Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

How NOT To Show Up In Your Relationship

October 05, 2023 Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles & Dan Episode 100
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
How NOT To Show Up In Your Relationship
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In our 100th episode, we continue to offer review and analysis on "Atomic Attraction" and attempt to clarify some of the terms and ideas the author employs when it comes to maintaining attraction in relationships.

00:01 Recent Updates and Weight Loss Progress
12:09 Check-in and Dogs in Supermarkets
16:12 Codependence, Fear, and Authenticity
21:59 Emotional Dynamics in Relationships
32:11 Navigating and Managing Emotions
42:50 The Importance of Differences
48:45 Creating Positive Emotional Tension
55:19 Finding a Healthy Balance

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Dan:

Good afternoon, Charles. How are you?

Charles:

Good afternoon, dan. How are you Better now? Okay, great, yeah, so what's new?

Dan:

What's new? Let's see. Well, I just want to throw a shout out to my buddy, Mike, who has been listening to us for a while now, and I've known him since junior high. Dan, if we call every listener we'll be here for two minutes. Two minutes well spent. Okay, you're right. So, first of all, happy birthday Mike and I just got off the phone with him a couple days ago and he won his bowling tournament. So yeah, he was super excited about that. Did I meet Mike in Disney? No, no, that was my buddy Jason. So yeah, mike is the one who was kind of. We consulted for the video studio oh thank you. Yeah, yeah. So, mike, congratulations and thanks for listening and being a fan. We appreciate it for sure, so it was great to catch up with him.

Charles:

Okay, what else are you going on? What else do I got? You were in New Jersey, I was in New Jersey.

Dan:

Yep, I was in New Jersey, got to see my buddy's. Ramsey and Kareem and a couple of other fraternity brothers Went to Rutgers' game where they actually won Whoa, yeah, kind of crazy. And the last time I went to Rutgers' game it was the same coach, greg Siano. So that was many moons ago and I had really not been following them much. And you know, siano went off and did other things. He came back and things are looking pretty good. But we've got Michigan next week in Michigan. So that's going to be a problem. I believe it will be, but it was a great time. Thanks to Ramsey and Kareem for awesome tailgate. And yeah, bob and Pete also. They cooked up a mean steak and sausage and ribs and everything. And yeah, they do it every week and it's a thankless job. So work involved for them that they a lot of times people kind of show up and just throw some cash and not actually do some work and that makes things difficult. But they've been holding it down. I mean it's like graduated. So yeah, graduated in 98, so do the math. They've been doing it for years. So had a great time in New Jersey doing that and had a nice little dinner with the family as well on Sunday night, nice. Yeah, how about you? What would you get up to?

Charles:

I was up in New York City doing some touristing. I visited the Feast of San Gennaro in little Italy.

Dan:

Oh, and what did we feast on?

Charles:

Mostly desserts. Oh yeah, I had the my favorite, possibly favorite dessert anywhere ever, which is tough to say because Disney comes out with a lot of great desserts that I enjoy a lot, but the pistachio cheesecake at Canole King is pretty amazing.

Dan:

Was that in Canole form?

Charles:

No, it was just. It's an actual cheesecake, okay, and they're the Canole King. But you know, because pistachio cheesecake king would be cheesecake, yeah, cheesecake. I thought it was a cheesecake. Pistachio cheesecake king would be too big for the sign, so they just go by Canole King. But they make other amazing desserts. And I did have a Canole. I had a hazelnut Canole with my pistachio cheesecake, yeah, and I met Renata there for a meal and she ate hardly any of the dessert and I had to eat all of it pretty much on my own. And then I also had a Italian panini with like ham and prosciutto and black olives and lettuce and the oil and vinegar.

Dan:

So I need to ask I know you do a lot of or have a lot of experience at Cheesecake Factory have they ever done a pistachio cheesecake?

Charles:

Not to my knowledge, I've never had one there, okay.

Dan:

So I was curious. If there's any sort of comparison you could make, it would probably be pretty.

Charles:

I mean they make pretty much the best version of every cheesecake they've made there. That I've had has been the best version of that cheesecake. I was a big fan of their Dutch Apple cheesecake. That's really good. Oh yeah, where it's like a Dutch Apple pie plus cheesecake. Around this time of year they have or at least have had in the past a combination of pumpkin pie, cheesecake and pecan pie all in one dessert where it's like one layer of pecan pie at the bottom and then pumpkin pie cheesecake on top of that.

Dan:

Who are these evil geniuses coming up with this Unbelievable Wow?

Charles:

The big choice at Thanksgiving is often do I get the pecan pie or do I get the pumpkin pie? And so they've put it together into one dessert and it tastes amazing.

Dan:

They are just solving the problems of the world. I mean, these decisions are difficult.

Charles:

Let's see what else do I love at Cheesecake Factory. I had a wild blueberry white chocolate cheesecake a few years ago. That was amazing. Wow, they're banana cream pie cheesecake, all right.

Dan:

Back to San Gennaro. Sorry, I could go for an hour. I needed to cut it off there before we started naming all the cheesecakes.

Charles:

It would end up with me at Cheesecake Factory tonight. That's where the out road leads, which I've been since New York. I've been very compliant on my meeting plan to try to make up for it. Good for you. As always, it's like a few days and the results just come right back. I mean, you know, when you eat all that bad food and retain all that water, it really only takes three or four days of doing the right thing for literally pounds Like. I've probably lost half a dozen pounds since I was up in New York.

Dan:

Fantastic, that's awesome.

Charles:

It just falls off when you you know I wish I could lose weight at that rate all the time. But it's like five days from now, after I've been eating good for five days, then I'll be back to fighting for every single ounce on my way down to my goal. But for right now things are going real easy and I like that.

Dan:

How close are you to your?

Charles:

goal. I reckon I'm about eight or nine pounds away. Okay, yeah, I think eight or nine pounds, and then I'll be able to switch to maintenance mode.

Dan:

We'll see.

Charles:

I mean, my goal is more visual than it is a number on the scale, right, yeah, but I'm estimating that for me at five, eight, I think one fifty five is going to be where I need to go, okay, and right now I'm in the neighborhood of one sixty three.

Dan:

All right yeah.

