mean, that is one of my favorite portrayals of masculinity in any TV show. I mean, he

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
did such a good job of, of being a strong, kind, positive man. Um, and he, and he was, he's very kind and he's very nice. but he's not like goofy, naive about it. You know what I mean? It's not

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
like, he's not nice to people because he's weak and because he is soft. He's nice because he has confidence and he chooses to be nice to people. That's the way he chooses to go through his life. Not because he's scared to be mean.

Dan:
Yeah. And he faces a lot of criticism for being nice, right? For being a little bit too dad joky all the time, a little bit too over the top sometimes, but he doesn't apologize for it, right?

Charles:
Correct.

Dan:
And, and, and it doesn't, and he doesn't alter himself based on the feedback and criticism from other people. So

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
I think that shows, that shows some, some

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
confidence.

Charles:
I watched, I watched one. I mean, the, there's a couple of great scenes on that show from the first season. There's the dart scene where he's playing darts against the ex husband

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
who,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
uh, of the, who, of the owner of the team. And, and he talks about being underestimated and, uh, people being curious versus people being judgmental. I love that scene. And then, uh, there's a great scene at the end of season two where, um, The guy, Nate, who worked his way from equipment manager all the way up to the coaching staff is, uh, they have a falling out and Nate's very angry at, uh, at Ted and, you know, at the end of the second season, Nate ends up leaving AFC Richmond, uh, for a job somewhere else. Um, but he's basically just talking to Ted and letting all this anger out at Ted and Ted's responses to say, um, basically what's going on between us? What do I have to learn here is what he says.

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
Like he assumes that there's something going on and there's a lesson for him to learn about it, not why are you being a dick to me? Why are you so angry all the time?

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
He doesn't say any of that. He says, what do I have to learn here? Which it's

Dan:
That's

Charles:
like,

Dan:
a

Charles:
man,

Dan:
great... If

Charles:
I

Dan:
you

Charles:
know.

Dan:
can remember that in the heat of a moment,

Charles:
I know, I wish, I was just gonna say, I wish I could remember that when

Dan:
that's

Charles:
somebody

Dan:
very

Charles:
is,

Dan:
Zen, you know,

Charles:
I

Dan:
very

Charles:
know,

Dan:
like Buddha-like,

Charles:
right? Yeah,

Dan:
like yeah,

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
When somebody's pushing at me or being mean to me or, you know, acting out of anger toward me, I cannot imagine a situation where I would be able to say, what do I have to learn here instead of getting defensive? I mean, that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
just blows me away. But, uh, I mean, there's, there's a reason that, uh, that show is one of, uh, Brene Brown's favorite shows. I mean, she, she loves the way that they handle interpersonal reaction relationships

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
on that show. And she's had, uh, Jason Sudeikis and, uh, was it Brandon Hunt? Brendan Hunt, the guy who plays Coach Beard, they're co-creators of that show. And they did an episode of her podcast and talked all about the way that they write people and the situations and man, it was good. So

Dan:
Oh, that's interesting.

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
gonna miss that

Dan:
I haven't

Charles:
show.

Dan:
heard it. Yeah.

Charles:
I hope they decide to keep going somehow. And ideally with Jason Sudeikis showing up in one or two episodes a season, that'd be great.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
But I'm gonna miss that show. And then the other one was Succession, which... I didn't get into that for a long time. I think I started watching it after season two had finished, but before season three came on the air or was released by HBO. And so I binge seasons one and two, and then seasons three and four, I kind of watched them a week at a time as they released episodes. And man, what a great show that is. I really enjoyed seeing these kids sort of fighting for... power and dominance and just it's like they were they were playing a game that they didn't really deserve to be invited to

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
and they didn't have the skills to play it but they felt entitled to play it and they kind of got worked almost every time they tried to accomplish anything serious they got worked over by somebody who had put in more effort and more work I mean their father was the one you know and terrible father obviously and on every level but yeah whenever they tried to go up against him it was just it was just futile because

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
of his psychological disorders as well as his experience and his how street smart he was and all that stuff it was it was fun to watch.

Dan:
Yeah, I think I think what made it fun was that they would write into like every episode, some sort of scene that would basically illustrate what you just described in terms of the children feeling entitled

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
and some sort of like real petty type of situation where they'd get way too emotional and worked up about. And in all fairness, you know, Tom also fell into that trap

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Dan:
a few times with Greg. And some of those were the funniest, I thought. And just made it really entertaining to see where it would, I guess, kind of veer off at, you know, it's like operating a certain level and all of a sudden something, something happens that is so trivial, but they, you know, it just turns into this big scene. Yeah, that's one of the greatest. I haven't seen that very often in a lot of shows.

