Whiskers and Wax: The Subtleties of Male Grooming

Have you ever sat down at a fancy restaurant, only to discover a stray hair in your spaghetti? That's exactly what happened to one of us last week, and it sparked a hilarious, albeit slightly gross, discussion about the unexpected places we find hair. This mishap, alongside Garrett Muntz's sage advice, led us into a hearty chat about the world of men's hair care products. We swap anecdotes and explore everything from the slick appeal of pomade to the subtle charm of mustache wax, aiming to arm you with the knowledge to craft your ideal look.

As we peel back the layers of hair styling, we get personal, sharing the triumphs and tribulations of our own hair care adventures. Whether it's the ease of a buzz cut or the trials of taming unruly waves, we dissect the balance between style, comfort, and the time we're willing to invest in front of the mirror. Our banter takes us through the misunderstood realm of hair creams and moisturizers—could they be the secret weapon in your grooming arsenal? And let's not forget the curiosity around salt spray; we weigh in on whether it's a beachy blessing or just saline hype.

Rounding out the episode, we get real about the importance of aligning your hair care routine with your day-to-day life. We open up about the stalwarts of our bathroom shevles and the new products we're itching to try, encouraging you to find that sweet spot where maintenance meets personal style. So, if you're up for a blend of good humor and grooming wisdom, make sure to tune into the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. Trust us, you'll come for the laughs but stay for the savvy self-care tips. See you in the next episode, where we continue to navigate the path to staying mindfully masculine.

Transcript

Charles: 0:00

Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. In this week's episode, Dan and I will continue to review and discuss self-care for men by Garrett Muntz, focusing on hair care products and what we use, what we don't use, what we recommend, what we don't recommend. So please enjoy the show, follow or subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and remember, remember our full episodes with video are available on YouTube. Just look for Mindfully Masculine. Thanks and enjoy.

Dan: 0:29

Good afternoon once again, charles. Hello again Dan.

Charles: 0:33

How are you? I'm well Good, me too. Let's see what are we going to talk about. What are we going to talk about? Eventually, we're going to talk about hair products and how to use them, but before that, we're going to talk about hair products and how to use them, but before that, we're going to talk about I am going to an italian place for dinner tonight. Okay means I have to get salad, because that's the only thing that is really no, you could do they.

Dan: 0:55

Yeah, I think they have, like a now franchise has a little bit of breading on it, right, but you could do with brown sauce. Oh my gosh, marsala, right? Oh, like chicken marsala, chicken marsala with some vegetables, and just not get the fun stuff vegetables. Basically, all I'm eating is a grilled chicken, brussels and wine on it there's a little gravy I think there's a little brown gravy in there and stuff like that. So yeah, that's a good option it's not.

Charles: 1:22

I think a chicken Caesar salad is probably a better option, though.

Dan: 1:25

Yeah, you could probably do a caprese salad. I could do that, you know how.

Charles: 1:30

the tomato quality is always a problem for me with those salads, and this is just a route around Lake Noda before my men's group meets tonight, so I don't know how great the tomatoes are going to be. But I have been doing Caesar salads with grilled shrimp or blackened shrimp lately.

Dan: 1:45

That sounds good. I haven't mixed it up with blackened shrimp in a while.

Charles: 1:48

Yeah, yeah, that's a good choice. So that's what I'll probably end up doing tonight. Let's see. Do we have any travel coming up? I'm going to be going out on a fact-finding mission to find my next campground here soon, maybe on Saturday. Okay, I may head over to the Bradenton Sarasota area to do a little bit of scouting on Saturday. I got some stuff to do around the house. I'm not convinced that I'm going to do it then. I may do it Monday or Tuesday instead.

Dan: 2:12

I forgot to ask Are you going to stay through the end of May in Wintergarden, I think through the end of June? Oh, you're going. Okay, I think I'm going to. I only booked through the end of May. Okay, they gave me that sweet deal. If you got my back and asked to get a little better deal, I haven't got back to get May yet. Okay, the deal I already got. They did give you the 35% off.

Charles: 2:32

Yes, Okay, yeah, good. I walked into the office and I talked to them directly. Okay, said it's a good thing you came in before march 31st or whatever so they knew.

