Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Touching Ladies--Without Being Creepy

August 29, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles Calabritto & Dan Littman Episode 95
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Touching Ladies--Without Being Creepy
Show Notes Transcript

If you're going to date, marry, and mate with a lady, at some point, you'll probably have to touch her. Initiating physical touch can feel like a tricky subject for inexperienced men and men who are bad-daters. In this episode we'll talk about some principles to remember when it comes to physical touch, so that you'll be touching women in ways they enjoy, and at a pace you're both comfortable with, and neither of you regret.

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Dan:
Good evening, Charles. How are we today?

Charles:
Oh, Dan, evening. I stopped

Dan:
Hehehe

Charles:
being evening a few hours ago. This is, this is the middle of the night for me.

Dan:
Good evening, good evening, good

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
night.

Charles:
we're

Dan:
See,

Charles:
we

Dan:
what do you say? You can't say good night, because then it's like we're closing it down, right?

Charles:
I say Bonsoir, but that's

Dan:
What was

Charles:
because

Dan:
the

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
oh,

Charles:
a Frank,

Dan:
okay,

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
because

Charles:
a Francophile.

Dan:
you're because

Charles:
So yeah.

Dan:
you're shmancy. Yeah.

Charles:
Yeah. I'm fluent in French. Um, yeah, no, we're, we're recording at your house. It's almost 10 o'clock at night, which is insane. Cause you and I do not do our best work after 3 PM I would say. So I was trying to, uh, trying to break one of these out at 10 is definitely a tall order, but you're, uh, you're leaving town

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
soon and, uh,

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
we're up against it. So it is what it is.

Dan:
Yeah, let's get a couple of these in the hopper as soon as possible so that

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
we can live a life a little bit here too.

Charles:
Yeah, I'm recording from the studio and you are recording from your office.

Dan:
And you know, this

Charles:
We,

Dan:
is the

Charles:
uh.

Dan:
first time we've done anything from that studio. So

Charles:
That's true.

Dan:
we

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
were planning on doing video, right? But that we we've

Charles:
But

Dan:
hit

Charles:
we're

Dan:
a couple of snags. So

Charles:
a couple snags.

Dan:
at least we're doing

Charles:
We

Dan:
audio

Charles:
got,

Dan:
though.

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
we got a, we got one, one camera that won't hold a charge. And we've got one cable that the manufacturer of our video board specifically says in the instruction manual, don't use this cable. But, uh, I used my normal Amazon buying procedure, which was, you know, Oh, what's the, what's the thing I'm looking for with the most positive reviews? And I'll just buy that. And then, uh, we start troubleshooting and going down various rabbit holes to figure out why our audio sounded weird. And, uh, you know, as last resort, we finally broke open the instruction manual. It says, as far as we know, this cable never works.

Dan:
Yeah. Hey,

Charles:
So there we are.

Dan:
but you know what? At least, at least they had that listed there. I mean, I feel like that's, that's good detailed information for the people who actually read manuals before they do stuff. But we do not

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
fall into that category being

Charles:
No,

Dan:
it

Charles:
we do

Dan:
guys.

Charles:
not.

Dan:
And

Charles:
Correct.

Dan:
sometimes just being guys, we

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
don't like to

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
our TFM, right?

Charles:
Right, yes, but I will be buying, there is a cable that is recommended with a USB-C connection and a separate cable with a USB-A and I will be buying two of each of them so that you and I will never, we will never want for a functional cable that is endorsed by the manufacturer of our board.

Dan:
Right, right. We are

Charles:
Holy

Dan:
so we

Charles:
cow.

Dan:
were so close to actually recording the video in the studio today. Um,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
so I feel like though we ironed out quite a bit and um, I think we're right at the end here. So I think the next time we uh, we get together, we're gonna be able to do it. So I'm, I am, I am still optimistic.

Charles:
Yeah, I think we've got our camera settings under control. We've got the lighting situation under control. Um, we know how we need to power things on in the right order and all that. So again, what else could go wrong? I don't know, but, uh, I guess we'll find out.

Dan:
It's an adventure.

Charles:
So yeah, no kidding. I have a lot of respect for the people that are able to make this work and just, you know, kind of know how to set this up. and just get it right the first time. But look, I was on the TV production team in high school, but that has been, I know as cool as I am, that would shock all of our listeners. Like, no, surely you played football and basketball. No, I was on the TV production team and I was good at it back then, but it's been a long time.

Dan:
You're still good at it. You're still good at it. Don't,

Charles:
Well,

Dan:
uh, you know,

Charles:
I,

Dan:
I mean,

Charles:
okay, you're

Dan:
there's

Charles:
right.

Dan:
no way I would have, there's no way I would have, uh, done all of what you've set up in the, in the studio there by myself or, you know, you've, you've done most of that work. So, um, you know, I thank you for that. And so definitely give

Charles:
Hopefully

Dan:
yourself

Charles:
it

Dan:
some,

Charles:
turned

Dan:
some credit for,

Charles:
hopefully it will

Dan:
for getting

Charles:
it will

Dan:
there.

Charles:
turn into something eventually that we can share

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
with the world

Dan:
it will. It

Charles:
Sure,

Dan:
will. I'm confident.

Charles:
yeah Yeah, hopefully in the next two or three episodes. We we get one that we can let loose from the studio Okay, so this is this is attempt number two to cover the material that we're gonna cover today

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
Because this is a weird topic man, it's like yeah, how do you give advice to guys specifically, on how to touch the girls that they're interested in a way that isn't weird or creepy or a crime or just awkward, you know?

Dan:
Yeah, it's, you know, and there's, there's a spot in here that I re-read and just registered with me while I was, you know, waiting for you to tinker around in the studio, whatever. That was a pretty good piece of advice there in terms of testing. And just like we talk about, you know, you just basically kind of, you got to kind of test for interest, you got to put your feelers out there. And it's just kind of, you just need to figure out, you know, how to read the situation, read the vibes that you're getting, the vibes that you're giving out. And there's, there is a tip in here that I thought was pretty, pretty valuable, um, that we'll get into when, when the time comes.

