Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Giving What You Want vs Giving What They Need

October 02, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles & Dan Episode 99
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers
Dan:

Good morning, Charles how are you?

Charles:

Good morning, Dan. I'm doing all right. How are you I?

Dan:

am well.

Charles:

Good, we are at your house recording at 9.30, which is about the usual time that we record, but we're doing it together, across the table from each other, which we usually don't do, but hopefully we will more in the future. How's your week going?

Dan:

A week has been busy so far, but it's busy but good. So been busy with the IT stuff and a lot of client work coming up with that, so that's been good and getting ready for a trip up to New Jersey, and yeah, how about you?

Charles:

Same Busy with the tech stuff.

Charles:

I last yesterday I was doing my normal weekly well, not my normal weekly busy, because usually I go on a Thursday and I went yesterday because I'm also going up to the Northeast fly up tomorrow. So I went yesterday and did the usual stuff during the day and then I had a laptop I had to upgrade that. I couldn't disrupt their work schedule so I had to wait for them to leave and finish working for the day before I could literally tear it apart and put in a new hard drive and copy the old data to the new drive and all that stuff. So I didn't leave St Petersburg last night till around 10 after 8 and then on the drive back in the Lakeland metropolitan area I realized how hungry I was. So I stopped to eat a dinner proper dinner at a table and everything with utensils, instead of just eating out of the gas station because I am trying to get my. Now that I've got a refrigerator again, I'm trying to get my eating under control. So grilled chicken Caesar salad it was Good and yeah.

Charles:

I didn't end up getting home last night till about 10 after 11.

Charles:

Okay, and that you know. And then the alarm this morning went off at 4.45, as it does, and so I am operating on a little bit less sleep than I typically like. I had to set the. I mean, the alarm's always set early, but today in particular, I had to set a separate alarm to remind me to check in for my flight tomorrow morning, which is at 5, take off is at 5.15, which means wake up looks a lot like 3am tomorrow, yeah, and then I don't get access to the room in my or the bed in my hostel until 3 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, or, you know, friday afternoon, no, tomorrow afternoon, sorry, tomorrow afternoon. So I'll wake up at 3,. I won't even have access to a bed until 3pm, but I'll be in New York, so I'm not going to just check in and go straight to sleep obviously.

Charles:

So tomorrow is going to be a very, very, very, very, very long day, hopefully with some fun stuff.

Charles:

Oh, and then Friday I didn't tell you this Friday I booked a ticket to go to a Halloween event in Sleepy Hollow, new York. Oh, wow, so I'm going to get on the Hudson line out of Grand Central and go up to I guess it's Irving New York, okay, and I think that's the station that I get off of, and then I'll Uber or Lyft into Sleepy Hollow and there's like some giant pumpkin patch and and like a big, big walkthrough exhibit and yeah, all that. And then I'll be doing that and then I will get on the train and go back to New York and end up back in the hostel on the Upper West Side to sleep. And yeah, I haven't, I haven't worked out exactly what I'm going to do tomorrow. I'm going to try to think of things I can do that are relaxing, to get a little bit of juice back during the day tomorrow, since I can't actually sleep. I love in the movie Rounders how, when they're playing poker all night, they go and find an old fashioned barber to get a straight razor shave to relax.

Dan:

Okay.

Charles:

So I may do that. I mean, I'm not going to let them take the beard, but I'll let them do the neck and the cheeks and maybe work on the lines a little bit. All right and might find myself in a movie theater, because, you know, even though I won't fall asleep, it's still kind of relaxing to be in the in the dark room in a comfy chair, but there's also probably, oh, I could get a massage, that's. That's what I might do.

Dan:

That's my number one go to. I'm in airports and while I'm waiting in a city for something like, I was out in Vegas and I went to Canyon Ranch massage. That's a nice one and that was fantastic and you get access to the facilities for the entire day. So get the massage right and I had a good eight hours to kill.

Charles:

So I wonder what a good good spa in New York City is. I know there's a. There's like a Turkish bath in the city and there's got to be a. There's got to be a spa, though, like at one of the hotels with the full, where you get access to the pool and the and the hot tub and you know place to lay out and all that stuff. Oh, I think I'm going to look into that. That seems like it's it's bumped its way to the top of the list for what I'm going to do tomorrow, absolutely. I've also found a tour on a website that is like where an Instagram influencer takes you on a tour of all the most Instagrammable spots of New York City.

Charles:

Cool hey yeah, that sounds kind of fun. I think it's only like 60 or 70 bucks. It's not that expensive. It's like two hours long, okay, and so I may do that, but I'm worried I'm going to be too tired to do it. So I mean, I did upgrade my seat on Spirit tomorrow morning in Isle, toward the middle of the plane. It only cost me $4 to upgrade, so I probably would have gotten a fine seat anyway, but for $4, I'd rather lock it in. Yeah, that's. I mean literally I can't buy a snack on their plane for $4. So I may as well use it to get a guaranteed good seat. Yeah.

Dan:

My move would be probably go get the massage and then, you know, hit up the influencer and see you know, after you've been a little refreshed from a massage.

Charles:

Yeah, I think they do a tour at like 10 o'clock, one o'clock and four o'clock, so the four o'clock one would probably be the move.

Charles:

But yeah, I mean I, I land in New York City at like 746 am so I'm going to be. Yeah, if I could find a spa where I could get in there for the day that early and, you know, put in the, put in my AirPods and just listen to some stuff and have a nice, nice chase lounge to relax in, that would be a good way to. I wonder if they let you sleep. They probably wouldn't stop you from sleeping as long as you're paid to be there. Oh, no, yeah.

Dan:

Yeah, you'd be fine.

Charles:

Yeah, now, mass and Square Park, they won't let you just sleep there, not that I've tried, yeah, the outside places, other people who have attempted it, and it doesn't work, yeah, Okay. So let's see what else is going on. So I got quite a few trips scheduled between now and the end of the year. I've got three trips into New York City between now and the end of the year this one, one for my birthday, and then a couple of weeks when I go up to New Jersey for the mammoth march.

Charles:

I decided to fly instead of drive because it just got. When I'm looking at the time and the gas to make the trip in my car, I found a round trip ticket for less than $99 and a car rental for less than $99. And I was already planning on spending a night in the hotel, the night before the hike and the night after the hike. So that's a fixed cost anyway, and so I'm saving a bunch of money by flying and renting a car over making the road trip, and it also keeps miles off my, my car, my tires, my, yada, yada, yada, yada, a car that I don't plan on keeping for more than a couple more months.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

Seemed like things worked out where it made way more sense to fly Just time wise.

Dan:

It's just such a difference.

Charles:

Yeah, it's.

Dan:

I was planning on two eight hour days each way and then when you get there, if you've been driving the whole time, you're tired man.

