Learning to Talk—Again

In this episode we cover some of the dos and don'ts of speaking to women that you're interested in--including some ways to build attraction, and other ways to avoid killing attraction.

As always, let us know what you think of our ideas!

Transcript

Dan:
Morning, Charles.

Charles:
Hello again, Dan. How are you?

Dan:
I'm well, I'm still well.

Charles:
I don't know that I'm spectacular anymore. I feel like a little bit of that morning enthusiasm is wearing off, but I'm at least well, maybe better.

Dan:
Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, this is a, we're still figuring things out, right. In terms of

Charles:
Yeah, exactly.

Dan:
You know, bulk recording our episodes here. So, you know, maybe we need to get a little bit more caffeine or something, a little more monster or something going and yeah,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
get,

Charles:
then

Dan:
get that

Charles:
the

Dan:
enthusiasm back.

Charles:
next round of bulk recording will probably be at the studio. I hope at least we'll see how it goes,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
how our timetable

Dan:
we

Charles:
goes

Dan:
are

Charles:
for getting

Dan:
overdue

Charles:
ready.

Dan:
for that. We just got to pull the trigger and get that started here. So I am excited for that.

Charles:
Yeah, the big, the big decision is I know you want to, you want to hit the ground running. I kind of feel like I want to reorient the table and spin it 90 degrees before we start. But.

Dan:
Well, we'll talk about that. We're not gonna talk about that now, but we will talk about that.

Charles:
Alright,

Dan:
I don't

Charles:
fair

Dan:
want

Charles:
enough.

Dan:
any more things getting in the way of us just starting. And, you know, anyway, but yeah, we'll talk about

Charles:
Alright,

Dan:
it. I'm open to changing it if we, yeah, if we don't like

Charles:
if

Dan:
it.

Charles:
you agree to never use your closet again and we can just leave the table where it sits, then I will be on board with leaving it where it is. Hahahaha!

Dan:
Okay. All right. Well, well, yeah, my, what my vote is we record the way it is and see how it goes. And then, you know, and work out some kinks. So we got some momentum and then we can change the table after that. Um, I'm totally cool.

Charles:
I just hate that we can't tape any of the wires yet until we have the

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
table in a place where we can leave it. We can't tape any of the wires and that's driving me crazy.

Dan:
Okay, all right. Well,

Charles:
But

Dan:
I guess

Charles:
all

Dan:
we're

Charles:
right,

Dan:
going to

Charles:
we'll

Dan:
see if

Charles:
fight

Dan:
they're

Charles:
about

Dan:
in the

Charles:
it

Dan:
shot

Charles:
later.

Dan:
and stuff. Yeah. All right.

Charles:
Tonight when you're trying to listen to your favorite EDM music,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I'll be like screaming in your ear, Dan, I had an idea about the studio. Pay attention to me, don't pay attention to this thing that we paid for.

Dan:
Yeah, I'm sure I will not ignore you. Okay, so let's get into atomic attraction this chapter here because I put some cycles in this morning to dig into some of this stuff.

Charles:
Alright, fair enough. So did

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I. Okay, so... The first section that I didn't tell you to prepare for, but we've both read this book at least once all the way through, so

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I know you'll be able to jump in with me on this. The first chapter we're going to cover says, Maintain Mystery, which encourages men to understand sort of the balance between... I mean, look, it... To be an honest and candid person who is comfortable sharing details about themselves, that is a prized skill among humans in general and I would say men who are interested in women specifically. The idea that you're willing to be like, hey, here's who I am. Here's what I think. Here's what I feel. And the world may take it or leave it, but this is who I am. I mean, I think that is definitely a characteristic that is prized,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
prized because of its rarity, I would say.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Um, the opposite side of that though, is being too available and too responsive and being, you know, using frequent and, uh, frequent communication and excessive disclosure as a crutch. to try to get things from people, try to get people to do what you want them to do and treat you the way you wanna be treated by

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
constantly being in their face and constantly sharing things about yourself in an effort to build intimacy prematurely or inappropriately.

Dan:
Yeah, that's interesting. It's definitely a nice guy tactic. It's kind of a, Hey, I'm sharing all this information with you. And because I'm doing that, you should do all these things that I want you to do, right? Feel, you know, you feel attraction towards me and, uh, you know, get intimate with me and, you know, build this relationship with me. And, and yeah, that doesn't work that way.

Charles:
Yeah. And when it comes to, you know, actionable advice or, um, I hesitate to say rules or policies, because that just seems too, you know, too hard. But for actionable advice, what I would say is when it comes to sharing things about yourself that are, you know, personal about your, your personal history, whether that's your childhood, your previous romantic relationships, difficulty you've had with your education or with your career. Um, number one, I would say almost never do that. Not in person. If you've made the choice to share that information with somebody, it should be in person. It should not be over a text message or even over a phone call. Um, but beyond that, I would say even reconsider whether you need to share. Those things at all. Um,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, because. When. When people say that they, they want you to be honest and open with them, they're not saying I need you to completely disclose every emotional state and thought that you experienced to me. So that I can know exactly what's going on in your head at all times. And, and I would say, even if somebody such as a girlfriend or a wife did say that she wanted that.

Dan:
That's unhealthy.

Charles:
Yeah, it's unhealthy and I don't even know that it's true. I mean, I, I mean, I think she, a woman who would say something like that means, means something when she says it, but I don't think she means what those, what those actual objective words

Dan:
I mean,

Charles:
would

Dan:
to

Charles:
like

Dan:
me,

Charles:
that.

Dan:
if I heard that, what I translate that is, she's upset about something, doesn't trust me

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
about something, and wants information that she doesn't have. And now she's like, tell me everything, you know, and it's just upset. Like there's a problem. It's not how you build a foundation of a healthy relationship.

Charles:
Right. And, and if you have that level of disclosure with someone, whether it's one way or, you know, unidirectional or bidirectional, um, it then becomes hard to tell where one person stops and the other one starts and, and that's where, you know, issues like enmeshment and, um, codependency and things like that start to rear their ugly heads where it's like, you know, we're not two people in a relationship anymore. The couple is the entity and we're not individuals. It's just, we, we live as, as this two headed beast. And you know, that's, that's where, that's where the quality of the relationship and the health of the relationship will certainly degrade.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And I've, I've been, I've been in that, uh, position in previous relationships where, you know, not only was my partner, my best friend, they were essentially my only friend. And so it definitely other aspects of the relationship, like the male, female polarization and attraction suffered as a result of that.

Dan:
Yeah, it's sad that we, not we, but people, certain sections of society, mainly the tabloids and the news media, promote that where they start combining people's first names together. And now it's not Brad Jennifer, it's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Bennifer, whatever. And it's like, yeah, now it's the couple. It's not them individually anymore. And I think a lot of... know, a lot of traditions too with, you know, when it comes to, you know, marriage and other things, you know, some of these expressions where like you complete me and now it's like one, you know, two,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
you

Charles:
the

Dan:
know,

Charles:
two

Dan:
they,

Charles:
become

Dan:
they have

Charles:
one.

Dan:
the two candles,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
right? They, you know, they, they light the, the two candles and they, they light the one together and now it's just the one. And it's just, that's, I mean, not sustainable. Why do, why is there this push

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
to do that? That's why so

Charles:
Well, because...

Dan:
many, so many people are breaking up and getting divorced.

Charles:
Yeah, because it feels romantic. It, it strokes that, uh, it scratches that romance itch that we all, that we all have, which, you know, as anything is, is

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
a, is striving for connection and security and, and engaging in language like that and, you know, rituals like that, it makes it feel like, okay, so I've been through this, this ritual with this person, um, so now

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I feel like they can't leave me or they won't leave me.