Charles:
Okay, yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And again, hopefully I won't bail on this one halfway through because it felt weird like the first attempt did. But yeah, so we know that touch is important. We know that when a mother is bonding to her kid, touch is a huge factor in that. We know that, I mean, most of us like being hugged and like when people we like or love touch us, it feels good. And so... It's like, what's the right way to introduce that into a new relationship with somebody that you're just getting to know. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
how do you do it in a way that's not awkward or creepy or whatever? And you know, I, I don't know exactly. I know that, you know, when you're attracted to somebody, you want them to touch you. And when you were not attracted to them or unattracted to them, or you don't like them, then if they, I mean, we, We've all seen either stories or witness firsthand, you know, the, the weird family member, whether it's an uncle or somebody's cousin, who's always, you know, like, ah, come give me a hug. And you don't really want to give them a hug and it makes you feel

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
weird and uncomfortable. It's like, we're not, we're not on hugging terms and you, you ordering me to give you a hug makes it 10 times worse than it would if I could just not hug you anyway. You know what I mean?

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
So

Dan:
yeah, I feel like in those cases, right, those weird family members and stuff that you probably barely know, right? Because

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
if you knew them and you liked them, you wouldn't have a problem giving them a hug, right? Or whatever. And I feel like a lot of times when somebody's like, hey, give me a hug or whatever, it's just you don't know them really that well. Or they're, you know, I mean, as a little kid, do you really know your... grandparents at all? It's more like, all right, they're kind of hanging

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
out. They're like maybe in the same room, you know, and it's like a couple of times a year during the holidays, you know, that's not enough. I'm sorry. Like for me to feel comfortable. I think for most people, you know, like, and it's just, yeah. Um, and you know, also the big age disparity, even if you did know them, it's just, it's

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
hard, you know, do you really know them? It's, it's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
not like a friend. you know, that, you know, that you see and that you've chosen, right? Family, you don't choose, you know, the friends that you have stuff in common with and, and you've got a lot more opportunities to bond and have shared experiences and things like that, that I feel like, you know, when, you know, when you see your guy friends and you give them a hug or, you know, a handshake and stuff, it's, it's a lot.

Charles:
Yeah. And, uh, you know, one of the things that I've, I've picked up on, you know, since I follow so many accounts on mental health Instagram is, uh, you know, now it seems like a lot more parents are, are making the decision of, you know, when it comes to raising their kids, like, no, we do not, we do not coerce our children into hugging relatives when they don't want to, because what, you know, what kind of message does that send? Like, I know your body's telling you, you don't want to do this and it makes you uncomfortable, but do it anyway because it's expected of you. And then, you know, what does that lead to as you grow up? What, what kind of, you know, body autonomy issues and stuff can you run into when you're being forced? You know, your body's telling you for whatever reason, I don't want to hug them. It kind of kind of weirds me out. But then your parents are saying, do it anyway. You know

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
what? Uh, that isn't, that is not a pattern that you want to set in your kids.

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
And

Dan:
no.

Charles:
I would say, so So yeah, so that brings us to the topic of, you know, when you're trying to interact with someone, you know, I guess normal people who aren't like me, you know, just are able to very easily kind of have a feel of when you should touch someone, when you shouldn't touch someone, when you wanna be touched. I mean, my default setting is kinda don't touch me. And, you know, not when I'm close to someone, when I'm in a relationship or, you know, when, you know, I see a friend and we're, you know, having dinner together and we haven't seen each other in a few weeks or months or whatever, then I'm, I'm all down for a big hug. But yeah, when it comes to somebody new touching me and somebody new, you know, when whenever I meet somebody and I go to shake their hand and they give me the, Oh, I'm not a shaker. I'm a hugger. I was like, I'm a, I'm a stand outsider. I'll see you later.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
It's like, you know, it's, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but there's, there's definitely some, I definitely have some energy around. this chapter and this subject where it does make me feel a little weird. And so I think we'll explore that together as we work through the text.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah, I don't think you're alone by any means. You know, I think there's lots of people who, and these days, especially after COVID and stuff, people were,

Charles:
Mm.

Dan:
you know, extra

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
funny about touching and some people would only do a fist bump and not a shake of the hand and now people

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
are going back shaking hands. And so some people it gets awkward because some people stick out the fist and some people will shake the hand. So listen, man, you're not alone. That's very common. And especially with I guess people being super sensitive about things and everything being recorded, potentially, you know, people being sued for the most ridiculous things. I think people are like extra careful these days about any type of, you know, touching, you know, any kind of physical interaction with other people.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
You know, I think people are very, very sensitive about that. So I

Charles:
Are

Dan:
don't

Charles:
they

Dan:
think you're

Charles:
though?

Dan:
alone

Charles:
I

Dan:
by

Charles:
mean,

Dan:
any means.

Charles:
do you know our, our guys,

Dan:
Some people are

Charles:
our

Dan:
not,

Charles:
guys,

Dan:
but

Charles:
our guys in their early

Dan:
some people

Charles:
twenties

Dan:
are.

Charles:
who are drunk in a nightclub at one o'clock, are they going to be like, Oh, I don't want to get me to it. Or are they just going to be on autopilot? You know, if they're,

Dan:
Okay,

Charles:
if their

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
touchers

Dan:
but...

Charles:
are going to touch and if they're not, they're not.

Dan:
Right, but why are you comparing yourself to just them? There's plenty

Charles:
Oh, I'm

Dan:
of

Charles:
not

Dan:
other

Charles:
comparing

Dan:
people

Charles:
myself.

Dan:
you can compare

Charles:
Not,

Dan:
yourself.

Charles:
no, I'm not comparing.

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
I'm not comparing myself. I'm just saying, I mean, Oh no, I might get sued. That does not factor in with me at all to, you know, who, who I touch or who I don't touch because I do feel like, you know, even, even if I'm not a natural toucher, I can kind of read the room a little bit and know whether, you know, and, and again, I mean, and we'll talk about this when, when you're in a relationship with someone or you're getting to know someone, you know, physical touch is something that escalates where. we've kind of decided as a society that shaking hands with someone that you meet is okay. And few people

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
have an issue with that. I mean, you know, COVID aside and, and germophobia

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
aside, most people are fine with, you know, shaking hands when you meet somebody. And even shaking hands and then putting your other hand on, on their elbow or their forearm or whatever, that's pretty much accepted, pretty much fine. I would say it's really only, you know, when you're, when you're talking with someone and you're using your hands to gesture and things like that. You know, at what point do you put your hand on someone's shoulder while you're telling them a story? Or at what point when you're sitting next to them, do you put your hand on their leg? And I don't know, I've certainly, there's been plenty of people, women in particular, in my life that I've gone from not knowing or ever touching before in either of our lives to touching a lot. And somehow