Charles:

It's just not going to. It's not going to be the same experience.

Charles:

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, where? This way I'm, I'm flying, it's another early morning flight and I can't check into my hotel, and how, how, how long? I want to say until three. So again, I can fly to LaGuardia. I'm not renting the car till later on in the day. So, flying to LaGuardia, take the bus to the subway, go to some great diner, have a nice big Keto New York breakfast, taking some sites, and then eventually make my way back to LaGuardia, pick up the car and then drive to New Jersey and then, you know, go to sleep early, because I believe my my 30 mile hike starts at 6am and the plan is to have it finished by 6pm.

Dan:

So have you selected the, the trail mix that you're going to be accompanying Dan? I'm so glad On that trip because there's so many good choices, so glad you asked, yes, I've been putting a lot of thought into it.

Charles:

I'm sure you have. So the plan I've come up with is I am not getting the Turtle Sunday trail mix because if I buy that I will just eat it while I'm walking out of the store because it's my favorite. So I'm going to go with one of the sort of second tier trail mixes that I believe I can. I still enjoy, I still love, but I don't love it so much that I have to. It's kind of like the Keto ice cream that's out there. It's like I like it, but I have never polished off a single pine of a pine of it in one sitting because it's just not that good. And so I'm going to go with, probably, the mint chocolate trail mix Again really good, but not so good that I have to rip into the bag as I'm walking out of target.

Dan:

I put some screws and washers in there to kind of slow you down a little bit, you know yeah, those bowls for dogs.

Charles:

Right, I have to do that with my trail mix.

Dan:

That's probably not a bad idea.

Charles:

You got to pick through some of the wing nuts in there. I can't just open my mouth and pour the bag in.

Dan:

Daniel, still love you. Yeah, oh, you're back again. Okay, all right, some new teeths.

Charles:

Yeah, so yeah, but I have given a lot of thought. I did order a brand new fanny pack for this, this hike. That holds four liters of storage, which will be enough for my phone, my backup headphones, my big phone battery charger, and it also has two 20 ounce bottle water bottles that go inside, and for those I'm thinking because I probably will need to keep my sugar a little bit more elevated than I normally would I'm thinking of putting in getting some of those single mixers of Country Time Pink Lemonade, which, when I was a high schooler and in college, working at the summer camp that my church supported, that was the go-to beverage was the Country Time Pink Lemonade, Tons of sugar, but when you need energy, when you need to get ramped up, it does the trick, yeah it does.

Charles:

Soda would go flat and not taste as good. Warm, right, yeah. But yeah, pink Lemonade, it tastes good under all circumstances. So that's my nutrition plan for the hike. Okay, target trail mix, some Epic bars, some hard cheeses and Country Time Lemonade. Now, the Country Time Lemonade will only last me as long as it lasts me, and then I'll just be refilling my water bottles that they put a filling station every six miles or so, whether it's porta-potties and fruit snacks and stuff like that. So I'll have other food and other drink to supplement it. Last time I went, they actually had Monster Energy drinks, but they were warm. Oh, it is as much as I love them when their eyes cold, they are terrible warm, oh my God, they're about as bad as diet soda, which I also cannot, not even Coke Zero. I can't drink any diet soda warm. Wow, I need a cold. So, yeah, you have your sleep stuff, I have my snack stuff and everything else that I have.

Dan:

That has to be perfect or else or else you heard that Snack companies out there, yes, get on it.

Charles:

So let's, let's dump into our material. We jump in, not dump in. We have another chapter of this very long book to cover, but the end is in sight. Mm-hmm and you know I I don't know if I'm so disagreeable about the stuff he says just because I've been in the book so long and I'm getting tired of it, or if maybe no, you can stand your sentence right there, I know you that's it, that's that's your, you're just, you're just impatient or maybe his effort falls off toward the end of the book a little bit.

Charles:

Yeah, so I got stuff in the next couple chapters to really all right over. Well, yeah, we'll talk with that through, all right. So the first part don't focus on the relationship. Talking about relationships is a surefire way to jinx them. I don't know who Maggie Grace is although the actress that played Shannon on lost name was Maggie Grace but I doubt that it's her that he's quoted.

Charles:

Mmm so it's probably someone else. Okay, I would agree that when you focus on the relationship instead of Focusing on yourself, your your mission in life, your health, your needs and even, at some level, your partner's needs.

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Charles:

Those are all good things to focus on, but when you focus on the mechanics of, of the relationship itself and thinking you know what can I do today Specifically to make this relationship easier, or what can I do to make this relationship last? Then you get into that realm where you're giving to get instead of being yourself, and the results are usually not good.

Dan:

And you know I absolutely agree with that and you know it's taken me far too long in my life to figure that out is, you know, what is more valuable than focusing on Repairing the relationship or doing something for the relationship is the, the value that you provide by creating a wonderful life.

Dan:

And, you know, basically having fun things to do and and and and just Bringing positive emotions to yourself and to the person that you're with. Right, that's a lot more valuable and that in and of itself, I feel, goes a long way to make the relationship better. So that's probably still a more effective fix than honing in. I mean, it doesn't mean not to think about what's going on in the relationship and then think, okay, well, there's some issues here, but not to focus on and getting into the nitty-gritty about those issues rather than At least first try to look at hey, what can I bring to the table? Are there things that I can change in my life that's going on, or our life that's going on that you know can actually help repair some of the the challenges that you might be running into?

Charles:

right, I agree, and I think that One of the things I I noticed before we started recording today I was looking at this chapter in the next chapter mostly the next chapter, because I forgot we hadn't done this one yet. One of my biggest disconnects with this author is in the language and the place that I think a lot of men come from, and and the way that men have been conditioned to behave in their relationship. So, for example, he says that Basically, men who are highly responsive that's that's the word that he used they think that if they talk about their feelings enough, they'll form a strong connection With a woman and and she'll fall in love and there will be intimacy. And it is a form of intimacy to talk about your feelings. But here's the thing. So responsiveness. He then goes to say that the the study that he cites, the researchers are measuring or defining responsiveness a Series of traits such as being nurturing, kind, supportive and emotionally available.

Charles:

Mm-hmm and what I would say is women, for the most part, absolutely want a man who is nurturing, kind, supportive and emotionally available. What happens is and I wish he would make this distinction when you and I give our version of those things to women, that's not what they want. There's a version of being kind and supportive and emotionally available that they want, but the version that we have put together, based on the lack of instruction from our parents, based on the movies and the books and stuff that we've watched, that's where I think the the mismatch happens, where our version of those traits is not what they want.

Dan:

Okay, let's get into it. What?

Charles:

version of those traits is what they want.

Dan:

Okay, and so help me understand what what's the difference.

