Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Updates, Opinions, and Controversies!

August 08, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles Calabritto & Dan Littman Episode 93
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Updates, Opinions, and Controversies!
Show Notes Transcript

After pre-recording a few episodes, we came back to recording new episodes last Friday (August 4, 2023) and mostly talked about what's been going on with us, with a little divisive political and societal commentary--fun!

Support the show

Dan:
Good morning, Charles. How are you?

Charles:
Dan, I am spectacular. How are you?

Dan:
I'm well. It's been a while since we've done this. I feel like we've been on vacation from actually recording for quite a while. And so kind

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
of shaking off the rust a little bit here.

Charles:
Yeah, we, uh, we banked a few episodes and then most of the time you and I've been together has been, uh, accomplishing RV related business or working on the studio.

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
or monk

Dan:
we've definitely

Charles:
or just,

Dan:
been busy,

Charles:
or just,

Dan:
just

Charles:
or

Dan:
not podcast

Charles:
I

Dan:
busy.

Charles:
was going to say, or just monkey business where we're just socializing and going out for sushi and hanging out. We've been doing some of that too.

Dan:
A little bit of that, you know, not quite as much as the other stuff.

Charles:
Right. Yeah. So let's discuss some updates. So have you made any significant purchases recently?

Dan:
As a matter of fact, I have, I, um, I was talked into purchasing a recreational vehicle.

Charles:
Yes, yes, you were. And I'm one of my, uh, one of my most proud accomplishments of the last couple of years is talking to you into, uh, into that the, uh, I was telling Renata about it this morning. Cause I had told her when you and I went to go pick it up, it was a day that I normally have therapy. And so I realized

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
that

Dan:
wow.

Charles:
the day before and I texted her to say, Hey, uh, this Wednesday I am out. Dan and I are going to pick up his RV. And I promised I would send her pictures. Um, which I just got around to doing this morning. And, uh, like everyone who I send a picture of your RV to, they were very impressed and how, with how nice it looked and how pretty it looked and how clean it looked,

Dan:
That's what sold me.

Charles:
I,

Dan:
That's why I bought it. Yeah.

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
Uh, yeah.

Charles:
And, uh, yeah, I told her my, my next step in, in your, uh, in the seduction of your lifestyle will be to make sure you enjoy it so much that you decide to do it full time and you start making some real money, renting out your house.

Dan:
Right, right, right. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, listen, um, that's not, that's not too far off. It's nice enough. So we'll see, we'll see how that goes part time and, uh, for some long weekends. And, uh, yeah, after that, well, you know, I'm, I'm definitely perhaps open to it because I do have a lot of space here that I'm really not using. Uh, and I could, I could, you know, make a couple of bucks from, from renting out the house for sure. Um, so just want to also thank you for, for all your, your assistance with, uh, you know, figuring out, you know, what to get finding the RV that, you know, was, was a good deal, you know, all the, all the unknowns, uh, that really have prevented me from doing this and taking action. So I did look into purchasing an RV years ago and even renting one. And, you

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
know, I was really surprised at how nice a lot of them are inside, but. I

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
was looking at some, you know, that would actually had motor in there and it was just,

Charles:
Hmm.

Dan:
you know, prohibitively expensive to even rent to try out, you

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
know?

Charles:
you

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
were, you were looking at the class C's right? Those, those are

Dan:
correct.

Charles:
the ones that are basically like a truck cab with the, your primary bed is above the cab

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
for those

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
who are

Dan:
and,

Charles:
into the

Dan:
and

Charles:
lingo.

Dan:
I'm thinking, and I'm thinking, well, right. I'm like, I don't have a truck. I can't tow anything. So of course, I'm going to go for something that's got an engine in it, right? Like, why not?

Charles:
Yeah, right.

Dan:
And, and, you know, then you're like, Oh, well, you can just rent a truck. And I'm like, well, why didn't I think of that? So the advantage of, of having you, my back pocket here, uh, and whispering in my ear, whether it's, whether it's on the devil side of the angel side of my, my shoulders here, um, both, you know, you've had five years of experience doing this. And so

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
that, you know, and, and knowing, you know, what to do, what not to do. And so, I mean, you've been an invaluable resource and there's no way, again, I would have done this if I didn't, you know, have you, you know, kind of guiding me along the way for this. So just want to officially say, you know, I really appreciate it and thank you. And I'm, I'm excited for it. And you know, it's, it's made this so much easier, you know, and anybody who's like into, you know, who's thinking about getting into the lifestyle, I say, send Charles an email at Charles at mindfully masculine.com and you, you know, you can hire him to be a, you know, an RV lifestyle coach for you. So he can, he can definitely provide you with some, some great information, you know, off top of his head. And yeah, he he's going to save you a lot of time, headache and money and aggravation. Holy cow. So absolutely worth investing in purchasing, seeing if you can negotiate a rate. He hasn't even thought, this is just me rambling at this point, offering up his services that he's not, he hasn't even been consulted about. So you're gonna have to work out the hourly rate with him. So maybe he'll give you a package deal. Who knows if you're a listener.

Charles:
You, you know, Dan, I, uh, as, as you brought that up, I did start thinking, you know, cause I sent you that video this morning from that guy who, um, you know, basically helps people develop their coaching business. And, uh, one of the things he said was nobody wants a generalist. Everybody wants a specialist. And, you know, just thinking about it, you know, with the economy and the housing market, where it is right now, I, that is something I'm going to give some serious thought to, because I, I have been through the transition of going from a guy who owned a house with a mortgage to, you know, getting rid of the house,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
getting rid of my possessions, you know, doing my own sort of stumbling through my needs analysis of what I would need for an RV to be able to live comfortably and, and keep my career on the projection that I wanted it to, and, and be able to have the social relationships that I wanted to have while still, you know, being on the road full time and, uh, Yeah, maybe, maybe there is a, uh, an ebook or a coaching practice or all of the above in that experience. I don't know.

Dan:
I do absolutely there is

Charles:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Dan:
because, because I mean, you know, I'm happy to create a testimonial for you in terms of one, this, you know, I wouldn't even have done this because I would have hit the first stumbling block and having no perspective or experience around it. I just would have been like, this just seems too difficult to do. Um, oh, wait a minute. I can't. So for example here, right? Finding a campground here in Florida that you can you know, stay at for more than a month or two has been a little bit of a challenge. Uh, and, uh,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
especially, you know, when the, when the winter season is coming up and you need to get on that right away. So I, it's July, there's no way, or it's August. Oh my God, where'd July

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
go? Oh, but you know, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought I need to worry about like December and January now, you know, and you know, you were like, no, gotta get on this. And you know, after calling around, we only Holy cow, you know, there aren't a lot of places. And then, you know, we've got restrictions. Some of them are 55 and older. And so all these things, I would have been like, holy cow. And I don't know if I would have even looked into that before I got the camper. Unfortunately,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
we started to do

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
that at least, right? And that was, you know, and again, this is all under your guidance. And so, you know, you could charge a pretty penny. I mean, also, you know, hey, you know, finding an RV that was a great deal and that it was local. So I didn't realize, you know, what kind of a, you know, if you don't have a truck to tow it. how expensive it's going to be if you have to go all the way across the country to, to pick up the RV and tow it back or have a service do that. That's thousands of dollars versus, you know, maybe paying a little bit more or whatever if it's local. So all of these things are problem points that you basically solve and solved for me and saved me real tangible calculatable dollars. And so you know, you should definitely be getting a portion of that. You're not going to be getting that from me. I'm going to give you a couple of free dinners, but

Charles:
Well, I was going

Dan:
for

Charles:
to say

Dan:
your

Charles:
you,

Dan:
future clients,

Charles:
you did.