Dan:
Yeah. And

Charles:
Where

Dan:
now,

Charles:
as a

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
matter of fact, they can and they might, and then you'll have to survive that.

Dan:
And I mean, yeah, it makes it makes for, like you said, like a romantic story. And, you know, as humans, that is what we have. You know, driven our, you know, evolution has been based on stories in terms of, you know, all the things that we, you know, we do. And that's how we communicate. And the best, you know, the people who can tell the best stories typically are some of the more successful people in society.

Charles:
Right. Yeah. I, uh, one of the points that he raises in this chapter that I think it does, you know, almost everything we talk about in some way ties back to no more Mr. Nice guy, right? Where if, if you're confident that you are an interesting person and the kind of person that people want to know more about, then you won't feel compelled to rush into all this disclosure where it's like. You know, Ferrari and Lamborghini, they're not airing ads during the Super ball because

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
they don't need to. The people who get to a point in their life where they can afford those cars and can appreciate those cars, they will find the Ferrari and Lamborghini dealership when it's time to get one. They don't have to be sold on it. And if you can, not delude yourself, not falsely consider yourself a Ferrari or Lamborghini, but honestly, it doesn't take that much as a man to set yourself apart from other men. I mean, you need to spend some time in the gym. You need to spend some time doing some inner work, whether that's therapy or a 12 step group or, you know, sessions with your priest or counselor where you. You work out the things that are holding you back and you do some evaluation and say, okay, these are the things, these are the areas that I should be better in. These are the areas that I deserve to. To work hard for myself. And, uh, if you take on those kinds of tasks, you will be in the vast minority of men that do that. And then you can start thinking of yourself as the Ferrari or Lamborghini and, and live that life and, and draw people to you and not have to say. Okay, well, man, if I tell her about how rough my childhood was on the second day, then she'll feel sorry for me and want to be closer to me. It's

Dan:
Hehehe

Charles:
like she might, I mean, as a short-term strategy, that might seem like it's getting done for you, what you want to get done, but not as a, not as a long-term, you know, sympathy is not a long-term foundation for a, a romantic sexual relationship. It just

Dan:
Oh no,

Charles:
isn't.

Dan:
that's not the primary driver of a male-female relationship. It's not based on sympathy.

Charles:
Yeah, women don't make children with the men that they feel the sorryest for.

Dan:
Right, right. They

Charles:
So.

Dan:
have no, right? There's no advantage to them to do that. Just

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
a burden.

Charles:
Yeah, that's

Dan:
That's just,

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
that

Dan:
Nope. Right,

Charles:
is not that is that's not going to secure the genes a another round around the globe. So

Dan:
right.

Charles:
that's not what anybody's going to be looking for. Yeah. One of the phrases he uses is less is more, which I find the idea of less is more applies in so many areas of our lives where not less effort, not less. Not less thinking, but less. trying to control results is always more. So less initial effort in a relationship that's brand new is certainly a good idea. Less initial investment, whether that's your time or your money or your attention, that is a good idea. Less expending energy at the beginning of a relationship. Again, because it has to be sustainable. It's like crash diets don't work for the longterm. They...

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
You know, they, they work for the short term. If, if you want to have a very passionate, tumultuous, four week relationship with a girl, then by all means over invest in every way that you possibly can,

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
and maybe you'll both get what you're looking for out of it. But rarely would somebody say, okay, what I want is a, a very wild and crazy four week relationship with somebody after which we either hate each other or never talk again.

Dan:
Yeah, that's,

Charles:
I'm not looking

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
for that.

Dan:
No, I mean, look, you're, you're setting yourself up with some crazy habits in terms of the way you relate to each other. If you're going to do that, the same thing with the weight loss too, you're going to be, you know, implementing some extreme measures that are not going to be sustainable and, um, and, and there's, there's going to be negative consequences that are either brushed under the swept under the rug or kind of brushed aside or are able to be ignored temporarily, but they're not going to go away and they're going to come back to bite you. And that's the problem. Um, whereas if you're doing it in a little bit more of a, you know, uh, a slower methodical approach and, and there's, there's less riff raff and all these other con negative consequences that need to kind of be dealt with. Yeah. you're learning how to do it in the right way. And also, you're not investing all of your time and energy. So like you said, but because it's less, it is more valuable, right? Less

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
of anything

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
is typically more valuable.

Charles:
Yes. And, and it even comes down to just from a practical standpoint, it's like, we all have only so many deeply personal details that we can share with people. And if you front load your relationship with all these deeply personal details, you're going to run out of things to say, and you know, you're going to get somebody used to this radical, excessive level of personal disclosure. And then once you've told all the stories and all the experiences and all the struggles, then you're just going to be repeating stuff they've already heard, which I mean, you and I have both talked about that when, when you have a partner that is constantly struggling with the same difficulties and not doing anything to address them, all they like the goal for them is just to talk about it, not to fix it, but just to have the, I guess, catharsis or experience of I've got these bad feelings and I need to, and, and They don't feel good in here. So if I put them on you, then you know, which look, a part of that is going to be. Some of that is going to be necessary in any healthy relationship where you do share your burdens with somebody that you live with that you're committed to, that you make kids with whatever. But yeah, if it's just, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that my career has stalled or I'm carrying these extra pounds or I wake up tired with no energy. I don't like, I'm uncomfortable with the results that I'm getting and I'm not uncomfortable enough to, you know, research methods and, and practices to change them I'm uncomfortable to quiet enough to quietly live with it. So if I just tell you about it, that'll relieve some of, that'll soothe some of my discomfort, but I'm not going to change anything. I'm just going to put my bad feelings on you and you know, don't tell me how or why I should change anything just. Just listen to me complain because I'll feel 5% better if I complain and then I won't get to the point where I need to do anything about it. And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I I'm sure I've done that and I've, and I've been on the receiving side of it too. And it's not fun for either party. So

Dan:
Yeah. I got.

Charles:
that said, I think you should have people in your life that you can have those complaints with. But is it the romantic partner that you want to go to sleep with and possibly have sex with tonight? You know, probably it probably is not that person.

Dan:
Right. Yeah, it's correct. And that's again, the danger of going, hey, we are one unit now. Now then that pushes people to think, okay, this person is my end all be all for everything. And they should be my best friend, my lover, my counselor, my parent, my child, all those other roles in one. And that is not possible. And that is, you're asking a tall order from your partner and it's not fair and it's a burden on the other person as well. So yeah, that's why it's really important to maintain those friendships and those independent experiences, in my opinion, so that you continue to leverage all of the things that you've built in your life to become the great person that you are, and you're not letting them go just because you decide you're gonna be in a committed relationship with someone.

Charles:
Yeah. I mean, think, think about those roles you just mentioned where, you know, you're looking for this woman in your life to be your girlfriend, your girlfriend, your mother, your best friend, your therapist.

Dan:
Maybe

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
a business

Charles:
Those are four

Dan:
partner. I've done that too.

Charles:
potentially. Yes. So we'll

Dan:
You

Charles:
stop

Dan:
know?

Charles:
at the four. We'll, we'll, we'll stop at girlfriend, mother, therapist, and best friend. In that list of four, there is only one, 25% of those that I want to see naked and that want to see me naked. Ideally.

Dan:
That's a good point, right? All those other things, right? Yeah. You don't want them in that role when you're seeing them

Charles:
No.

Dan:
naked because now things are awkward.

Charles:
Correct. So you treat one woman, you put her in those four roles

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and it's not ridiculous to say, I wonder if that will result in her only being 25% of this attracted to me

Dan:
Hmm,

Charles:
as if she only had the one role.

Dan:
interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess, well, okay, so it depends on how much time you're spending in each role, right?

