Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

You Chase, She Runs

September 11, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles Calabritto & Dan Littman Episode 96
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
You Chase, She Runs
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we discuss how the relentless pursuit of your dream girl will probably make her head for the hills. When you chase too hard, she feels like she has to run away from you, so knock it off!

Check out the "How We Feel" app,  and follow Charles's updates with this friend code: 348292

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Dan:
Good almost afternoon, Charles, how are you? Ha ha ha.

Charles:
Hey Dan. Oh boy. It has been, it has been a day already. Yeah. We,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
uh, we started talking almost two hours ago and, uh, in the meantime, my, my new refrigerator sort of got delivered. They, uh, I had to order a new refrigerator for my RV because the current one went on the fritz and ordered a new one from home Depot and they delivered the wrong size and, uh, it's too small. And useless to me. And now I have to return it and try to find somewhere else to get my refrigerator. Instead of just waiting for home Depot, just take four days to make another attempt at delivering the right one.

Dan:
Yeah, that's got to be tough because I don't think a lot of hardware stores store RV specific refrigerators

Charles:
Oh no, it's well,

Dan:
in the,

Charles:
I,

Dan:
and you know,

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
it's not like you can

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
like

Charles:
I'm

Dan:
roll

Charles:
not.

Dan:
up to a Lowe's or whatever and go, oh, I'll just pull this one, right?

Charles:
Well, kind of. I'm not replacing it with an RV specific one. I'm using

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
my RV specific one runs off of uh battery power or 110 uh AC or liquid propane and I am replacing it with a refrigerator that just plugs into the wall like a dorm room or an office-sized

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
refrigerator because

Dan:
okay.

Charles:
the three-way refrigerator that I currently have would be $1,500 to replace, which is more than I've spent on a full-size residential refrigerator in my last house.

Dan:
Damn.

Charles:
And I have no interest in spending that amount of money. So I've been looking at compact refrigerators, which, uh, are available, but I've already got a certain sized hole in my, uh, kitchen cabinetry that it needs to fit in pretty close, you know, not

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
perfectly, but pretty close. And, uh, the one that they sent me is too small to fit in that hole. The one that I ordered is pretty close. And the

Dan:
Hehehehe

Charles:
one that I ordered is not one that I can find locally anywhere. So now I have to go back to the drawing board to see, okay, is there some other model that might work for me? Because

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
the one that was supposed to get here today is now still four days away.

Dan:
Oof.

Charles:
If I place the order right now, I would not see it until...

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
like Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
So

Dan:
You know what?

Charles:
I am

Dan:
I mean,

Charles:
frustrated.

Dan:
I've, I've got a, I've got, I mean, you've seen the fridge in my house. Is that even close to what? That the one that's holding up the, uh, the coffee machine.

Charles:
I have no idea what,

Dan:
If you

Charles:
uh...

Dan:
send me the dimensions, I'll measure it. I'm just wanting, maybe I could give you a loan or something.

Charles:
Maybe. I would, uh... I would almost... I'm almost desperate enough to consider that. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Dan:
I mean, yeah, I mean, look, worst case scenario, you just plug it in and you don't put it in the hole and you've got a fridge though for however long you need it. I only have some sodas and stuff in there. I mean, you know, if you feel like

Charles:
Dan,

Dan:
making the trip.

Charles:
if it doesn't go in the hole, then I have to decide whether to not use my bathroom or not use my bed.

Dan:
Oh geez.

Charles:
Because if it goes in the middle of my floor, then I'm

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
effectively cutting off half of the camper.

Dan:
Well, you can't, you could probably walk around it somehow, right? It's not that big.

Charles:
I have approximately

Dan:
And

Charles:
22

Dan:
you could use an extension

Charles:
inches

Dan:
cord.

Charles:
of floor

Dan:
We

Charles:
space

Dan:
could eat.

Charles:
to walk around.

Dan:
OK, I mean, I mean, you know, I think we could get like an extension cord or something like that. I don't know. Whatever. But just a

Charles:
And

Dan:
thought if

Charles:
it

Dan:
you needed

Charles:
extends

Dan:
to.

Charles:
extension it to where I have. I am in a 19 foot trailer. There's no place to put a compact refrigerator except for the hole

Dan:
Yeah,

Charles:
in the

Dan:
I

Charles:
wall.

Dan:
guess.

Charles:
The refrigerators

Dan:
OK.

Charles:
go in.

Dan:
OK, all right. OK, fair enough. Yeah, I keep

Charles:
I can

Dan:
forgetting

Charles:
barely push

Dan:
what

Charles:
this

Dan:
it's like

Charles:
office

Dan:
in there.

Charles:
chair under my desk.

Dan:
OK, all right.

Charles:
Everything has to have a very specific

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
place or it's just on

Dan:
Got

Charles:
the bed.

Dan:
it. All right, yeah, well, this is, I guess, this speaks to the RV coach experience that you've got to basically. Yeah, you, it's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
not like, uh, it's not like you're living in a huge trailer. So it doesn't matter what you're trying to move from and turn or move into, uh, Charles can make it work and he can, he can help you figure it out for sure. Um, so once, uh, once his RV coaching business is up and running, um, yeah, he's definitely somebody to talk to. So, uh,

Charles:
Yeah, I wish... I think I may remove the current refrigerator today anyway, which is what I was planning on doing, because it's doing me no good right now. And drive it to... there's a landfill not too far away where one can get rid of appliances.

Dan:
Hmm?

Charles:
But God, what a hassle. This is definitely... I mean, again, the same kind of thing happens to people who live at home, so it's not...

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
It's not like this is a unique experience to me. People have refrigerators that break all the time and they have to replace them. It's just a couple of extra little constraints that are making this. A bit difficult and my God, I've been eating like a crazy person the last five days. I'm so

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
reliant on dairy with my, you know, with the kind of eating I've been doing and not being able to have butter and cream and cheese and

Dan:
Oh.

Charles:
milk and eggs kept cold. Yeah, I've just been eating on a gas stations and putting on a bunch of water weight like crazy. And all I kept thinking was, well, on Friday, my new refrigerator will be delivered. I'll go do some grocery shopping. I'll stock it up with, you know, I'll wait for it to cool down. Then I'll fill it up with all the fruits and dairy and meat that I need and everything will be great. And now, bam, I'm four days away from that again. So it's a bit frustrating, but anyway, I'm trying to focus on all the fun stuff I've got coming up. You and I are

Dan:
Oh yeah,

Charles:
doing

Dan:
let's

Charles:
our first

Dan:
talk about

Charles:
magical

Dan:
that.

Charles:
dining tonight. We're gonna go to Kabuki

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Sushi and eat there for dinner. Tomorrow's the white party from Guys With Ties that you will not be going to,

Dan:
Correct.

Charles:
but I'll try to have fun anyway. And...

Dan:
I'm sure you'll figure it out with, yes, your fancy jacket.