Charles:

I'll roll it back to what you were just saying, which is when you're a man who can regulate his emotions, has a fulfilling and content life, you've got a career that you're proud of, that you enjoy, that you're engaged in, you've got hobbies and male friends that you're tight with, then I think those traits of being kind and supportive and nurturing and emotionally available, they spring up from the well of a help, mentally healthy man, mm-hmm. So you don't have to work at those things. When you've put time into your mental and physical health, you also, again in a traditional sense, when you have Traditional masculine tendencies and traditional masculine traits from your biology, when you invest in your mental health, I believe those positive things that women want, they just come out of you and you don't have to work at them. It's the guys who haven't done the work and don't have those things coming out of them naturally that try to manufacture their own version of being kind and supportive and nurturing, and that's when women are.

Charles:

In the next chapter We'll talk about the guy who Cancels his fishing trip because he wants to make his wife happy. Yeah, that is a I Guess week is the best term. That's a weak man's version of, let me do the nurturing thing that she's asking for when that's not really. And see, that's the thing that We'll get into it.

Dan:

He's he because he doesn't.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah she did she never. She never actually asks him to do that. The author act acts as if good point in his story asked for that. She never really asked her that he volunteered it because she asked for more time exactly and and. And he says, well, how about I cancel my trip? And her response is not yes, please do that. It's, oh, you do that for me. That is not the same as her saying please cancel your fishing trip. Yeah, there's there. Yeah, we'll get into that story in detail, but good point.

Charles:

So, yeah, I think it comes down to In so many cases we're trying and that's and that's really the definition of caretaking. Caretaking is giving someone what you want to give them, what not what they need from you. And what he describes here at least the way I see it the man who is trying to be nurturing and kind and supportive and emotionally available he's doing it on his terms, in a way that he's comfortable giving those things, not giving them in the way that she actually wants or needs or is even verbalized Her requirements.

Dan:

Yeah, yeah. So I mean I mean, the tricky part about that in the next chapter is, you know, she does ask, she wants more time and she's questioning his motives and we can get eyes. We are all hold off on that, I'll go.

Charles:

I mean, I tend to almost want to just go. So let's go to the fucking.

Dan:

Yeah, the chapter yeah, might as well, right yeah this is our show, we can do it. Oh fuck, we want exactly.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, so so take that Is the rest of this chapter is mostly case studies right.

Dan:

Let's do that because we tend to be gravitating that direction anyway. So yeah.

Charles:

So the next chapter kicks off with, in the same vein, a woman asks for commitment, love and devotion and a man thinks if he Gives her these things he'll make her happy. He probably will make her happy, but not just the give. To get nice guy version of commitment, love and devotion, like, oh, she's asking for these things, so to get what I need from her, I better give her what she's asking for. And then, yeah, I unload my version of commitment, love and devotion honor and she's like, yeah, that's not really what I wanted. And so that's again.

Dan:

I think that's where the disconnect is and that's where a lot of guys are like I don't understand women and I don't understand what they're saying. I know I can't. It's completely two different languages and in some senses it really is. Unless you really dig in and try to really Understand, you know what, what they're saying and what they mean and those are whole. You know whole. Two whole different things.

Charles:

So and I would say the information about you know how to understand what a woman's saying, what she is asking for, what she wants, what she needs. You're not going to get it from atomic attraction. You're probably not going to get it from your own intuition and you're and there's a good chance you're not going to get it from exactly what she's asking for either. But the things that you, the sources you go to for this information, are one her behavior, how is she acting? Not what is she saying, but how is she acting, and you and I talk about that all the time. That's not a man-woman thing, that's a human being thing. When you want to understand what somebody wants, what their motivation is, look at what they're doing, not at what they're saying.

Dan:

Right. I mean we are so programmed and influenced by media society Our parents are upbringing you know that we're going to say things to meet those standards, to kind of protect ourselves from being basically kicked out of the out of the tribe. Right, that's our, our, our primal brain will basically do that, right. So we're going to say all of these things Doesn't mean we mean them because, like you said, what are the actions, look like behind those, those words?

Charles:

right, yeah, and and the you know again, it's. It's always kind of shaky ground where you start saying to people you know, don't believe what people tell you, believe anything else. But because people have a right to express their opinions, express their needs, and you know, the ideal relationship is one where you're not constantly having to second guess your partner, man or woman, about. Well, I know you're saying you want this, but I believe you actually want this. I mean, that's a recipe for disaster.

Dan:

This can drive you nuts. I mean, that's I've. I realized that a little bit earlier in life, which was I don't want to micromanage anybody an employee, or a partner or spouse.

Dan:

I just that's not enjoyable. I'm not. You know that. That is just extra work. That is almost like having a child where you, you know you have to stay on top of them. No, I for me, anyway, I want a partner who's who's, who's you know, who says you know those, what they say that we're going to do, when they're going to do it, and if they can't, they're proactive enough to let me know in advance when that's that's not going to happen. It sounds like it's not that much, but it really is a lot, and not everybody operates that way.

Charles:

I've found out, yeah, and when it comes to you know, friends, friends too, yeah, for sure, when it comes to voicing your needs and what you expect from a relationship. And I mean, I look, I believe there are probably women out there who got all those skills from their childhood, from their very happily married and engaged mom and dad who were in love with each other and in love with their careers or or their vocations or whatever they did, and they also gave the kids all the time and attention that they needed, and I just what kind of Disney movie are you writing right now?

Dan:

I'm saying does that actually exist.

Charles:

I'm sure those women are out there.

Dan:

Really.

Charles:

They want nothing to do with me.

Dan:

I mean the more, the more you start talking about, I mean, yeah, that's the ideal situation. But you know, as you were talking, I just went through my mind I'm like, wow, I don't know anybody like that, yeah me too, it's just like that is so rare, but it is. It's been sold to us, as that is what normal should be.

Charles:

I mean, I would say it's what optimal should be, but it's, it's certainly not a big difference.

Dan:

That's a big difference, right, yeah, it's optimal but not normal. But the problem is because I feel a lot of us feel like that is normal. When we aren't at that level now, we start to feel shitty about ourselves. Now, we sort of feel bad about ourselves or these other people, and so it comes back down to like the last chapter is how do you manage those situations? Right?

Charles:

Well, and that's the thing, You're gonna be perfect. If you grew up without those things, then you know. Fortunately for you, we live in a time where there are 12 step recovery groups, there are therapists, there are men's groups, there are church groups. There are a lot of. There's books, there's great books, yeah, there's mental health Instagram, there's podcast. I mean there are a lot of tools out there.

Dan:

You gotta be intentional to, to, to and not let all the other stuff that wants your attention grab it. So you gotta really, you really gotta be intentional about seeking that out.