Dan: 2:44

Yeah, when I called the reservation line they were like I've never heard of this deal and I had to forward the reservation deal for corporate to them, to them, and she's all won't open the pictures, like wouldn't render, and stuff like that. I'll take a screenshot. I don't get it's 35 off a month's rent. Are you kidding me? Like nonsense. Yeah, so fortunately that worked. But yeah, I know we had a trip booked to do that, so I apologize for my crazy.

Charles: 3:08

No, we had to change it mostly to accommodate the new podcast that we're starting. Yeah, and our time is better served to-.

Dan: 3:15

I do want to go out there and check. I'm absolutely going to go with you at some point, or by myself, whatever. Yeah, see what looks good out there?

Charles: 3:22

Yeah, I'll definitely. I'll come up with a list of spots and I'm looking forward to. I don't know whether I'll land on Sarasota or Bradenton, it really just depends on the individual campgrounds. But the time that I spent over there a few days in a row or a few days close to each other to get my car, it was a nicer, nicer area than I thought it was. Okay cool. Yeah, they have Whole Foods and they have a fancy mall with a SAC. Fifth, Avenue.

Dan: 3:45

I think every town has one of those, except there's no RV parks near any of those. That's true.

Charles: 3:50

Usually the land for a Whole Foods that works better than the land for an RV park. We'll see how close we can get to one, but even in Orlando we only have what three Whole Foods. Now we got the Turkey Lake, the Winter Garden or no, winter Park and Altamont. I think that's it.

Dan: 4:05

Yeah, the silly ones I know of.

Charles: 4:07

Okay, so enough about me and my dinner plans. Let's talk about hair. Let's continue talking about hair.

Dan: 4:12

Hopefully it doesn't involve your dinner plans Ew, yeah, that's gross, yeah is that one of those things where, if you find a hair in your dinner, you're like, you're done Like one hair.

Charles: 4:20

Probably not, probably not. It would gross me out, but I don't. If I really like the place, I don't think I would be like I'm never coming back here or yeah, I'm fine again.

Dan: 4:26

I'm the same. I'll push to the side and I'll keep eating. It's not a problem. But I've been with some, I've been on some dinner dates and stuff like that, where it's one hair and all of a sudden, just like that I would.

Charles: 4:36

I mean, if I was on a date with a gal and she was eating her food and found a hair in it, it had a more extreme reaction than I would at least be able to say yeah, I get it. Like a reasonable person could be like this is gross, I've lost my appetite, I don't want to eat here.

Dan: 4:52

I would explain that I'm not paying and we would leave, and then I can understand it, I can absolutely understand, but at the same time it's I want to say have you've never been on a picnic and you've got ants and flies and things crawling? For some reason it's different. I don't know what the reason is. You're probably right, You're probably right, and for reasons I don't quite get, but I'm like there's probably. I guess the thing is it's just maybe the mind races to what else could be in there. Right, I only found the hair. What else Did something else go in there with the hair? What other in there with the hair? What are you? Yeah, you can't really assume. Okay, fucking myself out. I don't think I'm gonna leave, I'm grossing myself out right now.

Charles: 5:28

then I'm thinking about it. Yeah, you get the impression of the place not being clean once you find a hair in the food.

Dan: 5:33

Yeah, yeah, that's there. I've heard some things about some chinese places other than the big franchises that you like the independent little takeout places?

Charles: 5:44

yeah locally.

Dan: 5:45

A lot of them have been shut down and things for health violations and I'm learning a little bit about health violations. They need to be. You have to have three serious, because there's different levels before they shut you down. Three serious ones before they shut you down.

Charles: 5:58

Interesting, not minor ones so that means too serious, or as many minors as you like if you're still in business. Three and then three, probably from baseball. They probably got that from stole that from baseball strikes you're out. Yep, okay, I see you brought some, some product. I did it off. We'll just interrupt as we go through the list.

Charles: 6:15

Types of hair product include pomade. I have a jar of pomade at home. I don't use it frequently because I don't like the shine, but I do that. It's not very. It doesn't make my hair too stiff or too gooey, so I do like that about it, but the shine usually I don't. I'm gonna try to sell the idea that my hair is wet all day when it's not actually wet. I don't like a very high shine thing, so usually I use um, I think I have one thing of clay. No, I think I've got one pomade and two pastes, I believe, believe. So we'll get to paste in a second.