Dan:
you know.

Charles:
Yeah. You, you did buy me a can of, uh, ultra strawberry dream monster and a new pair of, uh, work gloves when we were at Walmart and,

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
uh, yeah, the, uh,

Dan:
And some barbecue and some barbecue. Don't forget about the barbecue.

Charles:
Oh, that's true.

Dan:
Yeah, that's

Charles:
You did

Dan:
right.

Charles:
get me

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
some good barbecue from my,

Dan:
Mm hmm.

Charles:
from one of my favorite places. The, uh, here in, uh, on the East coast of Florida, we've got a, a barbecue chain called Dustin's and it's, you know, it's like a sunny type place, but I like it a little bit better. It's, it's not a bubble. Barbecue. It's not even a four rivers, but it's very consistent. And I, uh, and I like. I like their food and I was a good boy. I ate like three plates from the salad bar and one small

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
plate of meat because I'm still, uh, still on my, my diet and

Dan:
keto,

Charles:
fitness, uh,

Dan:
your keto journey.

Charles:
regime

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
for the next hundred something days, but, um, yeah, so it has been, it's been a pleasure. It's been a blast shopping with you and helping you. I mean, these are the kinds of logistical challenges I really, I really enjoy. It really gets my motor running, trying to. to find a, the best solution to a problem. And also the other thing I really enjoy doing is trying to find that balance of, okay, I've got to accomplish this and how do I get to the 80 or 90% functional solution and not get caught up spending that extra 10 or 20% to find the perfect solution that I don't really

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
need. And,

Dan:
right.

Charles:
and I mean, that's one of the things I enjoy about the line of work that you and I have been in where it's like, you know, you've always got to constantly be measuring yourself and checking yourself of, okay, am I, am I going down rabbit holes to get the a hundred percent solution when I've already been sitting on the 80% solution for three days and it's going to work

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
just fine.

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
And, uh, you know,

Dan:
And that

Charles:
that's,

Dan:
only comes

Charles:
that is

Dan:
with

Charles:
something

Dan:
experience.

Charles:
that

Dan:
That only comes

Charles:
you

Dan:
with

Charles:
really

Dan:
experience

Charles:
does.

Dan:
because

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you don't know whether you need that extra 20%, right?

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
You really, most,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
if you've never done it before, right? And so what is that worth to you? And sometimes to get that last 20%, you know, sometimes could be either really expensive or you have to completely undo what you've already done. I mean,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
yeah. So that again. If you're even thinking about the lifestyle, you got some questions, shoot them over to Charles and you'll see he's a pro.

Charles:
Yeah. And I, uh, and I was just thinking the, the camper that I ended up getting, um, I didn't even know it was a potential floor plan until I talked to my buddy, AJ, um, who I used to work with and, uh, um, we were in, uh, our, our fraternal organization together. And I told him what I was looking for in a floor plan. And I told him the two that I was considering. And then he was the one that said, Oh, well, have you thought about, you know, Jacob's got something that has those same things. Have you looked at theirs at all? And then, you know, I created a internet search that would send me alerts. And then that's how I found this one. So, you know,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
it all, um, helping people out that way, it kind of does, you know, trickle down when, uh, somebody's willing to give you advice, it puts you on a path that leads you to get gained the experience that you can then help somebody else out.

Dan:
Right? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, yeah, we've been busy with that. I was up, I woke up in the middle of the night to get a little snack cause I was hungry and ended up spending an hour on Amazon, uh, ordering all the stuff I needed for

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
the, for the camper last night, or this morning, I should say at between two and three AM. Uh, so all that stuff's gonna be coming this weekend. Uh, yeah, uh, I'm excited

Charles:
Nice.

Dan:
for it.

Charles:
I had a little bit of that time this morning too, where I woke up and couldn't, couldn't get back to sleep. So I did some browsing and a little bit of shopping on, uh, on my phone.

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's probably the worst thing, you know, both, both eating in the middle of the night and turning your phone on in the middle of the night are probably two things

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
you shouldn't be doing, but

Dan:
correct.

Charles:
it's, uh, it's, it's very hard to say no to that. When, when you wake up and you feel wide awake, it's like, okay, what do I do now? Um, Okay, so, uh, yeah, I'm excited about you getting all your stuff. Did, oh, did you shop for any string lights yet? Have you found a set of those that you

Dan:
No,

Charles:
like?

Dan:
that's one thing I haven't gotten yet, because that's kind of decorative fluff stuff. I was focused on plates and bowls and knives and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
all that stuff,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
right?

Charles:
definitely.

Dan:
The houseware

Charles:
You definitely

Dan:
essentials.

Charles:
want to go,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
definitely go with unbreakables when it comes to, um, mugs and plates and stuff like that. Um, I either use corral stuff that you just get at Walmart or target, uh, or I use, uh, paper plates because yeah, you just, you just don't, you want to minimize the number of things that can break when you, when you hit a bump and it's been tough for me because I'm a, uh, you know, back when I had my house, I was a bit of a mug collector, like that was kind of my go to souvenir when I would go someplace.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
But you know, ceramic is not is not what you want in a in a box that you're towing down the interstate at 70 miles an hour. So

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I've mostly learned to switch to these you know, Yeti and Ozark Trail insulated steel mugs. And mostly given up on my picking up a ceramic mug when I when I go someplace on a trip. But let me talk to you about that right now. I booked another trip this morning before we got on.

Dan:
Oh wow.

Charles:
Um, I have been watching, uh, the Instagram account of the Cincinnati zoo for about a year, almost exactly a year, because a year ago, uh, they had a brand new baby hippo that was born there, his name is

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
Fritz

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
and his older sister lives there and her name is Fiona.

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
And they do a really good job on their, uh, on their Instagram, sharing posts and stories about Fritz and Fiona and how cute they are and yada, yada. And so, uh, He'd been on my list that the two of those hippos have been on my list to go visit because as you know, I love visiting new cities and I love visiting their zoos and so I decided to pull up a frontier today. Well, first I looked

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
at my sky scanner app, which is what I use for my cheap flights and I found a itinerary that goes up on a Saturday around 6 a.m. and comes back home that same Saturday at 6 a.m. for

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
$53. So.