Charles:

So we'll see how it goes. I'm traveling again this weekend. I'm going to check out some sites and some zoos up in the let's see. What do you call Minnesota? What region is that? Is that the Midwest? I guess it would be Midwest. Yeah, I'm going to go to Minneapolis and going to bring Keto chat with me and a blender bottle with me and try to stick to the plan, because I've noticed that going on vacation is definitely an issue for me.

Dan:

Absolutely.

Charles:

I was texting with Rob today and he's like nobody eats lettuce on vacation. He's right.

Dan:

Absolutely no Right, and that's why. That's why it is to not go on vacation every week though that's where he gets into trouble. That's where. That's where you're making the mistake. Right?

Charles:

Is going on vacation every week right, yeah, and I've got three weekends here where I am hopping on a plane, although to be fair. So this weekend's Minnesota, next weekend I'm going back up to New York City for the express purpose of doing a 30 mile, 12 hour hike. So I'm not quite going to be at the risk of eating a bunch of bad food, right? And you know, next weekend, because I find New York on Saturday morning, checking in my hotel Saturday afternoon, have to be on the course at 6am Sunday morning, walk till 6pm Sunday night and then get on a plane Monday night back to Florida. Okay, so you're not even have a lot of time. There will be some time for mistakes to be made, but not a ton of time. I don't think I'm going to pack my my shakes on that trip. I think I'm just going to try to stick to my hard boiled eggs and my diner breakfast you know good omelets and protein boxes from Starbucks, and then I will indulge in some trail mix on the 30 mile hike and feel good about it.

Dan:

It'll burn that right off.

Charles:

So I would think so, yeah, the bag of trail mix is 1500 calories, though.

Dan:

That's not bad, I mean, but you're going to be burning probably close to that, if not more.

Charles:

I burn my hike. Yeah, I burn. No, I'll burn way more than that. Cause, when I go to Disney and I do I do a really long walk on purpose, at least according to my Apple watch, two and a half, three hours is good for 500 calories, yeah, and I'll be doing 12 hours, Wow. So so, yeah, that's going to be a that would that could be a 6000 calorie burn, just just that workout.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

So Not counting my base metabolic rate and all that stuff.

Dan:

Yeah, you can. You don't have to pack your guilt with you. You can leave that one at home.

Charles:

I will leave that at home. I've got my new fanny pack today for the hike Right yeah, okay, it's fancy, it's real fancy. I'm going to have a hard time keeping the ladies away.

Dan:

Looks like you can put a lot of junk in that trunk.

Charles:

Absolutely. Yeah, it's like you know, like that picture of the rock where he's wearing the one of the is that really the nineties picture where he's got like the black?

Dan:

one.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that, but way cooler. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay Okay. It's got it bright blue with like flames on it. Oh yeah, wow.

Dan:

Yeah, and it help you. I hope so that course, that flames back right. Okay, jetpack jet yes.

Charles:

Everyone does were right around the corner back in the 80s where we thought any day now we're going to get our jet packs Never material hoverboards to.

Dan:

I mean that. That took a while.

Charles:

Yeah, but now the other boards that they sell have wheels on them. Those aren't what they had back to the future. Oh, no, no, no 2015, right, that's when he traveled to.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

Yeah.

Dan:

Got it right? Yeah, it was 2015.

Charles:

He went. In the first one he went from 85 back 30 years to 55, and in second one he went for 30 years to 2015. That's nuts. Oh yeah, when you, when you look at the memes about if back to the future happened today, marty would go back to the year 1993.

Dan:

That's the year I graduated high school. Man Wow.

Charles:

Yeah, a couple years before me, but yeah, 1993, like I was a person walking around having thoughts and opinions.

Dan:

Oh, I was driving a car.

Charles:

That's it.

Dan:

And it was not like a George Jetson car, which no yeah.

Charles:

No, we've definitely gotten screwed on that deal. I was into one podcast host where he's like you know, we, our technology has not gone in the direction anybody expected it to, where it's. Basically, life now is like Star Trek, but only when it comes to computers. Everything else is pretty much the same as it's been for the last 50 years, except for our computers. Our computers now are more sophisticated than they had on Star Trek the next generation.

Dan:

Right.

Charles:

But everything else is pretty much the same as it was in the 60s Interesting.

Dan:

Kind of got that wrong yeah.

Charles:

Yeah, other than flat screen TVs. But that falls in the category of that's been driven by computers, right, everything that's been driven by computers and silicone chips and microprocessors is doing great. Everything else. It still takes the same amount of time to fly to LA now as it did in 1959.

Dan:

Yeah, that's interesting. Why haven't we gotten, yeah, I guess maybe just the sonic booms, right? That's? That's the issue, right, for we haven't solved that problem with because we had the supersonic jets and, yeah, concorde, and I thought what happened was it's just it was just too noisy.

Charles:

It was noisy, that was part of it, and I was reading about the Concorde. Actually, on the flight home this this last weekend they had a hard time selling enough seats because there weren't that many people that were willing to pay that much of a premium to go from London to New York that quickly. So that was part of it. Oh fuel consumption was a big deal. I mean, it went through, you know, airline jet fuel. Really excuse me really quick, but yeah, I guess they, they just. And yeah, sonic booms are a factor too, although I would think that, like coastal airports, yeah, they might figure out a way to, to route it so that the booms happen and over the ocean instead of right. And you know, a lot of people in the United States live on either the eastern seaboard or the or the west coast.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

So, yeah, it is disappointing, though I mean I was telling you the other day I was on a united flight. I was complaining at first because the check-in process when you fly super duper cheap steerage economy, like I do, you have to talk to a real person before you get on the plane, which blows my mind. I have to talk to a human being. I can't just check it on my app.

Dan:

You'd think there'd be an upcharge.

Charles:

It would be opposite, yeah. Because, that for years you have to tell her at the bank, you have to pay extra.

Dan:

The same thing. I remember like I think it was like Delta or JetBlue was ever if you needed to talk to somebody on the phone, they would charge you $25 to change your flight reservation.

Charles:

Yeah, or if you had to talk to them at the airport.

Dan:

Yeah right, and you had to like make the case. Your website's not working. I need to talk to somebody, and that was yeah.

