Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Your Relationship With Your Mom Might Be The Problem
Ever pondered about the complex dance between men's expectations in romantic relationships and their bonds with their mothers? We'll take you on a journey through the labyrinth of relationships, shedding light on the unconscious patterns men may carry from their maternal relationships. Our conversation then weaves its way through the principles of hypergamy, challenging victim mindsets, and the importance of personal responsibility in love relationships.
As we dive deeper, we explore the intriguing world of love languages and their profound effect on relationships. We unravel the often-misunderstood dynamics of expressing and receiving love in different languages. You'll get a glimpse into our evolution as our primary love languages have shifted over the years. And what’s more? We delve into the delicate art of gift-giving, and the complexities that come with understanding and appreciating your partner's love language. Join us in this in-depth exploration of the nuances of relationships, self-care, travel tips, and much more!
Good morning Charles. How are you?
Charles:Good morning, dan. I am well. How are you? I am also well. I woke up early this morning to check in for my flight to New York City tomorrow and I had not paid for a seat assignment, so Spirit finally stuck me in a middle seat. Oh fun. And so now I've got to decide do I just take the middle seat and then try to worm my way into an aisle or window once I'm on the plane, or do I pay them for an assigned seat in an aisle or a window and know for sure that I'll have one?
Dan:So what time is the flight tomorrow? 5.15 am. There's a good chance. It might not be full?
Charles:I don't think it's going to be full, so you, I think I've got a good shot at just asking a flight attendant hey, can I move over to that row over there and sit in the window? Would that be okay? I think they would say yes. Or I pay $21 and I pick out the exact seat that I want, which would also get me much closer to the front of the plane. Like I could get a window in row 15 for $21, or right now I'm in a middle on row 37.
Dan:Mmm, I mean not even for the comfort of the seat, but just to not be on the plane for an extra half hour.
Charles:Might be worth it for me, but, like you said, it's probably not going to be that crowded, so deep planning probably won't take as long as it would if it was a crowded flight. That's fair.
Dan:But I do. I mean $21 is like the cost of like one drink in New York anyway. So I mean, I don't know, man, yeah, I thought about that. I mean I could very easily. So my philosophy on traveling is I will do as much convenient things to make the whole process smoother, easier and more enjoyable as much as possible, with the exception of, like you know, spending $1,000 upgrade of first class, because for me, I want to go in with as much energy and enjoyment and clarity as possible, because these aren't things that you do every day, right?
Charles:Well, it's something I do every day. Okay, this time of year pretty good, just because you fly more than a pilot.
Dan:I mean, you know to be honest with you, but I, you know, so I will. You know I'll pay for I'll pay a few extra bucks to get a little bit more leg room, knowing it's just going to make my overall experience a little bit nicer, and so that I'm coming into that experience already with a little bit more we talked about that on a previous podcast is I really believe in giving yourself that, Doing that self-care, those things to make life a little bit easier, so you've got a little bit more of a capacity to handle things when they go wrong, and it doesn't necessarily just crap on your whole trip, rude your whole trip.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, all right.
Dan:So I would upgrade.
Charles:I think what I might do is they're big seats like that are like first class style seats on the frontier. There's one left C yeah, one C is available and 40 bucks.
Dan:Oh, that's a no-brainer, just do it Big zone, do it just one time as an experiment, right, and then see, hey, was it worth it, you know? And look back and see where you would have been sitting with the rest of the peasants.
Charles:Oh, wow, on the flight home it's only $43 for a For the big seat. Yeah, I would, oh, but on the way home, no see.
Dan:On the way home See yeah, on the way home, it's not that important.
Charles:And I can upgrade to an aisle on row 26 for $7. So that's good enough, yeah.
Dan:On the way home I'm a little bit more. Yeah, I really don't care what kind of seats I'm getting and things, unless I've got a busy day the next day and I have to be somewhat functional.
Charles:All right, so for $47, I can upgrade my seat on both flights. I think I'm going to just go ahead and do that. Oh, both ways, that's cool.
Dan:Yeah, for $47. Oh, with the 7 on the way, yeah.
Charles:Yeah, so let me go ahead and do that real quick. This is real entertaining stuff.
Dan:I'm sure the listeners love it yeah.
Charles:I'm a very professional broadcaster, clearly, clearly. All right, take my card and tell me that it's confirmed. You maniacs there Done. Okay, that's, that's, that's all. Thank you for the good advice on that. Yeah, $40 to and again, this isn't just a normal recreational trip.
Dan:Oh, that's right, you need to exert yourself a little bit on this one.
Charles:I am going to be doing my 30 mile hike 48 hours from now. I will be, let's see. By this time I'll be almost four hours in and that should be somewhere around. I should have already cleared mile 10 by now. Okay, I'm shooting for about three miles an hour, mile every 20 minutes, which you know on wilderness. That's, that's a nice clip, it is. Yeah, oh, that reminds me I'm going to take that iPhone with me. Okay, so that I'm going to have my big battery charger and I'm going to have two iPhones and two sets of AirPods, because the last thing I want to do is try to raw dog, walk in with no, with no audio entertainment for miles 20 through 30. I will kill myself. Yeah, so I'm bringing an extra phone, I'm bringing an extra set of AirPods. I am doing everything I can to make sure I do not run out of juice or run out of. I downloaded some of.
Charles:I went through and did a Google search for what are Stephen King's best produced audio books. Oh, nice, and I wentbecause I like Stephen King, but I haven't listened to his stuff in a while, so I'm going to bring two or three of those. There's a book I saw actually just on the shelf in Barnes Noble. Last time I was getting my steps into a shopping mall, all about the Medici family from Italy. They were like during the Renaissance they started the banking system in Italy, wow, and rose to a real high level of power. And just reading the back cover of this book, it sounded like it'd be really interesting. So I'm going to use one of my Audible credits to get that, and that'll be something very different from what I usually Like.
Charles:Historical biographies is not really my wheelhouse as far as the kinds of books that I listen to. I listen to self-improvement and relationships and occasionally a couple of fiction authors, but something like that will be a little bit outside of what I'm used to. So I'm really looking forward to listening to that on the trail as well. So, yeah, I start 6.45 outside of Hackett's Town, new Jersey, on Sunday morning, and I'm also bringing two headlamps with extra batteries, because they won't let you on the 30-mile course unless they confirm that you have a headlamp or a flashlight of some sort. So is there a cutoff?
Dan:like they say all right after this hour, like you're done, no matter what.
Charles:No, so you can take as long as you want to take, and there will be somebody there, but they do start picking the signs up off the trail route at a certain time.
Dan:So when do they start picking the bodies off the trail route?
Charles:That's, I don't know. I'm also bringing plenty of ibuprofen, because usually around mile number eight, I start getting some hip pain, maybe some ankle pain, so I'm going to be ready for that. I ordered a new packable windbreaker, okay, so I was going to deliver later today, just because, yeah, I think the temps are going to be around 50 degrees when I start and so I'm going to wear my Columbia zip off pants where they convert from pants to shorts. So I'm hoping that with a tank top and a windbreaker and a lot of physical activity, I should be able to handle 50 degrees without a lot of layers.
Dan:In terms of your shoes. Are these new ones? Are they ones that you've already worn and broken in.
Charles:So I'm wearing my Merrill Trail Runners that I always forget what the model of them is, but I got them two summers ago when Erie and I went to Hawaii for her birthday and they're starting to wear through. There's some tears right around where the toe area bends, like that outside corner, I guess, where shoes will typically start wearing first. This is going to be the last hike for those shoes. I'm going to wear them on this one and they're also my go-tos.