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I... I was able to walk my way through that progression and I don't have any, you know, I don't have any method or instruction manual that I followed except, you know, it just, I did what felt appropriate and felt right as I was getting to know the person more and more. And so, you know, through, through this chapter, it's like, yes, you go from talking to someone that you've never touched before to possibly dating them or sleeping with them or marrying them or whatever. And so as part of that, you're going to work your way through a progression of, uh, more and more touching. And you know, it's, it's weird. I feel like the author and us are in a position where we're supposed to advise on how that happens, but I don't know exactly how to do that. Cause I just know when it has felt natural for me and you know, I've, I've so far dodged, you know, getting smacked or anybody saying stop touching me or why are you being weird or anything like that? Probably because I've gone slower than I've had to go in most cases, you know, but that's fine I'm okay with that and I would encourage guys that are okay with that, you know Look you may let chemistry go cold if you're not comfortable with touching someone and reading their body language and Progressing at the level they want you to so there is a risk, you know in letting things grow cold, too but I don't know it feels like You're there. There's a, there's a path to walk. That's just right. And I don't know how to tell somebody else how to find it.

Dan:
So I disagree. I don't think there is

Charles:
Oh,

Dan:
one path.

Charles:
please.

Dan:
Yeah, I don't think there's one path. That's just right. I think what you do, what you described is kind of the, maybe what you described is the path, which is you kind of went with what felt comfortable at the time. And you just

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
let it happen

Charles:
I don't

Dan:
naturally,

Charles:
mean there's, I don't mean there's

Dan:
you

Charles:
one

Dan:
know,

Charles:
path for,

Dan:
not

Charles:
for all men and for all women. I mean, for a given interaction

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
with a particular person, there's probably

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
just the right, you know, there's the Goldilocks zone of how much to be touching them. And I can't tell you, you know, some future interaction you may or may not have. I can't tell you how to find that Goldilocks zone. And I don't think the author of this book can either.

Dan:
No, for me, it's just been a general rule. When I'm having a great conversation with somebody and I feel like we're on the same page and maybe we're both laughing about something, I might initiate a little tap on the wrist or maybe on the

Charles:
Mm,

Dan:
side

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
of the arm, whatever, but the upper body, right? And a very,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
very non-sexual part of your body, just

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
a tap, just a touch, in the middle of us laughing about something or whatever that might be, or, you know, If I, if I have to really, if I want to really interrupt something and, and make a point, I might just do a quick little tap and play it from there and just see, you know, is there any type of reciprocation back? You know, are they tapping me back? And this goes for like a guy or girl and just connecting with anybody at that point. And if they, if they then respond back and we continue to vibe, you know, from a, from when we're talking, then Maybe I'll initiate and do a little bit more, but if I'm not getting anything back, then I won't push the issue. I'm just trying to read the room.

Charles:
Yeah. Um, yeah, I guess so. So what are the, what are the ways you can definitely screw it up? I guess that's, that's one of the questions. And you know, one

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
of those would be, um, you're touching somebody too soon is definitely going to, um, be weird. I mean, I, I know stories of, you know, bosses who would walk up behind somebody sitting in their chair, trying to do their job and start rubbing on their shoulders. And

Dan:
See a

Charles:
stuff

Dan:
rubbing,

Charles:
like that.

Dan:
that's where I have a problem. A little

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
tap,

Charles:
absolutely.

Dan:
maybe a tap, maybe a tap to ask them to do something,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
right? And he talks about that a little bit too. A tap, you get just to kind of get their attention and then you

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
take your hand off. The rubbing that is never appropriate. I feel, once you're in a relationship with somebody,

Charles:
Right, yeah, I would

Dan:
I'm

Charles:
agree

Dan:
not

Charles:
with

Dan:
a fan

Charles:
that.

Dan:
of that. Oh,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
speaking

Charles:
I need,

Dan:
of which, remember,

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
remember what happened at KetoCon when I met that guy.

Charles:
I remember

Dan:
Anyway,

Charles:
there was something.

Dan:
I had no,

Charles:
What was?

Dan:
yeah, he was, yeah, he was a friend of a friend and I don't want to talk about who that was, but

Charles:
And he started rubbing.

Dan:
just, he said rubbing my shoulders the first time I met him in person. Like we'd seen him, we'd seen and maybe commented on Facebook, on each other's posts once in a while. And, you know, he's a good friend of another friend, but I never met this guy in person. And I think he like rubbed my shoulders twice, like after meeting me. the first time. And I remember saying something to you, like, what's, what's happening here? Cause that's doesn't happen very often.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I love, I love a massage, but usually when, when I arranged for one, not

Charles:
Right, yes, yeah,

Dan:
been

Charles:
with

Dan:
just,

Charles:
a

Dan:
Hey,

Charles:
licensed therapist, yeah.

Dan:
it was odd for sure. I was

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
definitely.

Charles:
that is a weird move. I wonder if it's...

Dan:
I'm good with a shake and a hug, you know, but

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
anyway.

Charles:
I mean, does

Dan:
And when

Charles:
it?

Dan:
I say shake, when I say shake, I mean handshake, by the way.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
Let's just be clear.

Charles:
yeah, I knew that. Um, I thought you just want something to walk up to you and start doing this. Um, yeah, that's, that was weird. I do remember that now and I remember who you're talking about. And, uh, he

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
did

Dan:
he will

Charles:
have,

Dan:
remain nameless.

Charles:
if I remember correctly though, he did kind of have a bit of an imposing stature to him. He was a, he was a built

Dan:
He's a

Charles:
guy,

Dan:
big guy.

Charles:
right?

Dan:
He's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
a big guy,

Charles:
And

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
so, so yeah, I wonder how many people just go along with his, uh, his shoulder rubbing habit and, uh, Don't

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
say anything to him because it's weird to stop somebody and say, Hey, this is stop that. That's weird.

Dan:
Now it's a

Charles:
Knock

Dan:
scene,

Charles:
it off.

Dan:
right? Now you look weird because you're making right. Yeah.

Charles:
You don't though. I mean, that's the thing. It's, uh, you know, the, the person who says,

Dan:
Maybe.