Charles:
Yeah, the

Dan:
They did it

Charles:
other

Dan:
really well.

Charles:
they did it extremely well and it reminds me a lot of Mad Men. Did you watch Mad Men from start

Dan:
Sure.

Charles:
to finish? Yeah.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And Mad Men was is the only other show I can think of where essentially there are no sympathetic characters like there's nobody on Mad Men that you're able to point to be like, oh, he's the good guy. It's like no all of them are terrible people and It's funny. There's, I see a lot of overlap between Roger Sterling and Roman Roy,

Dan:
Oh yeah,

Charles:
where

Dan:
right.

Charles:
it's like, neither of them are good people, but they're just funny. So I like them.

Dan:
Yeah. Yeah.

Charles:
And yeah, I loved, I loved how funny Roger, I mean, Roger did terrible things on Mad Men, but he had the best one-liners. So it's like, I guess if I have to pick a favorite character, it's probably Roger and same with Roman. Like he's a terrible person. He does terrible things, but he also has the best insults. So I kind of like him the best.

Dan:
Yep. Yeah.

Charles:
But yeah, not a lot of good examples of healthy masculinity, of mental health, of good parenting, of even of being a good sibling, being a good spouse. I mean, there was really not much. I mean, I really liked one line from Logan Roy where he's talking, I think he was talking to Shiv at the time that really just... summed up the entitlement of the children on that show where he says, I built you a playground and you mistook it for the world.

Dan:
Oh. Wow.

Charles:
Yeah, and that really hit it home for me, like

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
what their problem is, you know.

Dan:
I mean, I don't know. Should we get into the finale

Charles:
the end.

Dan:
and what happened?

Charles:
Yeah. Yeah,

Dan:
And,

Charles:
we're

Dan:
you

Charles:
gonna

Dan:
know,

Charles:
we're

Dan:
because

Charles:
gonna we're gonna talk about how it ended everybody. So if you haven't seen it yet, then go ahead and

Dan:
subscribe.

Charles:
exactly unsubscribe from the podcast. Never listen again. No, I will say let's see what is it we're at 11 and a half. I will say we will talk about it for one minute and then we'll stop.

Dan:
Yep, that works.

Charles:
Okay, go

Dan:
Yeah, so I mean, I really love what happened in terms of it was very smooth and natural transition to see Tom actually ascend to the position that he got to. And I thought they did it in a really healthy way. And I just really, it was really interesting to see the dynamics between him and Shiv and that relationship change once he got that power. And it was just, you could see on her face that her bubble. in so many ways of the world and her worldview just burst right there.

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
Like her respect, she had no respect for Tom. She thought, you know, that basically she was, she would do no wrong and she was on the right side of every issue.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And you could just see just in her face. And I mean, I, I guess you attribute that to the acting and maybe, you know,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
uh, the, the writing, um, just such a change. Um, and, and Tom, the guy who played Tom pulled it off in a way where you weren't like really upset that he got it either. Like I felt like he, you know, he wasn't, he was still fairly humble. Oh, it could have been a lot more arrogant about getting that position and rubbing people's noses in it. And he did a little bit with Greg, but not too

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
much. And he

Charles:
that's

Dan:
definitely

Charles:
true.

Dan:
didn't do it with Shiv.

Charles:
Yeah, okay, let's keep talking about it, and I'll

Dan:
All

Charles:
edit

Dan:
right. A

Charles:
in

Dan:
disclaimer.

Charles:
a disclaimer to say, hey, yeah. So, yeah, but it's interesting that it's not like he really got the, he didn't get the Logan Roy position, because he's essentially

Dan:
No.

Charles:
still just a figurehead, you know?

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Madsen's gonna really be running the corporation. He just wants some American guy to sit in the position, have the title and pretend to be the CEO while he pulls all the strings, which is exactly, but that's still what she

Dan:
that,

Charles:
was hoping for. I mean,

Dan:
right?

Charles:
that's what

Dan:
And,

Charles:
she, that's what she wanted.

Dan:
and, and if it's Tom's personality as well, cause he gets,

Charles:
Oh yeah.

Dan:
he gets the appearance,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
right?

Charles:
Exactly.

Dan:
And whether he's actually doing it or not, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He's getting the recognition that status. And

Charles:
Yeah, I...

Dan:
then, you know, yeah, at the end, you know, it them in the limo and just the whole, like the way she was holding his hand or not holding his hand, it was kind

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
of like, like barely

Charles:
Rested

Dan:
lightly

Charles:
it on.