Charles:When I go visit a walking city like Boston, new York, chicago and I know I'm going to be getting 30, 40,000 steps a day I always wear these shoes because they're super comfortable. I did wear my hiking boots a couple of times to just confirm that they're comfortable and I wouldn't have to break them in. I've broken them in on some hikes already, but they're just not as comfortable and lightweight as the Trail Runners. So I'm going to wear the Trail Runners and then I'm going to retire them after this last hike and they're going to go in the garbage and I'm going to have to buy a new pair.
Charles:The new ones are about $155, but Merrill always has sales and coupons and stuff like that, so I'll probably end up spending about $120 on the next set and look if I can get three mammoth marches and half a dozen city trips and a national park out of them over two years before I have to toss them and get new ones. I'm okay with that investment. I don't expect them to last forever.
Dan:Yeah, I mean what I've been hearing is most sneakers or shoes I mean not shoes, but sneakers are active. It lasts about a year, so if you're getting two out of that, you're really active with it.
Charles:Great. Yeah, my big thing is I only get the ones that are made out of Gore-Tex, because it's lightweight, it's breathable, your feet don't like they have a. Merrill has three models in this particular shoe. I think in their Moab and in whatever this name is that I can't remember. They have the ventilated one, the waterproof one and the Gore-Tex one, and the Gore-Tex is the most expensive. Gore-tex and waterproof are both waterproof, but the Gore-Tex technology is a better waterproofing than just waterproof, and I've read that people's feet tend to sweat a lot more in the waterproofs. Yeah, so I'm willing to spend the extra 20 or 30 bucks, but I am excited I've been looking at for the next one. I mean they're going to get a very sort of boring navy colored one that will match a lot of other clothes that I could wear them in a lot more situations, or very loud, brightly colored pair that it's very clear that I'm wearing trail runners. So I'm vacillating between those two choices. I know which one you're going with. You think I'll end up going with the loud one.
Dan:No, why would I vote in that direction? I mean the thing to do with that, that what you were to the white party, the guys with ties, that was fun.
Charles:Yeah, I don't know. But the thing is, if I'm wearing it to work, I mean the boring navy ones I could wear if I'm going to a decent restaurant or something like that. I could wear those without them standing out as sneakers. The black ones were the navy ones, when the bright blue ones that I'm looking at, it's very clear that gentleman is wearing sneakers where the other ones can kind of fly under the radar.
Dan:Do you need other ones to fly under the radar? Don't you have other shoes that you'd be normally wearing with those outfits?
Charles:for those occasions, yeah, Normally I would wear my.
Dan:Doc Martens or my dress boots.
Charles:Yeah, I think that's a good point. Yeah, but I do think I may this particular kind of shoe, and I need to look up the name of it because I feel like I'm going senile and I'm also robbing our listeners of the benefit of knowing what they are. Let's see Merrill Nova. That's the model. Okay, the Nova 3 is what I'm considering. Ever since I got these Nova 2s two years ago, I've not really had a reason to wear my actual hiking boots, so I made the boots are still in great shape. I may donate the boots, throw out my Nova 2s and then just get a pair of Nova 3s, and then you know, I love it Living in my tiny house. I love it whenever I can consolidate two things into one thing. I feel like I've got an option to do that here, where donating the boots and just sticking to the trail runners Nice, nice yeah.
Dan:I'm excited about Good luck on the hike.
Charles:Thank you. I'm excited to get Whole Foods. I got some meat sticks and also some hard cheeses, but now I'm trying to decide if it's worth actually transporting the meat sticks and the hard cheeses up there or do I just keep them in my camper as a keto snack and then buy them once I get up to New Jersey, because I mean there's plenty of targets and Whole Foods up there and I am only taking a six liter fanny pack as my only luggage for the whole trip. So I'm going to be up there Saturday, Sunday and Monday, pretty much all day, all three days, and I'm trying to fit. You know I've got to fit a spare pair of socks, a couple pair of underwear, two shirts, and so the march is Sunday.
Dan:No, it is Sunday.
Charles:Okay, good, I was going up there All right, I get up there Saturday morning, come home Monday night. Good yeah, so yeah, I'm going to spend Saturday night and Sunday night in the hotel in Parcipany.
Dan:All right.
Charles:And then I will probably I'll get up fairly early on Saturday morning, I'm sorry, monday morning probably driving to the city, return my rental car and then I may, I may go to one of I was going to say go to one of the co-working spaces I like, but I'm only bringing my phone, I'm not bringing my iPad, I'm not bringing my laptop. So I mean you can sit down and use your phone anywhere. There's no real need to pay for a co-working space.
Charles:Go to Starbucks or something Right, exactly, or the New York Public Library. Yeah, I think I've got. I bought a library card from New York or I signed up for one. They're free for a public library card at the New York Public Library. I've never been in it, though, so this might be a good time to check it out. Absolutely, spend some time doing some work, and, yeah, maybe I'll, maybe I'll buy a notepad and just listen to some stuff and take some notes and take pictures of the notes and throw away the notepad, okay, something like that. But anyway, what, what do you got going on this weekend? You doing anything fun without me?
Dan:This weekend, possibly I might. I might be checking out a museum this weekend in Orlando. Oh yeah, which one Last week? The Illusions.
Charles:Oh yeah, I've been there. It's fun, yeah, yeah.
Dan:I haven't been Want to check that out and last week I got to drive for the first time a car or vehicle that I've admired for many years Every time I've gone to some sort of car show or airplane show the Polaris slingshot, and that, yeah, that was. That was a great time. I had no idea how noisy they actually are. It's really is a motorcycle, jen, underneath, but they are marine safe, so you can hose down the whole thing and it can get caught in the rain. And there's no, there's no roof to it or anything.
Charles:So there's no real interior to it either. Right, it's like a motorcycle.
Dan:There is an interior, but everything's hard plastic, so it's like ABS, like hard plate, like like it was a boat basically, and so, yeah, I can totally get wet. So yeah, I got to. I got to drive one last weekend with a friend and had a really great time on the highway. The bad part is it's so loud you can't hear the music, so it kind of takes away a little bit of the experience of, you know, enjoying it.
Dan:So I'm sure they've got models now where it's not. It's not quite as loud. I haven't looked into those, but yeah, so that was. It was really great time and I'm looking forward to relaxing a little bit this weekend and go up to the RV. I'm going to do a little bit more self reflection, working on, working on some of the my the project grounded man stuff that I'm involved with, and and just kind of, yeah, working on myself and getting close to nature, and I'm going to be doing that a little bit this weekend as well.
Charles:So that sounds fun. I am.
Charles:I've already scheduled the truck rental for my eventual move from the Sanford Sorrento area to Newsom Urna Beach on November 1st and I'm looking forward to that, and I mean I'm not looking forward to moving. Moving is always a hassle, but I am also planning on next weekend and finishing some pro projects around my camper, with doing some painting, doing some work on the floors and maybe, if I, if those go quickly and and and well enough, I may also repair my or swap out my the ceiling assembly on my air conditioner so that I can have the programmable Bluetooth one that will also include the. It'll also include a heater, which my current one does not. If I want to run the heat, I have to run the propane furnace currently okay where the new one will have an electrical heating solution built right into the ceiling air conditioner, so I'll be able to. Yeah, I'm trying to lower my reliance on propane.