Charles:
you know, don't do what you're

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
doing or stop it is, is definitely never the person that should feel strange. It's the, always the other person, but it's like the guy who thinks it's cool to do that. If you, if you like, Hey, back off, knock it off. I'm not, I didn't tell you could do that. He would probably react like, what's wrong with you? This is, you know, I'm just being friendly.

Dan:
Right. And that's why I said it would be weird for, you know, to kind of, I feel like it'd be like a scene because he'd be like, yeah, whoa, what am I doing wrong? Even though,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
yeah, it's weird. And it was.

Charles:
All right. I should have, uh, I should have intervened on your behalf, Dan. I should have, I should have stuck a finger in his ear or something to see, you know, like, Oh, okay, you're going to do this to my friend. I'm going to one up. Yeah. And,

Dan:
In his

Charles:
uh,

Dan:
rear?

Charles:
you know, in his ear,

Dan:
Oh

Charles:
maybe,

Dan:
ear oh.

Charles:
yeah. Or maybe put my fingers in his mouth while he was talking to you. Like what I thought, I thought we were just getting comfortable here, man. What's the problem?

Dan:
Oh boy. All right. So what is a, what does Mr. Canwell say about the magic of touch in this?

Charles:
Okay. Well, one of the things he says is, you know, and I agree with this, like if you're feeling it and you think that it's appropriate to give someone a, a nonsexual touch as you're laughing at their story or they're laughing at yours or whatever, uh, once you decide that you should touch them, just do it where if you, if you start, you know, moving toward them in a very slow and, uh, uncomfortable and uncertain way, then it's going to probably creep them out. You know, So, you know, moving with confidence is definitely a factor that will take some of the discomfort that you're feeling and that you might be worried that they're going to feel out of the mix. Because if you do it tentatively and uncertainly, it's going to feel weird.

Dan:
And, you know, right at the beginning of the chapter, he talks about, you know, when we touch each other, it releases oxytocin and that's, you know, the feel good hormone and,

Charles:
That's one of

Dan:
you

Charles:
my

Dan:
know,

Charles:
favorites.

Dan:
that gets released. So it gets, you know, it gets released from hugs and things like that. And he also makes the point that with, when it comes to communication with people and women especially. He mentions things like, you know, it shouldn't, you shouldn't have to verbalize or a few verbalize things. It tends to really diminish the.

Charles:
Mmm.

Dan:
The effect, the feeling, the moment, the connection, all those things when you bring awareness to it, ironically, right? So this is interesting, right?

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
So this is the mindfully masculine podcast where we talk about being mindful, about being like conscious about the things that we do. And. that one of the things that they talk about in meditation is labeling things through by, you know, putting a label on different things to help us realize what's going on and become a little bit more conscious of things. And ironically, we shouldn't have, we shouldn't be doing that when it comes to what we want with for a woman, for example, here, he says, you know, the touching is part of the way you tell a woman that you're interested in them. versus verbalizing it.

Charles:
Yes, there are definitely, you know, we talked about that, I think on our, on our episode about setting up a, or going on a first date with a woman where, man, if you, if you break out on a first date with somebody and you're like, I just want you to know that this is, I'm having a really special time and I'm really enjoying this. And you know, you start like labeling exactly what you're feeling while you're in the middle of, of experiencing a first date, then it does definitely seem. seem odd

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
and it is not something you should do, which is, you know, I'm preaching to the choir because, and you know, you and I have had discussions about this a lot. You and I, um, you know, we're in a culture that likes to engage in relationship talk a lot and, uh, a lot of meta analysis of, you know, let's have a conversation about the conversation we're having. And, um, Yeah, I feel like I've definitely done that too much in some of my relationships instead of just experiencing the relationship. It was let's experience it and analyze it and critique it and workshop it. And, you know, I think that is just, I think too much of that is absolutely a bad thing. I mean, if you're in a crisis that you're trying to work through with your relationship or with, you know, anything in your home life or your career or an illness or something like that, then yes, by all means talk about what everybody's feeling, what everybody's going through, but just spending endless time on analyzing and talking about the relationship so that you and your partner aren't spending your time being in the relationship and having fun in the relationship. You're just talking about the relationship nonstop. That is a recipe for disaster in this man's opinion.

Dan:
100%. I agree.

Charles:
And uh, yeah, and I've, I've spent time doing that cause it feels like what you're supposed to do. And you know, for the most part, women enjoy talking about relationships and they get something out of it. But I don't know that they get out of it. The thing that they're hoping to get out of it when, when you guys, you know, the man and the woman go too deep on relationship analysis 24 seven. Okay. So, uh, we can agree that, uh, we, we touch boldly when we make the decision. We don't, uh, we don't talk about touching, we just, we, we touch, we show, we don't tell. Um, we know that, um, you know, when two people are attracted to each other, engaging in physical touch is comforting and it sets people at ease where, um, you may worry that it's not going to do that. But, uh, again, if, if there's mutual attraction, mutual enjoyment of each other's company, then breaking the touch barrier can put both people at ease. not the opposite which you know the bad daters among us and the Men who are not confident at dating will feel like oh, no if I try to touch her it's gonna make things weird It's like no if you guys are getting along and there's a vibe there and you're attracted to each other and you're enjoying your time with each other that Touching adds to that. It does not take away from that

Dan:
Yeah. And you know, he even recommends when you're going on a date, like for a first date, especially, and you, you've recommended this and reminded me of this quite a few times is try to find a seat. If you're going out to a restaurant or a bar where you get to sit next to the person, you get to

Charles:
Definitely.

Dan:
sit next to her because it's a lot easier than to do some casual, some casual touching, whether it's just, you know, your arm brushing against hers or your hand brushing against hers on the table or a little tap on the wrist or a little tap on the shoulder. it's a lot easier to do that than reaching across the table. Uh,

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
and, um, yeah, that's, that sometimes, uh, can be, that looks awkward when

Charles:
It

Dan:
especially,

Charles:
looks

Dan:
you

Charles:
extremely.

Dan:
know, some of these big tables down here where you're reaching, you know, over the, over the, over your meals and everything else too. Uh, try not to get your hand caught in the guacamole while you're trying to touch her. Uh, yeah. So. Definitely try to find a spot, look on a corner of a bar or whatever, and be able to connect.

Charles:
Yes. If, uh, if you and your buddy are going out for breakfast or lunch together, by all means grab a booth. Booths are the best, but when you're on a date with a girl, booths are the enemy. Do not sit in a booth. If you're on a date, you

Dan:
comfortable

Charles:
want

Dan:
as it looks,

Charles:
a

Dan:
don't do it.