Dan:
touching

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
it, you know, it just, totally, it was such a good, I don't know, metaphor or analogy or whatever for their relationship. Basically they're together, but not really. Like they don't really wanna be together kind of thing. I felt like, or she didn't really, really wanna be with him. Just

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
have that little bit of distance there, right?

Charles:
Yeah, it's curious to, to wonder about what their relationship would have gone on to look like, you know, in that context of him getting that job and her not getting the job and she's having his baby.

Dan:
See, I think that would be a great spinoff. I think they could pull that off for sure, yeah.

Charles:
Yeah, that would be interesting, but I don't think the creator of the show

Dan:
now.

Charles:
has, has interest in, in continuing the story, but that would be to see how the dynamic changes because. Yeah, I mean the, the part where Tom for so long was willing to roll over and just eat crap in order to, because it might give him one more rung on the ladder. And then he ends up with that position. It's curious to see, would her opinion of him change? Would she? Would

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
she love him more? Would she respect him more? Would she desire him more now that he achieved that, that level of power? I don't know. I mean, it would've, it would've been interesting to, to see whether it impacted their relationship in a positive way, or if she was so angry that he got it and she didn't, that, uh, it would've pushed them further apart. I don't know.

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, I think they both made it clear that they both loved the power and the money, I think more than each other.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
And so

Charles:
yeah, because they

Dan:
it

Charles:
joked about, you know, going to live in a trailer park together or something

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
like that. Yeah

Dan:
right. Yeah. So,

Charles:
For love.

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
Yeah

Dan:
So it's kind of like, all right, well, you know, I'll kind of keep you around if you want to be around, you know, that's kind of that's the attitude I got, you know, from Tom anyway, at the end. So

Charles:
Yeah. All right. So end of succession talk, I will, I will put in a, uh, some sort of an edit with a, with a timestamp to tell our, our beloved listeners when they can

Dan:
Hehehe

Charles:
leave and when they can come back. Um, but yeah, that was, man, it's, it's tough when, uh, when good shows like that, uh, go off the

Dan:
And

Charles:
air

Dan:
right,

Charles:
and,

Dan:
it's like,

Charles:
and

Dan:
what

Charles:
you,

Dan:
do I watch now, right? Is

Charles:
you're

Dan:
that

Charles:
so

Dan:
meme,

Charles:
used to,

Dan:
right?

Charles:
you know, usually, usually I would. TV shows that I'm really into, I usually watch the next morning and now I don't get to watch Succession, I don't get to look forward to Ted Lasso. I am watching Silo on Apple TV right now,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
which is pretty good at say, it's based on a sort of dystopian sci-fi future book that it was released originally as a short story in like 2011. I read it shortly after it came out. It's called Wool. W-O-O-L. And the title is not directly related to sheep as much as it is about something that happens on the in the story. But I think it's Apple TV's highest rated streaming show that they've released or something like it's getting a lot of a lot of people are watching it. Rebecca Ferguson, I think, is the main the main star. She was in a couple of the Mission Impossible movies and she's played in a couple of other things. Oh, she was in Dr. Sleep, the sequel. to the Shining. Have you seen that?

Dan:
I've seen

Charles:
It's

Dan:
The Shining,

Charles:
really,

Dan:
I haven't seen Doctor Sleep though.

Charles:
Dr.

Dan:
I didn't

Charles:
Sleep's

Dan:
know there was

Charles:
real

Dan:
a sequel.

Charles:
good. I really enjoyed it. Ewan McGregor plays a grown up version of the little boy from the Shining.

Dan:
Interesting.

Charles:
And he still

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
has

Dan:
now

Charles:
all the,

Dan:
I want to watch it. Yeah.

Charles:
he still has the powers that he had when he was a boy. And a little girl reaches out to him psychically who has his power but even more of it. And then she ends up getting hunted. by these vampires and he has to help savor from them.

Dan:
Hi.

Charles:
And like the big final scene, he basically leads them to the Overlook Hotel. And so the finale of the movie happens back at the Overlook.

Dan:
interesting.

Charles:
It was really good. I really, I loved the book when it came out, when I saw that King wrote a sequel to The Shining because

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I was one of those people, I liked The Shining book. I mean, I appreciate what Kubrick did, but it was a little over stylized, I thought. It was... It was more about being a Kubrick movie than it was about being Stephen King's story.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And I really enjoyed the Shining book. So when he wrote a sequel to it, I read it like the weekend that came out. I bought it and just read through the whole thing. And then I was always curious, how are they going to make a movie out of it? How are they going to make a movie out of it? And I mean, picking Ewan McGregor, I mean, that's Ewan McGregor is always a safe choice, right?