Dan:
Wow.

Charles:
So for 53 bucks, I've got a round trip nonstop flight and the ticket to the zoo is 24 bucks. And that just feels like an amazing way to spend a Saturday to me. Now, obviously

Dan:
when,

Charles:
as it

Dan:
uh,

Charles:
gets

Dan:
which

Charles:
closer,

Dan:
Saturday

Charles:
I

Dan:
is,

Charles:
will,

Dan:
which Saturday is going to be.

Charles:
this is, I want to say the 19th maybe?

Dan:
Mm hmm.

Charles:
Yeah, we're

Dan:
OK.

Charles:
not doing anything that day. Are we? I didn't have anything

Dan:
No.

Charles:
on my calendar, so I hope I'm open.

Dan:
For August, correct?

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
Yeah, no, we don't have.

Charles:
Correct. Perfect. So, um, yeah, I'm going to, I'm just going to wake up early, go park my car at the airport, fly up, spend my day, uh, at the zoo, maybe, maybe a little bit of, uh, of Roman, the city of Cincinnati. If the weather's nice and, uh, And then

Dan:
Nice.

Charles:
get back on a plane that night and fly back. So again, I love the, uh, I love the sky scanner app. I always use that to, to find the deal. And then once I find the deal, I just book it straight through the, uh, through the airline

Dan:
Awesome.

Charles:
and that's

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
what I

Dan:
man,

Charles:
did.

Dan:
it's gonna be great.

Charles:
Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. The only thing I'm, I've yet to decide is, am I going to take public transportation, uh, meaning the bus when I land at the airport? Uh, the city bus, or am I going to do like a tour or try to do a cheap car rental?

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And, uh, we'll have to see the, the one thing I noticed when I was in Philly, um, the, I took the bus, but it was sort of a roundabout way to get me from the, it didn't go straight from the airport to downtown. It kind of went around the perimeter of the city and I'm pretty sure I was in the kind of neighborhood where, um, where the fresh Prince got in that fight and his mom got scared. So he had to move with his auntie and his uncle in Bel Air. It looked like that kind of neighborhood.

Dan:
Oh, it didn't go

Charles:
So

Dan:
through Bel Air?

Charles:
it did not go through, it did not go through Bel

Dan:
Huh.

Charles:
Air. It was the, it was West Philadelphia. No, no question.

Dan:
Oh, okay.

Charles:
Well, maybe it was, I think it was West. I don't know. I'm, I'm not great with directions unless I'm looking at a map, but I went through some neighborhoods, I wouldn't say they were sketchy. I mean, they, they were a little sketchy. Yeah, I'll say it. They were sketchy.

Dan:
That's fine.

Charles:
But yeah, so that's the only thing. The other thing about my last trip to Philadelphia, I don't know how much we talked about on the podcast, but I don't think we recorded one since then. I did, you know,

Dan:
Mm-mm.

Charles:
I love my solo travel. I did a solo trip to Philadelphia. Again, went to the zoo, did a food tour, did a like spooky tour, went to the zoo. I mean, just all the stuff I always do when I go to a city. And it was fun. This time I did not find a great option for a hostel. Uh, but I did find a cheap option for a hotel by the airport and, uh, man, being able to, um, walk to the bathroom without any clothes on, take a shower, walk back to your, to your suitcase with no clothes on, you know, I love my hostel deals, but being able to have your own room and your own privacy

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
is, is often worth a premium. I just don't know. I mean, is it worth the premium in New York city? Usually not for me. but the room I got by the Philly airport was $61 a night or something like that at a La Quinta with inside hallways. So it was, it was, you know, a normal business traveler hotel for not much money.

Dan:
Listen

Charles:
So I

Dan:
to

Charles:
pulled

Dan:
you,

Charles:
the trigger on it and

Dan:
Mr. Fancy Pants with

Charles:
I,

Dan:
Inside Hallways. Ha ha

Charles:
exactly,

Dan:
ha.

Charles:
I indulged myself a little bit. And I gotta say, it was, it was kind of nice. I didn't have, I didn't have one mean lady and one, and one. twin size bunk bed yelling at some guy and another twin size bunk bed and telling him to stop snoring. There was

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
none of that kind of stuff, which, uh, you know, the, the first night we were at keto con, there was a little bit of that in Austin. And so while I was out that following day, I bought earplugs and Nyquil and overdosed

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
on both of them the following night. And I have no idea what happened. I could have been world war three in there and I was zonk. completely out. So I might've been the snorer that following those following nights, but that first night I was like, Ooh, I don't want to, I don't want to live through this again. So I, I dosed myself to the, to the point where it wasn't my problem.

Dan:
Yeah, I'm not going to chance my oversensitive sleep with adding complications or potential complications like that. I just can't,

Charles:
Yeah, I get it.

Dan:
you know, yeah.

Charles:
Yeah, it's not, it's not for everybody. It's, uh, it's just, I, I get, I get so much out of feeling like I got the cheapest possible bed in an expensive

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
city

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and, and I've done it enough knowing that 75% of the time it's completely fine. There's no issues whatsoever. It's just that 25% of the time. And so far, every time there's been a 25% situation. If I take two extra strength nightquills, I don't know if it happens the following night or not. It doesn't matter.

Dan:
Right, yeah.

Charles:
I sleep through almost everything. So, okay, couple other updates. I think I'm gonna go to that show with you tonight if I'm still invited.

Dan:
Yeah, absolutely. There's plenty of room. I think he'd be great for you to come.

Charles:
All right, I'm

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
going

Dan:
Kurt,

Charles:
to.

Dan:
you know, said, you know, I talked to Kurt about it and he was, he was excited. When I thought you were going to go, I told him and he's like, Oh cool. So I, yeah, that'd be great.

Charles:
All right. So I have to, uh, add it to my list today to go to probably like guitar center or someplace like that

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
to buy some, some earplugs that are made for not listening when you don't want to listen to music that's too loud, that it will hurt your ears. I'm

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
going to get some of those. Um, I'm going to definitely overdose on theanine and, uh, possibly the other stuff. Tear, tear zine.

Dan:
Tyrosine.

Charles:
You're going to have that right.

Dan:
I will have some

Charles:
Bring

Dan:
tyrosine

Charles:
some along.

Dan:
for you. I will.

Charles:
Okay. Um, maybe some, uh, maybe I'll do one of the really big monsters to get that touring in me.

Dan:
Wait, they make them bigger than that can there?

Charles:
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Absolutely.

Dan:
Really?

Charles:
They,

Dan:
Oh my

Charles:
they

Dan:
god,

Charles:
have

Dan:
that's

Charles:
one that

Dan:
funny.