Charles:

And the thing I found, unfortunately, with all of those resources is the ones that will help the most are the ones you don't want to go to or don't want to indulge in the most as well.

Dan:

Yeah, it's making you uncomfortable. Yes, sure.

Charles:

And the ones that, when it comes to rewiring your brain, that doesn't happen by watching a cute cartoon on YouTube. You know, as far as your attachment style and your love languages and the way you give and receive, there's. There's no easy pamphlet that you read on any of those things that can actually give you a meaningful change in in how that works. It's it's like the more positive change you want I mean, we see the same thing in the gym and the same thing in the kitchen the more positive change you want, the bigger changes you have to be willing to endure, because it's the easy stuff you know, unless you, I mean maybe the very small incremental things. If you live for 300 or 400 years, you'll be able to just do you know 300 or 400 years of looking at mental health memes on Instagram. Maybe that'll fix you right up. But who among us has that much time? I don't think it would. But you know what I'm saying.

Charles:

It's like if, if you care about making changes and you want to make them in some reasonable amount of time where you still have a life in front of you, then you got to do the uncomfortable stuff today and start on it today to see those changes and supplement it with some of the easier stuff, like listening to our podcast and reading some, if not all, of the books we recommend. But yeah, the I mean for me, the, the therapy and the, the 12 step stuff has been the hardest to do on a consistent basis and has left me with not great days sometimes because of the stuff that I open up and get into. But it's also the stuff where the next day I'm like man, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Dan:

It's temporary, Like everything else in life. You know that uncomfortableness is temporary, and the more you practice getting uncomfortable, even with little things, not even those big things that you're dealing with, the easier it's going to be and the better your mindset and your intention is going to be before you start tackling some of these really uncomfortable things. And that's that's where I am a big fan of the tiny habits method, because it's getting you incrementally uncomfortable and just pushing you to the point of where you're getting to that discomfort level and then and then backing off on it. So you're just getting used to being uncomfortable, and I definitely need to do that more myself.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, one of the things that a quote from Dr Drew Pinsky that I may have shared on the podcast before. I don't remember, but I heard him once say you know therapy in particular and I think this probably applied to men's groups, 12 subgroups, things like that as well it's not about the things that you say or hear while you're in the room. It was about that we would have a core reporter in there making a transcript of everything and you could just read it back and the more you read it, the healthier you'd get. He's like it's about what you feel in the room and it's the feelings that stick with you, not the things you say, not the things you hear. It's the way you feel, the connection you feel with the therapist or the other group members, and he's like that's what builds the ability for you to change and rewire your brain. It's the feelings you encounter and experience with other humans, not just the things you say or the things you hear.

Dan:

So this is perfect, because you were just talking about seminars and how you were like, oh, I'm ready to. You know, I'm kind of tired of the virtual seminars and I'm ready to go back. You're talking about going to Tony Robbins, and I was mentioning too, I went to Brendan Bouchard in person a couple of years ago and you're right, man, you just can't get that same energy and emotion and feelings Looking at your computer, even if you see people jumping up and down on your screen, versus somebody standing next to you jumping up and down and screaming in your ear. You're getting all those other emotions and senses, that sensory input, right there. That's what it's about.

Charles:

And just thinking about it, I get chills.

Dan:

Just even remembering it is giving me chills that I don't get from doing a seminar online.

Charles:

I've watched some of them. I've seen some of the clips where Tony Robbins has people get up on a chair when I'm watching it on Netflix or on YouTube or walking across the hot coals. Yeah, I would never do that, but once you're in, the room and everybody's doing it, you're doing it, yep, and it's kind of like dancing.

Charles:

Yes, and you don't feel well, I was going to say, and you don't feel self-conscious about it, but I haven't gotten to that level of dancing yet. Yeah, I mean maybe a little bit in some of the group classes I did, and also when it was just me and Victoria. I never, but when I would show up at one of them.

Dan:

But that's how you started, right. Remember this perfect example, right, when you first started with Victoria and stuff like that, you're probably pretty uncomfortable. I was very uncomfortable and it's very self-conscious, right and so then it's just great.

Charles:

And when I took my first in that class I was uncomfortable in the first one. But then a few weeks in, where I kind of you know because I was also cheating where I would do the lesson with Victoria on the same dance that we were doing in the group class. I know it's not cheating, it's not cheating.

Dan:

Don't diminish yourself.

Charles:

It was a way of short-circuiting my anxiety, because it's like, okay, if I can go in there and I'm, you know, in the top 50% of people at this dance, then I'm going to feel so much more confident.

Dan:

Absolutely. I mean, that's what happened to me. I just did. I guess hacking would be better than cheating. Yeah, but it's not even a hack man, because that's what people do is they just take lessons over and over and over again until they're comfortable. You just happen to do it, you know, in a different way. But yeah, man, that's how people feel and that's how I've gotten more comfortable doing hustle and eventually the point of where, like last weekend, went out and I was able to teach somebody a little couple of hustle moves and to a band and I'm no instructor and I've only taken a couple of lessons, but I've taken enough of them where I feel comfortable teaching someone the basics and I had a great time and I couldn't imagine doing that just a couple of years ago, before I started taking any kind of lessons. Yeah, Like never me first of all, me not dancing on a dance floor and two teaching somebody else how to do it and then having an awesome time because I was doing it.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, the part where it's actually fun to do it. I don't. That'd be neat to get there. We'll see, maybe someday. Okay, so let's get into the fishing trip case study, because I got lots of thoughts on this one. So it opens up with the wife saying I need you to show me more love. And then the husband goes there, says Eddie, that's the husband. He thought he had done a pretty good job of showing Jen how much he loved her. Of course he thought that I mean what, husband, if you ask him, have you done a pretty good job of showing your wife that you love her? Nah, not really. I mean, everybody thinks that they're that they do a pretty good job of that. Now, that doesn't communicate to us whether he actually has or whether he hasn't.

Dan:

It doesn't tell us, you know, whether it doesn't really matter, because clearly she doesn't think so right.

Charles:

Either she doesn't think so or she's, in the moment, going through something where she's willing to verbalize that she doesn't think so, which could.

Dan:

And you also have to remember that you know the things that you've done in the past. That's not she's got these emotions and these feelings right now. That's not going to weigh, and that's something that I've learned, either through this book or some other books, was that I used to think that way. It's just like I've done all these things in a relationship. How did you forget all these things that I did for us, for you, whatever in this relationship? Yeah, and now? So how can you possibly be upset about this thing? It's got nothing to do with what's what's been done in the past. It's it's I hate to say it, but it's kind of what have you done for me lately? It's like what is my emotional state right now, type of thing. The past, really, I mean with you know, maybe with some major decisions. I could understand, you know that, maybe playing into it a little bit, but yeah, there's something off if, if in this stage, you know she or he is unhappy.