Charles: 6:46

But pomade, he says it's basically the most versatile product for most men's hair and hairstyles. So if you're only buying one thing to put your hair, pomade's a pretty good choice, unless, again, you don't like the. You don't like the shine and the wet look. Yeah, you've got some clay there? I don't believe I use clay. I think clay has been used on my hair at a salon before, but I don't generally use clay. Why don't you tell us about what you got?

Dan: 7:09

Yes, I was actually looking for a replacement for this Maverick paste and I found this clay on Amazon. Have you seen the Maverick paste? Sure, give it a set.

Charles: 7:19

A stiff dry paste medium whole mat fit.

Dan: 7:22

What a lot of these companies did to handle all of the crazy inflation that our country is experiencing is they decreased the size of their standard A little bit like that with coffee and ice cream for years.

Dan: 7:36

And I just noticed it with the paste here and it was the same price. It was like a quarter of an ounce less and it was significantly smaller. So I found this was less expensive. Didn't realize it was actually different. I did Before reading this book. I didn't know what the difference between paste and clay was. I thought it was the same stuff, just a different brand. So I thought the texture was different. So this really is like literally a piece of clay where you would mold it and it does not move.

Charles: 8:02

I was going to say I imagine that the hold's a bit stronger. It's also very matte, right? Yes, it's so shiny black.

Dan: 8:07

And I do like the matte, but you've got to work it hard in your hands. Oh, can we edit that out? Yes, yeah, so you've got to really get that rubbed thin on your hands. Make that work so it doesn't leave chunks in your hair.

Charles: 8:19

Yeah, one.

Dan: 8:20

And even then I'm not successful.

Charles: 8:22

Some hairstyles do will take their trusty hairdryer that they don't use on my hair and they'll turn the heat up and use that on the little can of product. Get it a little warmed up, Then it spreads a little easier. So I've seen a couple of my hairstylists do that before.

Dan: 8:36

I'm going to do that with my hairdryer from now on. Great Another use for your hairdryer, Because in a cold morning man, this stuff is like a rock trying to get in.

Charles: 8:44

Yeah, you allow them to keep your place cold, like I do. I have zeroed in on I woke up in the middle of the night last night, hot. I've zeroed in on the perfect temperature that I like to sleep at Negative, it's in Kelvin, so we'll start there. Joke for all you science people. Yeah, no, 64 degrees Fahrenheit is my perfect sleeping temperature. Okay, or I shouldn't say that's my warmest sleeping temperature, because I woke up in the middle of the night last night and I was like I had to get up to use the restroom, like, oh, you know what I'm? I'm a little hot. This is a little uncomfortable. It's not real bad, but I'm a little uncomfortable.

Charles: 9:17

And I checked my thermostat and it was 66. So I was like you know it really is, it's got to be 64 or lower for me to get a good night's sleep. And how low can it go? I mean, if you, if I've got my electric blanket and I think with my electric blanket I could probably tolerate the upper forties and still get a good night's sleep. Wow, like I just love where the air is so cold. You don't want to get out from under the covers. And it makes my cat more affectionate because he's, because he's freezing to death. So it's great, I like. I think that I've definitely slept in low fifties and enjoyed it, and I think I could probably do low four upper forties and still be very comfortable. But yeah, speaking of heat, yeah, use your hairdryer on your pump aid wax. I don't have wax. I don't know if I've ever used like actual wax. But he says wax is wax and it's heavy and it's shiny more shine than pomade. And he says a lot of control I would think almost infinite control from wax.

Dan: 10:16

I'm thinking that's what people guys oh, I have that In my mustache Right Good point.

Charles: 10:30

Because point is, you need to make it. Yeah, let that thing move it. I've had a handlebar mustache and I really wanted the the corners to go up. Yeah, then I use mustache wax by panod it's a french company, I believe okay, and they make it in colors and they also make it in neutral, and I've used the neutral when I've grown a long whack a lot.

Dan: 10:37

I didn't know they made it in colors. Yeah, you can fit it.

Charles: 10:40

Yeah, like black and oh, the kind of gray kind of I don't know if it's to cover the gray or if it's just to enhance the. Make it look fuller. Make your mustache look fuller, yeah, by having a colored wax on it. But yeah, I've only used the natural.

Dan: 10:55

Okay.

Charles: 10:57

To curl up the corners, but that's a look I don't see myself going back to. I don't think a mustache that's long enough to curl up the.

Dan: 11:06

I wish I had that option. It's not even on my radar. I can't curl it Even enough time. It would happen for you, it wouldn't no.