Charles:One project that I'm debating taking on is installing an electric hot water heater so that I could run it off. Run the hot water heater off a propane or electric Okay, and you know the electric one takes a bit longer to heat up, but you can also always just leave it on and not worry that you know if you run out of propane you're gonna have a cold shower, yeah, yeah.
Charles:So I'm thinking about doing that, that project at some point as well, or finding a professional that I could pay to do the project for me. Why are you gonna start now? It's true, yeah, that's what YouTube's for it. Yeah, yeah, the YouTube video definitely helped me with, you know, that small fire situation that I had where the plug that connects to the power outlet at the campground caught on fire and they called me and told me while I was out of town and I had to, they cut the line for me. So I had to figure out how to put a new plug on the end and one thing that occurred to me is this new replacement plug is not going to fit inside that little hole that you you feed the plug back into when it's too big. So I don't know exactly what that looks like. I imagine what it looks like is me just probably duct taping it to the side of the camper while I move.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And big deal. And when I get to the place I'll take the duct tape off and it'll be done, right? Or I may look and see is there a smaller plug where I just take the old one off and put the new one on? Yeah, but you know, do I want to deal with that or do I want to just do it the easy way? Time will tell. Probably the easy way, probably All right. So you're ready to get into the next couple chapters here. Yes, sir, all right. Dan, you should know that your lover is not your mother.
Dan:Why didn't you tell me this? I don't know 40 years ago, something like that. I mean, I really could have used that advice a lot sooner than I figured out myself.
Charles:It's interesting to think about the different experiences that men have when they assign values from the experience they had growing up with their mom to their, to their partners, and how that is going to always bite you in the butt when you do it. I would wager that most men have the experience of I'm going to assume that my partner is going to love me unconditionally and always be there for me, like my mother, and and I'm going to add to that caretaking, take care of my needs, right, and what?
Dan:of course, why else would we think we don't have? I mean, very few of us have another model growing up of an interaction with a woman and the only other model we might have is maybe with a sister or an aunt. Aunt is still kind of like a mom, sister, you're just kind of teasing back and forth. That's more like a buddy or a friend. So that's that type of relationship. So we don't.
Dan:You know, that's why I think we have so many, we struggle so much in relationships with men and women is because we I know I'm guilty of getting in a relationship, getting getting lazy and and getting comfortable. And or I should say, you know, being comfortable and making assumptions like, yeah, she's always going to love me and unconditionally, and and that's just what, how women are and they're always sweet, it doesn't really matter so much what I do or what I don't do. And and at the beginning, yeah, you're putting your best foot forward and you're kind of careful until, until you kind of get in a relationship and then you kind of, all right, oh, we've got a commitment. Now, I mean, she's going to like love me unconditionally and I can just take my foot off the accelerator and I don't need to do anything. And, man, I've done that way too many times and it hasn't worked out for me.
Dan:And so and also hasn't been enjoyable for me either.
Charles:Okay, yeah, that's a good reason.
Dan:You know it's and and and right and not just not. Not, it's not not enjoyable because the relationship didn't work out as part of it. But you know, the the in being in those types of relationships was not enjoyable. Where there's, the excitement kind of goes away and and there's no, there's a lot less effort and thinking and and you know, yeah, I mean it comes. You don't need to do quite as much at the very beginning, you know, in the relationship as you did at the beginning, but at the same time you know have those date nights, those you know, plan those vacations and those that time away with that person and and make it a priority so that you are being intentional with the types of things that you're doing. Just the same way you plan your work or anything else that you're doing, put some time and effort and planning into your relationship and and things for that.
Charles:Along those lines, yeah, I don't remember if it was Andrew Farabee or Corey Wayne that said you know that we, we fall into this trap of just because you hear I love you. Every day it feels like, okay, my job's done, I won, I won the girl, so I get to stop. I get to stop winning the girl, I already won her. Yep, my job is done.
Charles:Yeah, I come at it from a different perspective, which is probably fairly rare, but it may resonate with some people and so I want to share it. I come at relationships with a partner based on the experience I had with my mother of love is always conditional and she is never going to be there for you. And so, from my perspective, it's every day you have to wake up and earn her love or, in some cases, when I'm at my worst, trick her into loving you by pretending to be something you're not. And if you let that facade crack in the slightest, if she gets mad at you, if she gets upset, if she gets disappointed with you, then you're constantly on the verge of losing her. So you can't ever let that happen.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And so that is another model that guys could have to deal with, where it's like. You know it leads to this a lot of the same behaviors, though from from the guy yeah, and it's, it's, it's working too much to. I mean, they're both a failure of authenticity. You know both the I'm comfortable and I assume you're going to love me forever, so now I get to cruise and not not be the hardworking romantic man that you got involved in. Or you know, I'm constantly at work trying to manipulate this relationship and trying to manipulate this woman into sticking around for one more day with me. If I can get her to stay around one more day, then that's another day that I can convince her that I'm good enough.
Dan:And the ironic part is, when you're doing that, you are continually diminishing your own value with yourself and with her and her eyes.
Charles:Yeah, it's the opposite of intimacy.
Dan:Because because you're basically saying me and and my presence is not enough, right, I have to do all these things, and a lot of times you're doing things that you wouldn't want to do, you're doing things that she wants to do, and so you are basically then saying, hey, listen, I'm going to bend over backwards, you know and and do all these things, even though it makes me uncomfortable and I'm unhappy doing them, but because I'm not enough, I have to do these, I have to be here and I have to do these things in order for you to just be with me.
Dan:Right and and be in your and be in your presence as as he talked as he talked about bask, in your glory or your presence Right.
Charles:And there's and there's also versions of that that are more negative and more confrontational, in that, uh, oh, you're upset with me. No, you're not. Here's why you shouldn't be, here's why, here's why the thing that you're bothered by is, is no reason to be upset, and then talking, talking her out of her feelings, because, yeah, just living with the idea that she's upset or disappointed can't handle that. So now I have to, I have to tell her why she's, why she's not, yeah, and so I mean, yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of patterns that, uh, you know, I, I have mommy dearest to thank, but you know, as, as we often say, uh, the negative things that happen to you are not your fault, but they're your responsibility to deal with it today, yeah, and so that's that's where. That's where the work comes in that I do on a weekly, daily basis to try to get over some of these things, because they are not serving me, nor are they serving my partners.
Dan:And that's great that you are at least aware of them and taking action, and not just doing research.
Charles:Yes, I'm guilty, that'll be two.
Dan:I feel like I'm doing stuff just by reading books and talking about them, having conversations, but actually taking steps and maybe going the therapy or going to a 12 step program, or or, you know, taking actions, um, you know getting, you know, starting a new workout or changing what we're eating. Or going to a doctor or a nutritionist and see, hey, maybe there's some, some supplements I should be taking. A lot of times we don't do that because it's uncomfortable. It takes more energy and we want to. We want to conserve energy.
Charles:Yeah, and I mean, you know, reading, reading or listening to a book, it's not nothing. Or a podcast, or podcast, it's not. It's not doing nothing, but it's also, um, you know, as, as we've talked about on on a recent episode, it's not the when it comes to rewiring your brain, your reward systems and your attachment style, and it's not. It's not as easy as just exposing yourself to new information. There's. Exposure to new information does not make these personality level changes in people.