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
When it comes

Dan:
right.

Charles:
to. Yeah. So yeah, I think you'll enjoy it. You should watch Doctor Sleep. But anyway, yeah, the girl from Silo, the star. is she plays the antagonist in Dr. Sleep and she's really good. Tim Robbins is in it.

Dan:
Oh, nice. I love

Charles:
Common

Dan:
me some Tim Robbins.

Charles:
is in it. He's

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
pretty

Dan:
wow.

Charles:
good. He was great in Common was great. John Wick 3 I think it was either two or three. It was two. He was in John Wick 2. He was really good in that. But yeah, I think seven or eight episodes have come out and I think they're gonna stop at 10 for the first season but it's already been renewed because so many people are watching it. And it's a good story. I like it. Good

Dan:
All right,

Charles:
mystery.

Dan:
yeah, I'll edit.

Charles:
All right, so we're 20 minutes in. Let's talk about going no contact. So, uh, no contact is a communication strategy that you employ when someone has through either their words or their actions demonstrated that they have a lower level of interest in you than you have in them.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
So what you do is when someone takes a step back to you, or step back from you or from your relationship. Uh, if you're like most humans, your impulse is to take a step forward to try to maintain that distance that you previously had, where what we generally learn is that is not the smart thing to do if you're hoping to still have a relationship with that person. If you still want the relationship to continue, then when they take a step back, you also take a step back. And that frees them up to feel like they need to take a step forward to restore what they had previously.

Dan:
You know, and also, and I think we talked about this briefly too, is, you know, thinking through this, you, it's, it's the kind thing to do because then you know, they need that. They took the step back because they felt like for whatever reason they, they wanted to do that. And you need to give them that, that space.

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
Cause if you, you don't, then that's, you're forcing something upon them and versus saying, Hey, I understand what you're saying. You know, I'm going to honor your request and uh, I, you know, I'm going to let you do you, let you do you and, and let you do what you need to do. I'm not going to try to control the situation or you. And yeah, I mean, I think there are instances where maybe that's what a woman does. Maybe that's why she subs back is maybe she wants to get a little bit more control from you. Maybe she wants you to pursue her for whatever reason. Um, what do you, what do you think about? those situations? How do we, how do you determine whether it is because this is what she wants or this is some sort of a way to get a reaction out of you that maybe wants makes her kind of feel reassured

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
that you are

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
actually interested in her?

Charles:
You see, I would say that if someone desires increased closeness to you, and the way they think they get that is by pulling away from you, that feels like unhealthy thinking.

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
And

Dan:
Red

Charles:
so

Dan:
flag.

Charles:
I don't know that it's something I would indulge them in. You know, I would say if someone pulls away from me because of the person I would like to be and the kind of relationship I would like to have, I'm going to assume that if someone pulls away from me, it's because they actually want some distance from me.

Dan:
Fair.

Charles:
And so I think that the kind and respectful thing, like you said, to do in that scenario, and again, that's whether they have asked for that space or they have just changed their behavior toward you and made it clear that that's what they want. You give them what they are either asking for or what they are... communicating to you through their actions that they need, which is space. So if somebody takes a step back from a relationship, you take one or two steps back from them and then, you know, give them the chance to miss the interactions that they were used to having with you. And then they can decide if they want to take a step back toward you or, or not. Maybe it's time for that relationship. Maybe it's run its course and it's, it's at the end.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And so, um, I would say that, you know, depending on the level of or how many steps they've taken back, you know, if they've broken up with you, then the adult thing to do and the respectful thing to do is let them have the breakup and get out of their face. And the way no contact works typically as it's, you know, talked about in dating books or you know, online when people are advising going no contact. It doesn't mean that you ignore someone. It doesn't mean that if they reach out to you, you don't respond to them. And you give them the silent treatment, you freeze them out. It just means you don't initiate conversations with someone who no longer wants to talk to you.

Dan:
Right. Yep.

Charles:
And, uh, and it certainly means that if, if someone breaks up with you and says they want to be friends and you don't just want to be friends, you don't accept friendship from somebody when you want something more from them. And we've talked about that. That's true at the beginning of a potential relationship and it's certainly true at the end of relationship If you if you don't want friendship for with someone then don't accept friendship with them because you'll be a crappy friend to them for sure

Dan:
Yeah. I mean, and then you're there. That's an, it's a nice guy trait to have. You're sacrificing, you know, what you want and you're not communicating your needs. And if anything, you're lying, you're lying to yourself and you're lying to her saying that is acceptable. And that's not cool.