Charles: 11:14

Then the in-between period would especially not look pretty yeah.

Dan: 11:18

We have to take a break from the podcast for a couple of years.

Charles: 11:20

Yeah, exactly, you go live on a mountain somewhere while you grow your handlebar mustache. I'll call in on my phone. Okay, paste is creamier than pomade less hold but more moisturizing. Ideal for curly or wavy hair.

Dan: 11:33

Yeah, so that's what I've got here, this paste. Now, when he says it's ideal for curly or wavy hair, that's what I'm always a little bit confused about, because I don't like having curly hair and I do everything in my possible, my power, to try and make it as straight as possible. And of course, grass is always greener right. You hear people with straight hair always wish they had a wavy and curly. So when it says it's good for that, is it mean because it's going to enhance it or it's going to straighten it out because that's not what you want?

Charles: 12:03

I was always a little confused. I would assume it's's going to straighten it out, because that's not what you want. I was always a little confused.

Dan: 12:06

I would assume it's not going to straighten it, yeah, yeah, I don't know and I'll be honest with you. It doesn't straighten as well as the clay does for me, and it just it makes sense. If you look at the product in the tins here that it, you can see that this one's much stiffer than that yeah, I would think something that something like the, like the wax or a heavy pomade, basically to keep curly hair straight.

Charles: 12:28

You need something that surrounds the strand of hair.

Dan: 12:31

It does not let it move back, and that goes back to where you said the other day is you don't like feeling something in your hair? You definitely. If you run your fingers through my hair, there is, you definitely feel that stuff. That's in there, yeah my hair.

Charles: 12:42

My hair gets wavy when it gets long enough, but it's got to get. It's got to be much, much longer than I usually wear it before it's long enough to see the waves. But once yeah once it gets long enough, it gets very wavy to the point where I can't even really do a left hand part and and just brush it over. This way it just starts doing all kinds of fun stuff. Part of the reason and the result is it doesn't look as good when I just hop out of the shower and throw my clothes on and go where. When I'm wearing it this short, it's very I don't have to put any product in If I'm in a real hurry and I don't want to put any product in at all, or if I want to just get out of bed and go for my three mile walk without doing anything. Some throwing some clothes on. I'd say a couple months ago, when I had my hair pretty long, it was embarrassing to just get out of bed and walk out the door with that hair. That's why I was wearing my, I was wearing my leather driving cap and I was wearing my my North Face baseball cap a lot more, because it was just yeah, it was bad when it was that long where with this.

Charles: 13:44

Yeah, I like the number one. I think it looks better on a day-to-day basis with most of the kind of clothes I wear, because, you know, for work I'm generally a polo shirt, button down with a pair of nice jeans or khakis, and then when I'm not working in front of a client, then I'm pretty much shorts and t-shirts and I think that look goes good, that that fashion look goes well with very low maintenance, almost military style haircuts. Now, would this look as good with a tux or a suit? Maybe not quite as good, but it still looks pretty good. Yeah, I'm going to keep it short and I'm going to focus on using as little product as I can to get it looking good. Gel we talked about, I think, in the last episode. That's one of the ones where it can get a little crunchy and it can get a little like again when you run your fingers, you pinch your hair, then a bunch of white like filament come out with it and I don't really like that.

Dan: 14:39

Yeah, I feel like gel is the cheap version of, you know, products that we just talked about?

Charles: 14:45

Yeah, I would agree with that cream. Cream looks like lotion and help keeps your hair hydrated. I have used a classic product that's been out forever is real cream that came out in geez, the 30s or 40s maybe, and you can still buy it at walmart and I think maybe walgreens, and it is a cream that you put in your hair with, I think, lanolin and some other stuff and it definitely keeps your hair hydrated. I might buy some more. Actually, hold it Lace and some. It's not very strong hold.

Dan: 15:10

Okay.

Charles: 15:11

I would say it's light to medium hold, but it does make your hair look, I don't know like it's been moisturized. Okay, I currently use tea trees hair and either hair and body hair and face hair and skin. I forget what they call it it, but it's a moisturizer, the 12-in-1. How dare you? And I basically, yeah, it's for your hair and I guess you could use on your face and I I do a pump of that in my hair to keep it, because my hair does have a tendency to dry out and get and that's exactly what I use.