Dan:Yeah, I think it's much more difficult to do that. What I'm seeing in terms of a pattern here is for me specifically and I think probably for most people too, I would say is the more senses we, more of our five senses, we can involve in that new behavior, the easier it's going to be for us to start to naturally gravitate and and and use that behavior or, or, you know, be change. Right, because we're getting the sensory input from different, you know, from multiple different ways, right? So it's not just listening to something, it, it's actually all right, I'm going to listen to this and I'm going to write down my thoughts about this and then I'm also going.
Dan:So now I'm, I've got, I've got the feel, I've got the audible. Right now, I've got the feel, and now, all right, maybe I'll go to a therapist. And so now I'm talking. So I've got the, the, the I'm, I'm expressing, to know communication in that way too. So a multi pronged approach, I feel, is going to be the quickest way. Nothing you can't get there from another way, but it's going to be a lot more difficult.
Charles:Yeah, I said in either the episode we released this week or the one I'm editing this week. You know, looking at mental health memes on Instagram is helpful. I mean it's, it's make. It makes you better, not worse. But you know, unless you're planning on living for three or 400 years that's how long that's how long looking at memes and listening to podcasts is probably going to take for you to improve your mental health.
Charles:Where, if you're like the rest of us and you've got 75, 85, 95 years and then you're done, it's like you know the the older you get, the more important it is to start working on this stuff in ways that you can actually move the needle in a much shorter time horizon.
Charles:Yeah and yeah, that's that's that does feel like the the most valuable approach. So in this, in this chapter, he does basically say and again he's targeting guys that have had an experience probably more like yours with their mom, where it's like, yeah, you're, you're her flesh and blood, it's her job to take care of you and there's not really much you can do to get her to sort of wash her hands and check out. So you the fact that you, the woman you spend so much time with as a kid is has that agenda of taking care of you no matter what and keeping you alive, keeping you healthy then you're going to assume that other women have that same level of commitment to you, and that would be a that would be a foolish assumption to make, and yet we all, most of us tend to make that assumption. One thing I will say is you know he starts hitting the, the term of hypergamy, pretty early in this book.
Dan:I was just going to address that with you.
Charles:That that's gotten to be a bit of a trigger word for me, because I I feel like you know this paralysis by analysis. So many men, particularly online, tend to, you know, hyper-focus on words like hypergamy and the nature of women. And so hypergamy is this idea that a woman women made up, they want to mate with men of higher status than themselves, and if you start behaving in a way that communicates a lower status, then they're going to start looking for a man of higher status to dump you and go to.
Dan:Right. So and I want to just make sure that we all understand, when you said made up, I thought you said made up, it's mate Made up.
Charles:Yes, yes, made up.
Dan:But he does state something in here in terms of defining hypergamy which changes that from not being so triggering for me. So he says basically, hypergamy also states that if a woman senses weakness in a man, they'll look to fill the void with another man of superior strength. So to me, when you know, yeah, hypergamy is being thrown around as basically I feel like a lot of times, an excuse, guys use to say, oh well, women are just hypergamous and they're always going to be trading me for the next guy.
Dan:Well, no, I mean, what I took away from that was yeah, if you are, you aren't doing your part as a man in the relationship. Right, she's going to look to replace you, and that, I mean it goes both ways. If she wasn't, she wasn't doing her part as a woman in the relationship, then yeah, you would. You would want to leave it as well.
Charles:And so it's true for my lawyer, my accountant, the your job. Somebody's not doing their job, the job they agreed to do and the way that they agreed to do it, then I'm going to start looking for other options to get that job done.
Dan:And listen, weakness. And when he says weakness here, I mean I'll be honest with you, I don't know many. I don't know many women who are looking to adopt another child. When they get in a relationship with a man, right, that's the last thing they want is to have to take care of somebody. And look, I mean exclusively. Yes, it goes back and forth. You know, at times the woman is going to take care of the man, the man's going to take care of the woman in different situations. Absolutely, and that's the way I view it. If somebody, yeah, so I to me. You know, when I and that's the first time I saw hypergamy defined that way, and so now it's not such a trigger word for me anymore in terms of hey, look, yeah, it's, it's just, it seems just like kind of common sense to me.
Charles:Yeah, I. I guess the reason that that it triggers me is because of the way that I see it used so frequently by men where it's oh, I see, yeah, yeah. And the reason that I stopped that's initiated by a woman is it's not the result of, you know, I stopped listening to her, I stopped making her feel safe, I stopped dating her, I stopped being romantic. No, that's not the reason the breakup happened. The reason the breakup happened is because of hypergamy. She decided to. You know, she had an opportunity to trade up. So it's it's. It's used as a tool for a lot of men to not take responsibility for where they've dropped the ball in the relationship.
Dan:It supports a victim mindset. So basically, yeah, if I'm not going to take responsibility for anything, so again, nothing is 100% your fault or 100% somebody else's fault. But at the same time, take some responsibility and look to yourself. Hey, are there any things that you could have done differently? Maybe, maybe not, but at least take the time and don't just get lazy and and and blank at the statement oh yeah, it's because she's hypergamous. And then again, not, how? What were you doing? Again, it's almost the same thing we're talking about with the Barbie episode too. We're talking about, you know, the patriarchy, right? Well, let's get. Let's get granular here, right, let's not. Let's not just throw that term around. In what situation? What was going on? Let's, like you said, get curious about that and see, see where we can understand each other and maybe where there's room for improvement.
Charles:Yeah, I, I agree with you and I would say that in every, every relationship that ends, every breakup that is initiated by the woman, the other partner is going to have some level of responsibility, and I would say it comes down to one of two things either you were a suboptimal partner, or you were a suboptimal picker, and it's, it's always going to be part of that breakup happen for one of those two reasons. In every case that either I or any close, any person close to me has been involved in, either the guy was a bad picker, or he was a bad partner, or little both, or a little both or a lot of both right yeah, fair.
Charles:And that's, that's what it comes down to. And you know, every, yeah every time that I've had friends usually when I was younger or when I was older, and they were younger that had a lot of animosity and were willing to talk trash about their ex, I always would remind, like you know, you picked her you, you chose to be with her. So every, every negative word you're saying about her, you're also saying about your ability to choose a partner, and so maybe, maybe, quiet down a little bit and start looking at you know what role you played in either picking the wrong partner or being the wrong.
Dan:Well, I bet you, what they would say to you is oh well, she changed right and but at the same time. I don't know how accurate that is and it's possible. But if you aren't regulating your emotions and you get kind of caught up in the moment and, you know, kind of get swept up with stuff, you're going to miss some, some important things. Yeah, you know things are going to get swept under the rug.
Charles:Yeah. So the takeaway I think for this chapter is um, don't assume that once you get a woman into a committed relationship, your job is done and she's going to love you and want to be with you forever. I mean, she may love you forever, but she's not necessarily going to want to be with you forever If you're not still making good on the promises you made, either directly or indirectly, when you were actively dating and trying to win her.
Dan:Yeah, and what you, what's the expression? What you, what you meet somebody with, is what you need to maintain, basically, like, so what you win them with is what you win them to. There you go and and and. So if you're not keeping that up in some capacity, then yeah, you. At that point you have to look in the mirror.
Charles:Yeah, all right, let's talk about uh, never follow a woman's lead, which you know the little sensational, of course, title for this chapter.
Charles:Um, this one is talking about the fact that, uh, sometimes women can get a little bit caught up in the coordinating the dating process and, uh, that can trigger a response in a woman where she gets very romantic, very affectionate, and uh looks to accelerate your pairing in a way that may not be the best thing for the relationship and, um, it's caught up in her emotions.