Charles:

Yeah, and that's that it's. It's tough for me to remember that because sometimes you know not too long ago I was going through some stuff and it's like I find a birthday card or a Christmas card from you know, somebody that I used to be with, and it's like I love you so much. I can't wait for Bella. And then, like three months later, we're not talking anymore because she broke up with me and it's like, wait a second, how?

Dan:

you promised. Yeah, I haven't been writing evidence right here.

Charles:

It's like well, that's the problem. It was true then, and I don't see a future for us. That's true as well when she breaks up with you. They're both true and things absolutely change. And so, anyway, in this moment, she feels like she needs the demonstration of more love and she says I need to feel like you care about me. I need to feel like I can trust you. I don't know what you get up to when you go on these fishing trips with your buddies, and that's where a reasonable guy goes okay, hold on, full stop, you don't trust me. You're questioning my loyalty. We need to have a conversation about what's leading to this, why you're feeling this way, what it is that you think I've done or not done. But he doesn't say any of those things. He just goes oh honey, I'm just going fishing. I mean, yeah, you're.

Dan:

I've been there, listen man. I've given that answer before I get it you know?

Charles:

Yeah, I guess it hasn't worked.

Dan:

Just like in this example, it hasn't worked and hasn't resolved anything.

Charles:

Yeah, that's like. You know you got your check engine light is coming on in your car. You know, you get a little piece of black electrical tape and you just cover it up so you don't see it anymore. I don't think that fixes the engine.

Dan:

That's a great analogy.

Charles:

I like that. And then she doubles down. She's like how do I know you could be doing anything? Anyway, I'm just saying I need to feel like you actually care about me. And then he volunteers I'll just cancel my fishing trip and we can spend the weekend together. How's that sound? My response is not. Yes, that sounds good. Yes, that would make me feel better. Thank you so much. It's you. Do you do that for me?

Dan:

And that's dangerous, because it sounds like it could almost be. She's flattered, but at the same time it could also be like really you would do that for me, like what's kind of like, what's wrong with you, kind of like that seems a little bit. That's not what I'm asking for here.

Charles:

Right, almost, almost, I do. But I would if you got into why you're feeling so insecure and downing my loyalty, you know, if we could really get into what your, what your issue is right now, why you don't feel loved, why you don't feel like you can trust me, and the result that we both come up with is okay. I need to spend some time with you this weekend to fix this acute, not chronic, problem in our relationship. Then maybe canceling the fishing trips, the move. But she doesn't. They don't have any of that conversation. It's just I would cancel my fishing trip for you, oh, you would do that for me. And then he picks up the phone and he cancels a trip. There was a lot more dialogue that had to happen before canceling the fishing trips. A good idea, yeah.

Dan:

I agree.

Charles:

And he doesn't do that. Okay. So five minutes later he calls his buddies, cancels a trip, and then she's like why'd you cancel the trip? I thought you wanted to spend the weekend together. You didn't have to cancel your fishing trip. What are you talking about? I said you didn't have to cancel. Are you serious? He didn't know what to say. She wanted more love and attention. Now, after giving her exactly what she asked for false she was getting all bitchy about it. No, he gave her what she thought she was asking for.

Dan:

He assumed.

Charles:

Yes, he assumed that she wanted him to do that, but she never said it.

Dan:

He just took it really literally. You know, it was kind of like you know, or well, actually not even because she didn't say I want more time. She didn't say that I wanted more love right.

Charles:

I need to feel like, yeah, I want to feel like you actually care about me and I need you to show me more love. I need to feel like you care about me. I need to feel like I can trust you.

Dan:

That's got nothing to do with even quality time, so I mean we can get into like love language and everything else like that, because maybe that's not how she feels love. Right, it might not be quality time, but for him he's like oh, I'm just going to assume she just wants to spend more time together and it definitely could not.

Charles:

It wasn't the case, right? We don't know what his behavior on these fishing trips is like. I mean, if he's, you know, disappearing for a weekend, he's never sending her a picture of the amazing fish that he caught, the great dinner he made with his friends, you know, hey, just checking in with you, wondering how the house is doing, how the kids are doing.

Dan:

Secretive yeah.

Charles:

I mean, yeah, we don't know any any of those details about he might just be really bad at his communication that could make her, you know, get worried that something's going on so right.

Dan:

So her love language could be just words of affirmation Right, right. And so now he's going well and he's he's rolling with quality time, and so it could be totally off.

Charles:

Yeah, and so the end result is the weekend arrives and she's like I want some time alone. And again, so it's not quality time, yeah. I mean part of that could be. I mean, quality time is defined by the quality of the person you're spending the time you are sure.

Charles:

And his, his inability to read the situation and give her what she was actually asking for, and then just going straight to you know, okay, I'll just like. He acted like there was a logistical fix to this problem of I'll just change my travel plans and this problem will go away, right. And so I'm going to be with him with a logistical problem. She was coming to him with a I'm feeling this way or I'm not feeling this way and I want to feel this way, and he said, okay, well, I'll just make a change on my upcoming calendar and that'll fix the problem.

Charles:

And so, again, I think you know, and the fact that can well colors her or categorizes her as being getting exactly what she asked for, I mean, like, dude, you, you wrote this, you made up the scenario and now you're mischaracterizing what happened in the scenario you made up. She didn't ask for that. The fact that she's being bitchy, it's like no, she's not being bitchy, she's reacting as someone who asked for something and and got a, a poor substitute for the things she was asking for, and she was obviously and I would say rightly annoyed and disappointed by what she got instead of what she was asking for. So I don't know what his agenda is with making up these scenarios and then miscategorizing them. Okay.

Dan:

So hold on, let me rewant, let me, let me get back in. What was the suggested fix for how he should have handled it? I forgot, uh.

Charles:

I mean it seems like his suggested fixes Don't just don't give her what she's asking for and that, oh, I mean he, he doesn't make any. He doesn't acknowledge the thing that the guy did wrong to not see what she was actually asking for, in my opinion and listen, I'm not- missing.

Dan:

So okay, so he does say here at the bottom of 200, he says uh, you know what? What these men fail to realize is that women aren't looking for for men to give them what they want. They're asking for men to give them what they need. Uh, so See, and I disagree with that.

Charles:

I think they're asking for what they want and what they need. But then when you misunderstand what they're asking for and give them what you think they want instead of what you think they need, that's where the problem lies.

Dan:

Well, I think, I think the problem really lies into the guy not knowing what what she needs and and the things that he can do or say to figure out what she needs.

Charles:

Right so he's.

Dan:

He's not dropping the ball here. Oh, he is, he is. He's not talking. He didn't say that. That's my idea. Here is the way to figure that out to give her what she needs is to find ways to talk about that is is to have conversations where you're. You're having that open dialogue and going. Okay, what would make you feel like a little bit more loved here? What you know, and instead of just assuming, I'm just going to cancel my trip.