Charles:

Yeah, but on united, if you are flying this, if you buy the cheapest ticket and you don't have a bag to check, so you're not paying to carry on and you're not paying to check, you're just saying, hey, I got a small backpack, I'll throw it in the seat in front of me. You've got to meet with a united staff member who looks at your backpack and makes sure that it's small enough to go into the seat.

Dan:

They don't trust you.

Charles:

They do not, no, they don't trust you. And I'm sure there's a reason. I'm sure people are. Oh oh. I see people try to sneak up on personal items that are freaking huge double bags. But and frontier got in trouble because they pay their gate agents a bounty. So if you catch somebody with a bag that's too big and they have to pay $50 to change it from a personal item to a carry on, the gate agent gets $10 of that. So now all the gate agents you know have their reading glasses on looking for people trying to cheat.

Dan:

And they got in trouble for that. Why are they getting trouble for that PR? I mean, it's basically yeah, you're you're, you're, you're putting up for forcing rules.

Charles:

Yes, yeah, we frown on that in a society, clearly you just tell me about that with the senator. Yeah, I certainly frown on rules when people try to apply them to me, so I get where folks are coming from.

Dan:

Yeah, but I mean I, mean no. It would be different if it was like hidden, you know and surprise. I do like here's a rule.

Charles:

I have seen a lot of signs in grocery stores now that they're starting to deal with dogs in grocery stores because, ok, a lot of people were just bringing their like service animals are OK. Sure A lot of people are like oh well, dogs are allowed, so I'm bringing my dog. And people would just bring their pet dogs and didn't know how to act, didn't know how to behave.

Dan:

A lot of barking, a lot of pooping and peeing in the aisles and well, I mean, you know that's always been the way it is that like petco and stuff like that, that's not a problem. But that's true. I didn't. I haven't seen this in actual, like real supermarkets.

Charles:

It's mostly people with tiny dogs that I've seen in supermarkets, like like the kind that you could fit in a purse or a poop in the purse, open up the change pouch and just let them take a dump in there. There's little things you know, I still don't want. I mean, when a dog gets that small it's, it's basically vermin, it's basically a pest. As far as I'm concerned, I don't like big dogs, and so when I see people with tiny dogs yeah, does I have a bubonic plague? I don't like it.

Dan:

They tend to be. They tend to be a little bit aggressive, a little bit mean from from my experience. So it's not, they're not like a very welcoming type of Well, yeah, because everything could kill them, right? I would be nervous too Right it just, it just spreads anxiety. You see, this thing like shaking, shaking and screaming at you, know, and that's. I don't need that. I got enough of that to deal with.

Charles:

One exception has been Jack Russell's. Everybody I know with the Jack Russell. Oh yeah, like big dogs.

Dan:

OK, yeah. But my dad had a Jack Russell for a while. Did it not act? It did, but he didn't carry it in his purse. Ok, that's good, yeah, but he was, he had a little attitude, for sure You're dad or the dog. Yes.

Charles:

Fair enough.

Dan:

Love you dad.

Charles:

All right, so let's let's get into the material here. We are 16 minutes in, so I guess it's time to talk about this book.

Dan:

Let's talk about it.

Charles:

So this is this is timely because I read a meditation today in one of the one of the books I try to read on a daily basis. Talks about codependence or, as we most often refer to it on this podcast, is the nice guy syndrome. Yeah, those are pretty much the same thing Talked about spontaneity and how people who had struggled codependence or struggled with the nice guy syndrome they're so concerned about controlling the reactions to what they say and do that they don't feel the freedom to just be spontaneous. Have fun, say what pops into their mind. Blurt, as Dr Robert Glover says, you know, just you know. When you're interacting with people and a funny thought comes to mind, just say it and see what happens. Wrote out there, yeah, out there. And in this chapter is called Don't Play it Safe. The quote is a ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for and the real downside to it that, as men, we don't often consider is playing it safe. Trying to, you know, thinking, you know, ok, I better, I better not tell that joke, I better not make that reference, I better not step on her toes because you're worried about a girl not liking you is what makes you boring, and boring is often the worst thing you can do when it comes to building attraction. I mean, even being a jerk in many cases is a better option than being boring, because if you're boring, you're not interesting.

Dan:

Yeah, and I mean the other thing that the way I'm I was taking it is not just not just that you would be boring, but I think more that you're going to be something that you're not like. If you want to say or do something and you don't because you're concerned about somebody else's reaction, you're kind of hiding and changing who you are a little bit at on some level, and then you start to become a little bit an unknown quantity and people start to go, well, wait a minute, like who, who is this person? Yeah, and then you start I feel like that, like a lot of things in life, tends to lead to a habit where you might start to feel comfortable changing the way you're behaving based on the situation and other people's reactions. And now this little one off issue or incident is turned into a habit and now you're really kind of masking who you are and then people see different sides of you and pieces of you. Oh, I thought he was kind of like this. Well, no, he's acting like this now, and that then builds a little bit of like well, I think anxiety and untrustworthiness, if that's even a word from other people, and that's also part of the nice guy syndrome too.

Charles:

Right, Well, yeah. So I was going to say you, if you, if you do that long enough and you decide, you decide it's kind of working good for me for long enough, then yeah, that becomes who you are, you. You become that chameleon who just you know does and says what he thinks he needs to do and say in every situation, and and that that does great on people. People, people lose enthusiasm for that pretty quickly. Yeah.

Dan:

And I know why people do it, and I know why I used to do it is because you feel like you're going to get ostracized from the tribe you're going to. Our primitive brain has some anxiety, thinking hey, if I don't make sure everybody likes me, then I could be kicked out of the tribe and I'm not going to survive out in the wilderness on my own. I need to be part of this group, I need in, and it's difficult but we have to use, you know, our more evolved brain to kind of temper those emotions a little bit in those feelings and go OK, look, nothing, I'm not going to die here, if you know, if I don't say the exact right thing and I'm, you know, not overly concerned about everybody else, but I, so I can see how it it's a default feeling for a lot of people to do that.