Charles:
I have a whole ensemble that I am looking forward to debuting tomorrow night.

Dan:
Awesome.

Charles:
And what else is going on? Um, moving days is fast approaching. Um, about eight days from now I will be, um, be loading up the camper and moving closer to your neck of the woods. Um, which,

Dan:
Yeah, here

Charles:
which

Dan:
in Sanford.

Charles:
should make

Dan:
Nice.

Charles:
things con yeah, should make things convenient for, uh, for recording our episodes in studio, which I could not do today because I was tied to my home waiting for my refrigerator to be delivered, so that's why I'm recording remotely today, which, god, now I wish I wasn't even here to accept delivery. That would have been what made things easier. Although I would have known it was the wrong thing, so no, it wouldn't have. Anyway. Alright, I'll try not to be so glum while we

Dan:
No, that's

Charles:
talk

Dan:
fine.

Charles:
about the

Dan:
Get

Charles:
book.

Dan:
it out, man. This is, this is part of,

Charles:
What's

Dan:
part

Charles:
new with...

Dan:
of, uh, it's part of being mindful, right? Is being able to not hold it in, get it out, express it so that we can, we can deal with it and handle our other business in a, in a healthy way, right? Versus letting it fester and letting it mess with our relationships and everything else. So, um,

Charles:
Yes,

Dan:
yeah,

Charles:
I am

Dan:
this

Charles:
going

Dan:
is,

Charles:
to use

Dan:
you can't

Charles:
my,

Dan:
be positive.

Charles:
um.

Dan:
This is, this is real, right? This isn't, we're not, we're not pretending to be, you know, perfect and happy every. every time we record this thing, right? So I think this is good. This is good.

Charles:
I am using my app that I use to label my feelings. And I am currently feeling frustrated. And I've been wanting to talk about this app. So I use this app called How We Feel. And

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
in this app, you're able to pick the feelings that you're experiencing. I have mindset to remind me twice a day. to go in and label what I'm currently feeling. And then you can also share that with friends. And right now I only have one friend that I share my feelings with, and that's Renata. But I am open to opening this up with our listeners if they had any interest in signing

Dan:
That's

Charles:
up.

Dan:
great.

Charles:
And I could share my code with them. So I will try to remember to put that in the show notes for this episode.

Dan:
Well, share

Charles:
And so

Dan:
it with

Charles:
yeah,

Dan:
me too,

Charles:
it's a free

Dan:
so. Yeah.

Charles:
app. Okay. I will do that. My, uh, Oh, well, yeah. Okay. So again, the app is called how we feel and my code, if you want to write this down, uh, but I'll also put it in the notes. My code is three, four, eight, two nine, two. So if you download and install the how we feel app and you go to add a friend's code and you type in three, four, eight, two nine, two, then. You will get a record of how I'm feeling when I update my app. If I choose to share it with you, which I will, I don't care. I'll share it with anybody. Uh, again, right now I just share it with Renata and, um, I suspect she doesn't actually look at it anymore because she hasn't mentioned it in quite a few weeks, but I

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
share it with her anyway.

Dan:
Okay. Yeah. Sometimes that's, that's part of the process as part of the therapy.

Charles:
being ignored by your therapist. Is that part of the process?

Dan:
Uh, yes, that's, that's exactly right. Um, no, just getting

Charles:
looks

Dan:
it out

Charles:
like

Dan:
of your

Charles:
Renata

Dan:
head.

Charles:
I put,

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
Renata I put suicidal, you know, twice a day for the last three weeks and you haven't mentioned it. I'm going to go ahead and put it in the chat.

Dan:
Yeah, do a little test and see if she's actually

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
still paying attention. Right?

Charles:
exactly.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
You failed.

Charles:
Uh, yeah. So anyway, um, yeah. So yeah, today's a mixed bag. I definitely frustrated

Dan:
Damn.

Charles:
over the refrigerator situation. Uh, but I am looking forward to dinner tonight. Um, you want to do anything after dinner? You want to go out?

Dan:
We'll see what time it is. We'll play it by ear, maybe.

Charles:
Alright, we're eating dinner at 630. That's

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
uh, which I can

Dan:
Yeah. I mean,

Charles:
tweak

Dan:
I go out

Charles:
that

Dan:
for a

Charles:
time

Dan:
couple hours.

Charles:
if you want to.

Dan:
Sure.

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Alright. I do have my favorite suit is at the cleaners and it is ready to pick up today So if you want to dress up tonight, we can do that if you don't I can just I can just throw on a button down some jeans

Dan:
Hmm.

Charles:
What you feeling

Dan:
Let me

Charles:
like?

Dan:
think about that. Yeah. I'm,

Charles:
Um...

Dan:
I'm a little bit more leaning towards button down in jeans, but I haven't, I haven't wore a suit in a while either. So.

Charles:
Yeah, I don't know how fancy

Dan:
I might be convinced.

Charles:
Kabuki sushi is, but you know, we do have, uh, we do have magical dining, you know, quite a few of them coming up. Next, next week, the pinery is on our agenda and, uh, I don't know

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
for sure if you're, you're in for that one, but that one Kurt will be joining us for, cause I owe him dinner. So it'll either be me and me and Kurt or me, you and Kurt, depending on your, uh,

Dan:
All

Charles:
if you're

Dan:
right.

Charles:
still open for that one.

Dan:
Yeah, possibly. I'll need to check my calendar. Yeah.

Charles:
Okay, sounds good. Uh, all right, let's, uh, let's get into the stuff here. We're 12 minutes in of me complaining about my refrigerator. So, um, I'm sure the, I'm sure

Dan:
So

Charles:
the listeners

Dan:
we got another

Charles:
would

Dan:
three

Charles:
like at

Dan:
minutes

Charles:
least

Dan:
we can

Charles:
12

Dan:
go

Charles:
more

Dan:
if

Charles:
minutes.

Dan:
we wanted

Charles:
I

Dan:
to.

Charles:
was going

Dan:
Hehehehe.

Charles:
to say, I'm sure the listeners would love at least 12 more minutes of me complaining, but I will rob them of that. And, uh, yeah, so.

Dan:
so

Charles:
Boy,

Dan:
generous.

Charles:
it's a good, I just. I just took, I bought this new stuff, this Ali Goodbye Stress Multi-Benefit Blend. Um,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
it's a combination of ashwagandha, gaba, L-theanine and lemon balm extract. And I took some of this before

Dan:
and

Charles:
I got on with you this morning and imagine how much worse I would have been if I didn't.

Dan:
Oh geez. Yeah, it's

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
like you took nothing. You sure things, uh, that stuff works?

Charles:
It might be a placebo, I don't know. But it's got a mix of stuff that I've read is good for

Dan:
Yeah, those

Charles:
folks

Dan:
do sound

Charles:
that

Dan:
good.

Charles:
do experience a little bit of social anxiety and don't necessarily always love being in crowded places and things like that. And

Dan:
Mm.