Dan: 15:36

Oh, there we go. Same thing, it's not. They have tried to sell me on that.

Charles: 15:40

I've not bought it yet, but I like the smell.

Dan: 15:42

It does keep my hair moist and my scalp moist as well. So what's the biofuel?

Charles: 15:46

by Gibbs. Yes, magnum, I think that's just referring to the size of the container, right? Yes, okay, nothing to do with conditioning fuel for beard and hair. Yeah, nice, okay, yeah, I do. Most days, all I use is that moisturizer. I just run that through my hair and nothing else.

Charles: 16:04

Got it and I would say it's a very light hold, but it does stop with some of the frizziness. Yeah, it gets a little bit, but again, with my hair being as short as it is, it doesn't get that frizzy. Okay, here's a product I'd never heard of salt spray. Never heard of that either.

Dan: 16:16

I guess you just mix some table salt and okay, I was always under the impression you should be showering. Yeah, the leave of the salt in your hair is not a good thing On your skin. It shouldn't be there for that long. Yeah, I thought that too, so I don't know. I know saltwater does tend to heal, things Like if you've got a couple of minor cuts and things like that and you go to the ocean and a lot of times afterwards maybe it's the sun. I'll need to see a peer-reviewed study on that. I think it's like superstition for me. I feel like I've had some minor little cuts. I actually heal a little bit faster from that. I don't know. Look, it's not a, it's an n equals one study for sure.

Charles: 16:59

Exactly, charlton charles has a skeptical face on right now, but I've never heard of an actual intentional spring with salt water yeah, because every guy I knew when I worked in New Smyrna I knew a few of them that would surf on their lunch breaks and stuff Showering was a big part of the point. I'm going to go, I'm going to surf, I'm going to catch a few waves, then I'm going to go get under the public shower and get all the salt water off my hair and my body before I put my work clothes back thing?

Charles: 17:24

I would think so too but Garrett knows more than we do, presumably, about certain things, about yeah, okay, so how to use products? Start with damp hair unless it specifically says, hey, you should use this on dry hair, but that just putting product on dry hair seems it's tough.

Dan: 17:41

I've done that before and that's not. It doesn't work very well. I don't think I would enjoy that. You get stuff stuck in one spot all the time.

Charles: 17:47

Use the right amount, which I would say, much like laundry detergent. You probably have a tendency to use too much. Yeah, definitely, stick with something between a pea and a dime size and that should get it. I like step three here Cover your hands. So rub your hands together, make sure your entire palms are covered and then work it in with your fingers and try to starting from the back, which is the next step. If you start from the back, then any of the big clumps you should be able to. Especially, the back of my hair is so short that I could really almost use it like a brush to break up any clumps, and just by the time I got to the front and the top of my hair it would be a little bit more.

Charles: 18:24

Something that I just learned from this book. I didn't realize, yeah, but intuitively it does make sense. Absolutely, Cover, then shape as you're applying. Make sure to really distribute it throughout your hair Once it's massaged in. Then go back and use your brush or your fingers or your comb or whatever. And then he does say to use hairspray. Last Again, see, women will use hairspray, especially brides getting ready for a wedding or something like that, where they need their hair to stay exactly the way that it is for hours at a time Just cans and cans of hairspray, Again locking it in. That just makes me feel uncomfortable, feeling like I was carrying around all that product in my hair.

Dan: 19:01

I feel like it's the little hats that they put on. Yes, yes, exactly that's the vision that I get. Yes, exactly that's the vision that I get.

Charles: 19:05

It's funny. There was a radio host in Orlando a while ago that would refer to a phenomena known, as she called it, republican hair Okay, where it basically looks like you basically got a hair helmet Right hair Drop on top of your head.

Dan: 19:20

It was for the Lego men too I thought they had hair that you could not just the hats, but yeah, yeah, they definitely have the hair.