Charles:Yeah, and and this is as men certainly do in the, in the setting of a new relationship as well yeah, and the. The advice that I think would almost count for both men and women in a relationship is try to be the partner that's going a little bit slower, and there's gotta be, there's gotta be one adult in the situation that is willing to say let's put the brakes on a little bit and let's take this slowly and let's focus on figuring out if this is the right relationship for both of us, instead of just both of us being slaves to our hormones. Yeah, and uh, you know, letting our brains bathe in that dopamine and oxytocin flood, and uh, yeah, let's, let's, let's cool this down a little bit and and have some observe what's happening and not just feel and believe everything the minute our brain sends us the signal.
Dan:Yeah, and I think these days it's it's difficult to. It's really difficult to do that because a lot of us are anxious, have anxiety, have stress, and so the and we may not be doing all the self care things that we should be doing for ourselves, right. And so now when we meet somebody and we feel that dopamine hit and the oxytocin it's a relief. It's not. It's not only does it feel good in and of itself, but now we are coming from a place of where we were really stressed out, and so the value of that person and the relationship and the things that you're doing with them just gets in our minds and our feelings just gets elevated to the point of it really makes a a more impactful experience, and so we might get even more caught up and make even worse decisions too soon. So, yeah, these it's really difficult to to not go too quickly.
Charles:Yeah, it is, and I I mean Ariel and I got together. We went from being friends to being a couple in the early days of COVID, and so you know interesting yeah. And so you know I forgot about that in the timing of the high stress environment that COVID was putting all of us in. I mean having having someone close to and someone that you could feel like you could depend on and be be tied to and connected.
Dan:Yes, you know all cause. Every day it was like something else.
Charles:Yeah, like, are we going to be allowed to go back to the gym, to the grocery store, to the? You know we're going to have to stand in line outside of Walmart until they get down to a you know a low enough number of customers that I can go inside and shop.
Dan:I mean all that stuff all those changes day to day, all those changes.
Charles:Yeah, I'm sure that you know, in in high stress situations, whether it's pandemics or wars or whatever, I feel like the human instinct is to accelerate this courting process and and bond to someone as quickly as you can.
Dan:I thought we were reading or listening to something that said that more babies are born during wartime. You don't remember what it was, but yes, right, and it was because people are are stressed and probably, I think, maybe, maybe they're hunkering down or whatever They'll be closer to each other. Closer to each other but also feeling stressed and, you know, could be a, you know that that relief of uh that, that sex provides.
Charles:Yeah, yeah. So that's, um, yeah, I think, when you're, when you're in a high anxiety, high stress situation, and then you meet someone and you connect to that someone and you start getting those those pleasant hormones and chemicals that are telling you, hey, maybe everything is going to be okay and yeah, you want to push to move that relationship forward as quickly as you possibly can and as tightly as you can. And, uh, that's, that's an instinct that we would probably be best. Both partners would be best served by just eating more chocolate, just slowing it down and putting the brakes on a little bit and say, okay, let's, let's do this deliberately, let's, let's build a foundation here that an actual relationship can be built on, instead of just giving into our, our hormones and as quickly as we can.
Dan:And, that being said, now that the whole world is hearing this podcast and taking our advice, when you're in this relationship and somebody does slow things down, communicate. Don't just get upset like, oh, they're pulling away from me and and things are really bad. You know, keep, keep. You know don't. If somebody is going a little bit slower, that's that is going to cause some tension and and anxiety in that other person, and my best piece of advice is talk about it.
Dan:Don't just, you know, make assumptions or, you know, start acting a certain way or even if you think you're, you're, you can handle it, you're com, cool and collected, that's horseshit. It's going to come out, trust me, I've been on both sides of that where you're going to be feeling anxious, and it's going to. You're going to come out and be a little bit resentful for that person. And it might come out in other ways that you know might be just like you know, like told you to get the brown rice, god damn it. Like you know, and then like you're freaking out over something that's going to be totally not related. You know, yeah, but um, yeah. So don't be afraid to say hey, listen, I still care about you, but you know, I feel like things are moving a little too quickly. You know, let's, you know, let's, let's, let's give it some time, let's have some more experiences together and really just kind of get to know each other before we start, you know, carving our names into the side of a tree, Right?
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:Or get tattoos of each other's names, you know.
Charles:Yes, and I would say you know, I like to think that every, every relationship that I'm I'm in, I can take some valuable lessons away and, um, the most recent one that ended, I think, the. The lesson to learn there was the need for being able to give and receive space. I think that was the. The biggest thing that I learned was you know when, whether it's you know, you're having an argument and one partner is like okay, I'm, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed, I think we should take a break and come back and talk about this in an hour. And you know, again, because of some of the early childhood traumas that I dealt with, it's like hold on a second. No, if you, if I let you out of my sight now, you're never going to come back, so I can't tolerate that. So let's keep fighting.
Charles:Yeah, I mean that that would be my response usually in that scenario. And again, it did not, it did not serve me or or my partner, and that that seems to be the. The biggest lesson I took away was no, the, the need for space. It's got to be something that you're able to give and receive without, you know, going into chicken little mode, where it feels like the sky's falling on you and so, yeah, and and that's being able to introduce a little bit of healthy space at the beginning of the relationship will set the tone for the rest of the relationship. And you know, being able to whether you're the one that's asking for space or you're the one being asked for space being able to handle that with some resilience and some and some calm is, is, is something, is a tool you're going to be able to use for as long as you and that person are together.
Dan:Yeah, and and I mean very few things, with exception of, like moving across the country are hindered by giving a little bit more space and taking a little bit more time right. So it's an investment in the health of the relationship by giving people that that time to process properly and just like you know when, when you're overtired, you know you're not thinking right, Same thing, you know, same thing with, if you're arguing in the middle of a you know argument, argument, argument, things like that.
Dan:So, yeah, absolutely give that time and space to to yourself as well, you know you may, you may not even realize, you might be in the heat of the battle. You know, and, and, and. If somebody gives you you know, hey, that's an opportunity there. In a pause, think through some things and actually try to understand. You've got now that that space to to listen and comprehend, instead of just living in the emotional moment.
Charles:Yeah, and I would say at a couple's healthiest. Both partners realize that when one asks for a break or for some space, that is, that is a net win for both of you, that's a gift. Yes, it is a gift.
Dan:Cause somebody has. Yeah, somebody has snapped back into awareness.
Charles:Yeah, They've gotten that front part of their brain involved instead of just their amygdala and and and one of you is yeah. So looking at that as a as a gift is not something that comes naturally for me, but some, you know, a skill that I hope I can develop. So you know again, I, I, I pride myself on on being able to learn from my mistakes and not just repeating the same unhelpful patterns, and that that one's near the top of the list. So another thing that he mentions in this is the impulse that men will often have to no-transcript continue seeing a woman or being in a woman's presence at high personal costs, basically inconveniencing yourself and doing things that you don't really want to do, just so that you can be around her. And in his case study, he does a pretty good job of explaining why saying yes to going out and meeting up with someone you don't really want to it's not just a neutral, it's going to be a negative in your ability to attract excuse me, attract and connect with this person.