Charles:
so

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
I decided to try it to, I might take some tonight and possibly for our party tomorrow night, my party tomorrow night that you won't be going to. I wanted to have it ready for tonight and tomorrow night. But I want to take some this morning to make sure it didn't make me nauseous or anything like that. And, you know, I can't say that it's doing anything, but it's not making me nauseous, so I guess mission accomplished.

Dan:
Oh hey, there you go, there's a win.

Charles:
So I'll try some more tonight and see how I feel. Um, okay. We were almost done section three or part three or unit three, whatever he calls it of atomic attraction. So that's good. Um, I feel like we've been talking about this book forever because there's just so many things that we, we get. It just sets us off on these rabbit holes that I enjoy talking about with you. And, uh, these very short chapters, we, we don't get through a lot of them. All right. So. This one is called get her to chase you. And it's, uh, it talks about the, um, the necessary ratio of how much men should be pursued by women and women should be pursued by men in heterosexual relationships. I feel like he doesn't tell the whole story as he, I mean that's a fairly common refrain for me with his book where I feel like he mentions some important things to know but then there's some other things that he should mention that he doesn't. And It can be a little bit of a disservice to the reader and I'll share one of those with you right now. I have been in relationships where I was doing all of the chasing or the pursuing of a lady. And I've been in relationships where the lady was doing all of the chasing or pursuing of me. And neither of them were happy, healthy situations. And so while he does mention the 80 20 rule that the woman should chase the man 80% of the time, and the man should only be initiating contact 20% of the time, I feel like he should say if she's chasing you all the time, you're not going to like that either. And neither is she.

Dan:
Yeah, yeah. And what I want to do, Charles, to add an idea here is I think maybe when we start introducing each of these chapters, we could do, we could also read the quote that he's got because it's kind of a good summary

Charles:
Oh yeah,

Dan:
of

Charles:
that's

Dan:
some

Charles:
a good

Dan:
of

Charles:
idea.

Dan:
these chapters. So, so yeah, so get her to chase you. And the quote from E.W. Howe is, if a woman doesn't chase a man a little, she doesn't love him. And so I feel like that's kind of and and. You know, to really think about it when. in anything in life, when things are just handed to us, the value for us goes down, right? Something that is free

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
or something that is just given to us versus something we need to work for or something we've earned, it's a little bit more near and dear to our hearts and there's the value, it just naturally, mentally, that the value is higher for us. And so, yeah, I

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
think, right, an extreme in either direction one person is doing the majority of the work or the chasing, it's not suited for a long-term success, I agree with you.

Charles:
Yeah, and I don't even know if the 80-20 rule applies to this as conveniently as

Dan:
Mm-hmm,

Charles:
he thinks it does.

Dan:
right. Yeah. Yeah

Charles:
You know, I feel like that's pretty off balance. I feel like, you know, it's okay to try to steer things in the direction where the feminine is chasing the masculine a little bit more than the masculine is chasing the feminine, but 80 20 seems pretty extreme. You know, I was reminded when you were just talking about how we don't value things that are handed to us, there was a comedian that, uh, I used to listen to and still do occasionally who did a lot of tours, uh, on the college scene back in the nineties and he would frequently get the contacts at the colleges or the universities, like a lot of big state schools to say stuff to him like, man, we're going to have such a great crowd. The, uh, you know, the student union had such a, you know, a surplus in their budget. that we're able to pay your whole fee and we don't even have to charge the students to come to the show. They can all come to the show for free. And his thing would always be no charge of students to come. I don't care if you have to charge them a dollar. I don't care if you have to charge them $5 charge them something. Otherwise they're going to be getting up and leaving in the middle of the show. They're going to be talking. They're going to be showing up late. It's like, you got to charge them something. So they think they're coming to something that's worth coming to. If you make it completely free,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
they're not going to be interested. And so that was his rule that he adopted. He was like, I won't do free shows. You got to charge them at least a little something to get them to come through the door

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
or, or I'm not going to

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
perform.

Dan:
They're not going to, it's, it comes down to what you value and what you, what you value, you respect.

Charles:
Yeah. And I mean, what kind of, yeah, what kind of guy has the will or the time to chase a woman a hundred percent where she has to do nothing, you know, she has to put in no effort to show up all, all she has to do is wait for him to call and she knows he's going to call and yeah, it's there's like, where's the attraction there, where does it feel like you've got something that is worth, you know, holding onto it doesn't.

Dan:
Right.

Charles:
So,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
um, Yeah, and I mentioned a few weeks ago that... you're stealing something from a woman when you don't let her put some effort and, and some emotion into, you know, trying to reach out to you and anxiously awaiting your call. I mean, that's, that's fun. We, we enjoy that from women, you know, on, on some level, obviously when we don't get what we perceive to be enough, it can trigger some anxiety. Um, but it's also the anticipation of, Ooh, I wonder if she's going to text me today. I wonder if she's going to call me today. That's that is part of the fun for us. And it's part of the fun for them. And so if you're, you know, the puppy dog that will never leave her alone, you're, you're stealing that fun from her.

Dan:
Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. And he talks about a little bit how men typically try to rush things in terms of at the beginning of the relationship, when you start, you know, first connect to a woman and connect with a woman and you, you're establishing, you know, you're, you know, you start dating a little bit and a lot of times guys will rush the, the initial connection. trying to get answers to relieve anxiety in terms of where do they stand with the woman, try to push her

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
into a commitment really quickly. And what I kind of realized is, you know, just like good sex, you don't rush into it, right? You take your time, you're slow, you're methodical, you let things develop. You need to have that tension there. men need to get more comfortable feeling uncomfortable, needing to basically have that tension and be able to keep that going, because that's where excitement is. And I feel a lot of times, you know, when you see these people who have been married for many years or they're together for many years, and they just look miserable, like sitting at the table. I see this all the time. you know, they're sitting across from each other at a dinner table, you know, some of these older couples and they just look miserable. You know, they've been married for many years and, you know, or they're looking at their phones the whole time and there's no, it's like

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
a couple of friends hanging out or a couple of roommates hanging out. And I never want that. And one of the ways to not do that is to have some sort of tension to have when both people are just completely relaxed and completely comfortable. That's not, there's nothing to feel there. There's no fun. It's so,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
So don't rush into it. Don't try to, you know, so the, the key here that he talks about here is, is I feel is just like with sex, you just, you don't rush into having sex with somebody. You do things slowly. Same thing with the relationship. You do things slowly and let that tension build. And, and, you know, you don't need to get all those answers right away. Have enough other things in your life going on

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
so that you don't need to get that answer. there's your mind and your body are going to be so preoccupied with the other things that you have to do. You're not going to have much time to worry about what's going on here. And, and you know, she could be my girlfriend or is she going to commit to me or what is that? What else is she doing? You, you know, build that cake of a life so that you're too busy to, to worry about those things.