Charles:

Right, yeah, brony Brown has an amazing quote that I just saw on an Instagram clip recently, but I've heard her say it before which is the polar opposite of belonging is fitting in where belonging is when you feel like you have a real connection to the people around you and you're part of the community, you're part of the group, yeah, and is when you do what you have to do to get the feeling of belonging. Oh, that's good. Yeah, everything she says is gold. Yeah, I love her.

Dan:

She's a very appropriate here. Yes, that's that fits nicely.

Charles:

Yeah, absolutely, and so belongs nicely yeah. I think both are yeah, yeah. So the man who is is so concerned in both his professional and his personal life with I can't say or do anything that could cause anxiety or could cause people to be mad at me or cause people to think I'm not the greatest guy in the room. I mean, whenever you start adopting that mindset of what do I have to do to get X from people, it's manipulation. It's manipulation, it's dishonest and it leads you down the path of not being yourself and so not being attractive, trustworthy, you know. Consider a person of value, I mean it's. It leads to a dark road that doesn't go anywhere pleasant.

Dan:

Yeah, you know, and I think it also leads to feeling like, if I am myself, it's wrong, or I, there's something wrong with me if I'm going to express how I really feel, because I'm in the habit of squashing that and not expressing that, and I think part of our brain will go well, I'm not doing that because if I don't do that, there's going to be consequences, and when that happens, now you're on to this feeling well, who I really am isn't, isn't good, isn't something that I should be okay expressing. And now you're starting to feel like crap about yourself because you feel like there's something internally wrong with you, because you've been behaving in a way that is suppressing who you are, and so part of your brain is like, yeah, I shouldn't be talking about this or that because that's who I am and yeah, so, wow, it really can mess you up, yeah it's like no, I'm thinking about it.

Charles:

It's like having a really nice pair of shoes or boots that you've never taken the time to break in. So when you do put them on, you're like, oh, this doesn't feel right. Where the problem is not the boot, the problem is your lack of effort getting your feets and your boots to love each other. Yeah right, feets and boots Perhaps not the most beautiful metaphor I've come up with in our 90s.

Dan:

But you know what it's you and you put it out there and, blurting or not, I think it's good.

Charles:

Yes, I do not care what the 28 people listening to this podcast think of my.

Dan:

Ooh, we're up to 28. Oh, wow.

Charles:

All right, let's talk about this wacky case study in this chapter.

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Charles:

Okay, so let me set the scene here. A couple is at dinner and the man and the couple informs his I guess girlfriend, maybe just girl, that he's dating I don't know that. It lays it out, but he informs her that he is going to be buying a vintage Mustang to restore himself and he's excited about it. He's enthusiastic about it and she thinks that it's a dumb idea. And she tells him that it's a dumb idea. She asks him a lot of leading questions. That really communicates that she thinks it's a dumb idea. And eventually she says things like I can't believe I'm dating an idiot, it's stupid. And then she calls him an idiot, which right now, full stop. You don't tolerate behavior like that from other people, whether it's in public or in private. And so he decides, or doesn't decide, just as functioning on autopilot. He reacts to that by reaching across the table, knocking her glass of wine over so that it spills on the table and into her lap, and then he proclaims that's for being a bitch and he Walks out. Right, yeah, I believe he does.

Dan:

I mean, who's paying the bill here?

Charles:

No, she ran out, not him. Oh, she ran out.

Dan:

Oh, she ran out okay.

Charles:

So Rick didn't care, he was only too happy to get rid of her. Yeah, now listen. So again, my issue over and over again with his author is not just what he says, but what he chooses to include in his book. So let's look at what the. So basically, this guy does this to her she calls him names, he spills wine on her, she runs out crying. Then he basically doesn't reach out to her and she starts thinking, well, at least he wasn't weak like my ex-boyfriend, because I called him an idiot all the time and his reaction was to apologize. And so then she picks up the phone and calls Rick because she misses him, and yada, yada, yada. So, listen, both of these people should die in a house fire. I would not be friends with these people. I would not continue considering them family. If, for some unfortunate reason, I was born into one with them, I would certainly not date either of them, and I have a hard time trying to find something to glean of use from this case study at all.

Dan:

Yeah yeah. I feel like it's just a really extreme, unrealistic example of how to be opposite from a nice guy. I think that's what he's going for. And he's getting some shock value out.

Charles:

That brings up the age old question Is the opposite of a nice guy, an asshole or an integrated, grounded man? Right, I would say, this is a guy who has a similar set of mental and emotional problems as a nice guy. They're just manifesting themselves in a dramatically different way. You don't throw glasses of wine on people.

Dan:

Well, he didn't, he just spilled it.

Charles:

He pushed it over on purpose, aiming it for her. Yeah, and that's just not a way you behave. That's just not when I think of somebody who has emotions that they're in control of. I mean, if that's a thought out and deliberate thing, where you've weighed all of your options in your mind and you've decided this is the best thing to do, then you're a psycho. And if you are just doing it as a reaction, then you're a toddler. I mean, there's no Right.

Dan:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if somebody's going to call me in, my girlfriend calls me an idiot for doing something with my own money that I want to do, I break up with her. It's not, I don't want to put wine on her.

Charles:

For any reason. Pretty much Right. Unless you're joking, I say enjoy your dinner and I walk out. Right yeah, listen, it's up to her to try to make amends for it down the road, but that's. Getting up and walking away after you've been called a name is a far cry from spilling a drink on someone.

Dan:

Oh yeah, they run out crying. Oh, absolutely. Look, yeah, absolutely yeah. He definitely could have made the point of the fact. Well, you know what? Somebody who's not behaving in this nice guy tendency sticks up for himself. And here's a way of doing that is you don't tolerate somebody calling you an idiot for doing something that you want to do with your own money.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if he had said I've taken that $15,000, you asked me to invest and I bought a vintage Mustang that I'm going to fix up for you, even then I wouldn't say it's OK for her to call him an idiot, even though it's something that will dramatically affect her, but it's more, it's because that's a trigger word I mean, there's no. Why? What is the upside to calling people?

Dan:

There is not Right, it's just yeah. Both of them are acting childish in this.