Charles:
I, they may have one that they have one that's at least one and a half times that size. They may

Dan:
where

Charles:
have

Dan:
you like

Charles:
one that's

Dan:
need

Charles:
double.

Dan:
two hands. It's like.

Charles:
Yeah, exactly.

Dan:
Oh

Charles:
So

Dan:
damn.

Charles:
yeah, I, uh, my, my goal is to

Dan:
Yeah, the caffeine

Charles:
not

Dan:
you're gonna

Charles:
be

Dan:
need some

Charles:
so

Dan:
caffeine.

Charles:
annoyed by the setting that I ruin it for anybody else. So I want to, uh, I want to try

Dan:
I

Charles:
to pull that off.

Dan:
think if you put together that supplement regimen, I think you're gonna have a great time.

Charles:
Okay. We should, uh, we should do an episode on, on that, on those supplements at some point where we, uh, examine, you know, what, when people have social anxiety or whatever. Uh, which is, you know, it's not really something that I, for my, I think I probably do have social anxiety, but for pretty much my whole life, I manage it by just not going to places I don't want to be

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
or places that I might not want to be. Which could mean that there are some valuable human interactions that I'm leaving on the table because I instantly judge that doesn't sound like my kind of place and I just don't go there. And so there, there could be some fun things that I'm missing out on as a result of that, but, uh, I mean, the other thing is I will be driving myself. So I'll have my own car. I'll have my own keys. I,

Dan:
and you can leave at any time.

Charles:
I don't, yeah, I was gonna say I don't drink, so I don't have to be like, Oh, I got to

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
hang out until I sober up. I can't leave right now. That's not a factor. So yeah, I am setting my up. myself up for success. Maybe I'll like it. You know,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
stranger

Dan:
that's great.

Charles:
things could happen.

Dan:
Right? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, as long as you're going in with an open mind and not, you know, saying, oh, definitely not, you know, I think that's the key to success.

Charles:
Yeah, look, I mean, I used to not be able to stand going to the beach. That was a real issue for me a few years ago.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Um, but you know, my, my girlfriend at the time really enjoyed going and I really enjoyed being around her. So I was like, okay, let's, let's see if I can offset what I don't like with what I do like, and now I can enjoy a beach day. Um, the big factor for me is the water has to be comfortable enough for me to swim in it because if it's If it's just laying in the sand for multiple hours at a time, I get way too bored. And so I need to be able to sort of break it up. And it's, it's not just the activity. It's the sensations, you know, the laying on a towel, being hot, covered in suntan lotion. I don't like that feeling for long periods of time, but going and swimming in the water for a little while breaks the monotony of that, that physical

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
feeling. You know what I

Dan:
I

Charles:
mean?

Dan:
mean, I'm the same way. I'm, I'm good for about a half hour doing any of that. And then I got to get up, either go to the, you know, either walk on the beach, you know, walk over

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
to a restaurant, you know, or, you know, go in the water, you know, fly kite, whatever it is. Yeah. I just can't,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I, and a little bit more mental than physical for me, but, um, in Florida it's kind of physical cause I'm sweating my balls off. So

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
it's bad. Yeah. The idea that there are people who, you know, can sort of enjoy, take the pleasure. I've just, you know, I'm going to pop in my AirPods and I'm going to put on the

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
exact right formulation of sun tan slash sunscreen, and I'm going to lay out for an hour on my stomach, then I'm going to roll over and lay out on my back and I'm going to work on my tan and just essentially do what I would consider nothing for two hours.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Like I just don't have it in me. I'm

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
not wired

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
for it.

Dan:
I mean, you know, that's,

Charles:
Alright,

Dan:
that's

Charles:
so...

Dan:
their thing. You know, same, same thing, you know, when you're into, uh, you know, working out or, or whatever that is, right? You've got your methods, you know, making your keto chow shakes. Remember you were, you're like

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
freaking out because I wasn't making it exactly the way you make it. You know, you were very precise with it. And normally most stuff I am,

Charles:
Holt,

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
how, how

Dan:
ironically,

Charles:
dare you number one, that is a gross, that is a gross mischaracterization.

Dan:
that's true.

Charles:
Everybody does not have to make it the way I make it. You just have to have a specific ritual and measured

Dan:
Uh,

Charles:
method of going

Dan:
I just,

Charles:
about it that you,

Dan:
okay.

Charles:
it can be yours, but you just have to repeat it every time that I'm in your presence.

Dan:
Oh, oh yeah.

Charles:
I'm not

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
saying my way is the only way. I'm just saying you

Dan:
Got

Charles:
have to have

Dan:
it.

Charles:
a way.

Dan:
I have to have a way. Yeah, I don't. I

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
don't. It's just like, whatever. I'm like, maybe I'll have pudding and maybe it'll be a little thicker this time because I want to chew on it because I like the peanut butter taste a little bit more,

Charles:
Oh God, it was killing

Dan:
right?

Charles:
me, Dan.

Dan:
Versus

Charles:
It was,

Dan:
like the vanilla,

Charles:
oh, watching.

Dan:
I'll make that into a milkshake because that tastes like a McDonald's vanilla milkshake to me and I'll let that, I'll make that all smooth, you know?

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
So yeah. Yeah, I just

Charles:
uh,

Dan:
kind of, I

Charles:
it's

Dan:
wing

Charles:
so-

Dan:
it with a protein powder. I always wing it.

Charles:
That was that was

Dan:
And it's one

Charles:
it

Dan:
of

Charles:
was

Dan:
the few

Charles:
comically

Dan:
things that I actually wing

Charles:
it was

Dan:
with.

Charles:
comically

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
difficult for me to watch you do that

Dan:
Well,

Charles:
the other day when you

Dan:
you

Charles:
got

Dan:
held,

Charles:
when you

Dan:
I had no idea. You held it in pretty well, so.

Charles:
I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe he's doing this where, yeah,

Dan:
Ugh.

Charles:
I, I have definitely, and you know, it's not a, it's not a ritual where it's like, you know, Oh no, my mother's going to die if I don't do this exactly. It's not an OCD

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
thing. It's just a, like, like I've told you, I'm so particular about the way things taste. And once I, once I settle on a method that leads to a consistently good taste for something

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
that I know is good for me, then It's like, okay, I can't mess with this at all because if I do, I might not like it. And then if I don't like

Dan:
rolling

Charles:
it, I

Dan:
the

Charles:
know

Dan:
dice

Charles:
I'm not going to do it. Yeah.

Dan:
yeah

Charles:
So, so

Dan:
i

Charles:
I,

Dan:
got it

Charles:
yeah, it's, it's funny. Um, okay. So we are going to, uh, we're going to go to the show tonight. Uh, are you still thinking you don't have the, you're not going to have the gas, especially if you stayed up all night ordering stuff on Amazon, you're going

Dan:
No,

Charles:
to have the gas to do anything first? No. Okay.