Charles:

This the problem in this story is not that he gave. He gave his wife what she wanted instead of what she need. Correct. The problem is he gave his wife what he thought she was saying that she wanted.

Charles:

What he assumed she wanted, and what he wanted to give her Right Instead of what she needed Right. So I I don't put this on on her at all as far as I don't think she did anything wrong. This you know I'm. And again you know some, some of our, our red pill brethren out there could say this is me being, you know, the white knight or whatever. But the guy, the wife, did not ask him to cancel the trip. No, he decided to cancel the trip because he was being the nice guy that jumped to Look, let's, let's, let's break it down 100%.

Dan:

You're not being a white knight. And the thing is, if this was a business transaction, yes exactly Okay If we were in business with a client, right, and they say, hey, you know, you know I, I need to be able to move data faster from point A to point B, and you know, you give them a solution that doesn't do that. That's avoidant, right, yeah, there's a problem. And so then what would you do? Oh, you'd have the conversation with the client right, exactly like.

Charles:

Okay, yeah, I need. I need these emails to migrate in eight hours instead of 16 hours. Okay, I deleted half your data. It'll move in eight hours now, no problem better, Perfect.

Dan:

Thank you for helping me out with that analogy. Exactly right, yeah, so I didn't ask you to delete my data. I wanted the data to be moved right and it's.

Charles:

You said you had eight hours to move the data, so now I've got. I'm a perfect example, perfect example problem solve.

Dan:

hit it home with my, with my current business as well. That's great, yeah, yeah, no, exactly, and so that's really just an opportunity. You know he's identified an opportunity to. You know, slow down, dig in deeper and not make assumptions.

Charles:

Yeah, so he wrote a chapter Giving you the wrong lesson. Yeah, the lesson is not women. Don't listen to what women say they want. You need to figure out what women actually need, it's like. Or you can listen to what they want and get to the bottom of what they need, right?

Dan:

That's that's. It's a team of pros. That's that's where I feel like to be more valuable is how do you approach that Right? How do you? What are the questions that you ask? What kind of Do you have in order to figure out what each person needs and and and bring that to light? And I mean, I mean in all fairness. He could go into that in the next chapter. So, but, but, but we don't. I don't think he does.

Charles:

Let me share what he says next.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

A woman, and even the way the language. Here and again I could be reading into it. Tell me if I'm obvious. A woman might tell you she needs more love and attention. Okay, yeah, she might. She might even tell you that she wants a man who's honest and faithful. At other times she might tell you that all she wants is to feel safe and secure. There is a dripping sarcasm and skepticism to the way that he writes that.

Dan:

Like she doesn't actually he's a little bitter there. I feel, right, yeah, like nobody says all I want is to feel safe and secure, like that's. That's part of an argument at some point. Right, I feel like that's when he's heard that that's been an escalated part to the why can't you just at least you know, all I need is, you know, like she's like at her wit's end and go. I just need to feel safe and secure, like I'll Fuck everything else because everything else is so shitty, whatever. Just just give me at least this kind of thing like clinging on to those words from somebody already Disappointed with what they've got exactly you know exactly.

Charles:

Yeah, but yeah. So the idea is I mean, the way it reads to me is like a woman might say she wants these things, but now I'm going to tell you you don't need to be those things. What you need to be is these other things that I'm about to tell you. Instead.

Charles:

That feels like the direction that is going in and so it's important all these situations don't focus on what a woman says she wants, but instead focus on what she needs. And again, I'm supposed to rely on my shitty upbringing and the media that I've consumed and my own internal Testosterone driven impulses to decide what a woman needs, instead of what she's telling me she wants. It's like no, it's. It's got to be a conversation. You've got to have it. Again, I'm and I agree. Yeah, you know, don't spend all your time in the middle of a conversation about the relationship. But when a woman comes to you and says I don't feel like you love me, I don't feel like you care about me, I don't feel like I can trust you, you can't just say well, you know, candle says I shouldn't have conversations about relationships.

Dan:

Look, man, every time I engage with a client, for it. Let's go back to my email migration thing. Every time I engage with a client, guess what they fill out a questionnaire.

Charles:

Right right.

Dan:

So I understand, oh, what they need, yes, and what they want, yes, and. But we don't do that in relationships. You know it's a little bit weird, but why not like let's, you know, spend some time and and go through some of the the questions that make us feel uncomfortable and, uh, get on the same page if possible?

Charles:

Okay, here's. Here's something I think we can. We can dig a diamond out of this piece of crap that I'm about to read. There's going out of your way to be true, honest and faithful, make a woman want you more? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding no. Here's what I want to focus on Mm-hmm, the going out of your way part. Yeah, okay, if you have to go against your own wishes, needs, desires and instincts To be true, honest and faithful, then you've got some internal work that you need to do. And, yes, pretending to be those things Going out of your way to put on a performance that makes it look like you're true, honest and faithful Is not going to raise a woman's attraction for you, I mean anytime you put on a performance, because people then don't know who you are right and and so the the going out of your way part is is what I can say Okay.

Charles:

Maybe that makes this part of it legit, if, if you're a man who is true, honest and faithful and that comes across with your actions on a regular basis.

Dan:

She's not going to be questioning.

Charles:

Yes, then, then I think that will raise attraction.

Dan:

Yeah, I agree.

Charles:

If, if you don't use your words to convince someone that you're true, honest and faithful, but you just have a life where people can look at it and say, yeah, that's, those are some of his core values, then you know, I I don't know if you would disagree with that or not, but I would say that does build attraction.

Charles:

Yeah, and that's one of the things that Gottman said in that, in that one book that we read. Which is the number one trait that attracts women is trustworthiness. Be who you say you are all the time, and women will be attracted to that. Listen, man, I'm not gonna.

Dan:

I'll even say as a guy, in terms of friendships and relationships, 100 as far as people. I mean, that's. That's one of the things that we just talked about, literally, about a call I'm having, I'm gonna have this afternoon, about trustworthiness and and If you are doing what you said you're gonna do, when you say you're gonna do it and you're trustworthy, that's a lot more attractive and In terms of any type of relationship, in terms of trust, yeah, but especially men and women for sure.

Charles:

Yeah. And so when he says stuff like you know, giving a woman what she wants is Is not going to make you more attractive to her, it's like, yes, that's true in certain circumstances, when, when you're giving a woman what she wants and it's not something you want to give or you're capable of giving, but you decide, okay, I need to go through the performance and giving her.

Dan:

I need to be a different person. I am now changing who I am fundamentally and what people think of me in order to do those things. Yeah, that's not attractive. Yeah, that's not attractive.