Charles:
Yeah. And that's, that's the thing you need to have something or multiple some things where you can say, I mean, number one, you need to, you need to be able to notice and acknowledge. Okay. I, I feel myself getting a little preoccupied with thoughts of this woman that I recently met or I've been on a date with, or I asked out and I'm waiting to hear back from her. So instead of just You know, getting focused on my anxiety of waiting to hear back from her. I should probably spend some time focusing on my career that I love or this hobby that I enjoy or my good friends that I enjoy hanging out with, or, you know, my goals in the gym or, you know, you gotta have other stuff that you are so into that it can be a distraction from the thing that's making you anxious. And because You know, by definition, things that are making you anxious, pointing more anxiety at them is not going to solve the problem. It's not going to make her call you faster. It's not going to make anything. It's not going to make anything good happen. The only thing that, you know, makes something good happen is directing your attention to other worthy things and then letting situations unfold on their own.

Dan:
Yeah. And you know, by doing these other things, not only are you enriching your own life, figuring out and exploring and getting the experience and the, you know, the excitement from doing things that you want to do, you now have more things to connect with. the person that you're dating or the people that you're dating, because you've got, you're doing things and you have now more experiences to talk about, more experiences to share, maybe more different things to, to invite them to join you with versus sitting around and just feeling the anxiety and wondering, Hey, where do I stand with this person? You're at that point, then you've got, you've got less to, to offer to somebody else down the road. And you've got less experiences to share. And same concept where a lot of times people like, oh, I'm looking for my better half, or I'm looking for

Charles:
Hmm.

Dan:
you complete me in these types of situations where it just, I feel like it's the mindset of I am losing my individual identity and she's losing her identity and we're forming one identity. And to me, that's terrifying. It's like, oh my God, it's so boring. Like if you're spending all the time with that one person, You've got no nothing to share. You've got nothing to talk about. You you're doing the same things. You're the same person. Now, yeah, doing that a little bit is fine. But but all the time, to me, that's. Why, you know, you want

Charles:
Well,

Dan:
to

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
you want it, you want, you know.

Charles:
yeah, it's, it's

Dan:
Because

Charles:
also

Dan:
it's comfortable,

Charles:
a way to talk.

Dan:
right?

Charles:
You're

Dan:
And it's easy. Yeah,

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
sorry.

Charles:
it

Dan:
Good.

Charles:
is yes, it's yes and no. I mean, it's, it's a way to really talk yourself into the stakes for any particular relationship being so high. I mean, if,

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
if you're walking around with a mindset that, you know, you are an incomplete entity until you meet the right girl or the right guy or whatever. Then every time you meet a new person that you're slightly interested in. You're thinking, Oh boy, this better be the person that's going to, you know, provide me with the thing that I'm missing out when I'm on my own.

Dan:
That's

Charles:
And

Dan:
a high bar to set

Charles:
yes.

Dan:
too. Yeah, that's a really high

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
standard. Absolutely.

Charles:
It's, it's a high bar to set. And it's like, you know, you're accepting this, this presupposition that you by yourself is not enough. And so you're, you're out there looking for, okay, you know,

Dan:
Mm-hmm

Charles:
um, I am this handicapped being right now because I'm missing something that can make me what I'm supposed to be. And without this person that I've yet to meet, you know, I don't have it. So it's like, yeah, every interaction you go with, you go into that could have any kind of romantic undertone, you're like, Oh, boy, I really, I really hope this is the one that can make me complete.

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
I mean, geez,

Dan:
And

Charles:
what a what a bunch of

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
expectation and pressure to put on yourself and the stranger. who has no idea that this is going on in your head.

Dan:
Yeah, you're coming from a place of lack. You're saying, hey, look, I need something from you, right? So be with me, but I need to take something from you because I'm missing something versus, hey, I'm gonna offer you something. I'm inviting you to join me in this wonderful life that I've got. I'm providing value versus I'm asking for value. And I mean, if you've done any type of life online in terms of marketing and things, when a company... wants like your email address, you're not just gonna give it to them for nothing. They give you something first. All the successful marketing campaigns,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
they offer you some sort of value where that comes in for information, a free sample, whatever that is, before they ask for something back from you. And it comes down to just human nature. It's, you know, you wanna be with something, you wanna interact with something that's going to provide you value, otherwise, why would you do it? And so it doesn't make any sense to do that in terms of relationship either.

Charles:
Yeah. And so, um, I mean, one of the, one of the other things that, um, you could have to distract you from the anxiety that would lead you to, uh, chase a woman too hard in the early stages of the relationship is other women. Okay. When, when you are just getting to know someone and you've only been on a couple of dates with them, you know, people can disagree with this and, and everybody's welcome to their own opinion. But. when you're very early, I see dating as a funnel system, just like sales, where

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
the top of the funnel should be wide and the bottom of the funnel should be narrow. And if you are just to the point where you've asked a girl out or you've been on one date with her, she should not be the only romantic interest in your life, in my opinion, because if she is, you are going to hyperfixate on her and sort of automatically look at her as Okay. She's my only prospect. She's my, she's the only solid lead I have on a romantic future. She is the only potential partner I have for sex or for starting a family. And all of this translates into an air of desperation and scarcity that you will absolutely carry with you. And so, you know, again, this, this is not the same as I'm not saying You know, you should be polyamorous. You need to be, you know, have multiple girlfriends or you should have multiple wives or anything like that. I'm just saying if there is a girl who's on your radar, you have some interest in her, you'd like to date her, maybe you've gone out once that in and of itself is not a reason to not have any other interactions with women that could turn out to be romantic. In fact, I would say it's a good reason to have those interactions so that, you know, you are a person with options who is. spending the time with the people you want to spend the time with because you want to spend your time with them, not because this is the only woman in my life, so I have to spend all my time with her. That's just how it works.

Dan:
Right, yeah. I mean, it's fairly straightforward. I mean, if you're coming from that air of desperation and you are thinking, if this is my only option, you're gonna start making excuses. You're going to not objectively evaluate things that could be red flags with that person because you are coming from a spot of desperation and the hormones that are surging through our bodies absolutely affect our decision-making abilities. our processes. So it's much better for you and for that woman and for your future relationship if you aren't in a position of desperation. So there are a number of different ways to get that, to be in that position and to be a little bit more objective. And one of them is to date multiple people at the same time. And I think it's, we were listening to another which was interesting is if you think about the perspective is a lot of women have, they might only date one guy at a time, but they typically have a much larger funnel, if you will, a selection of guys

Charles:
Hmm.