Dan:
I'm not. I also I also need to go to the gym and lift today. I'm due for that. And so I'm absolutely going to have to take a nap after that. So no way. Yeah, I'm not going to have the gas for dinner first. So, you know, we'll just we'll meet at the at the menu.

Charles:
Okay, what, uh, so the show starts at nine, which is

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
that's insane. What are they doing? What's why has anything started nine? That's crazy. I went to see the, uh, the Barbie movie and it started at nine or nine 15.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And man, I got to tell you, I was dying to stay awake. I mean, not cause I love the movie. I thought the movie was great. And I, I'm looking forward to when you finally see it so we can, uh, we can talk about the themes in it a little bit, because I think there,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
there are some really interesting, um, questions and answers in the movie about, you know, themes of masculinity, femininity, uh, patriarchy, feminism. I mean, all, all really important stuff to stuff that I think most people should probably have an opinion on, even if it's not my opinion, I feel like, you know,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you should, everybody should have an understanding of what those words mean and how they mean different things to different people and you know, why, why they're so charged in our society. And, and I really do believe it's because. When. when one side of the political spectrum in our country uses a word like feminism or patriarchy, they often mean something completely different than what the other side means. And so they just yell past each other whenever those topics come up. And

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
so...

Dan:
you got to be able to come together on definitions before you can even have a conversation about things. I think, you know, people

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
have

Charles:
there's

Dan:
different

Charles:
a,

Dan:
ideas

Charles:
I've,

Dan:
of what words mean. Yeah, it's a problem.

Charles:
I've got a, a book, or at least I used to have a book on, uh, the Trivium, which is a Latin term, uh, for the combination of three things, grammar, logic, and rhetoric. And, uh, it got into a lot about how basically those three things are a progression where first you have to understand grammar. then you have to understand logic and only then can you engage in useful rhetoric.

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
So if, if you don't, a grammar, a lot of that being the, you know, how do you, how do you put ideas, how do you turn them into words? You know, what are the definitions? What's the vocabulary that you have to

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
understand before you can try to logic your way in or out of anything, and then how can you enjoy rhetoric with somebody who you disagree with? If you don't have a foundation of logic, if you don't understand how logic works, how can you have a productive disagreement with somebody? If you don't understand each other's words and you don't understand how logic works.

Dan:
Yeah, well, you've just explained why social media is as toxic as it is, right? Because those things are really a lot of time and effort and work to be able to achieve, especially on a on a large scale basis when you've got lots of people. So

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
that's.

Charles:
And, uh, yeah, both, both social media and even before social media, you know, you could watch it fall apart on the Sunday morning chat shows,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
you know, where

Dan:
sure.

Charles:
politicians

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and journalists would get on there and argue about stuff. And it's like, okay, these, these people, they're using the same words, but they clearly don't mean the same things by these words. And so, yeah, that's, uh, you know, in a, in a great shortcut that I learned in some of the, um, the podcasts and books that I've, I've listened to over the last five or six years. A great shortcut when you're arguing with somebody is, uh, steel manning, which is the opposite of straw manning. You know, when you, when you straw man somebody's argument, you make basically a, a lightweight false version of their argument that's easier to attack. You know,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
whenever, basically if you're arguing with somebody and whenever one person says, Oh, so what you're saying is get ready

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
for bullshit.

Dan:
Blah, blah, blah. Right? Yeah.

Charles:
Exactly. Because that's never what you're saying. That's, that's the. That's the worst interpretation of what you're saying because it's the easiest one to break down and attack. So

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
the

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
opposite of that is steel manning where basically, you know, you and I are having an argument, Dan and I say, okay, Dan, I'm going to try to restate your position in my own words and don't let me move on until you agree that what I'm saying is exactly what you feel or think. And so

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
when

Dan:
that's

Charles:
you and

Dan:
smart.

Charles:
I both do that, when we can both put the other person's argument in terms that the original person is willing to sign off on. Okay. Now we can have a discussion. And so that's, you know, if you're arguing with somebody about anything that you find to be important or worth persuading somebody, I say always jump to that. Always jump to steel manning, always jump to saying, Hey, look, to make sure I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try to state your position in a way that you'll agree that I've, that I understand where you are. And if you can both do that for each other, then you can have a good conversation. But if you're just looking to dunk on people and score on them, You're not going to put the time in to do that. And you, you might get to feel like you, you know, scored a victory on somebody. You can go back to your friends who all believe the same things that you believe. And you can be like, man, I really showed that guy, but you're not really moving any kind of a meaningful football down the field.

Dan:
Right. You know, and the other thing too is not everybody is open to having their mind changed about a topic, right? So something that I haven't really used very often because I don't really bother trying to change people's opinions so much anymore is, you know, you would ask me, Hey, if I was to present, present some sort of information or evidence to the contrary of what, you know, you believe, would you be open to changing your mind? And You know, I haven't necessarily thrown that line out there as awkwardly as I did just now. And it would be an awkward kind of thing to do. But you know, my opinion is most people aren't having a conversation because they want to have their mind changed.

Charles:
Yeah. And that's, and look, I, I will

Dan:
Or

Charles:
respect,

Dan:
even open to it. Yeah.

Charles:
I'll respect, there are two kinds of people that I will, I will gladly hand my respect to. And the, the first one is the one who says, you know, okay, if you want to convince me, here's what, here's the kind of evidence I would need to see to be convinced.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I respect that guy. I also respect the guy who says, no, uh, this belief is really part of who I am. And there is no evidence you can give me. That's going to get me to change my mind.

Dan:
Yeah. Cause it saves you time and energy and effort as well. It's, it's kind of doing you a favor, right? So you're not trying to,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
you

Charles:
And,

Dan:
know, you're beating your head against a wall.

Charles:
and listen, whatever, whatever somebody says, this topic is something that I am unwilling to, you know, there is no evidence that will get me to change my mind on this topic, they have just told you what the religion is, and that is a valuable insight into who somebody is.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And it doesn't have to be, it's not about, you know, what their named religion, whether they're Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever, when somebody says. There's this thing in my life that I put on this pedestal where I don't care to see evidence that could convince me that it's false. I don't want to debate it. I don't want to, I don't even want to go through the exercise of possibly changing my mind on this. That, by the way, I define religion is a religion.