Charles:
Correct.

Dan:
I

Charles:
That's

Dan:
think

Charles:
fair.

Dan:
a lot, you know, so a little

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
bit here and there

Charles:
I'm definitely

Dan:
of that,

Charles:
oversimplifying

Dan:
right?

Charles:
it to make an example.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But yes.

Dan:
But no, that's a that's a great way of coming at coming at it. Right?

Charles:
So

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
every, every minute you're treating your girlfriend, like your mother or your therapist is a minute that she is not being turned on by you.

Dan:
Yeah. And, and you know, the here's, here's the rub with that. No pun intended. Um, we are taught, I mean, a lot of us are taught what it's like to have a relationship with a mother or with a best friend, but we don't like, where do you learn other than, you know, I mean, these days you might, you can, we can look at some books and watch, I mean, but maybe it's media or whatever what it looks like to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend, you know, on either side. we're getting that from TV and, and movies and stuff. And that's a lot of that isn't realistic because again, it's pushing that whole one unit thing. A lot of it is a little bit not so much now, but yeah. So, you know, we've got a lot more experience treating. I mean, I know at least I do, you know, I grew up with my mom and my sister. So I mean my whole life. So that is how I, you know, my default is when it comes to relating to women and it, you know, it takes a lot of up, you know, swimming upstream and reeducation and, you know, stumbling and falling and messing things up in order to figure out, Hey, well, what does relationship with a girlfriend look like? What, what is that exactly? Like how do you communicate what, you know, what, what kinds of things are you doing to, you know, to foster, you know, that, you know, that, that chemistry, the sexual chemistry as well as keeping that interest and

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
you know, not, not doing things that you would normally do or communicate with, you know, with your mom and a sister.

Charles:
Yeah. I mean, I would say, you know, most of the cues you get from that are going to be based on what your parents have modeled. I mean, that's, that's

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
where you're going to see it the most at the youngest age where it has the most effect on you. And you know, how many of us come from. Families where mom and dad are married and in love with each other and, you know, investing time and effort in the relationship and I,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I would say it's a rarity among my friends that, uh, they had that experience growing up where they saw, you know,

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
the,

Dan:
for sure.

Charles:
the marriage of their, of their two birth parents being modeled for them in a positive way. And so, yeah, it's, if, if you're not seeing it there, then yeah, you are going to get it from media and your friend's parents and their, your friend's parents probably aren't any doing any better job than your parents were. So

Dan:
And,

Charles:
it's,

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
uh, yeah.

Dan:
and they're only letting you see for the most, most of it, what they want you to see. Right? So a lot of it is going to be filtered out. It's not like you're a fly on the wall or sitting on the shoulder, watching all of the interactions that they're having. Right? A lot of it is just when you happen to be at your friend's house,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
you know, and you're seeing the way their parents are interacting now or, and then, even then they know you're there. So they might be acting in a different way than they normally would. So yeah, that's almost useless. that information.

Charles:
Well, I mean, yeah,

Dan:
That's

Charles:
I would say,

Dan:
my

Charles:
I

Dan:
opinion.

Charles:
mean, that's certainly it's certainly more real than the media is. But

Dan:
Sure,

Charles:
but it's not.

Dan:
sure,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
but it

Charles:
I

Dan:
may

Charles:
mean,

Dan:
not

Charles:
living.

Dan:
be healthy, but

Charles:
It's not

Dan:
you

Charles:
the

Dan:
may

Charles:
same

Dan:
not

Charles:
as.

Dan:
be teaching anything useful to you either

Charles:
Right. Almost, almost certainly not because again, nobody's, I

Dan:
You know? It's not a class.

Charles:
mean, yeah, I, it's hard for me to think of a family that I know personally, husband and wife are together and happy and not, you know, constantly bitching and moaning about each other or their life

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
or their careers or whatever. Um, yeah. And they've got kids that seem to be. Um, well adjusted and trauma free. It's like, it feels like, I don't know, maybe, maybe I just hang out with scumbags, but I don't know anybody who's in that dream scenario that I think all children are entitled to. And it just doesn't seem to happen at least in Western culture. I mean, everybody's got major things to struggle with and few of them, I mean, and I'm not talking about life where nothing bad happens to you as a kid. but a life where, you know, your parents are, are dedicated to their relationships with themselves and each other and their kids. I just, I don't see a lot of that happening.

Dan:
Right. It's right. And because a lot of that isn't happening, I think that's why, you know, so many of us struggle with that. And, you know, it's, what's interesting is, um, you know, kind of, uh, the next chapter here exploit her weakness for words. He basically, he said a statement that sent me off, uh, doing some research this morning, not,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
not being upset, but, but

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
just, I was like, cause he said that, um, you know, women, men are a lot more visual and women are a lot more auditory. I'm like, is that true? Are women actually more auditory? And I did some Googling and actually

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
a hearing aid website came up, Belltone. And a couple of other ones came up, they all are really kind of saying the same thing, which is, yeah, women actually, they hear differently. and take that information differently than men do and based on our brain. So we've got more gray matter, but they've got a lot more white matter. And basically

Charles:
Hmm.

Dan:
what that means is that women are using a different part of their brain when processing information that they're hearing. They also can hear higher pitched tones and sounds. And that's kind of shown. as people get older as well, is that women typically have less hearing loss than men. So women who complain about men don't ever listen or whatever, there's some science behind that. But what was really interesting to me was that the part of the brain in men that we use for our hearing is dominated by the left part of our brain, which is

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
really based on listening and speech, whereas women, it's a little bit of both sides. And so what that means is they have the listening speech, but they also have the nonverbal cues. So the part of her brain that's processing the information

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
is a nonverbal. So it's body language. And that's why women are so good at just like naturally seem to know, like understand body language. And I'm always amazed when, and I'm talking to women and they're like, oh yeah. I'm listening to multiple conversations at the same time in a restaurant, you know, hearing this and hearing that or whatever. And I'm like, wow, I can barely pay attention to what you're saying, you know? And so, um, it's, it's really impressive when they do that. So, um, I, I thought that was very interesting and kind of really supports, um, you know, what some of the things that he's talking about, how important storytelling is, how, how that's, uh, it can be a very attractive trait in a man when you're communicating and getting to know a woman.

Charles:
Yeah, I do feel like he may have, um, undersold the power of words. As they affect men though, where I mean, I'm

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
okay with his original suggestion that, you know, basically he says the way that a man can kind of get thrown off his game and shaken up a little bit by being in the presence of a beautiful woman,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
a woman could have that same effect if she's in the presence of a man who's really good with his words and is able, you know, I'll accept that, you know, that's true. I I'd like to, you know, dive deeper before I make any kind of endorsements or decisions based on it. But this, this guy generally doesn't make up nonsense. He cites studies and he, he says things that are pretty on target. But what I will say is. When a man is in the presence of a beautiful woman who also knows the things to say to that man, then it's completely game over for him. I mean, if you're in the presence of a very attractive woman who knows how to use her words on you

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
and make you feel the way she wants you to feel, then that's where the real superpower is. And I would say the opposite is probably true as well, where you've got a guy who knows the words to say to evoke an emotional response in a woman and he's attractive and he has style and he's put together, then you know, that's really the, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I think in both cases, the person who masters both of those things, you know, who absolutely gets every rings every piece of benefit out of their physical appearance that they can and also gets every piece of benefit out of their ability to communicate. That's the position you want to be in as a man or a woman. You want to be the person that has both not, not where it's just a binary of men like this and women like this, you know what I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
mean?

Dan:
So I'm going to say why stop there, right? We've got five senses. Some people say six. So why

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
not? Make sure you smell good, right?