Charles:
Right. And, uh, you know, one, one thing he does caution is not to go no contact in a passive aggressive way, meaning, um, and I would say passive aggressive would be, you know, failing to respond to her if she reaches out to you. I mean, if, if she says that she just wants to be your friend and you say, no, I don't, I don't want to be your friend. I want to continue seeing you romantically. If you change your mind, reach out to me. If you wanna give this relationship another shot, reach out to me. But then she reaches out to you in a way that she would reach out to you if you were her friend. Then at that point, she's not accepting the boundary that you've laid out. And at that point, you can say, okay, look, it's nice to hear from you, but I'm really only interested in continuing a dialogue with you if you wanna talk about how we could potentially reconcile. And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
if you're not... If you don't want to have a conversation about that, I'm afraid, you know, just talking about the girl at work that's getting on your nerves or that, uh, you know, your cousin's got a really bad head cold. I'm not interested in, I'm not interested in having those conversations with you because we're not friends. If you'd like to talk about reconciling, then I'm ready to have that conversation.

Dan:
Yeah, I mean,

Charles:
So

Dan:
easier said than done for sure.

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
I mean, that's,

Charles:
Yeah. I

Dan:
you

Charles:
mean,

Dan:
know, that is the

Charles:
definitely.

Dan:
right way to go about it. And it's a very, a business, it's a very business like attitude to have, and especially with somebody that you've got feelings for and you know, you're probably missing them at this point too. And so, you know, really, you know, you're, you're going to be in a, I don't want to say a weakened state, but you know, you're going to be in a state where, yeah, you haven't had the you know, the usual things that you're used to in terms of the interaction relationship. So, uh, absolutely very easy to say, difficult to do, but I

Charles:
Definitely.

Dan:
think longterm it's, it's going to be the right thing.

Charles:
Yeah, I mean, I've compared it before to. being broken up with on just sort of, I mean, just thinking about the biology of it and the hormones and what your brain does when you've been, I mean, our desire to connect and maintain connections with people is so strong.

Dan:
oxytocin, you know.

Charles:
The oxytocin that goes away, the dopamine that goes away, the cortisol that spikes, it really does, a breakup feels like, especially with someone you've been with for a long time and you're planning a future life together.

Dan:
Yo.

Charles:
It feels like your best friend died on the day you gave up heroin.

Dan:
Oh Jesus.

Charles:
Yeah, that's and I've gone through that a couple of times and that is that is what it feels like and

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
it is brutal. It's it's the worst thing and I mean, yeah, it would I would trade. I would rather feel physical pain any day of the week than go through that. But you know, it's a part of life. It's you know, relationships either somebody dies or somebody breaks up. That's

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
that's what happens with relationships, right?

Dan:
Yeah, it's all of

Charles:
And

Dan:
them.

Charles:
in so many cases, the only. You know, whether you want a reconciliation or you want to minimize long-term pain and recover from the end of the relationship in the healthiest way, in my opinion, going no contact is the way to do that. And so it's, it's almost like there's, there's nothing else that, I mean, almost nothing works to make you feel better, but the only thing that has a chance is no contact.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah. And I hope you've got a long list of things to keep yourself busy so that way you're not ruminating on it, because it's going to be torture with the way our minds work, for sure.

Charles:
Yeah, and some of the things I went through in my last breakup was taking up the saxophone again after I played it in middle school, buying a book on how to learn calligraphy, starting knitting,

Dan:
Oh my gosh.

Charles:
volunteering, working out, going back to the gym where I was working out seven days a week. I mean, there's a lot of things you could do to fill up your time when you're in that situation. And all of them are better than laying in your bed and just thinking about the situation that you're in. but also none of them completely work. That's the other thing to think about as well. None of them make the feelings go away. It's just, oh, I forgot travel. Yes, definitely buy a lot of cheap plane tickets and go to a lot of different cities. Once every three or four weeks, get on a plane and go somewhere and it'll make you feel a little bit better and in some ways it'll make you feel a little bit worse. But it is certainly better than the most extreme things that thankfully I... I have not done, but I know a lot of guys do, which is driving by her house, driving by her job. I

Dan:
Oof.

Charles:
mean, there are a lot of worse things you can do than buying some knitting needles.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
So, but the biggest thing is, you know, when somebody asks for a breakup, give it to them. Don't refuse by either saying, no, you can't have the breakup or by acting in a way that's clear that they can't have the breakup. So, yeah, when adults respect other people, other adults decisions, right. And that's the, that's the thing to remember. And a big part of that is don't continue. seeking out conversations and interactions with somebody who doesn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore.

Dan:
No, it only, you know, only takes one person to break up. It takes

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
two.