Dan:
Yeah. Unwavering faith and belief. I mean, that's one of the reasons why a lot of us like Huberman is he's, he actively often says, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm wrong about this, or I was wrong about that. And he, he doesn't pretend to have all the answers forever in perpetuity. And you know, we'll, we'll modify things. And you know, the, the interesting thing too is because he's willing to be wrong about it. It kind of keeps you wanting to listen. Cause, Oh, wait a minute. Maybe there's more information here that he just discovered that changes something. So I better get the updates, right? Better get the latest. So,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
but,

Charles:
which is, I mean, yeah,

Dan:
and

Charles:
that's,

Dan:
he's had other,

Charles:
that's

Dan:
he's other

Charles:
one

Dan:
guests,

Charles:
of the

Dan:
scientists on, and I think that's that from that community science really is, you know, that's, you know, it's evidence-based and they're, you know, they're, they're willing to, you know, be wrong and, and change their opinion on things.

Charles:
Yeah, which is one of the reasons that, you know, during COVID, I hated what became the politicization of the phrase, trust the science. And when people would roll that out, and I always tried to, whenever I heard it, I always tried to correct it to, no, trust the scientific method. Don't trust the science because the science is a snapshot into what we know as mankind today about a given topic. where the scientific method, you know, one of the things that I love that Ricky Gervais always says is, you know, if, if you destroyed every holy book by every religion today and then waited a thousand years, they would not reappear in their exact current format. But if you decide, if you destroyed all the science journals that we have today and waited a thousand years, a thousand years from now, we would have the exact same science that we have today

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
because it's the method. that determines the truth,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
not the, let's take a snapshot of where it exists currently today and then set that up as our authority.

Dan:
Right. Yeah. And, and you know, the other thing too is there's no monopoly on, on science because it is, there are so many variables and factors that need to be taken into account. And that's why they look at meta-analyses like all of the, all of the studies, what do they kind of hint at and what direction, right? Um, and

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
this is, you know, these are, you know, these aren't like laws, like a law of gravity that, you know, the information comes out, these are theories and there's conditions and yeah.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
So,

Charles:
which yeah, that's yeah, that's why I mean, yeah, the, the further you move away from a very concrete observable experiment. The more you have, you try to infer from that, the more that consensus in the, among the scientific community becomes important because, you know, as, as one guy who's not trained in science, I can confirm that gravity exists. But as we, as we move away from something that is that easily observable, that's when we need to start getting dozens or hundreds or thousands of scientists together to look at this issue so that they can all check each other and, and. and rake each other over the coals and test each other and all that stuff. So

Dan:
My peer

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
reviewed

Charles:
I,

Dan:
studies

Charles:
uh,

Dan:
and questions. I mean, the whole purpose of science is to ask questions. And my issue with the whole pandemic thing was when people were asking questions, that stuff was silenced and people were basically humiliated and attacked personally. And it was just, it was despicable. And I know it still happens. And it's just for asking questions. And that's been the thing that bothers me the most you know, hey, if this is real, you know, you should be able to ask a question. And if you're, you know, if you're, you know, if you are, if you are so convincingly right about this, you should welcome questions. You shouldn't have anything to worry about. What do you, you know, you know, it's you're gonna question gravity, you know, I mean, okay, yeah, let's question gravity. Okay, look, see, it's still there, right? You know, it's not a problem, you know, just stop that. That was the silencing and censoring of, of asking questions was something that's still bothering.

Charles:
Are you up to get into that for a second?

Dan:
Sure.

Charles:
Okay, so I would say that the... I don't believe any questions should be silenced, but I do believe as a society, we should recognize when a question, the way it's asked and by who it's asked can have some danger. Okay. If, if I have, for example, if I have an, if I have an 8 PM cable news show where I get, you know, 20 million viewers a night and I just asked the question, okay, if I have AIDS, do I really need to wear a condom when I have sex with somebody? I mean, is that really necessary that I do that? just by asking that question could indirectly lead to somebody getting real sick and having to deal with something because of, I don't have control over the people who are listening to me ask that question.

Dan:
Okay,

Charles:
So

Dan:
so

Charles:
even

Dan:
we'll,

Charles:
if my motives

Dan:
right.

Charles:
are, are pure, it's still possible because of the size of my audience that just by asking that question, that could lead to negative outcomes.

Dan:
It could. Okay. And then the question is, you know, where do you hold personal responsibility? So, you know, the person who's asking this question, right? What are their credentials? Are they, you know, are they just a figurehead on a news station, right? Or, you know, and, and what, what motivations or influences do they have that could be prompting saying a statement like that? These are things that take work and energy. And I understand that, you know, yeah, you know, but, you know, what, again, who is as who is saying the information, what

Charles:
Well,

Dan:
kind of credentials

Charles:
and

Dan:
do

Charles:
that's.

Dan:
they have? Right. And and that's and then yeah, they could influence people. But those people at that some at some point, you know, where does it where does that fall? I got to ask you that, you know, on the personal responsibility side, because, you know, I mean, if they're going to listen to anybody saying anything, well, I mean, you know, they they should be asking a doctor or somebody who's got some credibility and not taking the advice of a talking head.

Charles:
Well, we agree with that a hundred percent, but we

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
also, we also acknowledge that, you know, you and I rub elbows with people every day in our personal and our professional lives that they're pretty much just waiting for someone in a position of higher authority to tell them what to do and how to live. And, and we need to acknowledge that, you know, in a, in a country of 350 million people, there are enough people out there that are just sort of TV sets with open antennas waiting to be told what to do so they can do it. And. Um, you know, I would say one of the big problems that you run into in today's extremely fractured partisan media is audience capture where, you know, I, if I have a big following and I'm making a lot of money, then I know that the philosophical political social beliefs of my audience, they line up pretty close. I mean, if I'm in the

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
business of politics, then most of my

Dan:
Sure.

Charles:
audience is going to believe the same things about the same topics. And if I come out with my views or opinions and I deviate too far from what my audience already believes, then I might not be as successful next week as I was this week. So I, I am financially and, and from a power standpoint too, I am incentivized to just keep telling my people what my people want to hear.

Dan:
Yeah, listen, I mean, it's a business, right? News organizations and these talking heads, it's a business, they're in it for money and to make, you know, and to have followers and everything else like that. And so that's unfortunately that, yeah, you're right. A lot of people operate that way. Doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't mean they should be operating that way. And

Charles:
I would say it's the opposite,

Dan:
I'm not

Charles:
it means...

Dan:
saying, you know, screw them, let them, you know. let them suffer with this wrong information, but you know, you can't really fix that,

Charles:
No,

Dan:
I don't think,

Charles:
I look, I know

Dan:
you know?

Charles:
I, you know, I don't, I don't believe in silencing. I don't believe in using, you know, the government's monopoly on force to silence anyone for pretty much any reason. And I don't even believe in, you know, these huge corporations that are in bed with various governments around the world, um, you know, using their monopolies to silence people either. Um, I don't know what the answer is. I just, I do know that. You know, when, I mean, with COVID we had, basically we had a situation that I didn't like because it was non-scientific people on the left, just saying, trust the science, trust the silence. And then it was non-scientific people on the right saying, do your own research, do your own research. And it's these people who are clashing with each other where just,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I mean, it's like monkeys at the zoo throwing their poop at each other.