Charles:

Extremely childish In this situation. And again, I shudder to think that a single person finds himself in this situation and remembers reading Atomic Attraction by Christopher Canwell and decides, oh, I'll do what Rick did. Yeah, I mean, I'm not putting all the blame on that on the author. Obviously, people are allowed to write stories and case studies about whatever nonsense they want to and everybody is responsible for their own actions. But yeah, I mean, you're putting this out there and making it seem as if he's the good guy in the story and he's not. There are no good guys in the story. Yeah, she calls him an idiot. He spills wine, he calls her a bitch. I mean, these are terrible, terrible people, and I could learn a lot more from this made up story if I wasn't so distracted by how terrible the characters are. You know what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that horse has been sufficiently beaten to death. Yeah, so he does say at one point that women need to feel their emotions, because emotions are the centerpiece of a woman's life. Listen, I'm not a guy who is going to buy any stretch of the imagination and sit here and say well, men and women, you know, biologically and culturally they're pretty much the same. There's no difference. No, there's big differences between men and women, but emotions are the centerpiece of our lives as well. Just experience them in a different way, on average, than women do. So to say that the opposite of what he's saying here would be the centerpiece of a woman's life is her emotions and the centerpiece of a man's life is his logic, in my experience that's horseshit.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, it's right. Now. I think the difference really is what he's trying to say and what we've heard a lot is that what men do with our emotions is we want to calm them down and so we want to quell any sense of anxiety or people being upset. As men, we have a tendency to want to keep like common peace, and I think the point he's trying to make is that that's not necessarily going to build attraction. If everything's calm and peaceful and there are, you know, good emotions that can be created and generated and fostered in men, women, men, women, relationships.

Charles:

To foster that attraction right and build that attraction, it doesn't always have to be these negative things you know, yes, what I would say in particular kills attraction in women is when men decide to act in a way to quell their emotions and sort of tamp them down, like whether it's emotions we consider to be positive or negative or whatever. You know anytime that you feel the woman in your life is too excitable or too upset or too angry or too, and you, instead of addressing the root cause of what's going on with her, you're like we need to take these emotions down a level. That is what kills attraction.

Dan:

Or maybe just providing a safe space for her to let her express those emotions.

Charles:

Well, that's exactly what needs to be done.

Dan:

Right, that will not kill attraction. Right, exactly.

Charles:

That's the other option. But trying to grow a fire blanket on top of the emotions and thinking that there's not going to be a price to pay. There absolutely is. I mean the more. Yes, women, women, women are feeling creatures. The more you say. I'm uncomfortable with you being a feeling creature, so I'm going to try to. I'm going to try to push that down as much as I can. That is a recipe for disaster.

Dan:

The other way. You know I've gotten in trouble with this is because I like to fix problems and I actually feel valued when I can solve problems. When there's like this, emotional, this upset, this, you know, emotional reaction in somebody, anybody, of course I want to quell that, I want to fix it, I want them to feel better, I want to solve that problem Right. And so it's very difficult for me and a lot of guys who are of that, you know, mr Fixit, problem solving type of nature it's. It's us caring and showing that we care because we want to that other person to not be upset or not feel bad, and it it definitely takes some work and effort on my part to recognize, hey, look, you know, obviously sometimes things do need to be fixed, right, there are emergencies, right, yeah, but understanding where that boundary is and what you know, what where it is, let's just you don't need to because you're feeling anxious or you're, you're sensing, you know that this person's anxious and upset.

Charles:

You don't need to fix that, Just let that, let that exist and not stick your nose in and and try to fix it Right Not not treat other people's per I mean particularly women's, but really just any other people's emotions as if, like for me, I spent a week online years ago learning how to solve Rubik's cubes Okay, cool and not that cool.

Dan:

And if I I don't know, have you seen some of these, how quick they do that, like that's cool, that's freaking impressive man.

Charles:

The speed ones are. I'm not that fast, but where I'd walk into this room right now and see a five gallon bucket full of mixed up Rubik's cubes, my, my instinct would be I've got to. I've got to get all those right. I've got to set. I've got to, I've got to set them all to the right colors.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

And that is not the approach to take to your wife or girlfriends emotions where you see, okay, I walked in and this, this, this feels, this is making me uncomfortable, this feels a little bit messy. So I need to, I need to fix this so she doesn't feel it anymore, and I think that's what he's getting at. I, I just, you know, I I have some issues with the way he chooses to say it, but if you make it your mission to stop everybody in your life from feeling any anxiety, any anger, any jealousy, I mean, make it your mission in life to be a good man and treat people well, but don't make it your mission in life to manage other people's emotions and experiences so you can feel more comfortable with your own life. Right.

Dan:

Well, or so you can feel more comfortable in that situation. So that kind of all ties back into what we've been talking about for the podcast in terms of doing your own mindfulness work, you know, bringing down your own anxiety level through exercise and journaling and and meditation and all these things so that you have the capacity to then just exist in the midst of other people having a lot of high tension and a lot of, a lot of emotion. If your anxiety level is up, you're not going to be able to have, you're not going to be able to tolerate that right, your, your, your cup then is almost full. Somebody acts, you know, puts a little bit more into that cup. It doesn't take much and all of a sudden you're upset and you need to solve it and you need to fix it because you need to feel better. But if you've done done your work and you coming and you're walking around from a com, cool, collected type of framework, you can deal with a little bit of anxiety and emotions and things from people in your environment around you and don't need to necessarily go out and fix it because you're no longer overflowing at this point in emotion, right.

Charles:

Right, and I was just thinking. You know for me a lot of the time to understand concepts like this. It helps me to think of the most extreme example and and talk it out as a thought experiment. So imagine your girlfriend's grandmother died and you go to the funeral with her and everybody's crying and, like most guys, crying probably makes you uncomfortable. Whether it's your crying or somebody else's crying, it puts you on edge, it does me. And so to fix that, to to soothe your anxiety, you just start going up to people and saying hey, could you please stop crying? It's making me very uncomfortable. What can I do to make you feel better right now? Oh yeah, that's not that would be an insane thing to do, right and that would be unhelpful it would. It would hurt them, it would hurt your relationship with them, it would hurt your close, it would destroy connection to do that. And so imagine doing that at a hundredth of that level on a daily basis, when your wife or girlfriend is just experiencing her emotions and you're very subtly trying to okay, you know, let's let's let's take this, so I don't have to see this anymore.