Charles: 19:27

They have little plastic haircuts on top of the Lego men, for sure. And I think Trent Lott, the former Senate Majority Leader, she referred to as having Republican hair, where it really did look like he could have been bald, just wearing a full head toupee. Yeah, because it was just always that coiffed and always that hair sprayed. I don't know what it actually was, but it was either very hairsprayed hair or it was a toupee, and when your hair is so hairsprayed that it looks like it could be a toupee, I would say that's too much hairspray for me, but that's just my opinion. Okay, let's see what else we got. Those were the steps. Oh, cocktail hour. So here's where he suggests mixing up a couple of products to get the look that you need. He suggests, if you like the bedhead look, which I would say after over a certain age might be, people may start to look down on you If you're spending hours and hours making your hair look like you didn't spend any time on your hair. Yeah, me personally. If I see a guy over 40 and he's rocking a very deliberate bedhead look, I'd be like man, you got too much time on your hands. You need to be. You should be going for walks and listening to podcasts or something, I don't know, but you're spending a lot of time on that. Hair Volumizing spray plus pomade is a good combo for thin hair. I'll keep that in mind. If my hair is thin, I'll use those two together. And then, if you want a nice clean part, he recommends a lightweight gel plus a hairspray. And yeah, you can get a nice clean part that way.

Charles: 20:55

When it comes to shopping we talked about some of this stuff with the skincare products for your face, start where you go to buy your shampoo and see if the company, if you like your shampoo, see if the company that makes your shampoo also has some hair care products, and that's a good place to start. Start cheap and try it out, and if you don't like it, then move up to more expensive. Again, for the most part, you will have to try it out and actually use it, or ask your barber or hairstylist if you see something that appeals to you. A lot of times they'll have just a ton of stuff on the counter at their station and you can say, hey, I've been thinking about trying that. Can I see how that'll look in my hair? They'll either do it or they'll say, oh no, that's the wrong for your hair start with probably the person hair yeah, that's a good idea, unless the guy I go to doesn't use anything in my hair.

Charles: 21:38

He, when he's done shaving the back of my neck, he just puts some rubbing alcohol on his hands, slaps it. So he's not putting any iron products, that products that public's brand.

Charles: 21:47

Yeah, we're kind of rubbing alcohol we got here, let me have a sip yeah, and so, again, I think what dan said is true the best place to start for advice on something like that is your barber or your stylist.

Charles: 21:59

And yes, tell also and we'll get into this in the next chapter before somebody goes to work on your haircut, always tell them how much work you plan on doing on a daily basis to keep it up and keep it looking the way that they make it look. Because if they're spending 15 minutes at the end of the haircut styling it to make it look nice and you're not willing to spend that 15 minutes every day probably longer because you're not as practiced and good at it as they are, don't have them give you a hairstyle that is contingent upon you spending 20 to 30 minutes. Get it to look that way. If you're not happy and excited to spend that time on your hair. If you're down for that, then by all means do it. But if you're like, oh no, all I'm willing to do is towel, dry it, put in one product and run out the door to the thing that I'm late for, then don't have them give you some complex hairstyle that takes them a long time to set up for you.

Dan: 22:48

Yeah, I hate to keep bringing it back to habits. Yeah, but that's the thing is. You have your habit. You've got your routine in the morning. Now you're willing to change it and add another 15, 20 minutes to that if you're not already doing that. If your, why is strong enough?

Charles: 22:59

obviously, yeah, I guess if you land a big job or some sort of new career where or just a big life change where you lost a bunch of weight and you're looking that you want to look different, you're going to wear different clothes, going to do a different hairstyle. Something like that happens. Sure, by all means be open to it. But again, know thyself. If you're not the kind of person that's going to keep up with a routine like that, then certainly don't have them cut your hair as if you were that kind of person, because then you're stuck with it for six to eight weeks yeah, and I think we've in different aspects we're like, oh, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, like I did that with gardening, I did that with growing vegetables.

Dan: 23:32

One time I made this huge look and it just I didn't. Oh, I gotta weed every day, I gotta pull this stuff out, I gotta take care of it. Yeah, totally underestimated the effort involved.

Charles: 23:41

So, yeah, just wanted the result, didn't want the effort yeah, the only way to generally swing that is by paying a professional every day to do it for you, which few of us have the budget or the mindset to be okay with doing that. Yeah, just be careful committing yourself to anything with your hair in this case that you don't think you've or you think there's a good chance you're not going to be willing to maintain. All right, sounds good. Anything else, dan, on hair care products, not from me. I think I've mentioned everything that I use and everything that I plan on using and everything that I would consider using, so I think we're covered. All right, we'll talk to you next time. Bye-bye, bye. Wow, you made it through the whole thing, so you must like us at least a little bit, in which case you should definitely follow or subscribe to our show in your chosen podcast app. Thanks, we'll talk to you next.