Dan:
And that, I mean, I, you know, right. And it's unfortunate. And I think that just speaks to the, the failure of our education system in this country in terms of, you know, at some point, some of us, we, you know, we either were taught the scientific method and a little bit of science and forgot it or don't work in it. So of course we forget it. Um, and,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
and I think the, again, the businesses that we are subjecting ourselves to, which is watching the news and the media. They want us to watch, and so they're going to do and say things that are outrageous and will spur emotional responses and get us to do what they want us to do and watch their programs and watch their ads and consume their products. It's unfortunate that those businesses operate in such a manipulative manner. There's a lot of issues and there's no easy fix for any of it.

Charles:
Yeah, I, uh, I saw an, uh, an interesting, uh, reel on Instagram this week that, uh, really sort of define this problem for me. It's a Congressman, I believe is a democratic Congressman. I don't remember where he's from, but he does these just reels where he talks about what's going on in Washington. And, uh, you know, last week or the week before the house oversight committee had these hearings about UFOs and aliens and stuff like that.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And I believe it was the house oversight committee. I'm pretty sure that's, that's who did it. And, and this guy was saying he's not on that committee, but you know, he's in Congress, so he gets to go watch, you know, any hearing that he wants to. And so he goes to watch the hearing. And he said, it was really interesting because the house oversight committee, as you know, the house is controlled by Republicans right now. And he said, the house oversight committee is one of the most partisan committees in, in the house of representatives right now. They. It's all pretty much a lot of grandstanding and fundraising disguised as a committee, which look, both parties are guilty of that. It just happens to be the Republicans right now. But he said the interesting thing in the, in the hearings on aliens and UFOs was the two political parties have not decided what their partisan position on this issue is. So everybody on the committee got to actually work together and ask relevant questions because

Dan:
Wow,

Charles:
the issue had not

Dan:
that's

Charles:
yet been. Yeah.

Dan:
crazy.

Charles:
People haven't decided. Okay. The Republican position is aliens are real in the Democratic positions. Aliens don't exist. So now we got to find it out. That hasn't happened yet on this, on this very new issue. So people could actually focus on asking questions and getting their job done instead of just fighting with each other and making sound bites that they'd be able to fundraise off of.

Dan:
Wow, that's nuts.

Charles:
Isn't that, but I mean, when he said it, I was like, oh yeah, that, that is exactly how it works. We, you know, it's,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
it's not the war in Ukraine. It's not COVID. It's not abortion or client. We haven't decided this party's for this party's against. So we can actually just have a conversation at this point.

Dan:
That's nice. It's the way it should be. Yeah.

Charles:
Oh, I'm sure, but it's, but you know, it's a countdown, you know, eventually Biden or Trump is going to say something controversial about UFOs and aliens. And then the line's going to be drawn in the sand and then everybody's going to run to their respective sides and decide this is how we feel about this. And, and getting back to it, that's what I was saying about, about COVID where, you know, regardless of the science and, you know, education that we've had, we're in such a polarized political environment. It's like. Okay, no, my tribe, my people, we already decided this is the way we feel about this issue. And I want to be accepted by my tribe. I want to be accepted by my people. So now without actually learning anything new, I just have to say the same things they're saying so that they'll know that I'm a good soldier.

Dan:
Yeah, no, really. And that's why it's so difficult for us. And that's why we're in this, you know, position that we're in, because we are fighting our own biology. That is, you know, for thousands of years, that's how we had to operate, right? We have to get along with our tribe members. And we have to, you know, we would trust a leader to do the right thing. And the problem is that we can't operate that any way. We can't operate in that fashion anymore, because I think part of the reason why we can't do that. is because there's no accountability. When somebody does something wrong, when somebody lies, whatever, thousands of years ago, or when we were in tribes, they'd be ostracized from the tribe. They maybe even killed

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
or kicked out. And their life was on the line. These days, people don't even need to apologize when they get stuff wrong or lie about it, whatever. There's no accountability.

Charles:
On video, you can get caught on video saying something that is clearly not true and then reverse yourself and you can watch the two videos back to back and the person still never acknowledges that happened. It's insane.

Dan:
Yeah. And because of that, you know, I think we're approaching complete chaos and anarchy and we were kind of all of our, you know, we're on our own, right? And I feel like now it's up to each of us individually to, you know, rely on, you know, the information that we were, you know, that we, that we learned from our parents and teachers, from, you know, our mentors in our life, and then also, you know, put the time and energy and the reps into doing our own research and, and at least a little bit of something. and coming up with our own

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
ideas and not just blankly. Not that you can't listen to what they have to say, but you know, just take it with a grain of salt, use it as one of your information sources, not your only information source.

Charles:
Yeah, I would say, I mean, again, with, with the doing your own research thing, it's, it's tough, Dan, because even, I mean, if you're just researching something journalistically, much less something scientific, like almost none of us have the training to do that in a way that we can, we should feel confident in our results and, and it's almost, you know, like the Dunning-Kruger effect, the less we know about how to do our own research, the more we feel like we can probably do just fine, you know, and that's,

Dan:
Yeah, we don't know what

Charles:
and

Dan:
we don't know.

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Yeah, I would say, you know, my, one of my favorite things to do, um, is, is look to people in the public intellectual space, look for new people constantly and say to myself, okay, who's somebody that I agree with probably less than 50% of the time, but I can acknowledge they're smarter and more informed than I am.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Like what's, what's the name of a, of a person that I would say. Okay. We, we disagree on a lot of important things, but I can tell that from an education standpoint, from a raw intelligence standpoint, from a, how much they follow, you know, what's going on in the world, they're, they're more informed and more intelligent than I am. And so I don't just sign off on, on their positions willy nilly, because like I said, I disagree with them the majority of the time, but when something new comes up, I at least want to hear what their position is and why they've adopted that position. because there may be something in there that I don't know that I need to know.

Dan:
You're gonna great way to find that are listening to podcasts, right? And because then you're gonna get, you'll get a sense of who they are, how they think, you know, what influences them, what drives them. Yeah. And just a little, a little sales pitch for listening to more podcasts for everybody.

Charles:
Yeah, absolutely. I, uh, I find, I find that valuable. And, uh, you know, again, it's just the, the human need to be accepted, you know, how many things are we going along with and agreeing with on a daily basis because we just feel like, okay,

Dan:
we're

Charles:
you

Dan:
overwhelmed.

Charles:
know, if I,

Dan:
We're overwhelmed. I think a lot

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
of it comes

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
from just, we are so over busy and we just, you know, there's so many temptations too. It's not always bad busy. It's, you know, you've got vacations and you've got to plan that stuff and you've got a new RV and you got to buy stuff for it and you're up in three in the morning buying stuff for it or whatever. And

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
now you're not having, you know, you're a little bit worn out the next day. And so our capacity then to, to learn something new or, or to dig into something. that maybe isn't quite as exciting. Yeah, that's diminished, so.