Dan:Yeah and put yourself in the other position, right? So if you were in another position and say a woman or anybody at that point was bending over backwards and you knew it was going to be inconvenient or that they didn't really like doing what you know what you guys are planning on doing and you were on the other side of that, be honest with yourself. Would you continue to respect that person, knowing that they were suffering almost and feeling really uncomfortable without a good reason, like if there was a once in a while thing or if you was an emergency and you needed somebody to do something? That's different, it's an exception, it's not the rule. But if you're consistently seeing somebody do those things, to me again I feel like they. I would lose value for them because they don't value themselves. If you don't love yourself, who else is going to love you? You were not, you know.
Charles:Yeah, and not only that. If you're like me and you kind of wear your heart on your face, you know, if you say yes to going to the ballet or going shoe shopping when you really don't want to, you're going to be miserable to be around, right, and it's not going to be fun for either of you. But you're like, well, she's my girlfriend and I haven't gotten to see her this much this week. I'll say yes to whatever thing she wants to do, just so I can be around her. And then you end up resenting her and being miserable the whole time you're with her. That is not a that's not a neutral outcome for the relationship. It's a negative.
Dan:No, and you're also ultimately sacrificing the any type of safety or security that you are providing as a man in that relationship with a woman, because now you are pretending to be something. You're not Right and now she doesn't know. Yeah, she can.
Charles:She can't count on the idea that whenever he's with me, it's because he wants to be with me, and or that that right, correct, and that he so easily sways with the wind based on or, you know, blows with the wind based on. Yeah, this is a guy who can be talked into doing things he doesn't want to do 100%. That's exactly what I was trying to say yeah, and.
Charles:And a guy who can be easily talked into doing things he doesn't want to do is not a guy who's keeping the family safe, keeping the resources, keeping the yeah.
Dan:Right, yeah, and now you're also going back into a child mode. You're also now approvals. You're approvals thinking, but you're also right you are now Not a responsible adult, almost.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean sacrificing, sacrificing what you want, what you enjoy, what makes you feel good, just for the idea of, like you know, I'll be miserable, but at least I'll be in a room with her.
Dan:Right, no, that's not the move Right. And so here's the thing is, a lot of times that's a pattern in childhood, so our parents might have us do things that we don't really want to do, but you know we're not going to like leave the house, you know. I mean once in a while I guess a kid leaves the house, but you know, for the most part you do the chores that you don't want to do and you're miserable but you are. You know that ultimately you need that protection and that safety from your parents, so you do those things and I feel like there's a lot of parallels to you know, doing things you don't want to do and with this assumption that, yeah, you're getting that unconditional love again from your partner and that is, you're setting up, yeah, really dangerous patterns and ways of thinking about the relationship from both sides.
Charles:Yeah, so I agree. And in this chapter he closes out with a case study where he gets a message from a girl that he's interested in at 11pm on a Friday night that says hey, me and a bunch of my friends are going to go to this bar. Why don't you come out? And he's like his own attitude is no, I'm too tired, I don't want to. I mean, going to hang out with a girl that you're interested in and a bunch of her friends is you know?
Dan:Well, did he even know that it was a bunch of her friends? Oh yeah, she said we right, right, she did say we in that scenario, yeah, Sky bar with a friend, come join us.
Charles:So there's at least one other person there. And so this, this idea that you're going to go meet up with a girl who's there with you, meet up with a girl who's there with a friend or multiple friends, and you're going to put on such a performance that she decides she's going to ditch all the people that she planned to go out with that night to go hang out with you. I mean, yeah, that's a thing that could happen, but you know, inconvenience in yourself and getting dressed up and going out on a night where you're too tired to to go out anyway, on the off chance that you might be able to pull that off, it's like the night that you're too tired and you don't feel like going out is the night where you have the worst chance of being able to pull this off in the first place. Yeah, I mean, if he's already out at the bar next door with his friends having a good time and and he, you know he's ready for a, you know it's 11 o'clock, but he's ready for a few more hours of hanging out and drinking and having fun Then yeah, why don't you migrate over to the bar she's at, say hi, hang out with her and her friends a little bit, yeah.
Charles:But this idea of I'm at home, I'm tired, now I'm going to get up, get a shower, get dressed, shave, put on you know, my nice clothes, and all this just on the off chance that maybe I can romance and romance her into going on a date with me or having sex with me that night, yeah. So he, this guy, sets himself up from for failure at the beginning, and then he shows up and she introduces him to this big group of people that he probably didn't know was going to be there, and then he finds himself sort of on the outside of the group just chit-chatting with some guy he doesn't know, and this girl is not giving him the attention or interest that he hoped that she would. Yeah, and so.
Dan:And it turns out that guy was also there to see her Right, exactly. And then the kids.
Charles:Yeah, and so then he basically gets to see her end her night and leave with a friend. Let's see Janice and Kelsey, who's Okay? Yeah, that's just, her friend is another guy, but basically she was there with her friend Kelsey. She invited probably multiple other guys to show up to hang out and then her and her friend leave, and then this guy is stuck wondering why he wasted his time and his energy to go hang out with her. So, yeah, this, this idea that, and then you know basically the, the cost to this, the opportunity cost of. You know, this guy could have been at home laying in bed watching Star Trek, the next generation reruns. He lost out on that Number one most importantly, exactly, but number two he's also.
Charles:Yeah, I'm sure he ended up looking tired or awkward or weird and that is an impression that he's going to leave her with and not be able to, you know, wipe out of her brain.
Dan:Yeah, he probably wears his heart on his face too. I mean, when you're tired, we're all wear our heart on our face, right, basically, yeah.
Charles:And, and so I I've been in situations like that, where it won, in fact recently, where you tried to encourage me to go out there and socialize and and go to a party that I wasn't going to know anybody at and I had to explain to you, dan, it's like, dan, this, this isn't a neutral situation. This is, if I go and I'm annoyed and I'm just playing on my phone because I don't know anybody and I'm being anti social, it's like no, this will this will negatively impact, and there wasn't a particular girl that I was going to see, it was just going to be a group thing. But I was like, no, this will this will devalue me in my own eyes and in the eyes of the group, because I'm just, I'm so desperate to socialize with people that I'm going to go into a situation where I'm not happy, I'm not, I'm not relaxed and, yeah, it's not going to be good for me or for them.
Dan:Yeah, I mean, a good rule of thumb is what, what kind of positive energy can you bring to the situation, rather than get from the situation? So a lot of times I'll go in with the intention of of you know, bringing some positive energy, and a lot of times, most of the time, I end up getting positive energy from, from the interactions. The question is and I think mostly because it's what I invested into it and came in with that intention, I was able to then generate that out, whereas in the past, where I've gone out because of some sort of sense of obligation or some friend talked me into it, right, and I'd show up a lot of times, yet it wasn't nearly as fun or beneficial for me.
Dan:So if I, you know, I, I saw that you made a great point and I agree with you. If you can't set that intention and you know to bring that energy Now, again, you don't need to go in there and go. All right, I'm going to come in with the life of the party, but at least come in neutral or better and being open to new experiences and new energy and meeting new people and and and providing a little something to it, rather than being an energy vampire.
Charles:Yeah, and but also think about the positive way that you can set yourself apart from other men by saying you know, that doesn't sound like my kind of fun or that doesn't sound like something I'm up for tonight, but have a good time, maybe you and I can catch up some other time. Yeah, because you know, in the case of a relatively attractive woman, she's not going to be hearing that very often. What she's used to is guys putting their own comfort and their own preferences to the side just to bask in her glory, and so when you're the guy who's like man, it doesn't seem like my kind of thing, but maybe you and I can, you know, meet for coffee next week sometime. That that's, that's the message that she's probably not used to hearing very often and that will will set you apart in her eyes.