Dan:

That extreme example really kind of drove home something and made me think of it in another way is it's by doing that you're controlling, you are acting as, and so now you are.

Charles:

That's what the nice guy codependent does.

Dan:

He, he tries to control because yeah, and I never really thought about it like that but yeah, it's a form of trying to control the other person, and humans don't like that.

Charles:

Look, I mean I don't think I'm speaking for just myself when I say a crying woman feels like chaos to me and it makes me uncomfortable, regardless of whether there's anything I did or something somebody else did.

Dan:

We're prewired that way, of course. Yes, I mean from a baby's crying, you know, is it activates something in humans. So, yeah, we're sensitive to that.

Charles:

And I think there is something about whether it's the male brain or testosterone or whatever when most of us who live our lives at least in the traditional masculine gender role, when we're confronted with chaos, we want to bring order, and that's I mean, yeah, that's how you get Darth Vader. I mean it's, it's, it's what happens when, when, when you have not either had the upbringing or done the work or whatever, and you see, you see a situation that's chaotic, you're going to use as heavy a hand as you need to to bring order to that situation, to soothe your own anxiety over I don't know what's going to happen next. Yeah, and man, bringing that into the relationship with your wife or girlfriend is not a recipe for success.

Dan:

Is not. It's not.

Charles:

It's letter of feel or feelings. Ask her about what's going on. Try to help. You know, get to the bottom of what's causing, but get to the bottom of hearing what's said. What's causing it but not necessarily fixing it.

Dan:

Yeah, the first step is managed, being able to manage your own feelings. And that's that's. You know, a journey that I'm on is is, you know, making sure that I'm as much in a state of being able to manage my own emotions, my own feelings, because there's no chance I'm going to be able to handle extra stuff If I. If I'm not able, and I don't even have this, if I don't have the skill set of and the tools to know how to manage my emotions, then you know I'm not going to be good at using the tools to handle other emotional situations. So let's get good at practicing and using the tools and the methods to handle emotions and start there.

Charles:

Yeah, and I mean the first step in that is something we've talked about before recently and a while ago, which is you got to be able to label your feelings If you want to be able to do anything to understand them, change them, manage them. You got to be able to put a word on what's going on in your head. And we've talked about the wheels that you can buy. I mean, just go on Amazon or Etsy or wherever they sell those stickers where it's a big feelings wheel with like 60 something different feelings. I use the how we Feel app on my phone and it checks in with me a couple times a day that says how are you feeling? And then it has me pick a quadrant of like high energy, positive, high energy negative, low energy positive, low energy, negative, and then I can sort of zero in on exactly what the word is for what I'm feeling, and I hope it's helping. I think it's an important thing, it's an important skill to develop to be able to just check in and say, ok, here's, here's what I'm dealing with right now, here's how I'm feeling about it, and it really is the first step. You know, getting the great quote by Dr Glover and no more Mr Nice Guy is. Two kinds of feelings make nice guys uncomfortable. There's another people.

Dan:

Yeah, you know another, another way to practice. That is through some of the guided meditation apps that are out there, so calm, and they talk about labeling the thoughts that you're having and and also labeling some of the feelings that you might have, and they start usually with different parts of your body, so you know they might have you focus on something you're not really paying attention to, like your big toe, and you're sitting there and quiet, you got your eyes closed and they'll say, hey, you know, let's, let's zero in on. You know your, your feet and what are your, what are your toes feeling and is it tingling? You know let's. Is it painful? You know let's. You know let's label that and you know that's a good way to start.

Charles:

Yeah, I like that. We got a. We got some yard maintenance going on outside. I doubt they'll be able to hear it. I mean all right. Usually you can't hear my air conditioner, which is right over my head in my I guess we'll see if you hear the weed wacker guys, I'm worried more about the quality of my microphone than yours, but we'll see, I'm not going to worry about it. All right, yeah, I was. I was thinking that, you know, when. Bringing it back to attraction, and the next little unit that we're going to get into here is anxiety fuels attraction, and again, this could be very easily misunderstood. I mean one of his quotes here women don't respond to safety and security with happiness, loyalty and affection. In reality, when a woman feels safe and secure, she's more likely to pull away, create unnecessary drama, get bored and lose interest. I disagree in that. How would she define safety and security versus how is he defining it and how are we, the readers, defining it? Because I have a feeling that safety and security, defined in the mind of a woman, the way he's talking about it, is more like boredom and routine and monotony. Yeah, not safety and security.

Dan:

I think that's not accurate.

Charles:

Yeah, like I'm sure that you know, the women who date the guys who are the top of their field in MMA are not like oh, I'm so bored of going out with this guy who could easily protect me from any threat that occurs, I'm going to cause some unnecessary drama, I'm going to pull away from him. I, you know, again, this is completely in a vacuum, independent of what else the other guys got going on and how else he behaves. But just the idea of, oh, this guy makes me feel physically safe and protected and on board of that, it's wearing on me, right. No, that's not what happens. No, the safety and security that I think he's talking about is, you know, a guy who doesn't take any risk, doesn't do anything exciting, predictable, predictable.

Dan:

I mean, I'm always cause.

Charles:

Her texts are the same time of day, every day more because of his anxiety, not for her. I mean, it's all about when you're doing things to take anxiety and discomfort out of your own life. To an outside observer who still spends a lot of time with you, that looks a lot like boring.

Dan:

Yeah, and boring is not attractive, right. I mean think about this, you know, as kids if we were told what we're getting for Christmas, right, like how exciting would Christmas Eve actually be?

Charles:

As great as it, as great as the thing we receive might be, it's still not going to feel the same as being surprised by something not quite as great.

Dan:

Santa doesn't send a letter back and go oh okay, here are the things you're getting. You know like you know, right. And so I think, yeah, the most fun things and the most enjoyment we get out of are things that are unknown, and that doesn't mean that it is not safe or secure you can. You can do things that are unknown and not feel like you are at risk of your safety or security, right.