Charles:
yes, no, you, you want to sit either at the bar where you're next to each other or you want to sit, uh, you know, just get a regular table like a four person table and you guys can sit, um, on a each take a corner next to each other.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
But,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
uh, yeah, sitting at booths with, uh, with women that you're interested in, uh, is, is not the way I highly recommend against that. Um, okay, let's say, uh, yeah, he does go down a list. Um, let's see, I guess it's after the, uh, case study 19, which these case studies are a bit cringy in this chapter. I'm not a,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I'm not a big fan of these. Um, Let's see, there was one thing I wanted to say. Oh, two different types of touch. Brief touching on the arm, the shoulder and back is closely aligned with flirtatious, non needy playful behavior. On the other hand, holding a woman's hand hugging and embracing is more closely aligned with needy clingy behavior. If you initiate the second type of touch too frequently, um, the woman will come to think that you need her more than she needs you. And once this sets in it, Uh, attraction will fade. So yeah,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
there are definitely some kind of, yeah, I would say in the beginning of relationship, definitely anything that is too much of your body touching as much of her body as possible can, can certainly seem, um, like you're, you know, the baby monkey trying to hold onto mommy and you don't want

Dan:
Oh

Charles:
to, you don't want to send that message. Um, where yeah, more, more incidental contact is, is a bit more fun and light and playful than holding hands. I would say in most cases, let, uh, let the woman you're with be the one that initiates hand holding.

Dan:
Yeah, I like to at the end of the date, if things are going well and I want to move things forward, I'll offer my arm to walk her

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
back to

Charles:
yeah, me

Dan:
the

Charles:
too.

Dan:
car. And

Charles:
Yeah, that's a good one.

Dan:
you know, I've never had anybody not grab my arm. And then from there, it's very easy to slide that into a handhold or something else if she chooses or if you want to try it and test. You could do it that way if you're feeling like she's cleaning, you know, she's squeezing a little extra hard or maybe she, you know, She squeezes you checks you out a little bit whatever that might be. She's giving you some signs of additional interest like she wants to take it forward. So that's it's just a nice way of Moving things forward physically, I feel

Charles:
Yeah. And I mean, who's not going to take your arm when presented with a Dan? Your arms are massive. I mean, anybody's going to want to want to grab onto those obviously. Um, I have to stop myself multiple times a

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
day.

Dan:
stop.

Charles:
Um, okay. So, um, yeah. And, and one, one real big thing to look out for is, uh, one of the things you can do to really screw yourself up more than anything else is if you take some action, with touch and she's not ready or she's not interested and she kind of backs off. If you have some sort of an emotional outburst about that, you have just put the nails in your own coffin. I mean,

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
there's, you gotta, you gotta be not just pretend to laugh it off and be cool with it. You gotta be cool with it. I mean, if, if you're not okay with a woman who says, well, you know, hold on, you're going a little fast for me or something like that. you need to be thankful that she's given you that feedback. So you, you know, to back off and build more rapport, build more comfort, let the date progress. And then, you know, if, if things feel like they've changed, then go ahead and try escalating again. But, uh, yeah, you, if, if you try something and you thought that, Oh, I thought, you know, she's ready for me to give her a hug or put my arm around her or something like that. And she's not, be legitimately thankful that she's signaling to you in clear terms what she is and isn't ready for. And if you act hurt or upset about it or, you know, accuser of teasing you or something like that, then you might as well just get in the car and go home at that point because you're done.

Dan:
Yeah, I think it's important to remember that as long as she stays in the room with you and stays hanging out with you after you do that and she just pulls away, it means she's not ready. That's about her, not about you. So don't take it like you're doing something horribly wrong. She's

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
just not ready for whatever reason that is, and it's not your job to figure that out.

Charles:
Correct.

Dan:
Let her, let you know. But what your job is, is... let her have her space. And when there's another opportunity and you feel like, you know, things, there's a moment there, then, then try again, but don't, don't be attached to that outcome and just understand that it's just, it's going to take her time, whatever, whatever she needs to feel that comfort level with you. But the good news is as long as she's still hanging around you, that means she's, you're not doing anything wrong. If she were to get up and leave, Yeah,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
you did something wrong at that point, right?

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
At

Charles:
right.

Dan:
that

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
point, but it just means she's not ready right now. That's all.

Charles:
Yeah. And, and, you know, keep in mind that, uh, a woman rejecting your arm around her shoulder is not the same thing as a woman rejecting you. She's just, you know,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
it's just the, the action that you just tried. She's like, uh, I'm not into that right now. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
now I I've not yet had, I've not experienced that where I've tried to put my arm around someone and they've been like, uh, they've, they've gotten out from under it or something, but I would assume that if a, if a woman is not ready for that, And she kind of, you know, moves out of the way so that you can't put your arm around her. If she does then later want your arm around her, she will, I, most women that I know are pretty savvy. They under, they understand. She will take steps to make it clear to you. Okay, now I'm ready for your arm to be around me. You know, it wouldn't,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know,

Dan:
Should

Charles:
and

Dan:
make

Charles:
I would

Dan:
it easy.

Charles:
say most cases if, yeah, if you try to escalate something and a woman's not ready for that thing that you've tried to do, and then you back off and you continue on with your date, when she's ready for that thing that you attempted, she is happy to make clear, okay, now I'm ready for this when I wasn't ready for it before, because

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I mean, I think women do understand that we can get, you know, we can get a little bruised. We can get a little, take a little bit of an ego hit if we try something and she's not into it. Um, which, you know, I have, I have had that where I've tried to do some form of escalation that she wasn't ready for. And then, you know, she made that clear. I was cool with it. We continued on the date and then When she was ready for that again, I, there were no, there were no, you know, sleep slick signals. It was, it was very clear like, okay, I'm ready for, now I'm ready for you to kiss me or whatever it was.

Dan:
Yeah. And look at when that happens, look at the other things that you may have, you may have, or may have not tried to do before that. So did you try to hold her hand? Did you try to touch her on her shoulder or her hand or her wrist, or did you go right for like putting your arm

Charles:
Right,

Dan:
around her? Well,

Charles:
right,

Dan:
if you

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
did, then you skipped a couple of steps here, I feel,

Charles:
Yeah, exactly.