Dan:Yeah, I mean. It means you value yourself as a human being, and if you don't value yourself, again I can beat in a dead horse here. Who else is going to value you? Why would she value you? Same thing in terms of enforcing boundaries, and I had a conversation with somebody about that recently If you're not going to enforce your boundaries, then why would anybody else?
Charles:Yeah, I mean they're.
Dan:If you're not willing to enforce it, then it's not a boundary, it's a preference, that's yeah, and then and you're teaching people indirectly that you don't respect yourself and so they're going to not respect you when you say these things. Yeah.
Charles:Yeah, no, exactly All right. How about you ever try to win a gal over by buying her presence, dan?
Dan:Oh, wow, oh, I have. Fortunately that was elementary school and high school Same and I kind of got out of that in college. Yeah, I I, that was an early one that I figured out didn't work.
Charles:It took me a little bit longer to get over it, but yeah, I would say, probably early twenties I got, I got cured of that. Yeah, why, why doesn't it work? I mean everybody who, everybody who sells nice things that women like, tells us it works.
Dan:So yeah Well so I mean there's a difference. So really, the the the fine part is you don't. You don't lead with that, right? It's like an occasional way to say I love you or I was thinking about you, I think is fine. But to to come to the table and say, here's me.
Dan:And, for example, I got a girl, a swatch, when I was in elementary school that I had to crush on, you know, and I thought, oh, I'll get her and and she'll, you know she'll, she'll want to be with me or hold my hand or be my boyfriend, girlfriend or whatever you know. And so you're, you're diminishing your own value. Same thing. Same thing with the whole respecting yourself. It's, it's, it's. You aren't enough by yourself, it's hey, I need to buy your love. And you're also. Then, like we just talked about, what you lead with is what you got to maintain. So now let's say you don't really know then, is it the gifts that she likes and it loves, or is it you or is it a little bit of both? Now you've got more questions. Who wants more questions in life? Nobody, nobody should, right.
Charles:We want clarity. Yeah, that reminds me of an interesting quote I heard this week. I think it was Tony Robbins that said it originally the quality of your life is determined by the quality of questions you ask yourself. I like it, I do too, and, yeah, I. Yeah, he's got an event coming up in Dallas in November.
Charles:I don't think I'm going to go to that, but I think I am going to set a goal to go to his next, his entry level event, upw, and leech the power within. Okay, looks like he's doing one or two physical ones a year now and I might be up for that, I think for 2024, when he releases his schedule. I think right now they're kind of focusing on selling the ones coming up. Yeah, but when the schedule is out I may want to travel to wherever he's doing one.
Charles:Ideally, he's going to do one, his date with destiny event, which is the expensive one that lasts like five days, and I think he runs that whole one himself personally, where the UPW he has like other guys, that guys and gals that contribute Date with destiny, is like five days and like six grand. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that one, at least not unless I get a ton of value out of the cheaper one first. You know what I mean, yeah, but yeah, he has a lot of good things to say and I would definitely like to check out one of his events. Okay, so when it comes to here's what I'll say about buying gifts I tend to limit gift buying to things that I give a woman, I give her that we will both enjoy, such as an experience like going to dinner, or I mean taking her along on a vacation. That honestly sounds so appealing to me. I would go by myself.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Buying her nice clothes that I would enjoy seeing her wear, or enjoy being seen with her while she's wearing, or buying her the kind of clothes that nobody gets to see except me Like buying those as a gift as well. I would say that. Well, I'll get into this a little bit later. Let's talk about the case study. So there's a couple, luke and Jess, that have a tradition of celebrating Valentine's Day together. One year, luke gives Jess excuse me, jess her present, and she's forgotten that it's Valentine's Day, so she has no present for him. His response to that was to smile and tell her that it was no big deal and nothing to worry about. So, as we'll read later in the scenario, that was a lie. He lied to her because he didn't want to share his true feelings, so we'll call that mistake number one. Later that evening, during a romantic candlelit dinner, he barely said a word until after he had finished his meal. So he's acting out based on his feelings being hurt. We could call that mistake number two. Then he takes a deep breath and tells her that he needed to get something off his chest. He proceeded to tell her how much he had hurt his feelings.
Charles:Valentine's Day was a tradition they kept alive for four years and it was an important milestone. And she again apologized and told Luke how much he loved him. I don't believe that was a mistake. I think it was a good move for him to get it off his chest to say, hey, this is bothering me. Agreed. Unfortunately, her declaration of love wasn't enough to calm him down. I can't believe this. He thought I've given her so much, bought her gifts, booked and paid for dinner, and she can't even remember what day it is. As they drove home, luke continued to berate Jess for ruining such a special day.
Dan:Okay, so there's Maybe a mistake there, you think.
Charles:Maybe a huge mistake there, and so her response is she puts her head against the window, closed her eyes and just wishes he would shut up and get over it. How many more times did she have to listen to him complain about the same thing over and over again Later that night they're laying in bed. Luke tried to kiss her on the lips to bridge the distance. Are you okay? He asked.
Dan:So right there, another mistake, because he's asking for something instead of giving value. If he is trying to bridge the gap Right.
Charles:He should have led with. I'm sorry, that whole part in the car where I kept going over this over and over again. That was a mistake. I apologize.
Dan:And he is kissing her with the intention of trying to get something out of her and change her and like again yeah, I think you gotta be very careful in terms of whether you and he's then I think he's also have a little bit of a covert contract with that by kissing to bridge the gap instead of having the conversation about it, like you just said, right like, let's acknowledge the ways that I mishandled the situation.
Charles:I mean, he mishandled it in several ways and the way to bridge the gap is to acknowledge at least one of the things that you did wrong. Acknowledge that, hey, at the very beginning, when I said this was no big deal, that was a mistake. I shouldn't have said that. Or when you apologized for it, after I told you how much it hurt me, you apologized for it. I should have accepted your apology and moved on. Or when I was still having some feelings about this in the car ride home, I should have just gone back to the fact that you apologized sincerely for it and I should have just felt like that was okay.
Dan:And I've been there and I've struggled to think that at that high level, in those emotional situations.
Charles:Me too, absolutely.
Dan:And that's why it's so important that you've got good friends and then you've got other people in your life and in your social circle to be able to contact and work through some of those things and not necessarily just react to them with the person in the moment, not saying that's any easier, but at the same point, if you don't even have those people, you've got no other outlet. You've got no other outlet and you're just gonna get. You make the situation worse.
Charles:Okay, so a minute passed before she rolled over and told Luke that she wasn't in the mood to have sex. She excused herself and went to the bathroom. And then she comes back from the bathroom and he's in the fetal position, crying because he thinks that she doesn't love him anymore. And yeah, this is a guy whose reaction has spiraled out of control because of his anxiety and it's really anxiety that he brought on himself by not recognizing and labeling and sharing his feelings in the moment and letting things kind of just build up and do the roller coaster all night.
Dan:And another thing he could have done in that situation to relieve some of that anxieties just go for a walk, just movement. Physical movement relieves anxiety or at least will give you that space and time, if nothing else it'll also. Yeah, so there's absolute scientific evidence that shows that by doing physical movement and squeezing muscles, that absolutely will release proper hormones to help you think more clearly, but as well as giving more time for you to kind of process things and bring that anxiety level down. So if you don't have another person to talk to go for a walk, do something physical, just do some pushups, whatever that is. Be active before re-engaging into the situation.