Charles:

Yeah, and I think you know it comes down to, don't? You know the guy who is at his girls back in call all the time? She knows she always gets to pick when they eat, where they eat, how, how they eat. He's always available. If you know she needs him to come over and you know, take a look at the toilet that keeps running or whatever, and he's it's. It's. I'm not saying say no to those things and make yourself unavailable as some game, so that she doesn't take you for granted and feel that you're too safe and boring. What I'm saying is have a life where you're focusing on your own important stuff, that you're not constantly barraging her with your availability and the fact that you have nothing else going on in your life except being her boyfriend. Right.

Dan:

And by just agreeing with whatever she, she's suggesting, you are then basically becoming her, you are not becoming your, one of your redundant. That's a great point, yeah, yeah, because now it's why. Why does she need you there? You're just, you're just a pain in the ass to bring along. If she, if she's the one coming up with the ideas for this vacation, or this meal, or this date or whatever, I mean, yeah, I mean maybe you're there to keep her company, but if you're not offering anything of value in terms of coming up with your own ideas once in a while, or a difference of opinion once in a while, and you, like, you're living together, you're spending, you know, almost every day together, at what point then, is there any type of difference? You know, I mean, there's no, there's no comparison, there's nothing to differentiate.

Charles:

Yeah, exactly, north Pole magnets pushing each other away from each other.

Dan:

I mean you know they say what right you know sunshine, you know rainy days are necessary, so you appreciate the sunny ones more. Right, you need to have the. You know, again and again you have to have some sort of difference in order to really, I feel, appreciate the other thing of whatever that is. And then you know of yourself too. So you know, maybe maybe she wants steak and you know you really push for seafood and then you go out at seafood and then when she finally has steak maybe she appreciates it a little bit more than if she had gone. You know didn't go for the seafood.

Charles:

That for that first date with you, whatever, Right, and all the time that I've known you and you've come to me excited about a new girl that you've met. Not a single time have you said, charles, she's great, she's exactly like me. That's not what we're attracted to.

Dan:

As much as we should love ourselves and appreciate what makes us unique?

Charles:

nobody ever gets excited. I met a girl and she acts exactly like I do. It says everything that I say. That is not what I'm looking for, and I don't think that's what. That's not what they're looking for either.

Dan:

I mean, you know, having some things in common. Absolutely yes.

Charles:

But the idea that we never disagree on anything, we never have a different preference, we never would rather watch this and, like we, never rather eat something different.

Dan:

Part of the two is because I really like learning from others.

Charles:

Exactly, I like trying new food.

Dan:

I like watching TV. Yeah, introduce me to something else that I, you know, you've been living your experience in your unique life and have the fingerprint of your you know your unique life for years and years and years, and I've, you know, we all have that. So I enjoy particularly learning from somebody, them sharing their experiences and everything else. And so, yeah, why would I want something where I look in the mirror and I'm like, oh yeah, I've already been here, done that.

Charles:

Right, and every. You know, every time somebody introduces you to a new movie or new TV show or whatever, there's an opportunity cost there. It's like I could be laying in my bed alone watching reruns of Star Trek the next generation, but no, I decided to watch her favorite movie instead and I really enjoyed it. And you know, if we're both laying in bed watching Star Trek the next generation, yes, that would be perfect, but it's not going to happen.

Dan:

But then. But then it's slightly different, because normally it's just you in bed watching, right? So let's, let's, let's be, let's be fair here, okay.

Charles:

All right, okay. So yeah, now that we've corrected his definition of safety and security. There was something else, oh, I didn't want to ask you a little bit about. I feel like I haven't read or done much consumption of Dr Glover's material on positive emotional tension, yeah, but I have a strong suspicion that he probably handles this topic a bit in a way that I would find more yes, sense Absolutely, absolutely.

Dan:

He does this positive emotional tension. This was not. This was an example of negative emotional tension, by as far as Glover would be concerned.

Charles:

Okay, so how does he suggest that you bring some excitement, uncertainty, great question, anxiety maybe into a relationship in a way that's not going to hurt each other?

Dan:

Yes. So you plan a date and you say, hey, show up at this time at my house, 7pm, wear a little black dress, and you know we're going to go out, and you don't tell her where, and you know you take her out for a nice dinner, you know, maybe go out dancing afterwards, whatever, that is right, you do things where you aren't, you know, giving her all of the information up front, but it's a pleasant experience that you know you both would enjoy, right, so maybe, maybe it's a like a long weekend away. Hey, pack a bag for a weekend, you know, pack your cutest bikini and and you know, show up at my door and we're going to go away for the weekend, you know, kind of thing. And so those type of excitement again, similar to kind of like a kid on Christmas, right, you, you know, you, you anticipate something, but it's a, it's a positive experience, right, and, and that would be, I mean, how would you know what would be a nice surprise? I think, if you kind of put yourself in the other person's shoes is what would be kind of a fun surprise that you might enjoy, right, and, and that's kind of how I think about it, you know, and or, or something like your parents or grandparents would take you on as a little kid and you didn't. You didn't know all the details ahead of time, and it's just that the absence of some of those details, I think, makes things a little bit more exciting, a little bit more fun.

Charles:

Yeah, where the? I mean Kenwell doesn't suggest this specifically, but it feels like he seems to, I would say, gravitate a little more to the pick up beside of you know the emotional manipulation than Glover does, which is, you know stuff like post a picture of you and a girl that she doesn't know on your social media and see if she asks you who it is. I mean just that kind of nonsense. And I found a new account on Instagram that I really like I forget the guy's name but I'll I'll share it on a future episode where he basically says I I really dislike pretty much all dating coaches because they all seem to come. And then people in his comments said not everybody. Here's some examples. But he said most dating coaches come from a perspective of here's how you get someone to do something they don't really want to do. Yeah, and I agree that does seem to be where most manipulation where most of them come from is she doesn't want to do this, but you know, if you say these things or do these things and maybe you can get her to like you or go out with you or give you her number, even though she doesn't really want to, where the ones that resonate with you and me are the ones who say stuff like okay, here's, here's how you turn yourself into the kind of person that she's going to want to be around.

Dan:

Right. Bring bring value and positive energy and emotions to all of your interactions and with everybody, and people will be attracted to that. Yeah, another idea, right? You, you, you, you maybe you know she's coming home from work you plan you cook a nice dinner for something like that as a surprise, just like little surprises, things like that. A lot of that is where Glover is talking about, that positive emotional tension. Yeah.