Charles:
everybody,

Dan:
It takes two

Charles:
every-

Dan:
to be together. It only takes one person to break up.

Charles:
Everybody has veto power in a relationship,

Dan:
Correct.

Charles:
right?

Dan:
Yes.

Charles:
When it comes to being in the relationship, both people can say, nope, I'm done. And, uh, and yeah, realizing that and, uh, and giving someone that is difficult, but it's required. I mean, if you're going to be an adult who has adult relationships, when, when the other person doesn't want the relationship anymore, you have to respect that, you have to accept that you don't have to like it, but you have to, you have to acknowledge that they have the autonomy to make that decision for themselves.

Dan:
Yeah, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense if you're just trying to, you're selling somebody into being with you, right? Like you shouldn't have to do that, you know? What

Charles:
I would

Dan:
kind

Charles:
argue

Dan:
of relationship,

Charles:
that you can't do that.

Dan:
what kind of relationship is that gonna be? That you've guilted someone into staying with you, right? That

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
doesn't.

Charles:
you, you might be able to guilt them into undoing the breakup, but you can't, you can't sell them into wanting, you can't sell somebody into loving you. You can't sell somebody to one into wanting to be with you. It's just, it's not, uh, and that's

Dan:
Wait,

Charles:
the thing to

Dan:
hold

Charles:
remember.

Dan:
on a second, wait, what did you just say? You said you can't, to undo the breakup? What do you mean by that? Like, you...

Charles:
I mean, you can't talk somebody, you can't sell somebody into

Dan:
you can sell

Charles:
getting

Dan:
somebody

Charles:
back

Dan:
into

Charles:
to

Dan:
on doing a breakup. That's,

Charles:
No, I'm

Dan:
that's

Charles:
saying you

Dan:
like

Charles:
can't.

Dan:
getting you back together again.

Charles:
I'm saying you can't talk. You can't make a good enough sales pitch that somebody, you might be able to talk them into getting back together with you, but you can't talk them into wanting to get back together with you. Really?

Dan:
Yeah, you

Charles:
You've

Dan:
can't talk to some.

Charles:
never been talked into getting back together with someone, Dan?

Dan:
I have.

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
And it's

Charles:
but you

Dan:
not

Charles:
haven't been,

Dan:
worked.

Charles:
but you haven't been talked, right, but you haven't been talked into wanting to do that, you've just been talked into doing it. Do

Dan:
Yes. Right.

Charles:
you understand the distinction I'm drawing?

Dan:
Yeah. Okay. I see you're saying okay, now I do. Now I do.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Yes.

Charles:
So

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
you can, you can browbeat someone and guilt

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
them and, and pitch them into getting back into the relationship.

Dan:
Yes, absolutely.

Charles:
You can't, you can't do any of those things to get them to really want to be back in the relationship.

Dan:
That's cool.

Charles:
You.

Dan:
Okay. Yeah. Now I see the difference. Yeah. And I felt guilty, victim to that for sure. Multiple times I have.

Charles:
I know you have.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Yeah. And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
so, so that's, that's the thing. If, if you, and here's the thing to remember, when someone breaks up with you. the day they decide to break up with you or that they have no option but to break up with you. People don't want to break up with other people, right? It's not fun for either side of the relationship to go through with a breakup. So, when someone breaks up with you, they feel like they don't have any other option. And it's pretty safe to say that their romantic attraction for you is at an all-time low.

Dan:
Hmm, okay.

Charles:
So... The time when you're in the worst possible position. to talk them out of the breakup is when the breakup happens. So

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
as far as they're concerned, you're at your least attractive state when they break up with you.

Dan:
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Charles:
And so when you start trying to sell them on why they shouldn't break up with you, they're getting a sales pitch from what they perceive to be the worst sales person on earth.

Dan:
Yeah. Maybe, maybe because the other factor you need to think about here is from the other perspective is if there were still some good things that maybe it wasn't all bad in the relationship at that point, it's going to be a little bit more fresh. The good things could still be a little bit more fresh. And so maybe, right?

Charles:
I Would say

Dan:
No.

Charles:
that I would say that the cumulative bad thing They only broke up with you because the cumulative bad things are so high that they felt like they had no other choice and So once you start pleading and begging and selling You're just piling more things on the bad pile. You're not you're not taking things off the bad pile You're adding more things to the bad pile

Dan:
I mean, look, I've been talked into getting back together because of what I just said, it was basically there were a lot of good things, just not exactly the way I wanted them to be. And, you know, I fell for some empty promises and things and,

Charles:
I do.