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Um, you know, why not? You know, so all the, you know, um,

Charles:
Make sure

Dan:
in,

Charles:
you taste

Dan:
in

Charles:
good.

Dan:
it tastes right. Well,

Charles:
Make

Dan:
I

Charles:
sure

Dan:
mean,

Charles:
you're putting off, you're putting off good vibes.

Dan:
Right, but right, I mean, but here's the thing, right? Those are all, those all factor into everything and what, if you know that you're wearing, so one can kind of help the other, right? So if you know you've got, you know, the cologne that, you know,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you've gotten some compliments on and you're wearing that, it's gonna build your confidence, right? And now that's gonna help your speech. That's gonna help what you're talking about, right? You might even stand up a little straighter. So now it's helping your physical appearance and how you look. And all those things, nothing exists in isolation, we always talk about that, right? And all those things are, you know, can help each other out. So yeah, let's, okay, so all right, you're a little overweight, you haven't made it to the gym in a while, all right? Maybe you're not great at telling stories. Well, what can you do? All right, so work on the things that you can do, right? So, you know, some of the things that you've advised on in terms of, you know, way to cut your hair, things to wear, your dress, you know, how you smell. making sure you shower and scrub two or three times with soap. So you know, if, you know, if you are tasted, you are going to taste good. You know,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I was listening, I was listening last night. I'm going to drive home from the campground to a, a few, a couple of female comedians talking on XM. And they were talking about one woman was like, I used to be a flight attendant and she, you know, she was on this really long flight with, uh, and ended up hooking up with the pilot and she was completely. grossed out before she started to make out with him because she thought he'd been flying for eight hours and his penis is gonna taste disgusting. And she's like,

Charles:
Hmm.

Dan:
and I couldn't taste a thing. She's like, it was unbelievable. How did he pull this off? And she was like so excited about it. Like he didn't taste bad. Like she's like, he had no taste. Cause that was the first thing the woman interviewing her was asking me like, well, you know, how did it taste? No taste at all. And she's like, what? And they just, they went off about it. Like how there's no taste from a sweaty guy, you know, for like five hours. So taste is important. Ha ha ha.

Charles:
Okay. Fair enough. I didn't see the connection without particular without one sense to this discussion, but you, you definitely illustrated it for me. Um, yeah. And so that's, you know, that's another thing I feel like one of the most, one of the most common pieces of advice, uh, I seem to give on this podcast is, uh, for guys to have good friends and, uh, have,

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
have friends that you can talk to about things like this. Because I mean, you and I had this conversation not too long ago where I said, Hey, Dan, when we're going out and hanging out and, you know, is there anything that I'm doing that I might not know that I'm doing that is holding me back and is, you know, taking me down a notch socially and you're like, yeah, you can kind of zone out on your phone and act disinterested. And I said, that's because I am disinterested and that's why I take out my

Dan:
At least

Charles:
phone.

Dan:
you're being your authentic self. You got that? You got that part down. Uh,

Charles:
Right, but like we were talking about you know about

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
going tonight to this to this. I don't know concert is it called the concert Is it considered a concert? Okay,

Dan:
Yeah, I guess. Yeah, show. I would say

Charles:
whatever

Dan:
it's

Charles:
it is

Dan:
called

Charles:
okay

Dan:
a show.

Charles:
Yeah, like I will I will I'm sure have the impulse to just pull out my phone and start you know scrolling through Instagram or whatever I Will I will try to at least make that I'll figure out a way to make that one step more difficult than it would be normally so that I can try to stay a little bit more engaged, but yeah. So basically what I'm saying is guys have, have some friends or at least a friend that you can say, okay, when we go out, do I smell good? And when I

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
talk and tell a story, does, does it make sense? Is it fun to listen to or am I boring? Um, do,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
do I, do I look weird with the way that I dress when we go out or the way that I style my hair or don't style my hair or whatever, like have a friend that you can have those kinds of conversations with to say, okay, look, you know, is there something like, I mean, even, even couch and say, I appreciate that there might be something that you haven't mentioned to me because it would hurt my feelings, you know, I'm, I'm giving you the, uh, the go-ahead to say, okay, when you go out, you do this thing. And maybe it does or doesn't annoy me, but I could see how it might push other people away. So this is, this is the thing I would say you might want to, you want to think

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
about. And

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
so be the friend that's willing to say that when asked and also be the friend that's willing to ask it so that you can kind of figure out where the holes in your game are. And, you know, look, and the other thing is definitely hang out with people who are as put together or more than you are, because, you know, if you're the If you're the least bummy guy in your circle of friends, then you don't have anybody you can ask this of, and so you

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
probably need to up that too.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
All right. Um, one of the pieces of advice in this chapter is that communication with the women in your life for the most part should be light and relaxed.

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
And I would say, I mean, I would almost say the majority of conversations you have in life should be light and relaxed.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
You know, you should not be spending so much of your time having contentious heated arguments, whether it's about stuff in your personal life or, or at work or. You know, political, societal issues, just don't, don't spend time being ramped up and activated and having constant difficult conversations with people. I don't think you need to do that.

Dan:
Yeah, I look, I, I do believe, you know, the energy that you put out there is the energy you're going to attract. And so people who are looking to, if, if you, you know, if you want to have those serious and, you know, gut wrenching arguments and conversations and stuff like that, you're going to bring people over to you who are also interested in that. You're not going to

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
bring over people who are looking to have the lighthearted conversations. So don't, don't expect anything different.

Charles:
Yeah, I agree with that. And I would say, you know, yes, obviously we understand that if you're in a committed relationship with someone where you're trying to build a family, build a future, even build a company, you know, yes, you are going to have to have serious discussions about here's how we spend our money, here's, you know, where we're going to go on vacation, here's where we're going to live, here's where we're going to raise our kids. I mean, you're going to have very serious, tough conversations, but you need to make those. deliberate and, and the exception where your day-to-day interactions with somebody. It's, it's gotta be fun and it's gotta be light and not feel like a drag because if it feels like a drag, either you're with a person who gets off on conversations that feel like a drag or you're going to grind them down and they're going to, they're going to enjoy talking to you less and less as time goes up, goes by.

Dan:
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of some advice, big brotherly advice I gave my little sister years ago. Oh my God, it must have been, I think it was like in high school. And I was like, you know, she was constantly fighting with the boyfriend that she was dating and all the time. And I was just like, you know, I asked her, I was like, well, you know, percentage wise, like how often, how often you guys, you know, aren't fighting, you know? And she's like,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
I don't know, 40% of the time. I'm like, so... Why are you in this relationship? Are you in this relationship to be upset 60% of the time? If you, you know, I mean, why do people get in relationships? Because it's supposed to bring joy and happiness and, you know, fulfillment and excitement. And if you're, you know, unhappy more than half the time, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Charles:
Yeah, the, uh, you know, our, uh, our heroes in the relationship research space, the Gottman's developed a magic ratio for this where

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
in a, in a healthy and happy relationship, there's a five to one ratio of positive interactions to negative interactions.

Dan:
Oh wow, so that's again, the 80-20

Charles:
80

Dan:
rule.

Charles:
20. Yeah.

Dan:
Morado's

Charles:
No,

Dan:
principle applies

Charles:
no,

Dan:
to

Charles:
that's

Dan:
everything. Damn.

Charles:
is 80 20. That's

Dan:
Oh

Charles:
four.

Dan:
no,

Charles:
That's

Dan:
that's

Charles:
four to one.

Dan:
four to one, you're right. I apologize.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Yeah, no, that's higher.

Charles:
Yeah. Higher than, uh, yeah.

Dan:
So it's 8515

Charles:
Some yeah,

Dan:
kinda,

Charles:
closer to that.

Dan:
about that.