Charles:

Yeah, I like all of those ideas better than I mean. I don't know. Does he specifically that's part of the thing I don't think he says. Here's a thing to do to get the anxiety out of her that will lead to attraction.

Dan:

No, he says, just create anxiety.

Charles:

Okay, I mean what. You call her up at work and tell her her cat died. I don't know. Just kidding, false, alarm your cat's fine. I mean just telling. Just telling guys create anxiety and it'll build attraction. My job's done, good luck, hope it works out. I mean, come on, that's so irresponsible.

Dan:

Okay, so are we just forgetting? Maybe it Does he give examples, maybe later on in the book, I don't know.

Charles:

I mean anxiety fuel attraction is like one page long.

Dan:

So yeah, well, okay, so he does talk about this, and I think Glover also talks about too is giving space right. So a couple of chapters down he goes. He talks about attraction grows in space, and so one of the elements and Glover talks about this too is not being on top of each other. Right Is allowing, you know, is building both partners, building enough of a cake of a life to where you're not on top of each other. You're spending some time out and about doing your own things and she's spending some time out and about doing her own things, and that is space. And when you have that space, that's where attraction can grow versus. You know, you guys are with each other 24 hours of that.

Charles:

And I suppose that space could lead to some anxiety, but it should really only be the fleeting thoughts of I wonder what she's doing, I wonder who she's hanging out with. It shouldn't be things. You shouldn't be in a relationship where you ruminate on stuff like that because you're so insecure or so concerned about her loyalty or anything like that. Right when either of you you know spend time alone and then you immediately kick into anxiety and anxiety mode.

Dan:

Yeah. So I think in a healthy relationship that that's not an issue. But if that is one of the concerns from either partner, like what's that person doing? I just had a conversation with a friend the other day where, you know, you know she's talking about some married couples and that she's friends with and she wants to go on some girl trips and the girls don't want to leave their husbands because then it means the guys are going to want to go on a guys trip and they don't. And she's like, yeah, but you know, you've been happily married for years and years and years, but they still are so concerned that the guy is going to go and do something. And the point my friend made is you know, if he wants to sleep with somebody else, he doesn't need to go on vacation to do it, right? So I feel like if there's a problem letting that other human being have their freedom in terms of you know, their own time to spend, you know, with friends, then you're covering or masking a bigger problem in the relationship that needs to be addressed. So that's a trust issue at that point, right? You're not. I mean, it's different. If this is going on six out of seven days a week you're hanging out with your friends. That's a little extreme, but once a week, or once every couple of weeks, or going on a girl's trip or a guy's trip, you know, a couple times a year, you know, I feel like that's a healthy balance, yeah.

Charles:

Yeah, I do too. And while, yeah, just being apart from the person that you're used to being in close proximity with can be a cause of anxiety, it doesn't need to be anything more than just, oh, I miss them or I wonder what they're up to, but not I wonder if they're cheating on me.

Dan:

I wonder if it's college money, I mean, you know stuff like that. Yeah, it kind of comes down to needing something or somebody versus wanting and appreciating that person or that activity or whatever. That is right. So comes down to, I think, a almost like a dependency, like I need that person to be there around all the time and if it's not there, then there's something really wrong. And at that point I feel like you know same thing with, like drugs or porn or alcohol. You know where you, if you need it to function, otherwise things go off the rails. That's something that needs to be addressed and worked on.

Charles:

Yeah, and I would say, with the exception of our children. Well, I mean our hypothetical children neither of you have either of us have them, but with the exception of children, we generally don't want to feel like other people need us. We want to. We want to feel like other people who are of the same level of attraction, success, value, however you define that. They want us. We don't want to feel like someone needs us because that automatically puts them at a lower value than ourselves.

Dan:

If somebody and it makes you feel bad too, because you start to feel. You start to feel guilty sometimes and obligated. Now then, because now you are visibly upsetting the other person because you aren't, you know, right there at their beck and call right, yeah, that's, that's.

Charles:

That's a balance, that is a relationship killer, where you want someone and then realize that they need you and your life or vice versa.

Dan:

I've been on both sides.

Charles:

I have too, and it is yeah, it's. Usually neither party is happy in that scenario and the relationship doesn't last.

Dan:

And it's very difficult. Then I feel like to work on that, because that requires both people to be really vulnerable and yeah, without, without, like I think, professional help, yeah, I don't. I don't know how you could even start to talk about, well, I need you and you only want me, or I feel guilty that you, you need me, and like that could just get really touchy and really really upsetting.

Charles:

I would say a situation like that will require, oh yeah, one to get into 12 step or both people to get into therapy. I mean there's yeah, there's bigger interventions and because you know, as I always say, the two brains that got you into that relationship are not the only resources that will get you out. I mean that's same same thing I say when people get into you know, I've had friends with eating disorders or they've struggled with chemical dependency it's like the same brain that got you hooked on vomiting after every meal or shooting drugs or whatever. That same brain is not going to be able to get you out of the problem. No, that's not the way it works.

Dan:

And it's tough to to swallow your pride a little bit. Okay, well, I'm going to go for a therapist or go for professional help. A lot of times we'll go to friends and unless they're a professional therapist, they might do more damage than than help. Actually, you're getting their opinion. I'll tell you to go get professional help Right. But otherwise they're just going to weigh in with their two cents.

Charles:

And now they're going to yeah, they're going to go into fix it mode on your situation that they don't completely understand, that they don't completely. Yeah, like even if they have a good experience for you, they yeah that's not.

Dan:

That's not a. That's not a conversation over drinks at a bar one night with your guy or girlfriends, you know no, I would say, I would say not.

Charles:

I mean, unless you know, hopefully you do have a group of quality friends where at least one person in that group is going to say look, I'm sorry you're going through that. If you want to fix it, we're not the people you need to be talking to you need to listen to mindfully mask podcast and they'll set you straight. Yes. And the mental health professionals that we get kickbacks from. We were free to, we got to, we got to we got to set that up, yeah absolutely All right, dan, we are. We're 59 minutes and 50 seconds in, so I think that's a pretty good time to take a break.

Dan:

Sounds great man.

Charles:

All right, we will talk to you guys next time.

Dan:

Thanks, Thank you.

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