Charles:
Yeah, one of the, uh, and one of the things that, uh, this will be the last I'll say about political social stuff is one of the things that's been bothering me recently and even back in the nineties, you remember when, uh, Tipper Gore, Al Gore's wife was the one who pushed for the, uh, parental advisory stickers to be put on, uh,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
rap albums like

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
that little black, that's all because of her. And, and, you know, whether it's rap albums or Dungeons and Dragons or video games, there's always somebody who's. You know, trying to lock down what people are allowed to do. And they say that they're doing it for the children. It's for the children, blah, blah.

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
And, you know, we've, we've now kind of moved where that's the domain of the right in this country, you know, to, to get certain books out of libraries and, and schools and stuff like that because of the content it's for the children, it's for the children and, you know, my, my little bit of parenting advice, which, uh, again, I, I have ultimate authority to offer parenting advice because. Uh, I have gone my whole life without having children before I was ready to have children, so that, that gives me ultimate authority and credibility to

Dan:
And

Charles:
other people ought to raise their kids. Uh,

Dan:
of course.

Charles:
I'm joking about that, but kind of not really. Um, here's the thing. What I've, what I noticed, you know, when it comes to what books kids have access to, if as a parent, your parenting philosophy is I am going to teach my kids what to think and therefore they will have, you know, the happy, healthy kind of life I think they should have because they'll have my thoughts in their head.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Um, and I think that's probably the default, how most parents raise their kids.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Um, if you do that, if your primary goal is I need to teach my kids what to think, then you are in a very dangerous position of the minute somebody else comes along, a friend, a teacher, a college professor who is better. teaching people how better teaching people what to think than you were, then your kids are going to toss your ideas out and they're going to adopt these new ideas instead. Where if instead of that, you teach your kids how to think instead of what to

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
think

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
and you make them strong thinkers, then you don't have to worry about anybody coming along, trying to teach them what to think because they already know how to think.

Dan:
Right. And

Charles:
And

Dan:
that's

Charles:
I feel

Dan:
right.

Charles:
like the people who are most threatened by books, TV shows, movies, sending their kids a dangerous message. It's because they haven't taught their kids, they know they haven't taught their kids how to think. They've only taught their kids what to think. And

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
so

Dan:
and

Charles:
as

Dan:
then

Charles:
a

Dan:
you're...

Charles:
result, they have to worry about somebody better coming along, teach who can do it better than they did.

Dan:
Right. And I mean, not even that, but then if they're teaching something opposite to what, you know, you've implanted in their kids in terms of what they're thinking, and now they've presented a more convincing argument on the contrary of what they're thinking, it's very upsetting because it's, you know, you

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
basically

Charles:
sure.

Dan:
have then tied a lot of that happens, we end up tying that to our identity. This is who I am.

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
exactly. Yes.

Dan:
These are the things. that define who I am and now I don't know who I am because that thing that I thought I was or that was true for me is no longer, in my opinion, true for me. And it's like, well, what the hell am I? You know, and then maybe

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
you go to the other extreme of whatever that, you know, whatever those behaviors are, you know, with your identity, you're maybe behaving

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
one way and then you go to the other extreme because you think, oh, well, you know, this is all wrong now. maybe that's not the case. You're throwing baby out the bathwater. So that's, I totally agree with you that, you know, again, and I'm going to come back to part of what I believe in when you turn, ask someone to teach someone to how to think is you ask questions and you, you figure out how to ask questions, the questions to ask and just being open to being, to, you know, to being wrong. And not, not having it all figured out. So, uh, yeah, totally, totally agree with you on that.

Charles:
Yeah, I really, yeah, I really feel like it, and no matter what the issue is, and I'll, I'll take one that is a little polarizing and a little out there, say, say I'm a, I'm a dad and from a religious standpoint, say I'm a, I'm a Scientologist, I belong to the church of Scientology, you know, the same one that celebrities are in, I believe all that stuff at some point, I should probably have a conversation with my son or daughter that says, Hey, in this family, we're Scientologists. I'm a Scientologist because. You know, my mom and dad were Scientologists. That's, that's how I became a Scientologist when I was your age. But now here's the evidence and the facts that I have learned to believe in since I became an adult, here's why I'm still a Scientologist because I believe this, and this, and it convinced me that this is still true. You know, I, first I believed it by default. Now I believe it because it makes sense to me and I think it's true.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And so I have no idea if cytologists have those kind of conversations with their kids, cause I don't, I don't

Dan:
I

Charles:
know

Dan:
don't think

Charles:
all

Dan:
anybody,

Charles:
the details of what they're into.

Dan:
I mean, I don't know if anybody has that level of conversations about anything that they've grown up in, right? I feel like, you know, I mean, I think they should, but I don't, yeah, it's, a lot

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
of it is,

Charles:
I would

Dan:
because

Charles:
say

Dan:
the default,

Charles:
if...

Dan:
it's easier just to say, hey, well, this is just the way it is. And this is just what I, you know, this is just how I grew up and this is what I believe. This is just, these are facts, right? And rather than, oh, here, right, you know, this is why.

Charles:
Yeah, but I, I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
look, I completely agree with you that not many people are having those conversations, but I would say if there is something about your family. That you value, whether it's your politics, your religion, your family's relationship with money. I mean, whatever it is, if you value it enough that you want it to go past your generation to your kids' generation, to your grandkids' generation, that having those kinds of conversations about whatever that topic is has to be a part of your life because. If you're not talking about it, then you're, you're just hoping that this, this boulder with very jagged, uneven edges, you're just hoping on faith that it will continue to roll down the hill, but you don't know for sure that it's going to.

Dan:
Yeah. That's fair.

Charles:
Alright, so I think we're done with today's episode where we did not get into our material at all. It was more of a catch-up and a commentary. But we'll see what the

Dan:
That's

Charles:
stats

Dan:
fine.

Charles:
are on this episode, if people love it or hate

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
it.

Dan:
yeah, yeah. Give us some feedback people. Yeah, we'll get into it on the next one though. So.

Charles:
Yeah, we're going to the next episode is going to be back to the atomic attraction book that we've been talking about forever. And you know, to its credit, it does have a lot of diverse topics to discuss. It's very wide ranging wide,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
but shallow, I would say not shallow in a bad way, but just, you know, we don't dive into any one thing too deep. The next chapter that we're going to cover is maintain mystery. So we'll be back next week with the info on that. Well, next week for you guys, Dan and I are probably going to just record it right now. So there we are.

Dan:
All right, we'll talk to you soon.

Charles:
Talk to you next time, Dan. All

Dan:
All right,

Charles:
right.

Dan:
bye

Charles:
Bye.

Dan:
bye.