Charles:
Yeah. So for every, for every negative interaction you have with your partner, you need to have five positive interactions. And if you're not, if you're not reaching that ratio and, and a lot of us, I mean, I know when I read and when I hear that number, I can instantly say, no, I don't have that and, and I've, I would assume the people that do have that can instantly say, yeah, that sounds about right. You know, where

Dan:
You know, because

Charles:
I

Dan:
I

Charles:
don't

Dan:
think

Charles:
think

Dan:
you

Charles:
it

Dan:
got to

Charles:
requires

Dan:
put the work in.

Charles:
record keeping, but

Dan:
No,

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
but I feel like if you're not putting in the work, you're not, I don't think anything's just going to naturally gravitate towards 85-15. And I feel like, I mean, based on my experience in my life is, yeah, I've never really gotten close to that.

Charles:
Same. Yeah.

Dan:
And so, and in all fairness, I haven't put in the right amount of work. that I know now that needs to be done. And I have not been as intentional as I think I need to be in order to get there.

Charles:
Yeah, I would say I've even had some relationships where... The positive and negative interactions were probably pretty even, but both

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
rare, and there were just, it was just a sea of neutral reactions in the middle,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
which

Dan:
that's

Charles:
is...

Dan:
how I always end up in my relationships at the

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
end, you know, for way too long. It's just a sea of neutrality where there's

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
just...

Charles:
we're, we're not, yeah,

Dan:
Ugh.

Charles:
we're not fighting like cats and dogs, but we're also not complimenting each other and having, it's just, we're, we're

Dan:
floating

Charles:
roommates.

Dan:
along.

Charles:
We're, we're friends or associates.

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
And, uh, you know, there's, there's not high highs and there's not low lows. And that is, yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
that's not the, that's not the way that you build a happy and healthy relationship with somebody.

Dan:
That's not what I want.

Charles:
Yeah, I mean, either. Um, all right. One, uh, now given all this talk about, you know, conversations and, and how they should go and what the attitude should be. Again, the, the caution here is they should not, you should not over plan your conversations and your communication with someone you should not, you know, constantly be thinking of I'll say this, then I hope she'll say this, then I'll say this and then she'll feel this way.

Dan:
That's a

Charles:
And,

Dan:
lot of

Charles:
and

Dan:
work.

Charles:
I feel like the nice the nice guy in us will tend to try to plan things out that way where we say what we need to say to elicit the response that will lead to the state that we want to feel. And so, you know, it's a lot of planning and a lot of giving to get and a lot of trying to manipulate the situation. And so,

Dan:
And what

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
the breeds is dependency, right? That shows basically a neediness and saying, hey, look, I'm not going to be okay unless these things happen, right? Come to fruition, like that I'm getting these things. And part of this is, you know, learning to build your other parts of your life and who you are as a person to the point of where if those things happen, great. If they don't, great, right? It's you really... you know, you become outcome independent. So you, so you aren't, so, so you feel free to actually be yourself and, and not really do or say, or be something else in order to get something that you quote unquote, think you need.

Charles:
Right. And I'm glad you use the word neediness because, you know, that is something that I feel like almost every time that word comes up, there needs to be a clarification to say. our sort of natural interpretation of neediness in my opinion is usually wrong where the person who says, you know, Hey Dan, we're partners on this podcast and we're friends. And, um, for me to get what I need out of this relationship, I need you to do X, Y, and Z.

Dan:
I need

Charles:
That

Dan:
you to

Charles:
is

Dan:
turn

Charles:
not,

Dan:
the turn the table in the studio. I got it. OK.

Charles:
yeah, exactly. Yeah. That is not needy. What's needy is I need Dan to behave a certain way so that I feel like he loves

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
me

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
enough or cares about me enough. And I can't tell him that. So I need to, you know, manipulate circumstances in a way and, and sort of tweak his incentives behind the scenes so that he'll do the things for me that I need without me asking for them. And that's, that's what makes a man needy. When, when he,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
when he embarks on this behind the scenes game that he's trying to play with somebody to get what he wants out of them. That's needy going to someone and saying, Hey, currently you're doing this. It's not working for me. I need you to do this instead. That is not being needy.

Dan:
Yeah. No, that's, that's a great distinction for sure. Yeah.

Charles:
And it takes a lot more guts and courage to go to somebody and say, I need you to do this for me. You know, for me to feel happy, healthy, whatever in this relationship, I need this from you. That's a lot harder than, huh, let's see, let me, let me just play this one man game behind the scenes and see if I can get him or her to give me what they,

Dan:
You know,

Charles:
what I need.

Dan:
and I think maybe part of that could be by coming out with it and not hiding it behind something else. You are basically saying, hey, if this doesn't happen, there's gonna be some sort of consequences. And maybe it's not a breakup, but maybe it's something, but there will be some sort of, you know, you're kind of setting a boundary at that point when you're saying, I need you to do da da. And I think you have to respect somebody who's gonna do that.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
And at least, right, because now it's clear, all right, you know, if this is what, you know, my partner needs, I now know what they need. And it's up to me to decide, is that something that I'm willing to do? Right. And if not, then they're basically saying, hey, there's going to be some sort of consequences for that or more likely that there's going to be. Whereas if you are.

Charles:
So unprofessional. Ha ha

Dan:
But yeah,

Charles:
ha.

Dan:
I don't know why, I don't know why this, shouldn't have called. Anyway, so, whereas if somebody is doing the nice guy routine where it's a covert contract and you're trying to manipulate the situation to get what you need, you aren't really, you're being sneaky about it first of all, and second of all, you aren't really having the balls to say this is important enough to me that there's gonna be some sort of consequences if these needs aren't met. because you're not really saying it to anybody. You're not putting it out there, right? And that's a little bit of a weaker stance to take.

Charles:
Yeah, you know, I, as you were saying that I almost, I mean, and you always have to be careful about, um, implying an ultimatum or something like that where where it could come across like you're threatening, you're saying, you know, do this for me or else. I mean, I personally always do struggle with like, okay, I wanna say that this is a need and I wanna say, or this is a boundary that, you know, this is absolutely something that needs to be addressed, but not, hey, you gotta do this or else. I almost think of it the way, you know, if a parent finds something in their kid's room that the kid's not supposed to have, whether it's.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, cigarettes or drugs or pornography or something like this, you know, as a, as a good parent, you don't confront them and start screaming at them about it, you don't just subtly start treating them differently because there's like, Oh, this, you know, idealized version of my son or daughter has gone now, cause I

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
caught them with this thing. It's more of a situation where. You know, you invite them to the living room to sit down and have a conversation. And you just put that thing you found right in the middle of the coffee table. And it's like, okay, we're, we're not, we're, this is not a family relationship where we pretend like this thing doesn't exist. We're going to just put it out there and I'm going to say how I feel about it. You're going to say how you feel about it, but we're not going to do is pretend that it's not an issue.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And, and I feel like having that conversation with a partner to say. Hey, I've got this need and it's currently not being met and we need to talk about it. We need to acknowledge that I'm dealing with this and that you're involved. And now let's, let's have a dialogue about this thing that we previously haven't acknowledged between the two of us.

Dan:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's definitely a healthy way to go about having a conversation. And I hope I didn't come across as saying, you know, by you bringing up as a need that you're absolutely implying it's going to be

Charles:
Oh,

Dan:
a threat. Right.

Charles:
no,

Dan:
Like it's

Charles:
that's,

Dan:
a you do this or else. Right. No.

Charles:
that's

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
codependent Charles reading into the, oh, no, but what if that is, that is

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
not anything you said wrong.

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
That's,

Dan:
okay,

Charles:
that's me

Dan:
that's

Charles:
saying,

Dan:
interesting.