Charles:

Yeah, my girlfriend's favorite color is a is green, so she wants me to always wear a green shirt whenever we go out. I hate green shirts, but I want her to like me, so she's asking me to wear a green shirt, so I'll just wear a green shirt all the time. I mean dude, I'm not going to make you more attractive to her and it's not going to make you like yourself anymore it's. If that's what he's talking about, I agree with him.

Charles:

Yeah it doesn't seem like he's just limiting it to those kinds of things right now, it was a little bit bigger here.

Charles:

Yeah, so that's. That's where I, that's my bitch and moan for this particular chapter that we're going through, where it's just like I, I don't know man, I I like, like, like we said in the last episode, I'm or maybe every episode since we were recorded I'm a disagreeable person and I'm always looking to get into okay, what is this person trying to sell me on? Or tell me that is an? Is it internally consistent with what else they're telling me? And that's that's the thing that it really raises the hairs on the back of my neck.

Charles:

It's like, okay, if you, if you're giving me this book of Mostly partially good advice and then you start telling me stuff that goes against it, because it's just Too nuanced or too difficult to to get into the weeds of what I should actually be hearing from you, then yeah, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a little disappointed that you're taking shortcuts either from an editorial or a logical Perspective, because you're not willing to invest the time or you feel like your audience is too dumb to get it, or whatever. And and these last two chapters where it's like it's just a very you know, don't, don't give a woman what she's asking for.

Dan:

Just give her what you know she needs but then doesn't tell you how to find out what she needs.

Charles:

That's my problem with this chapter. I think it's right. Just listen to me. I mean, although he doesn't really Oof, I mean that.

Dan:

I mean the answer clear to me. It's not clear.

Charles:

It's her can't be simple enough to what a woman really needs Is a guy who doesn't do what she wants. It's like that.

Dan:

That's yeah, like the simplistic and not true answer that he's giving you, where it's like I'll do what a woman wants, when the choice that is Healthy and beneficial to me and beneficial to her and what I feel like doing in my prep, when all those things match up, then I will find myself in a position where I'm giving a woman exactly what she's asking for, or exactly what she wants and you know, here's the other thing to think about on this level is, you know, maybe the scary part here is that if you get into a conversation about what she really needs to feel, the way she needs to feel, uh, and it doesn't line up with your core values, then maybe you guys aren't a good fit, maybe the relationship needs to end, you know, and that sometimes can be really really scary and Maybe both people are Dancing around it because on some level, subconsciously, you both know You're asking and need different things and want different things.

Dan:

And by bringing it up You're both gonna find out hey, we're not a good fit. And I think a lot of people go through relationships and I know I've gone through relationships where you know for too long I've been in relationships for too long because on some level we both knew we're not exactly a you know good fit, but you know other things are comfortable enough to kind of keep going along and and that the thought of changing and ending is is Is much more uncomfortable than it is staying status quo yeah, fairer be about that in a dating playbook when you know he's with this girl and he's kind of realizing that they shouldn't be together.

Charles:

But the two things he cites for the reasons to stay together is I don't want to hurt her and I also don't want to have to go through the loneliness and effort to find somebody new. Oh yeah, big, those two. Those are two big factors that keep, keep men in particular, you know, in relationships longer than they, than they ought to be. And you know the the old adage of higher slow fire fast is Is true in business and in relationships where you know you should go very slow getting into relationships with people, professional or personal, and Go pretty quick when it comes to getting out of them.

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Charles:

Yeah, that's. That's a lesson that I have yet to learn as well. So there's one other thing I want to mention in this, in this chapter, that confused me. We're at about 53 minutes, so after after I get your take on this, we can stop. But I Don't understand where he's going with this one and maybe you can make sense out of it. So it's just couple sentences, but listen to it. If a woman tells you that she's changed her mind about the relationship and now just wants to be friends, it's tempting to take the woman's word at face value and believe what she says as opposed to what like. No, I don't believe that. You want to just be friends. I'm not letting you break up with me. We're still boyfriend, girlfriend. Well, like, what are you supposed to do with that knowledge? Yeah, I mean, what is it that he's he's advocating here? I don't understand.

Dan:

So it could be. One of these things is what she says, and what she means or feels is something different. So it could just be her way of saying I'm unhappy with our relationship. So you know, I I don't want to continue doing this, and so, at least but it was what's she being?

Charles:

either dishonest or or what?

Dan:

is what is not a sleeping.

Charles:

I don't think being dishonest, either dishonest or mistaken if you can't believe that so is it that she doesn't really want to be friends? She just wants to break up and never talk to you again? Or is it she doesn't want to break up at all, or or could?

Dan:

be or or could be. This is just her way of expressing there's a problem in the relationship, in the romantic relationship, and and bring, and and it needs. Maybe maybe here and I'm assuming is maybe she's tried to communicate that in other ways that are more subtle, that the guy just hasn't picked up on and he hasn't reacted and or done anything about. So now she's kind of she's elevating it to like kind of her wits end and it's like all right. Well, if, if you're not gonna do something I mean I've been banging on the door, you're not gonna answer it. All right, this is it, I'm all right, we're just gonna be friends at this point because I'm I don't know what else to do right, so, but that how?

Charles:

how is he saying we should react to that? By oh?

Dan:

I don't know what did.

Charles:

What did he doesn't he doesn't go Into a, he just says maybe she says she wants to be friends, but it's not really true. Oh and it's like every other good book you and I have read on dating.

Charles:

Well, you can't say that it's not really true if a girl, if a girl plays the I want to break up card, the only move you have is to say, all right, well, that disappoints me, I don't want to break up. But Okay, and then you take a call, you take a few steps back and let her have her break up right.

Dan:

So I wouldn't. So if I was, if I thought things were good or if I didn't want to break up, that's where I would at least have the conversation and and let's dig into this a little bit what you know, what is it? And maybe she's open to having that conversation, maybe she's not. That what she, what he says, there is it's impossible to say really, without having some follow-up questions Is that really what she wants? Is it, you know, are things over, um, or is that just?

Dan:

I mean, I would say my advice is that just a way of bringing up a conversation? Because finally, finally grabbing your attention, because you weren't paying attention?

Charles:

It could be, but like we've talked about you know, yeah, you don't know when you get broken up with there are.

Charles:

There are two possible things. You're going to want as the as the dumpy in a relationship. You're either going to want to heal and move on from the relationship or you're going to want to get your partner back. And regardless of what you want, there's a pretty Well prescribed set of behaviors for what you do and they're the exact same thing. So, no matter what result you want, you behave a certain way and it can lead to either of those things. And there are other behaviors, like, you know, continuing to call her, show up where she works, trying to run into her. You know, on the weekends, where you know she likes to hang out, all of those things will get in the way of both your healing and your ability to get her back. Where there are other things, like focusing on your own mental and physical health and leaving her alone, and, you know, spending more time with your friends and family and getting encouragement from them. There, those things will help you, no matter whether your goal is to get back with her or to just heal from the, from the breakup.