Dan:
you know, and because there were other really good things that made me give a second chance. And I'm not saying I should have. I'm totally not saying it was the right decision by any means, but I feel like if I had more time or more time had passed, I don't know. I don't know if those bad, if those good things would have been any, any worse or better necessarily in terms of allowing me to make a different decision. I'm thinking because they were still fresh and those things were still good, it made it more difficult for me to say, no, we need to stay broken.

Charles:
Here's, I'm gonna disagree with you.

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
if I say anything about specifics about your relationship that you're not comfortable with, then

Dan:
Well,

Charles:
we don't need to put this out there.

Dan:
redact it. Yes.

Charles:
Right, we can redact it or

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
can the whole episode, whatever you wanna do.

Dan:
No,

Charles:
Here's what

Dan:
we're

Charles:
I

Dan:
not

Charles:
will say.

Dan:
kidding episode.

Charles:
What was being sold to you was not the good aspects of the relationship. What was being sold to you was... Hey, Dan, here's a way you can stop feeling bad about breaking up with me and ending this relationship. Here's a way we can get your guilt to go away. Just come

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
back together with me and you won't have these feelings anymore. And I'm not saying that the person

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
was doing anything wrong by doing that. That they're, they're just trying to hold onto the relationship that they didn't want to end,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
but that is the product that was actually being sold was, Hey, it sucks to break up with people. It sucks to be alone. It sucks to feel like you might be the bad guy. I'm going to take all that away from you. If you just get agreed to get back together with me.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah,

Charles:
And again,

Dan:
that's

Charles:
I don't

Dan:
fair.

Charles:
think it was, it wasn't manipulative. It wasn't underhanded when the person was doing this, but, but that is what, that is

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
what you're selling. When you're trying to get somebody back into a relationship, they just ended. What you're selling is, Hey, we can, uh, I've got a way that you can end feeling shitty about yourself in this situation. All you have to do is get back together with me and you won't have those feelings anymore.

Dan:
That's fair.

Charles:
And for a

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
short term, it's true, you know, for the short term, it's, it's accurate. When you get back together with somebody that you just made feel really bad and you just are realizing, oh, I don't have this person to go on dates with or sleep with or have fun with or

Dan:
going trips

Charles:
text

Dan:
with.

Charles:
every, go on trips. Yeah, it's

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
like,

Dan:
that's the worst for me. Yeah.

Charles:
I know, I love going on trips with somebody too.

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
And

Dan:
damn.

Charles:
what you're saying is,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
hey, I know you're having all these feelings about missing these things that we used to do together. I can take those bad feelings away. All you have to do is get back together with me.

Dan:
Yeah. And I was like, sign me up. Or sign me back up. Yeah.

Charles:
Right, but all the problems that caused the breakup in the first place still exist. All the getting back together immediately gets rid of is those bad feelings for

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
time.

Dan:
yeah, I don't like I don't I only have bad feelings. Let's get rid of those

Charles:
Neither do I. It sucks. So anyway. But after more time goes by, after no contact works for a while. Um, this thing called the fading effect bias kicks in

Dan:
Mmm, okay.

Charles:
where your brain tends to maximize the good times and minimize the bad times. And so no contact can lead to somebody, you know, feeling like, uh, hey, maybe I should give this another shot because now, you know, all I'm thinking about every day is what I miss about my partner and not the crappy things that. And so that's, that's where it's the job of the dumpy to actually change the things that led to the breakup. So that, you know, down the road, a month, six months, a year, if the dumper, you know, is, is willing to break no contact by reaching out to the dumpy and the dumpy has actually changed all the crap that led to the breakup. Then a reconciliation in a healthy way might be possible.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But if the dumpy is not willing to let the no contact work. then it's like, you know, then the person who got dumped never has the time and the space to actually work on the things that led to the breakup. Yeah, the dumpy doesn't have time to work on the things and change the things about themselves that led to the breakup and the dumper doesn't have time to actually miss the person that they dumped.

Dan:
Yeah. You know, the other thing to keep in mind here is that, you know, you're assuming that the person who got dumped is, uh, is all at fault here for the relationship, having problems. And, uh, cause you,

Charles:
I don't think I'm

Dan:
you

Charles:
assuming

Dan:
only mentioned,

Charles:
that

Dan:
you only mentioned

Charles:
they're all

Dan:
the dump,

Charles:
at fault.

Dan:
the dump, the dump E working on themselves and not the dumper needing to work on anything.

Charles:
Well,

Dan:
Um,

Charles:
I'm not saying the

Dan:
you

Charles:
dumper

Dan:
know,

Charles:
doesn't need to work on anything. I'm

Dan:
okay.