Charles:
okay, but if I just, if I just put it out there like that, I need

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
you to do this. And I've even, I mean, I've even had partners bring a need to me that way. They're like, Hey, I need this to change. And my immediate reaction is, Oh, are you saying or else go ahead and say the or else you're implying an or else. Why don't you say the or else? And that has been my reaction before.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
And yeah, it's, uh, so I'm just, I'm empathizing with the person who might be like me that sort of

Dan:
Mm

Charles:
hears

Dan:
hmm.

Charles:
an, here's an implied

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
or else that hasn't been said.

Dan:
Well, let me let me offer a little color to that perspective is that, you know. maybe they're just not, you know, using that word need could definitely be triggering. Right. And for a lot of people, right. So, so, you know, you know, maybe, you know, the other thing to think about here is just put yourself in their shoes and say, okay, well, first of all, you know, they're, they're struggling probably to bring this up to you in a way, you know, because they still care about you and they don't, you know, they don't want to hurt you. So they're struggling a little bit in terms of just bringing it up, but that you know, they probably don't have all of the ideas and suggestions and interpretations of what's going on that you do that you can offer at that point. So

Charles:
Certainly, yeah.

Dan:
even that first statement of what they quote unquote need may not actually be accurate in terms of, you know, the only thing that is going to quench their thirst or make them the way they want to feel,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
right? And that's where the other person has the opportunity to make some suggestions, right? And that's where the communication and the compromise comes in and go, okay, well, and help me understand, right? So you ask questions like, did you, when you say this, this is how I'm interpreting it,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
is that

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
accurate, right? So you maybe use your steel man idea here

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
to say, hey, am I really understanding what you're getting at? And a lot of times, Um, you know, I don't remember who said this, but there's like, like six levels of communication. It's like what, what I said, what you heard. And then it's like what I meant and then what you think I meant. Right.

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
And then it's like, it's

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
all

Charles:
I've seen

Dan:
these

Charles:
that

Dan:
different

Charles:
before.

Dan:
flavors

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
of, of when you, when somebody says a statement to somebody else. So, um, yeah, I think, I think a good approach is start with your steel man, you know, and, uh, and it just makes you around the same page with understanding what, what they're actually asking.

Charles:
Yeah, or, or like you and I have talked about before where, um, whenever you're, whenever you're going to ask someone for something, never take the roundabout way. You know, like the example you and I talked about was like, okay, if I say, Hey Dan, what are you doing next Saturday? Do you have any plans for next Saturday? You don't know if I'm about to ask you to help me move or if I'd like to take you out to a nice steak dinner. And so I'm

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
just saying, you know, what are you doing next Saturday? And then. You have to be like, uh, you know, you can't say, well, it depends. So that that's where you and I talked about where it's, it's always lead with

Dan:
Hey, you home?

Charles:
lead, lead with the need, you know, that's, that's the thing to do lead with the need. So start

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
by saying, Hey, Dan, I gotta, I gotta move my camper next Saturday. If you're around and if you're willing, I could really use your help.

Dan:
click.

Charles:
It's instead of. By the way, when I was in Tome Depot yesterday and I mentioned the fact of you helping me replace my awning, all I got was crickets.

Dan:
Oh, I didn't hear, dude, I don't.

Charles:
No, I texted you, I said, for one of our next projects, I need you to help me replace the awning on my camper. You did not address it at all.

Dan:
I must have got, not a, dude, not a problem. I'm sorry. I didn't realize I, I don't even remember

Charles:
I

Dan:
you

Charles:
know,

Dan:
asking me that.

Charles:
I assumed you missed it, but I thought it was funny. I even did the little cringy emoji, like, uh-oh,

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
I'm about to ask you to help me do something I don't know exactly how to do and I've never done before, and you didn't address it so I thought I'd tease you

Dan:
I,

Charles:
about it later.

Dan:
you listen, man, I must've been, yeah, I must've been totally, I totally missed all of that. I may have read it and said, I may have interpreted as, hey, I'm going to do this, not I need your help to do this. And so I was like, okay, and so you're gonna

Charles:
Hehehehe

Dan:
replace the awning. Yeah, I'm happy to do that, no problem.

Charles:
I know, I know you would be and I'm just, I'm just teasing you about it. But I thought

Dan:
All right,

Charles:
it was funny that I, that I,

Dan:
all right.

Charles:
that

Dan:
That's

Charles:
I

Dan:
ironic.

Charles:
brought it up

Dan:
Holy God, that's funny.

Charles:
and,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
uh, yeah. And you didn't, you didn't mention it, but anyway, um,

Dan:
Well,

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
there's

Charles:
So,

Dan:
your answer.

Charles:
so exactly what's the, what, what day are you doing that? I got to wash my hair.

Dan:
Yeah. Hehehehehehehehe.

Charles:
Yeah. So that, that's the thing where, um, so yeah, getting back to the idea of lead with the need, um, You don't have to use the word need. You could say, hey, look, I've been thinking about something. Every time this thing happens or this thing doesn't happen, I feel kind of shitty. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I don't like feeling shitty when I feel shitty. I'm not the best man I could be. I'm not the best partner I could be. So I know you don't want me to feel shitty either. So what can we, is there something we can do to work together so that this thing happens

Dan:
I feel less

Charles:
less

Dan:
shitty. Yeah.

Charles:
or happens more. And so I feel less shitty, you know, that, that could be the way that conversation happens. It's, and with that, I would say there's very little implication of or else.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
At least I didn't feel my, my oral spider sense didn't go off when I heard myself saying it. So

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
maybe that might work for somebody else too. I

Dan:
Again,

Charles:
don't know.

Dan:
right? Like I said, there's, I mean, there's certain words people use that are just going to trigger certain emotions, right? And need

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
just might be one of them for you, right? And, and it probably would be for me too, right? If somebody's going to cut, that's a strong word. When somebody says I need, it's like versus I'd like, or, you know, I want,

Charles:
Yeah, but I feel

Dan:
you

Charles:
like

Dan:
know,

Charles:
I agree with you, but I also feel like the burden is on me to get okay with hearing I need. It's not on them to not use the word. The

Dan:
I-I

Charles:
if

Dan:
agree.

Charles:
one of us has to change, it's definitely me.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
So, okay, there were a couple other things I know we're getting about 53 minutes in. I want to definitely cover a couple of things before we stop, which is

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
one thing he said was, you know, don't have. heavy negative conversations about things like politics, religion, social issues. Um, yeah, I, I don't, I don't agree with that. I talking about those things for me is an intimate experience with my friends and my partners, and I don't want it to be unpleasant. I don't want to turn into, you know, a, an emotionally escalated argument by any means, but. You know, I feel like I've got. The place in this world that I would like to carve out for myself is the one where I think about and talk about important things that affects me and the people around me. And so the idea of, you know, women aren't for having serious conversations with it. You'll just bump them out. It's like, no, not, not the ones I'm interested in spending time with. And so, you know, I'm going to, um, now look, if, if you, if you do have a partner where those kinds of conversations. can either wear on them or trigger them, then you need to be, you need to be kind of cognizant of the fact that it may be. It may be your responsibility to say, Hey, I saw this news story about this thing that's going on in our country, in our world, whatever. And I got some strong opinions on it. I'd like to talk about it. Are you up for that right now? Or is now not the time? I think that's a reasonable thing

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
to ask the people in your life. When you want to talk about something that is either hurting people or is controversial or, you know, is very polarizing. If you know that you're with somebody that. Isn't always in a head space to get into the weeds on stuff like that. It's probably a good idea to give them the courtesy of, Hey, this is on my mind. Can you get into it with me right now? Or should we talk about it later?