Dan:
who are very quick and very quick to go on dates with them and take them out. And that's obvious by looking at any of the, the dating apps, how many, how many, the, experience of a typical woman versus a typical guy in terms of how many people they have to choose from. It's, it's, you know, 10, 20, 30, hundreds of times different in terms of the volume of, of selection that they have versus a guy. So they always have a, a steady pool of, of men, or most of them have a steady pool of men to pull from whenever they want to. And, and that removes their desperation. I think it also helps them move a little bit slower and become a little bit more cautious and because they know they've got a lot of options. They know they're not operating, at least at the beginning of the relationship, from a spot of desperation. So they can be a little bit more objective. They can take their time and really feel guys out. They can test for the characteristics and traits in men that they're looking for. And men don't typically have that type of... situation. So what we can do is as long as we're, I believe, as long as we're honest and communicating the truth and we're not doing something that we're not saying that, you know, that we're saying we're not doing, you know, date multiple women

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
and, and on a casual basis in order to stay objective and properly evaluate the relationships and people's characteristics and their true nature and see how they operate in different situations. And that kind of levels things out in terms of, I don't want to say like a playing field, but it helps both people come from a position of mentally being able to make the best decisions for themselves, for the partner, and for their future relationship.

Charles:
Right, and like you said, being honest is a big part of that. Where

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
if you're doing this in a way where you're not honest about seeing other girls, if you're having sex with other girls, you should be disclosing this to all the parties concerned and be doing it above board, not hiding it from people. Because again, there's nothing that really displays weakness of will and weakness of character like lying. You know, that's basically saying I can't accept you knowing reality as reality really is, so I have to hide it from you because I'm not strong enough to handle you knowing the truth that is absolutely not acceptable and we're not advocating for that, but yeah, I, and again, you can, you can date multiple women without going to bed with them. I mean, you can, you

Dan:
Correct.

Charles:
can have

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
women that are your, your Platonic friends that you hang out with, you can have women that are sort of romantic, but you're just not sleeping with them. There's a lot of options here. And as long as you're being honest with everybody, there's, there's not a problem with, with any of them. Um, I will say that, you know, another, another thing that women have. Often that men do not is, uh, women will have. Quote unquote platonic friends who are orbiters that are hanging around them, making them feel desired and attractive. Uh, that they just don't have any romantic or sexual interest in, but these guys hang out all the time and are available to hang out with them and to socialize with them. And they always have these guys, most women I've known that are attractive, and I pretty much only hang out with women that are attractive, at least on some level, they will have male friends that are happy to hang out with them, spend time with them, go out. to dinner with them and things like that. And, you know, some women kid themselves about the nature of that relationship and some women recognize exactly what it is. You know, the joke that I saw in some movie or TV show was, you know, oh, I'm sure that, you know, your friend Steve has a big fat crush on you, I'm sure he'd love to date you. Oh no, Steve and I aren't like that, we're just platonic buddies, like. Okay, text him right now that you want to have sex. Let's see what he says.

Dan:
So this

Charles:
Let's,

Dan:
is interesting.

Charles:
let's, let's see. Let's see how he responds.

Dan:
So yeah, but I don't blame women for doing that. Why wouldn't you? It is, now, as long as you're clear with them and the conversation has been established where, no, I just think of you as a friend, right? As long as that's been, same thing here applies to women, I feel with these orbiters is I have no problem with women having these orbiters and these friends, as long as they've been clear with these guys and said, hey, listen, you know what, I look at you as a brother, I look at you as a friend, I'm not interested in you in a sexual way, and I'm totally cool having dinner together and communicating and things like that, right? I think as long as it's been communicated, I think that's fine because why wouldn't you want to have people who make you feel good about yourself in your life? And again, this is where it can be a little complicated because if your actions are... are acting a little bit different than what you're communicating verbally, things can get a little bit messy for sure. But that to me is kind of like they're kind of doing what we were just talking about where they're dating other multiple people at the same time. They just might not be sexual with them, but they

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
are dating them. And because they have these friends that they're seeing, orbiters or whoever that is, they've got enough other things in their life to... to keep them busy, keep them interested, keep them interesting by having these different experiences to be able to share with, you know, whoever they end up getting romantic with, but also allows them to then really kind of take their time as they're getting to know new guys that they might be interested in a romantic setting, right, and be able to go slowly with them and really evaluate the guy and see how he acts in different situations. So I feel like it's just not called dating, It kinda is, right?

Charles:
Right. Yeah. And I, I would say, you know, once you get to the point where you're in a committed monogamous relationship with someone, uh, I don't want you and your orbiters hanging out anymore after, after you and I are committed. I, I don't want people in your life that are just hoping and praying that our relationship fails so that they can get another shot because

Dan:
And as

Charles:
that

Dan:
long

Charles:
will.

Dan:
as you communicate that Charles, right? I mean, you've got every right to get exactly with the kind of relationship that you want as long as that's communicated. And it's not like a

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
covert contract with where, oh, I stopped talking to all the other women, single women in my life. You should just do the same kind of thing, right? We want to make sure that we get that out and open on the table. And,

Charles:
Absolutely.

Dan:
you know, the other piece here is we need to, the same thing with having that. sometimes very difficult, uncomfortable conversation with somebody when they say, Hey, are you seeing other people? And you need to be honest with you, with them about that. If, if they, they're, if they've got a problem with it and they're going to break up with you or they're not going to see you anymore, then, then that's okay. You need to be okay with that. And they just

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
might not be the type of person that you want to continue with because they're on a different time scale, right? That's another piece of evaluation that that humans need to do with each other is, hey, are we on the same page with these things? And we have to be willing to say, okay, well, if we're not, then we're going to let it go, but we'll both be okay, right? It's not the end of our lives. We're not going to be extradited. We're not going to be kicked out of the tribe and potentially be killed by

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
a neighboring, a warring tribe or starved to death, right? Even though that's what our primitive brain makes us feel at times.

Charles:
Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely hard to have those conversations where you know, you're going to, or you think you're going to be disappointing someone and you may disappoint them enough that they don't want to be with you anymore. But you know, you got to weigh that against disappointing yourself and saying yes to a relationship, you're not ready to say yes to, and you know, what's the, what's the long-term, uh, forecast for how that works out. That's not good either. So yeah, that's, that's very important. All right. Let's talk about this case study, boy, this case study. There's

Dan:
Oh,

Charles:
a couple of cringy

Dan:
cringe

Charles:
ones in this chapter.

Dan:
worthy, oh.

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, so the first one is this guy has been dating this girl for four months and he takes her on vacation to Grenada and a

Dan:
Well,

Charles:
beautiful

Dan:
that was his first mistake.