Charles:
saying that because of the dynamic of what it feels like to dump someone and what it feels like to get dumped by someone, it's usually the dumpy that is the one who's going to do the work, not the dumper.

Dan:
Fair. Yep.

Charles:
You know, so whether the dumper has things that they need to do or, or need to change or not, often, not always, but often it's the dump being dumped seems to be a catalyst for positive change. more

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
than dumping someone is.

Dan:
sure.

Charles:
Which,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
not always, I mean, you know, in many cases the dumpy who has work to do doesn't do any of it. And so they just kinda continue on in their existing patterns. But sometimes, you know, being dumped is enough to catalyze that behavior and say, okay, the person who dumped me said these are the things that I was doing that was getting in the way of of this being an ongoing relationship, maybe I should take care of some of these.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, you got to be open to it. You know, you also need to do it or don't need to. But, you know, I think. You know, I always question, Hey, are you doing this to appease the other person to get back in the relationship? Or are you doing it because you actually see value in it for yourself? And, you know, I think, I think sometimes, especially at our age, it's, it's tough to find. If you're not already doing it for yourself. You know, sometimes it's, I think it falls into the other category.

Charles:
It can. I mean, and really the only way to know is how long somebody sticks with it. You know,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
if you're

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
if you're

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
a year into no contact and you're still in the person you dumped is still in therapy or is still, you know, in some sort of a recovery group or something like that. If if they're sticking with it for a long time, then yeah, it probably wasn't just about getting you back.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But, you know, and whatever it is, if it's the career development, if it's the. You know focusing on their own mental and physical health if somebody gets into all those things and they stick with it for a long time Then maybe it did start out as a way to I want to get my partner back But you know again if you're a year 18 months two years into some of these behaviors Then

Dan:
Yeah, that's at that

Charles:
at

Dan:
point.

Charles:
some point

Dan:
That's,

Charles:
it probably stops

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
being about getting somebody back and it probably starts being about oh Yeah, I should have been doing these things

Dan:
Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Charles:
And unfortunately, time is really the only way to know what the motivation is. You know, if somebody, no, don't leave me. I'll start doing fill in the blank and then you take them back a week later. Then yeah, they probably just did those things to get you back. But if you check in with them a year from now and they are still addressing the things that you feel was the reason you couldn't be in a relationship with them. Well, then maybe some long lasting changes. has taken place and maybe the reason that you broke up with him isn't a reason to not be in a relationship with him anymore.

Dan:
Hmm, possibly possibly.

Charles:
Possibly.

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
So,

Dan:
do

Charles:
but

Dan:
we

Charles:
anyway, no contact, in my opinion, is the way you figure that out. You distance yourself from someone who doesn't want the same level of interaction with you. And again, no contact doesn't only work in breakups. It works in any time that somebody is communicating to you, hey, you're a little closer to me than I'd like you to be right now. It can be, you know, a... in early relationship, they're a little less responsive than you would like them to be. Or it could be, you know, your partner of years and years is saying that, hey, I feel smothered by this relationship, I need some space. And in my opinion, no contact works in all those scenarios.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, it's on paper. It's easy to do. In actuality, it's almost it requires a lot of changes to happen at the same time.

Charles:
Yeah, I mean you were close when I went through my last breakup and it was difficult for me to not reach out to

Dan:
Those are a

Charles:
my

Dan:
lot

Charles:
girlfriend

Dan:
of habits that

Charles:
and

Dan:
are

Charles:
my

Dan:
that

Charles:
ex-girlfriend and say, hey,

Dan:
need to change. Yeah.

Charles:
I miss you, I want to get back together. But I knew it wasn't in my best interest, it wasn't in her best interest, so I didn't

Dan:
a lot of habits that we get into that have to change. And sometimes those are daily habits too. So it's a lot to deal with for sure.

Charles:
Yep. All right. So we're at 45 minutes. You want to stop there?

Dan:
Yeah, we can we can call it a day.

Charles:
God, this guy's opinion on apologizing. There's a couple things in there that I agree with, but it's very... I mean, he sounds like a psycho when it comes to his position on offering apologies in your relationship. And so,

Dan:
It's a good tease for the

Charles:
I'm gonna

Dan:
next

Charles:
have

Dan:
episode.

Charles:
a lot to say. Yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I'm gonna have a lot to disagree with on the next

Dan:
Excellent.

Charles:
episode. Alright.

Dan:
Looking forward to it.

Charles:
I will talk with you later, Dan.

Dan:
All right. Have a good

Charles:
Take

Dan:
one.

Charles:
it easy. Bye.

Dan:
Bye.