Dan:
Yeah, I think that's a good approach because,

Charles:
And if,

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
and if their answer is no, I can never talk about it. I don't like having these conversations. Then, then you need to decide, okay, well, you know, maybe, you know, how important is that to me? Is that something I can get with my friends or is that something I need from my romantic relationship? And then,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, you have to act accordingly.

Dan:
There you go throwing that n-word around Charles

Charles:
Yeah, that's me.

Dan:
Need

Charles:
One thing I knew which one you met. I was like,

Dan:
Okay, just...

Charles:
I'm pretty sure I didn't say the other one, so you must have met Need.

Dan:
I wasn't sure.

Charles:
Um... Hehehehehehe

Dan:
I didn't quite get enough sarcasm from your tone. That's why I clarified it.

Charles:
Uh, the other one that I wanted to mention is, uh, even if you are somehow able to keep it light and relaxed, still never brag about yourself. And I would say never even get close to bragging about yourself. I mean, one of the things you and I talk about all the time is whenever you and I get dressed up to go for an evening out and we have an interaction with another man at the bar, at the restaurant, whatever. It's happened, I'd say more than a handful of times where that guy instantly feels like he needs to start telling stories about how successful he is to us.

Dan:
Yeah, that's true.

Charles:
Whether it's how successful he is in business or in getting women or whatever. It's just,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
we, we get these guys that feel like they have to start selling us on the story of how great they are. And, and again, you and I just sort of give each other this knowing glance of. You know, hey Dan, remember how the guy who's really successful at these things never feels the need to tell people?

Dan:
Hehehe Yeah, I mean,

Charles:
So,

Dan:
you know...

Charles:
and I would say women have the, a better radar than even you and I do probably of detecting the, the bragging bullshit artists than we do. And I'll bet the guys that do it to us probably ramp it up 10 fold to do it to women.

Dan:
Oh, could be, could be, or could it just be, you know, we decided to wear jackets and now they feel like they need to, you know, like suit jackets and they feel

Charles:
Yeah...

Dan:
like they need to,

Charles:
Ugh...

Dan:
because they're not wearing something that dressy in order to keep our interest and be in our level, they need to compensate in some way and they end up overdoing it a little bit.

Charles:
I know, but even that is, that's even cringy. Even if that is the motivation, it's still like,

Dan:
Yes, because...

Charles:
oh, this guy put on a jacket, so now I have to prove myself to him.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, you know, people

Charles:
And

Dan:
aren't

Charles:
you know,

Dan:
perfect,

Charles:
how you do anything

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
is how you do everything, Dan. So

Dan:
right?

Charles:
I'll bet,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I'll bet it's not just a unique reaction they have to suit jackets. It's probably,

Dan:
That's fair.

Charles:
it's probably

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
guys with a good physique. It's probably guys wearing an expensive watch. It's probably pretty girls. It's probably, it's probably everybody that has any kind of a indicator of status that might put them above, above how they feel about themselves.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, stop looking around and start looking within, you know?

Charles:
Yeah. So yeah, do not, do not sell your accomplishments to people. Um, and again, I mean, it really, the people who have the accomplishments, they come up eventually in an organic way and you can, and they managed to impress people, but they don't do it by. Trying to cleverly shoehorn it in or by just blatantly say, I made a million dollars last year. It's like.

Dan:
Hehehehe

Charles:
And the guy who did make a million dollars last year and still feels a need to tell people he made a million dollars last year, that might be the worst of the worst, you know what I mean? Cause it's like, okay, well now I understand why you're, why you're chasing this money so you can have conversations

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
like this in bars with strangers.

Dan:
Seems like a lot of work.

Charles:
It sure does. Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned before about how valuable storytelling is and how it's important to be a good storyteller. Because when you're a good storyteller, people assume you're smart. People assume you have high status. Um, I don't know what resources are out there to practice becoming a better storyteller other than telling stories. But I feel like if you're a crappy storyteller and you don't know it, you could just continue being a crappy storyteller. So I would say. look into what you can do to be a better storyteller.

Dan:
So I did that.

Charles:
Oh, awesome. What'd you,

Dan:
I wanna be a better storyteller.

Charles:
what'd you

Dan:
And

Charles:
find?

Dan:
so I've got storytelling coaches, just like there's a coach for everything,

Charles:
Wow.

Dan:
there's

Charles:
Interesting.

Dan:
storytelling coaches. A lot of them are focused on executives and businesses and telling a story around a product or around data. And so that was kind of where a lot of them were leaning towards, or being able to communicate a little bit better with employees and people that you're managing. But the principles are pretty much the same. regardless of who your target audience is. And so yeah, I actually reached out. So we'll see, we'll see what they come back with, but there's quite a few out there if you Google storytelling coach.

Charles:
That would be somebody I would definitely be interested in talking to on the show. We should, uh...

Dan:
Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, people, I mean, a lot of it also is surrounded or they have services, uh, prepare a Ted, a Ted talk, right? So if you're,

Charles:
Mmm.

Dan:
if you are people who are looking to become a Ted talk or public speaker, so it's not much different, I feel like then the toast masters, um, but there might be a little bit more, you know, uh, personalized one-on-one.

Charles:
Yeah. I was going to say I would, I would be interested in somebody who, who focuses on, and again, if, if there's, if there's a niche you can think of, then there's probably somebody who's serving it. Like, how do I get better at telling my personal story? Like,

Dan:
Yes.

Charles:
how do I get better at telling, you know, either funny things that happened to me or what my college experience was like? Like, how do I, how do I

Dan:
And

Charles:
take,

Dan:
that's what I'm looking

Charles:
you know,

Dan:
for,

Charles:
the,

Dan:
actually. Yeah,

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
exactly.

Charles:
yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd be interested in that as well. Um, so another way that I think you can. You could help your, and this occurred to me while I was rereading this chapter this morning, that you could help yourself out and being a better storyteller. If you have a solid journaling practice,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
then you're going to be able to refer back to things that happened to you. And ideally how you felt about those things as they were happening and be able to use that to, because the good stories always have an emotional component to them

Dan:
Absolutely.

Charles:
where it's not just.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Here are the facts. First I did this, then I did this, then I did that, then I did that, then I did that and went to sleep. Like that's, that's

Dan:
That's

Charles:
not

Dan:
not

Charles:
the kind

Dan:
a story.

Charles:
of story.

Dan:
That's

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
right.

Charles:
That is, that is, yeah, just you recounting

Dan:
It's a

Charles:
an

Dan:
shopping

Charles:
event.

Dan:
list.

Charles:
Right. Exactly. Where, um, yeah, the, the emotional part is huge. So if you're, you know, every day, something's going to happen to you and you're going to have feelings about that thing, and if you do a good job of journaling that, then yeah, that's. That's something that you can, you can mine later on for being able to share and connect with people. Um,

Dan:
You know, one of the, one of the best tips

Charles:
another.

Dan:
that I,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I've heard is you want to paint a picture. You want to try to use your words to describe things and paint a picture as part of, of that story.

Charles:
Yeah, I mean, that's what good, uh, you know, all the successful authors who are on the fiction bestsellers

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
list, that's, that's what they do. They're able to go into so much detail that you feel like, you feel like you're in the situ, the setting that they're describing and yeah, that really needs to, needs to be part of your storytelling. Uh, the other thing I wanted to say was, uh, develop the skill of asking great follow-up questions, because, uh, when you're trying to get to know somebody new. Um, particularly a man's trying to get to know a woman, uh, you should spend most of the time listening to her talk about herself and you should make her comfortable talking about herself. You, you want her to share about her and you know, you, you'll, you'll share about you too. That is part of the thing. I'm not saying don't do that at all and don't try to just, you know, sidestep every question and not give a straight answer. That's not what I'm saying, but I am saying you want to learn about her nature. I mean, that's one of the things that Glover talks about in dating essentials for men is like the purpose of dating, like the earlier you are in the relationship, the more your, your goal is to, I want to understand what this woman's about so that I can figure out if she would be a good fit for me and I'd be a good fit for her. And the way you do that is by having her talk about herself as, as much as she's comfortable with and the way you can keep that going is by asking good follow-up questions. So. It's almost like the other side of being a good storyteller. It's like, she's

Dan:
Hmm

Charles:
got a good story to tell you and your good follow-up questions will make her a better storyteller.