Charles:
five-star resort is mentioned. So that's already, already you know, he's spending a lot of money on this. He also has not... yet had sex with this woman that he considers his girlfriend of four months. They've never had sex. And his plan is I'll take her on this fancy vacation and we'll have, we'll have sex on the vacation. Uh, he does not share this plan with her in any way, does not tell her that's what the expectation is or that that's what he thinks is going to happen. He just keeps that to himself. Takes her on the trip. Uh, surprise surprise, no sex happens. And then he's very angry about it and, uh, resentful and lashes out at her. And, uh, so yeah, he's got the covert contract. He's got the, um, uh, keeping the ledger. He's doing some of that too, where it's like, you know, I didn't pressure you to have sex and I haven't treated you bad like any of your other boyfriends. So Why aren't you giving me the sex that you owe me is essentially what he's saying.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And, and, uh, you know, at the end of it, he, uh, He sums up her thinking on it after, after this guy goes off and she, you know, sees his text or here's the voicemail or whatever. Um, her reaction is, thank God I didn't have sex with him. That would have been a disaster, but Hey, at least I got a free holiday out of it. I guarantee that's not what she was thinking in this scenario because being on the vacation with him while he's living under this covert contract and and thinking that she owes him sex, but he's not saying it. He's just acting like it. She knew there was something very, very wrong. And there's no way that she had a fun and light holiday with this guy while all this, while he's doing all this manipulation and all this overthinking. There's no way she had fun. And she was just able to write it off and say, Oh, at least I had a good time. Absolutely not. This was a miserable trip for both of them. And the fact that

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
Canwell doesn't understand that I think is naive on his part.

Dan:
Yeah, well, he even mentions earlier in this, through this example here where Sam, this guy, Sam had basically gotten on his knees and begged her to have sex with him on the trip.

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
How could,

Charles:
yeah

Dan:
how could you possibly think this was a great trip after him

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
acting that way?

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
there's no way she there's no way that was fun for her or flattering or anything that was that was traumatizing and cringy and uncomfortable for both of them. There's no way that it wasn't

Dan:
you know, the other thing he mentioned too was that her excuse for not being intimate with him for those first four months was because she was afraid to get hurt. So if she's really feeling afraid to get hurt, why would she sacri, why would she basically agree to be alone with him in a foreign country on, on a vacation where they're spending a lot of time together? I, you know, I, it doesn't quite line up in terms of a realistic type of scenario, but

Charles:
I would think the afraid

Dan:
you know,

Charles:
to get hurt part, she was afraid to get hurt part was probably some

Dan:
Oh, like the

Charles:
cognitive

Dan:
excuse

Charles:
dissonance on her part. Well,

Dan:
to.

Charles:
I think

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
what was going on with her was she was probably thinking, this is the kind of guy I should be attracted to, this is the kind of guy I should like, this is the kind of guy I should be with, but she didn't feel the

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
spark for him. So she was trying to talk herself into being excited about a relationship with this guy, but she just wasn't attracted to him.

Dan:
You know, and maybe in all fairness, you know, you hear about a wonderful tropical vacation, maybe she's thinking, Hey, maybe something will happen. And, uh, you know, it will,

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
we'll have a lot more scenarios or potential scenarios where there might be a spark that gets created because we're in this tropical paradise and maybe, yeah, maybe she's holding out hope that something would happen at that point. So I guess that's fair. Go either way.

Charles:
Yeah, I, uh, yeah, again, I, I have, I have more empathy for her in this scenario because I do feel like he put her through some pretty rough stuff because he was not willing to be honest about his expectations or his needs and you know, you don't, don't ever rely on some trip or some vacation or some romantic getaway to be the thing that solves a problem in.

Dan:
Hahahaha

Charles:
a perceived problem in your relationship. It just doesn't work that way.

Dan:
No?

Charles:
It's like the, you're going to, you're going to bring the person that you are on this vacation with you and she's going to bring the person that she is on this vacation. And so, you know, if things are going good, then they might go even better on a vacation and if things are going shitty, they're going to go even worse when you go on vacation.

Dan:
It's funny that you mention that because he even says afterwards one of the notes or one of the messages that Sam sends to her was oh you didn't get to see the true me. So so the version

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
of him on vacation Oh, well that didn't work. Um, you know what I could be somebody else. You didn't like you didn't like that guy

Charles:
Right.

Dan:
I'll be somebody else

Charles:
Yeah, that's yeah, it's rough. Okay. So the next thing that he discusses in this chapter is basically that it's a good idea for the fellow in the relationship to not be the one to open the door to the conversation of what are we, are we boyfriend, girlfriend, are we exclusive? It is, it is not a good idea for the man to bring that up. I would say. In most cases, it's not a good idea for the man to initiate meta conversations about the relationship. It's, it's a good idea for the man to participate in the relationship, to demonstrate how he feels with his actions about the relationship, but not to start conversations about the relationship. When, when a woman wants to know or wants to declare what you are. then let her bring up the conversation and then be an active participant in that conversation. But when you as a man feel like it's time for that conversation, it's because you're dealing with some anxiety and uncertainty that you want to soothe by getting reassurances from her. And just live with the discomfort and live with not knowing exactly what the nature of your relationship is. And look to her behavior, not her words to tell you how she feels about you. And.

Dan:
So what would you say to the guy who, let's say, has been dating a few girls and high quality women? discovers,

Charles:
What's

Dan:
hey,

Charles:
a high

Dan:
one

Charles:
quality

Dan:
of them.

Charles:
woman, Dan? That's

Dan:
To,

Charles:
a trigger

Dan:
that's an individual,

Charles:
term online.

Dan:
that's right. Well, that's an individual decision. It's you've

Charles:
Women.

Dan:
decided

Charles:
Okay. He's

Dan:
that

Charles:
decided

Dan:
they

Charles:
that he

Dan:
are

Charles:
is,

Dan:
meeting

Charles:
he is satisfied

Dan:
all of your.

Charles:
with. Okay. Fair enough.

Dan:
Right. So they are checking, they've got enough green flags and they're checking enough boxes for him to determine, that individual person to determine, Hey, I've met three women that I'm very excited about. I see potential with. But for whatever reason, one of them now is somebody that kind of stands out a little bit from

Charles:
Okay.

Dan:
the other people that he's dating. And he wants to have a committed relationship. So are you saying then to never, so then just still do not bring it up, do not have the conversation about, hey, I wanna commit to you or I wanna have a committed relationship. Are we saying here, if it's the right woman and you are making the, you are being your true self and you are expressing to her in your actions that you are looking for some sort of commitment and she's not picking up what you're putting down, then she might not be the one. So, I mean, in like every case, it really should be, even if you feel like this is a really great woman that you wanna settle down with, if it really is, she's gonna bring it up, it won't be something that you need to initiate. Am I understanding that correctly?

Charles:
I'm trying to think of a scenario where it would be a good idea... for the man to do that.

Dan:
because this kind of, it kind of really flies in the face of the whole process that we've been, you know, inundated with, which is, you know, the man is always pursuing the woman. The man proposes to the woman, gets down on one knee for, you know, for marriage, you know, the man, the man is taking and initiating and taking the lead in these relationships and things, right? There's a lot of, there's a lot of influence that we have from people in society that is a typical common. expected way for a man and woman to get together.

Charles:
I do know that, I mean, the, the data that he cites in this chapter is pretty clear that the more available a man is perceived to be the less attractive he's perceived to be. And there is,

Dan:
Supply

Charles:
there's

Dan:
and demand.