Charles:

Here's my advice when a woman tells that you're romantic with, tells you that she wants to be friends. 10 out of 10 times believe her, yeah, yeah, and either decide, okay, now we are only platonic friends and I no longer see you as a, as a romantic partner, and I probably never will again, or I don't really want to be your friend, so I'm going to go ahead and exit your life. And best of luck to you. I would say you, you always take her at her word when she says she wants to be friend, right?

Dan:

What I'm saying is, you could be missing out on some. If you just walk away from that, though, and and not have a conversation about why You're, walking away from a woman who plays the let's be friends card when she doesn't mean it.

Dan:

Right, you're better off anyway correct, however, but but at the same time, you might have not realized you are acting or behaving in a certain way that you just weren't aware of. That she picked up on and there could be some valuable information for your own self growth. Not necessarily to stay to fix that and stay with her, but maybe there's something that you know she could say well, you know what you. You said you wanted to do all of these things. Yeah, you never ended up doing them. Um, I, you know.

Dan:

Uh, you know you promised we would do this or we would do that, or you know you talked about this and you didn't do it. So, you know, maybe that's an, that's an opportunity for some some insightful work to think about. Okay, maybe I need to be a little bit more aware of that. I just feel like if, if somebody that you've spent a long time with has gotten to that point and is willing to have that conversation with you, could be some really valuable information to help you become better For yourself and potentially, for that next part person not necessarily fix yourself because you want to get that other person back you might, you know you might be right about that.

Charles:

I I tend to Take a little bit more extreme of a reaction where it's like All great conversations to have Before the breakup conversation. Once, once you open the seal on the breakup conversation, then we're we're no longer. We're no longer in a team where we address my issues, your issues or our issues.

Dan:

I absolutely agree and I am making an assumption here that, uh, none of those things happened before this and this was you know what I'm saying. So it was kind of like, yeah, I was kind of zoned out my own world and you know, all the, all the little cries for help about the relationship, I ignored. And my assumption here's right and and my assumption here is that this is the last kind of desperate cry for help and at that point, though she may it, she might be totally checked out regardless, you know.

Charles:

So, again, we're you know, yeah, for me, the this relationship is over. Let's be friends is a cry for help. Like setting my car on fire is a cry for help. It's like yeah, I don't. I don't categorize this as a cry for help anymore. I categorize this as a you and I. We used to be a thing and now we're not a thing anymore because you don't get to. You don't get to pull the trigger on the. Let's break up Mm-hmm and and expect anything yeah, good as a couple to happen after that.

Dan:

So at a minimum, then I would at least ask say hey, you know, did you try to address? You know I understand you aren't happy with what's you know, right, right now.

Charles:

We're in debrief mode right yet. Yeah, help me understand. Did I miss the signal? The mission's over. Now we're gonna look back at the mission and have a quick conversation.

Dan:

And then I would. I would love to be like, hey, did I miss? Did you try to talk to me about any of this stuff beforehand? Did I miss the signals that you were sending me, that were completely obvious to you, that just like went over my head because you know we're? Sometimes guys are. You know we miss a lot of that stuff. You know a lot of the communication we're not. We're not as right, fine tuned as as a woman is that?

Charles:

could? That could lead to a vastly Unsatisfying conversation of yes, yes, I did, okay, when um, I don't remember the details, but I believe me, I did it could be unsatisfying, right, I'm willing to roll that dice, though.

Dan:

I get it, yeah. Yeah, you could just make things worse. You could be more upset. I get it Absolutely. It's happened before. But when I'm coming from is I want to be better, you know, and and and not have this happen again. So, yeah, let's do that. Debrief.

Charles:

Okay, all right, I think, uh, we could, we can stop there. I yeah, look, I yeah. I like the part of this book a lot more where he says you should probably wear red shirts, because ladies like red shirts.

Dan:

Where I mean, if you think about it, I mean yeah.

Charles:

Tell me how we should wear cologne more when I leave the house. Yeah, I don't have any problem with those kinds of suggestions, but when it gets in like this look, it's like I spent too much time in therapy and too much time in relationships and seeing what works and what doesn't work. And it's like these, these little platitudes that he throws out for clueless men. It's like okay, hold on, let's dig a little deeper. Yeah.

Dan:

So, yeah, it gives us something to talk about on the podcast exactly, and we're.

Charles:

Yeah, I like that. We we nailed two chapters in one episode this time. Let's keep that up. Maybe we'll go for three next time. Whoa, slow down, killer. Then, uh, yeah, get get through this book and move on to the next one, which, yeah, that's. That's probably conversation we need to have yeah, what's gonna be the next book?

Charles:

Right, yeah, not not another. Uh, not another dating relationship. Find your ideal woman book? For sure we need to. I don't. I don't want to go deep into philosophy on the next one, but I also don't want to do another. All right, here's how to get ladies book, because I I am burned out on those they will do some comic strips. We'll see about that. Yeah, exactly, we'll. Uh, we'll get a, we'll get a far side calendar just through them.

Dan:

You know what it might be interesting. I have like every Calvin and Hobbes Uh cartoon book uh, from from high school and junior high because I was such a fan or whatever. So so some of that stuff, you know it does have some philosophy behind it and some some interesting concepts and Again, I gotta reread it and make sure I'm remembering that correctly.

Charles:

See if I just see you when you were dumb and young, yeah, yeah.

Dan:

Yeah. So now that I'm dumb and old, it may not, it may not be, it might not be any better. So we'll see.

Charles:

Yeah, I don't know. We'll definitely do something a little bit that I consider to be lighter and and that we'll get through faster. I do have that book, uh, I got on amazon or ebay a while ago self care for men, that uh oh, that might be good.

Charles:

Yeah, it's got some pretty good stuff on mental and physical Uh self care that we might. We might be able to get that one pretty good. Yeah, I might like that. At some point he mentions crystals, which turned me off a little bit, but uh, nobody's perfect Exactly. All right, dan, we'll stop there for today. Uh right, sir, I will uh continue Railing on this book with you for another hour or two and after we stop recording. All right, have a good one. All right, bye.

Plans and Schedule for Future Trips
Building Relationships, Understanding Masculine Traits
Understanding Communication and Relationship Dynamics
Get Uncomfortable for Personal Growth
Miscommunication and Unmet Expectations
Understanding Women's Needs vs. Wants
Building Trust and Attraction in Relationships
Relationships
Breakup Conversation and Future Book Choices
Discussion on Self-Care Book for Men