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
So,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
so study that and,

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
and figure out, you know, I would say just thinking about it off the top of my head is when she does tell you a fact, get to the how and the why, like, oh, how did that come about? Or why did it happen that way? Or. How did you feel about it? Or, you know, and I would say.

Dan:
Come in with a curious mindset.

Charles:
curious in general, but not just curious about the, when was this? What was it? You know, what year did this happen? Where,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
where were you living at the time? That the how and the why will be more valuable to you than the, the when and the where.

Dan:
Right. Yeah. Certain certain words are going to be prompting better, better responses.

Charles:
for

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
keeping you both emotionally engaged. The how and the why is where the real meat of any story is.

Dan:
Right, so I mean, look at, you know, depending on the question that you're asking, you're going to be leaning towards a one word answer or you won't be, right? So when,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
that's gonna be a one word answer usually, right?

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Whereas

Charles:
2012.

Dan:
how and why,

Charles:
Boom.

Dan:
right? How and why, you know, there's gonna be some meat there behind that and some thinking required, right? So what kind of questions can you ask to generate thinking?

Charles:
Yes, I, I agree because yeah, the more somebody's thinking, it's not just thinking when you're thinking, you're also feeling.

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
And if you're, if you're just reciting a script, you don't have to do either of those things.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
But, and again, good followup questions can, can get people off their script because, you know, if, if you're with a girl who's been on dates and, and kind of knows what guys ask, you know, where are you from? Where'd you grow up? What do you do for a living? You know, It's easy to answer those questions without thinking we're feeling very much. But while you can start with those questions to get the conversation rolling, then you focus on something that you find interesting in her answer to that question, and then you drop the how or the why,

Dan:
And

Charles:
and

Dan:
I'll

Charles:
then

Dan:
even

Charles:
all of

Dan:
say-

Charles:
a sudden you guys might be in a new area.

Dan:
I'll throw some what in there too, right? So, you know, what, what led you to do this or, you know, what, what caused this?

Charles:
I

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
would say that is a why disguised as a what.

Dan:
Well, I feel like it is, but why could

Charles:
Which

Dan:
be

Charles:
is good.

Dan:
a little bit, a little bit confrontational if it's somewhat, right? So it's like, well, why did you do this? Or versus what caused this

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
to happen, right? So it's a little

Charles:
If

Dan:
bit

Charles:
she

Dan:
of

Charles:
says,

Dan:
a nuance, right?

Charles:
I left my first husband because he hit me, why?

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
It's not

Dan:
right.

Charles:
probably, probably not the best answer.

Dan:
Or the best question. It's not even,

Charles:
Right. Yeah. The best,

Dan:
that's not the best

Charles:
it's

Dan:
question,

Charles:
not the best

Dan:
Alex.

Charles:
response. Yeah. That's not the best response. You're right. Um, okay. One last point that I wanted to make was, um, be ready with compliments, but be careful with compliments. And, uh, one way that I think you can, um, because again, when you compliment somebody, complimenting a beautiful woman is tough because she's been hearing the same compliments for probably her whole life or close to it, right. And just saying, you know, your eyes are beautiful or your hair's so pretty. Internally, she's probably thinking something along the lines of I know, or yeah, I've heard, or, so, you know, if you're, if you're just hitting her with something that she's used to hearing, which again, you know, pretty women are used to hearing how and why men think they're pretty. So you've got to be a little bit more creative than that because it also, the easy compliment is the compliment that doesn't feel like it requires much thought. And it also does not set you apart from all the other guys that have complimented her on that thing.

Dan:
Right. You know, also look at, try to find something to compliment her on where it required a little bit of creativity and effort on her part. And it wasn't like, oh, you've got pretty eyes, which she came out of the womb with those things. So she

Charles:
Correct,

Dan:
had no responsibility.

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
So you're not even really complimenting her. You might be complimenting the selection process of her parents. So...

Charles:
Correct, yeah that's a good point, yeah.

Dan:
So, you know, look, I mean, you know, what kind of jewelry is she wearing? What kind of dress is she wearing? What, you know, what does the jewelry match the dress, you know, or the shoes? Right. Is there some sort of coordination that went on? Is it something unique? Is it something that, you know, maybe you've got some questions about because you've never seen that kind of thing before. Right. There's there's a lot of there's a lot of things that, you know, hey, is there a story behind, you know, that? you know, those earrings or that necklace, you know, where did you get,

Charles:
Yeah, that's

Dan:
you

Charles:
what,

Dan:
know,

Charles:
uh, yeah. Uh, Dr. Glover talks about that where whenever he travels, he tries to pick up some sort of an accessory or a piece of clothing so that when he wears it out and somebody asks him about it, he always has a good story of, yeah, I picked this up in Peru or I picked this up when I was in London or something like that. And, uh, yeah. And that's, that's good advice for men too, which is, you know, um, be willing to, to wear some nice accessories and try to make them things that. have a good story behind them so that when somebody either compliments or notices or whatever, you can, you know, that's something you have something to talk about because I think, I think women will often do that intuitively where they, they will often have, if they're, if they're wearing a piece of jewelry, then I think there's a good chance they, they have a story and they know the story behind it. So if you remark on that, then you're also giving her something in experience or, or something to share with you. Even if you are going to compliment her on something that I would agree with you that complimenting on choices or taste is better than complimenting her on just genetic, you know,

Dan:
luck.

Charles:
a roll of the genetic dice that she happened to win. Yeah,

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
But if you are going to compliment her on her eyes or her hair or, you know, I'd probably stick to those. I don't know that. You know, complimenting a woman that you've just met on her breasts or her, or her bottom is probably a good move. Um,

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
but if you are going to compliment on something about her physical appearance, don't just say you have beautiful eyes. Don't just say, you know, that your hair's pretty, something like that. Start with the, I like, or I find it attractive that, and so basically make you the subject of the sentence

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
and then address how, how you like the thing or how you find the thing appealing that you're about to compliment her on, not just an, you know, objective, like your eyes are nice. That's like your cars. I like your car. I like your eyes. It's like, it's like, you're just addressing,

Dan:
versus

Charles:
you know, an objective standard of an odd, no, no talk,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
bring it to you. Like, I like this about you. I find this attractive about you. And cause then you're also. Putting. Something that you're thinking that she would not know you're thinking you're putting it out there which shows a level of courage it's not just

Dan:
Yeah. I mean, there's

Charles:
Your

Dan:
different,

Charles:
eyes

Dan:
right.

Charles:
are nice. It's I like your blue eyes or your blue eyes remind me of Dot-dot-dot like stuff like that is going to be far more valuable than just like you have beautiful eyes

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
All right. That's all the stuff I wanted to talk about in this section. Do you have anything?

Dan:
All right, I think I'm good as well.

Charles:
Okay, cool. Well, we made it through. And before we started, I asked you if you had a heart out at 11 and we've gone 22 minutes after that. So thank you for your patience.

Dan:
My pleasure. It's always a good time.

Charles:
I will chat with you again soon, Dan.

Dan:
All right, man, have a good one. Bye bye.

Charles:
Bye.