Charles:
very few.

Dan:
Yep.

Charles:
Right. And there are very few things that will broadcast your high availability more than you starting a conversation to say, I want to be exclusive with you because that puts you in a position

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
where you're saying Hey, I recognize you as something that is rare and valuable and I would like to lock you down and when, when you go to someone with that, I think there is a, a very healthy impulse to say, Oh, wait a second. He, he wants to lock me down. So does that mean I'm more valuable than he is because he's the one trying to lock me down and I'm not the one trying to lock him down.

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
And so I, I feel like you're. I feel like your attractiveness and your value will take a hit. If you're the one to bring up this conversation now, maybe you've got attractiveness and value to spare. And so you are comfortable taking that hit

Dan:
It's fair, yeah.

Charles:
and you're fine with that. You know, you're, you're thinking, okay, I'm getting older. I do want to move this forward. I want to start a family with this woman and to, to get to the point where we're married with kids, you know, the next step is to be. She's only dating me and I'm only dating her. And so,

Dan:
Mm-hmm.

Charles:
you know, maybe you feel like based on where you're at in your life, that is a risk you're willing to take, but that's okay. Just don't pretend like it's not a risk and don't pretend like there is not going to be some sort of a potential downside to you being the one to crack that door open and walk her through it. Cause I believe that there

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
would be, I think that the, the safest course of action. would be for you to maintain your, um, I guess freedom would be the most, the most appropriate word, your freedom to date multiple people until such a point where a woman that you're involved with says, okay, I, I don't want that freedom for myself anymore. I don't want that freedom for you anymore. I want us to both have commitment in the place of freedom. And then you can either decide to say, okay, I want that too, or no, I don't want that. Um, I think that is the position of greatest strength and attractiveness. But again, I'm not going to say that one size fits all there. There are reasons that you look, we've talked about before. I, I smile, I joke. I talk about how much I love going to zoos and playing with animals all the time. And these are all things that the author of this book would say, if you're trying to maximize how attractive you are to women, you shouldn't be doing these things. It's like, well, Screw off. I do what I want and these are some of the things

Dan:
Well,

Charles:
I enjoy.

Dan:
I mean, I don't know if you would say that because, you know, part of the attractiveness is that you own it and that you aren't ashamed of it. And you're it's

Charles:
Yeah,

Dan:
not

Charles:
but...

Dan:
making you don't you know what I'm saying?

Charles:
But,

Dan:
Yeah. OK, maybe they're

Charles:
yeah.

Dan:
not stereotypical, manly, you know, type of activities to do. But, you know, if, you know, I feel like if you. thoroughly enjoy it and it is part of who you are and you own it and you're not ashamed of it, that is in and of itself is attractive.

Charles:
And you're right, but that's not what he says. And so the, the author of this book, this guy doesn't put his thoughts across just by writing his words down on the page. When he chooses what

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
studies to include in his book, that is also

Dan:
Mmm.

Charles:
a way that he

Dan:
Okay.

Charles:
puts forth his philosophies and the fact that, you know, he puts in a study that says men who are not kind to their waiters are more attractive than men who are, you know, guys who say please and thank you. are not as attractive. Guys who put their cigarettes out on the floor instead of putting them in an ashtray are judged

Dan:
Right,

Charles:
to

Dan:
okay,

Charles:
be more

Dan:
so,

Charles:
attractive. The fact that he chooses

Dan:
all right.

Charles:
to put those in his book, that means something about what he thinks about the world.

Dan:
Okay, so I think we need to put a little bit of a disclaimer and a context around those because my understanding, the way I took that was these were men that were not known, these were strangers in the study, but I thought what they were, they were just scenes that women were watching and these were strangers and it wasn't necessarily somebody that they are dating or... or are familiar with already. So I think

Charles:
Right, that's true.

Dan:
where he was coming from was he was showing that being powerful and showing signs of somebody who's important and powerful, and unfortunately in a really shitty way, that is typically more, without knowing anything else about the person, that is typically been shown to be a little bit more attractive on the surface. Now, again, somebody who behaves that way in a relationship, right, and is a dick to waiters or, you know, puts out cigarettes on the floor. I, you know, I can't imagine a quality woman putting up with that in terms of, or thinking that's attractive after, like when they're on a date with that person and trying to get to know that person. Cause I feel like the, the risk then of being socially, because, because by continuing to act that way, I feel like you, you were displaying. a lack of social awareness. And we know that's very important in terms of being attractive and being able to provide a healthy and safe environment for any type of relationship, right? So I think

Charles:
Right?

Dan:
on a surface level, maybe, that's the way I kind of looked at it is a really a real surface level type of attraction and not, hey, this is the way you behave and maintain your attraction.

Charles:
Right. Yeah. But I mean, here's the thing though. I mean, let's maybe I'm just being cynical. This, this, this is a how to book written for men and sold to men who are not good at getting women.

Dan:
It

Charles:
And

Dan:
fair.

Charles:
so

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
they're, they're reading this book thinking,

Dan:
It

Charles:
how do I need to act? How do I need to dress? What, what cologne do I need to wear? How do I need to talk to women? How do I need to be to get the women that I want? And they're going to.

Dan:
You're right.

Charles:
see this, they're going to see these examples that he's chosen to put in his book and think, okay, well,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
this is what I need to do. If I stop saying thank you to my servers and maybe the girl on the other side of the coffee shop will look at me and think I'm attractive.

Dan:
If nothing else, it's confusing. Absolutely, yeah.

Charles:
Yeah. And,

Dan:
Because

Charles:
and look,

Dan:
if,

Charles:
I mean,

Dan:
right.

Charles:
yeah, the, the thing, the thing you've got to do as, as a man, no matter what your goals are, you got to decide who you are, what you're comfortable with and, and how you believe a person's supposed to conduct themselves. And I mean, I don't, I don't care if you know, you could guarantee me the Gal Gadot and Margot Robbie would be chasing me down the street. I'm not going to start being rude to servers because that's not who I am. And so I don't care what the, I don't care what the prizes

Dan:
So,

Charles:
that I could

Dan:
yeah.

Charles:
potentially get by behavior that I find unacceptable. I'm not going to act that way. No matter what you promise me.

Dan:
So here's another thing that I think makes it confusing, but maybe possibly another way to look at this is he put in those specifically shocking type of studies to help people, men maybe, mostly, break free of some of our really longstanding preconceived ideas around human relations and interactions and things, because We're still talking about it. You know, like many, you know, so it really, it was a kind of like an awakening, hey, wait a minute, maybe I don't have it all figured out. Maybe there's some information or maybe there's some psychology that I'm not familiar with and I'm saying it's not, I'm not saying it's clear, but maybe it's kind of a, hey, now that I realize I could be wrong about something, maybe I'm a little bit more open to hearing other concepts that. I might have thought one way about and now I'm going to reconsider because, Hey, I, you know, I didn't, that's crazy to me, you know, well, maybe I don't have a, maybe I don't have it all figured.