Dan:
or you, you didn't, you didn't really feel, test the situation or try to get an understanding of things. Because I feel that is again, that's a big, it's a big bold move getting you putting your arm around somebody. So you may have skipped some steps. So you take, take a look, go backwards and say,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
okay, and then maybe try some of those baby steps first and see how she responds to those before you go ahead and try and do the arm, the arm hug again.

Charles:
Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I would say that you can, uh, there, there are definitely things, there are signs. I mean, when you're walking next to a woman and you know, her hand brushes up against you or even her hip brushes up against you because you're walking that close together. I mean, there will be things that you can keep your eyes open for and, you know, and again, there's, you know, attempting to put your arm around someone and being denied is not the end of the world. It's not like you did something wrong. It's just, she, you know, somebody's not ready for that. then again, appreciate when people communicate what they do and do not walk from you. That's always a good thing. And so, you know, look at it like, okay, I, someone just gave me information that I need and, and be thankful for it. But yeah, never be hurt about it or upset about it or lash out about it because then you are just, you're just throwing

Dan:
Yeah, he

Charles:
whatever

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
the opposite of gas, whatever the opposite of gasoline on the fire is, that's what you're doing. You're throwing kitty litter on the fire.

Dan:
Yeah. And he does in the case, the case studies, he goes into details about a guy freaking out because he, you know, he was a little bit, he was denied or,

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
or the girl got uncomfortable with him and stuff. And there's some, yeah, it's, uh, it's laid out here in the, uh, in the chapter about that. So, uh, it's good. The reasons, good, good ideas of, uh, of what not to do. Um, as, as you just mentioned, so

Charles:
Yeah. And, and one of the things he mentions at the end, which, you know, is, is something that Dr. Glover talks about in his material as well, which is, look, man, when you, when you ask a girl out on a date, she knows that you're asking her out because you're attracted to her and you would like something romantic to happen. So if she says yes to you, then she's got to have some level of interest in that as well. And so it's going to be expected that if you guys are getting along and if you're having a good time, you're going to start at the very low level of initiating physical touch and then work it up to the point where one of you doesn't want to do it anymore, right? And so that is part of what's expected of most heterosexual men when they take a woman out on a date. You know, when it's, when you've made your intentions clear, where it's, you know, understood that you have a romantic interest and you're asking the woman out for that reason, then it's expected that if you're getting along and if you're having a good time, you're going to be physical with each other. Um, but you know, again, keep in mind, don't skip steps. Um, one of the things I always say, we've talked about before is when you're going to do it, um, when you're going to do anything, whether it's kissing or, or trying to. give her a hug, hold her hand, put your arm around her, whatever. The, the two things I say are do it slowly, but do it confidently, because if you do it slowly, then you're giving somebody ample time to say, well, I'm not into that. And you know, slow and confident definitely beats timid or asking for permission.

Dan:
And you also have to remember that healthy humans, both men and women enjoy being touched physically, right? If you, if again, obviously, you know, some people have had some traumatic experiences and some bad experiences and it might not be, or they might not be in the right spot mentally, those, and there are people out there, there's plenty of people out there like that, but a healthy human enjoys being touched and wants to be touched and. Obviously at their own pace. So that's where you need to be mindful and you need to read the room and test for interest and make sure that you guys are on the same page. But don't go into this. I think there was for a while growing up and I got a little bit of this from, I don't know, growing up from somewhere where women don't like sex or women don't want to be touched and that's not

Charles:
Oh

Dan:
the case

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
at all. right?

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
And,

Charles:
no,

Dan:
and,

Charles:
absolutely.

Dan:
or, or that

Charles:
That's.

Dan:
you're doing, or as a guy, you're doing something wrong if you want to have sex with a woman or you want to touch a woman, there's something wrong with you, you know? And, and that's, and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
where, you know, where I've heard that is, you know, some, you know, I guess some, you know, women's movements or something like that, where,

Charles:
Mmm.

Dan:
you know, from the, from the sixties or seventies, um, at least that's what Glover had mentioned in one of his, uh, in one of the books we were listening to. He said that, that came from there.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
But

Charles:
I'm gonna blame.

Dan:
I don't know where exactly that came from. But I definitely felt it growing up. Like I'm doing something

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
wrong if I'm thinking about sex. I'm a pervert, right?

Charles:
I'm going to blame our mothers for this. I'm going to say

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
that it's probably not just our mothers, but yeah, I think as a society, it's not just what our mothers tell us, but it's also this attitude of, as boys, I think we are trained either by our moms, by our dads, by society, whatever, to look at our mothers as completely asexual. And

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
since that's the woman. that's the closest to us, then we then transfer that attribute of asexuality onto every woman because the last thing you want to do is think about your mother as being sexual. And so, you know, once the biggest female influence in your life is determined to be completely asexual, then, you know, why not assume that's the case for every other woman that you meet? They're all, you know, they're all just not sexual creatures and they just... put up with sex because you know, it's part of the deal of being a human. They have to, but they're not really into it. I mean, I grew up with that for sure. 100%.

Dan:
Yeah. And I did too. What I'm realizing now is my mom taught me to be a gentleman all the time. Right. And so when you treat, so I did get a partial education when it came to how to interact with women. However, the education kind of ended in terms of minding my manners and being kind and being sweet and opening doors and eating with my... fork and knife in a certain way and all that

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
other stuff, but it never got into sex, right? It was never, or never how to attract or build some tension, any type of sexual tension with a woman. Mom didn't get

Charles:
right?

Dan:
into any of that, you know?

Charles:
No,

Dan:
Neither did

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
dad.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
So I didn't get that education. So I came at it also being, coming from it as just, all right, well. I can be the nice guy and be sweet and kind

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
and be a gentleman, but then what? At some point, both the man and the woman are going to want more than that.

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
And I just, I wasn't given that education. I had to learn that through experience.

Charles:
Yeah, and it sucks, man. It is not okay that the two biggest influences on young men when it comes to sex are our parents who, again, for whatever reason, most of them, I don't know what everybody's parents were like, but from what you and I have talked about and some of our other friends, it's like, yeah, our parents just don't talk about sex. They don't talk about sex with each other. They don't talk about sex. you know, that they had before they found each other. They don't, they just don't talk about sex at all. So as young men, all we get is our asexual parents not talking about sex and our hypersexual buddies who may have developed, you know, a year before we did

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
and

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
you know, started, you know, messing around with girls and stuff like that. And, and then they're the experts in our lives because our parents won't tell us Jack about it. And so

Dan:
Or you're

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
picking stuff up in the locker room in gym class from people who have,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you know, hypersexualized brothers or, you know, siblings

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
that...

Charles:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So there's yeah, for I, hopefully it's not like that now, but growing up it was certainly like that. I was like, you know, there's

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
my parents who won't say anything about sex at all under any circumstances. And then there's my friends who won't say anything except talk about sex that they, you know, may or may not actually have been having or experiencing. They're just kind of, you know, hearing things from older brothers and cousins and just making crap up and, uh,

Dan:
Or we're getting educated from Disney princess movies or rom-coms, right? That's the other scenarios that are being,

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
where

Charles:
pretty

Dan:
we're

Charles:
much.

Dan:
pulling information from that are completely unrealistic.

Charles:
Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's really no, there was no good information, you know, or, you know, piling on more sources for not good information. You know, I grew up really active in my church and there was certainly no, no opinions

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
on sex and relationships and dating and, you know, at anything useful coming, coming out of my youth group class. I mean, there were, you know, some of the kids had plenty of education that they were willing to share about stuff like that. But it wasn't, uh, it wasn't from any kind of authority or person with information. It was just, you know,

Dan:
based on psychology.

Charles:
yeah, exactly. It was, it was, it was a mess. There was no, there were no good sources of information for dating, relationships, sex, um, physicality. I mean, just not nothing. There was, there was, it

Dan:
I

Charles:
was

Dan:
mean,

Charles:
a desert of, of

Dan:
I

Charles:
information.

Dan:
think, I think, I think this explains why the divorce rate is so high and why there's so much why psychologists, psychologists and psychiatrists are so busy with dealing with relationships and therapy for us because most I think

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
most

Charles:
we're

Dan:
of

Charles:
all

Dan:
us

Charles:
g-

Dan:
fall into I think more of us fall into what you just described then.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
You know, have you

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
know,

Charles:
we're.

Dan:
The ones that know what they're doing, they're the sex therapist. They're the psychologists. They're the ones, you know, not

Charles:
Or

Dan:
the

Charles:
the

Dan:
average

Charles:
ones

Dan:
Joe.

Charles:
that are just, they're just out there living the relationships the right way and we, we don't hear about it. We don't know about it. They're just out there doing things the right way and we don't know.

Dan:
Yeah, right. I mean, if you if I mean how, how common is I mean, I, I my first job after college, I worked with a bunch of guys are about 10 years older than I was, and they were all married. And I think there was one out of 10 guys that actually loved his wife and talked about her

Charles:
Mm.

Dan:
and had a great relationship. Every other guy that I talked to, and I mean, you know, it's 101112 guys in our group. none of them had anything good to say about their marriages or

Charles:
I hate that.

Dan:
their wives. So not blaming the wives by any means exclusively, but it just soured me on them. Well, why did you get married then?

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
Why are you still married if all you're doing is complaining about it? I didn't understand that.

Charles:
Yeah. And is that, you know, I mean, that's the question. Were they, were they really that miserable or for some reason are men incentivized

Dan:
It could have been

Charles:
to

Dan:
like locker

Charles:
bitch and

Dan:
room

Charles:
moan about?

Dan:
talk.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah.

Charles:
But in,

Dan:
It could have

Charles:
in.

Dan:
been the way they were bonding with each other. That's fair, that could have been exaggerating. I'm sure at some

Charles:
But

Dan:
capacity

Charles:
that sucks

Dan:
they were.

Charles:
too. I mean, it sucks that

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
that's

Dan:
could

Charles:
incentivized

Dan:
you think of something

Charles:
as

Dan:
else

Charles:
well.

Dan:
to, right. There's plenty of other things, other hobbies and things you do together to bond

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
over,

Charles:
Like why,

Dan:
right.

Charles:
why do we, yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
why do we have, why have we built a culture for ourselves where, you know, two guys can't bond about, you know, man, you know, last night I was watching, I watched a really moving movie. It really affected me. It really got me emotional. It can't, can't have that conversation, but you can

Dan:
Mm-mm.

Charles:
have the conversation of, Oh, my wife is such a battle act. She never stops nagging me, blah, blah. Yeah, man, me too. I have the same thing. It's like, why. Why did we build ourselves a culture where that's the, that's the common ground we have to find with each other? It sucks.

Dan:
Yeah, well, I don't think that's the common ground with everybody. I think we just

Charles:
No,

Dan:
need to find

Charles:
I don't

Dan:
the

Charles:
either,

Dan:
people that, you know,

Charles:
but in this case, you're

Dan:
it's

Charles:
talking

Dan:
common.

Charles:
about 9

Dan:
It is.

Charles:
out of 10.

Dan:
It is. It was. Yeah. I mean, it was at least it was in

Charles:
That's,

Dan:
the company that I was working at. And it was

Charles:
and

Dan:
a

Charles:
I've

Dan:
there was

Charles:
been,

Dan:
a lot.

Charles:
I've been in those, I've been in those situations too, where it's like, everybody is, is bitching and moaning about, about their family life, you know, whether it's their kids, their spouse or whatever. And yeah, I mean, you and I've talked about it before where it's like, whenever you have somebody in your life that is complaining about something and not taking any action to fix it. It's like, man, I don't, I do not want to hear from you anymore. It's like,

Dan:
Mm-mm.

Charles:
okay. Sorry for your situation, now fix it or shut up. But, you know, yeah, you don't get to say that to people that you're in, I guess, personal or professional relationships. And not, you don't get to say that and maintain those relationships. Nobody wants to hear

Dan:
No.

Charles:
that.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
So you get to say it once, but then you're pretty much done.

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
Anyway, okay. So there we are on physical touch. It's important. It's the knowing when and how to apply it is going to be a big differentiator between men who are successful and happy in their dating relationships and men who are not.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
But you got to practice it. I mean, I really, if you're in a relationship already, then practice it with the girl that you're with. And if you're not, then just be thinking about as you go on dates and you're having fun. interacting with women, um, be, be very open to their, their indicators that they, they want more touch because they will let you know, in most cases. Um,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
and one thing I said about, you know, not asking for permission, keep in mind, that's, that's what I'm talking about. You know, putting your hand on her shoulder or, uh, you know, going to put your arm around her as, as physical intimacy escalates. then it does become more important to get actual verbal consent from women because you don't want to do anything. You don't want to assume anything is okay after a certain point without knowing for sure that it's okay because that's when bad things happen.