Charles:
Yeah, I hope

Dan:
Just,

Charles:
so.

Dan:
I'm

Charles:
I hope

Dan:
just

Charles:
that

Dan:
throwing

Charles:
that's,

Dan:
it out there. I'm just throwing

Charles:
I

Dan:
it

Charles:
hope,

Dan:
out there,

Charles:
I hope

Dan:
you

Charles:
that's

Dan:
know.

Charles:
the, I hope that's

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
the impact that it has. It feels more likely that it contributes to the, the false narrative that you have to either be a nice guy or you

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
have to be an asshole. Either you're

Dan:
Yeah, that's what.

Charles:
a lonely,

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
you're either you're a lonely, nice guy, or you're an asshole that gets all the ladies. And that is, that seems to be, you know, sort of the red pill, black pill mentality online is it's got to be one of those two. Either I'm a nice guy that women walk all over. or I'm an asshole and all the women love me. And it's like, no, you don't have to be either of those things, there's something else you can be. And I feel like the fact that he chooses to put examples like that in his book, it's negatively contributing to the conversation to let guys believe that, oh, okay, I just have to be a rude asshole and then I'll get the women.

Dan:
Yeah. And I think this is a great, a great example of the value that we provide here at mindfully masculine is

Charles:
Hehehehe

Dan:
we, we try to get the, we try to get the bath water. We try to get the baby and leave some of the bath water. Not every

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
author is perfect just because they say a couple of good things. Doesn't mean everything that they put out there is going to be great and perfect. So I think that's, that's a great example of what we're trying to do here is going through a lot of these concepts and books and things and figuring out, Hey, this doesn't make sense or this does make sense or we agree with that. And for me, talking to you about it has really helped with my critical thinking, hear your perspective on it. And it's like, wow, we read the same thing, but you pulled that out of it. And it's like, oh, wow, okay, I can see that now, all right. And it just, it helps me then think a little bit more critically on the next topic that we're talking about. So hopefully that's what we're doing for you guys that are listening. So that's my little

Charles:
Yeah.

Dan:
sales

Charles:
And

Dan:
pitch there.

Charles:
yeah, I enjoy, I enjoy getting in because again, I don't, I don't look at any of these books and I mean, I have a very strong, What's the word? I am not a person that likes to go along with anybody. I'm not somebody who signs on for a tribe. You know, whether we're talking about politics or an author, or, uh, I am, I'm disagreeable generally. I am always looking for the, okay. I like what this person has to say, but what are the things that they're saying that I don't like? And I'm kind of, my, my focus is always drawn to the, okay, what do I disagree with this person about? I like this, I like this, but what about this? And yeah, I'm high in disagreeableness on the big five personality, like very high, like extremely high. And so as a result, yeah, I'm never willing to sign on with any particular author, political party, religion, any of that stuff. I'm always thinking, okay, what, you know, I'm going to treat any philosophy I encounter, I'm going to treat like a hand of gin rummy, where it's like, okay, what are the cards that I want to keep and what are the cards I want to throw away? And I'm going to throw away the cards I don't want and hope that the cards that I draw are better cards. And, uh, I like to think that, you know, that's, that's the way we all make our lives better is by we take the hand we were originally dealt and we throw away the garbage and we keep collecting new cards. And if we keep doing it for long enough, like remember back at Veritas, the computer company where they would do the, uh, spring cleaning, they'd cut the top, the bottom 10% of the, of employee performers every year. And, uh, The idea was if you keep cutting the bottom 10%, you're going to have a better company year after year. And, uh, I tried to do that when it comes to philosophy and, uh, and ideas as well. And, uh, you know, I'm sure there's a few bad ideas that have stuck around longer than they should have, but, uh, I'm trying to cut the, cut the dead weight philosophically out of my life as quickly as I can.

Dan:
I like it. I like that analogy.

Charles:
Um, all right, so let's, uh, I think that's about where I wanted to stop with this chapter

Dan:
Yeah.

Charles:
as far as, uh, chasing. Um, yeah, don't, uh, don't rob women of the pleasure that they get in, uh, in chasing down a man that they, they perceive to be valuable and rare and, uh, don't, don't give away too much of yourself and don't chase for commitment and don't chase for relationships. Chase for good times with interesting people. I mean, make, make good times, make fun dates happen with women that you find interesting and attractive, but don't go into it thinking, you know, Oh, if I have three really good dates, then when I ask her to be my girlfriend, she'll have to say yes. That is not the mindset that's going to lead you to the relationships you want to be in. Just focus on having good, fun, connected times with people you enjoy being around. And the commitment side of it will take care of itself.

Dan:
Yeah, that's good. Great summary.

Charles:
All right. The next chapter is going to be a tough one. Uh, the power of sex and boy, it gets into some specific things to do in the bedroom that will, uh, make a woman. Attracted to you and orgasmic and want to keep having sex with you. And so I will be very uncomfortable talking about those things because I grew up as a good church boy and it's hard to get into these conversations.

Dan:
We'll get it done for sure. The quote here for the next chapter is, "'Sex is not only the basis of life, "'it is the reason for life,' Norman Lindsay." And

Charles:
Uh-huh.

Dan:
that's pretty much the truth.

Charles:
It is, yeah, and

Dan:
You know?

Charles:
I wonder how many attempts it's gonna take us to get this episode recorded, Dan, before I feel comfortable with what we come up with.

Dan:
I think it should be our first video episode. That would be great.

Charles:
Ooh, that

Dan:
In

Charles:
could

Dan:
the pot.

Charles:
be interesting. I will,

Dan:
Well, I think we should

Charles:
I...

Dan:
do it. Let's do it.

Charles:
I already have a little bit of a suntan and I will be mostly red for the duration of that episode, I'm sure. So, yeah, let's look forward to trying to do this one on video.

Dan:
All right, that's great. I think that would be a perfect first video in the studio chapter.

Charles:
All right. I will try to remember to put my application code in the show notes so that if you guys want to join me on the, uh, how we feel app, um, you can. And, uh, I, I think it's great. I think being able to label how you're feeling is an important step that a lot of us guys were never taught. And, uh, I think being able to, it's got a great interface for scrolling through and finding the, uh, the emotion that you're currently feeling. It's also got a search engine. So you can just start typing. If you already know how you're feeling, start typing the name and then that, that and some emotions related to it will come up and you pick the one that's the most appropriate. So, it's completely free. I like it. How we feel,

Dan:
Awesome.

Charles:
I will put the note, the link and my code in the show notes. And then I hope that some of you will decide to track your feelings and share them with me. I will probably not respond to how you're feeling, but I will look at it and notice it. So there you go.

Dan:
All right, sir.

Charles:
Alright, talk to you later, Dan. I'll see you at dinner tonight.

Dan:
Sounds good. Have a good one. Bye bye.

Charles:
Bye.