Dan:
Yeah. Um, I think it's definitely good to just have a conversation before. If you feel like things are getting to that point,

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
Glover talks about actually stopping and having a conversation and talking about, uh,

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
you know that, Hey, look, um, clothes are about to come off here. I feel let's have a

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
talk about, you know, you can talk about venereal disease. You can talk about pregnancies, unwanted pregnancies, things, how, how things, how you're going to handle those things. I think that A lot of people have said to him, he said that, well, that might kill some of the tension, the sexual tension, but it actually relieves, I think, a lot of worry and

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
fear in both people. And by allowing that to be addressed and it's not running through the back of your minds while things are progressing, you can actually relax and enjoy each other more when you're, you get to the same page. And I think that is something that I haven't always done. And

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
I like the idea of it and I am going to practice that moving forward.

Charles:
Yeah, I do too. I think, I think having that conversation and I would put that conversation right at the line where, um, you know, and Dr. Glover does talk about how in heterosexual relationships, it's the man's responsibility to take the lead. And, and I would say having that conversation is a big time leadership move. And where do you put it? I would say you put it basically when you are, when you feel yourself, and your date in this case, because it's not your girlfriend yet, probably. When you find yourselves getting to the point where you're moving away from making out and moving into foreplay, that's where that conversation should probably happen.

Dan:
Yeah. And you know, you're not going to, even if it, you kill it in that moment, if she really likes you, and if you really like her, it will happen again. Even if, if worst case scenario, let's say, you know, having a conversation, you guys get distracted and you get off topic and you're not feeling that vibe anymore. If it's meant to be, and you guys really have an authentic attraction for each other and you're not both like just drunk and hooking up with each other because it's convenient

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
at that time, then, then. Don't worry about it. Even if the moment dies, it'll happen again. But at least, you know, you've got that conversation done. And then once that's out there, you guys have some sort, you can relax a little bit and you know, you know, you're on the same page with everything and move forward from there. So it's

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
not

Charles:
but

Dan:
the

Charles:
like-

Dan:
end of the world, even if you do kill it, the moment.

Charles:
Right. But like, like anything, like any skill that can be practiced, I would say, if you become a guy who feels like that conversation is something that you need to do and you know, you find yourself dating women, the more, the more you practice interrupting things to have that conversation and the more comfortable you get bringing those topics up, the less and less the chance that it will disrupt things to the point where

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you're not going to still move forward. It'll get slimmer and slimmer that you're gonna have that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
kind of a negative outcome. But again,

Dan:
You know,

Charles:
you know,

Dan:
I feel...

Charles:
is it really a negative outcome? It's not

Dan:
And you're both being very vulnerable and you're being vulnerable first by bringing this up and stopping it and addressing

Charles:
Mm-hmm.

Dan:
it. And that

Charles:
Yes.

Dan:
is you are actually building intimacy. You are building a connection because you are trusting that person. You're being vulnerable with them and they're going to be vulnerable with you. So I feel it's only going to bring you closer together and make any more, any additional physical contact and intimacy a lot more, a lot more comfortable for both of you.

Charles:
Yeah, and I would say, so let's talk about, let's get into that conversation in just a little bit more detail and say what should be addressed. I would say, yeah, birth control needs to be addressed as far as

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
what you're both going to do to prevent an unwanted pregnancy from occurring, what you're going to do to protect yourselves from possible sexually transmitted infections. Now it could be, you know, both of you just got out of a long-term monogamous relationship and you're not as concerned about that. You should still obviously take steps to protect yourselves, but having that conversation, you can find out where you both are and determine what level of, of risk needs to be mitigated. Right. Um, I would

Dan:
Hmm?

Charles:
say if, uh, if there's anything you're into that, and most people who are into things that are outside of the mainstream, they kind of know that they're into things that are outside of the mainstream. And that

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
might be a good time to bring those up. Uh, if you're a man who has any health concerns that could, you know, have an effect on your ability to get and maintain an erection, that might be a good time to bring this up. So there's a lot of touchy stuff that can come up in this conversation, but the more you bring it up with honesty and confidence, the less chance that it's going to ruin the mood, I would say.

Dan:
Well said, great ideas.

Charles:
But it's, yeah, I would say that it is important to bring those things up. And again, when I say, you know, when, when you notice that, okay, we're not just, we're not just smooching and making out now we're, we're getting into the, the realm of floor foreplay. So if this continues going, then we're going to be sexual partners that once, once you make that realization, then it's time to say, Hey, hold on, babe. I think there's a couple of things we should talk about before we, we keep moving forward. And. You know, just want to make sure we're both on the same page when it comes to X, Y, Z, and then

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
just have the conversation and then keep it fun, keep it light, keep it playful. And you'll be able to, you'll be able to pick back up as soon as the conversation's over.

Dan:
like it.

Charles:
All right. All right, Dan, we will role play how that conversation goes specifically during our next episode. No,

Dan:
Sounds

Charles:
not

Dan:
great.

Charles:
really.

Dan:
Can't wait

Charles:
No,

Dan:
for that.

Charles:
no, we're not gonna do that. We are not gonna do that.

Dan:
Why are you

Charles:
All

Dan:
such

Charles:
right,

Dan:
a tease,

Charles:
any?

Dan:
Charles? Why are you such a tease? Stop.

Charles:
Anything, anything else you want to talk about with, with physical touch?

Dan:
No, I think I'm all set.

Charles:
Yeah. The two things again, I'll say slow, but confident. That's, that's what it, that's what you should remember when it comes to, uh, to initiate an escalating physical touch, do it slowly, but do it confidently. And, uh, yeah, if you need, uh, if you need any practice or guidelines, email Dan and he'll help you out.

Dan:
Practice what?

Charles:
What? Did I say that? All right.

Dan:
All right, I think it's getting late.

Charles:
It is, it's almost 11 o'clock Dan. Let's, uh,

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
let's call it.

Dan:
let's call it. All right.

Charles:
I will talk to

Dan:
I

Charles:
you

Dan:
think

Charles:
later.

Dan:
it was pretty

Charles:
All

Dan:
good, so we'll talk. All right,

Charles:
right.

Dan:
take care.

Charles:
Bye.