Charles:And I would say also and this is even harder to do than taking the break to be physical is another thing that cures anxiety is taking ownership and verbalizing to yourself and another person that, hey, this night didn't go the way that I had hoped it would, and my behavior absolutely plays a part in that and I'm sorry that it didn't go the way that both of us were hoping. And I understand that you're not in the mood. I love you goodnight, and then just go to sleep and then see how you feel in the morning. That would have put off some of the anxiety as well. But just the curling up and crying and you don't love me anymore, making a grand emotional declaration like you understand exactly what's going on in her head, and you're gonna tell her how she's feeling, not the move and look, I'm not bagging on this fictional man here in this, he's not.
Charles:All this stuff has happened to me at some point, me too, and so I get where this is coming from. But yeah, and I got the same results he did, which is eventually he gets, the relationship ends and she finds herself with somebody else and then she puts a little test on this new partner to see how he's gonna handle it and he handled it better. Now the part of this story that gets a little ridiculous is basically on Valentine's Day she reaches out to the new boyfriend and he's like what are we gonna do tonight? And he's like sorry, I already got plans. She's like, but it's Valentine's Day. He's like oh, I didn't realize it. I guess there are people in the world who don't live by a calendar the way that you and I do. But I mean, rasha Shana doesn't sneak up on me, and I'm not even Jewish, much less Valentine's Day when I'm in a relationship with somebody.
Dan:You can't avoid that, right. So here's the thing. I am gonna critique this story a little bit, because the beginning that was her excuse. She didn't realize it was Valentine's Day either and I was about to say is how the hell living in this world?
Charles:in the Western. It's nonsense.
Dan:Right, you don't know it's Valentine's Day now, or you're living a life of chaos, right, so right. So now, here, this is where. But this is where it can get tricky. So sometimes, when Valentine's Day falls, like during the week, like are you gonna celebrate it and maybe you don't communicate that well, and maybe somebody it's like the 12th is, or the 11th is a Friday or a Saturday or whatever, and so maybe somebody does something a little bit earlier than the other person because it wasn't communication and they're not prepared yet, or whatever.
Dan:So it can happen and it has happened to me.
Charles:Yeah, but I don't think it's happened.
Dan:It's part of like you wanna have, like a surprise.
Charles:I don't think it's happened to me Again. Even minor holidays don't really sneak on me, because a combination of my career and the way that I plan my recreational time it's just like dates don't. Yeah, holidays don't sneak up on me. It's like I'm on Google Calendar all of them are on there and it's again. I don't know when this book was written in. It requires a little bit of suspension of disbelief, as they say in the theater, to imagine that these two people both got surprised by Valentine's Day, and on two separate occasions.
Dan:Yeah, 2017, so that's when it was first published.
Charles:Yeah, that's not old enough to?
Dan:Definitely not no, we had calendars in 2017, I'm sure, exactly.
Charles:All right. So here's some stuff that he says that I'll disagree with. Only the weak and insecure man feels the need to buy gifts in a desperate attempt to win a woman's approval. I'll agree with that. I mean, if you're buying gifts in a desperate attempt, number one is don't make any desperate attempts to do anything. Don't do anything desperately and don't do things to win someone's approval. I here's the part I disagree with. The only time you should consider buying gifts for women is not, as is commonly thought, on typical gift giving days like birthdays, christmas Day, valentine's Day and anniversaries. Like if you enter a relationship and you say okay, I know we've been seeing each other for six or seven weeks and you've brought up the idea of us being exclusive and I'm down for that. I think that's a good idea, let's do it. But just so you know, don't expect any gifts on Christmas, valentine's Day, anniversary or birthdays.
Dan:Good luck with that.
Charles:Yeah, I that seems. That's ridiculous to me. I mean, you could set the expectation of listen. I don't go over the top on giving gifts on holidays. So if you're, I don't expect you to be buying me expensive jewelry. You shouldn't expect it from me either. You know, on Valentine's Day, get somebody maybe a nice card and some fairly inexpensive flowers. But you know the idea I'm going to buy you a diamond tennis bracelet for Valentine's Day. No, that's ridiculous. You know I have a heavy bias toward experiences over physical things anyway, in both receiving and giving gifts. So for me I'm going to take somebody out for a nice dinner on Valentine's Day, that's what I do I really at.
Dan:The older I get, the more I realize how important love languages are. So, you know, I'm I'm same way. I'm more about experiences. But you know, you know, my love language is definitely physical touch and words of affirmation. It is not, it is not gift. So even if somebody gives me a gift yeah, I'm not, it's not doesn't mean as much to me as if you were to like write me a card and tell me yes, I think what you know, what you like about me, or the relationship or whatever, that is so much more valuable to me that I would say.
Charles:For me it is to.
Dan:I'm in tennis bracelet when I see, when I see when I don't play tennis anymore. Right, you know. I mean, where am I going to wear that?
Charles:Honestly, yeah, I would, I would agree with you and I would say that, yes, a a card with a heartfelt message for me, and I used to think that and maybe it was that receiving gifts was my love language. I've I've pretty much let go of that idea that that's my love language. It really isn't it, I think it could be like.
Charles:That's the whole thing is that it's just different, different, different not compared to words of affirmation, with the primary is yeah, and in physical touch, those two are head and shoulders above all the other ones for me, and I think I think most men probably fit into that category.
Dan:What's interesting was and I don't, I don't remember they probably talked about in this book, but I you know, of course I've got spotty memory with certain things but I didn't realize that till recently, or re remembered that there's language, love languages that help you understand when you are feeling loved, but then there's also the love languages that you use to express your love.
Charles:And those aren't necessarily the same. Yeah, those aren't necessarily the same. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I definitely that's. That's true in my case. I I like to give gifts, to express love, at a far greater degree than I like to receive them.
Dan:I feel like you also, though, do access service.
Charles:That's true too, yeah.
Dan:And I know, I know that you, yeah, you, you're really good with the access service and stuff, and so, yeah, and that's that's where I feel a lot of people have miscommunications and aren't necessarily partnered up, because I think it's very difficult to change your love language.
Dan:I feel like that's part of your identity and I think that's where a lot of relationships go wrong, is where one person is going well, I've been making an effort, I've been doing all of these things, or saying these things, or yeah, and, and the other person's, like what are you talking about? Like I don't feel loved, and that's because their whole love languages are off kilter, they're not, they're not in sync. And I, you know, and I mean I like to see a study that even once you're made aware that you've got different love languages, how well does it still work out? Right, you know, can you learn to appreciate a different love language? That's a question. I don't know to the point of where you're feeling satisfied and loved, versus just giving it kind of lip service. Oh, I see that you've tried, yeah, but I'm still not feeling it.
Dan:Yeah, I know I appreciate and acknowledge, but I'm not feeling it.
Charles:It would. It would probably require some deliberate effort and some scheduling to say, ok, I know how my partner receives love and it's not the way that I naturally give love. So therefore, I'm going to start putting it on my calendar. You know that I'm going to. You know, if she, if her love language is quality, her receiving language is quality time, then I'm going to put quality time on my calendar. If it's acts of service, then I'm going to put performing acts of service for her on my calendar.
Dan:Yeah, I'm curious to see if both partners were to do that change the way they give love to the way the other person receives love, if that would be enough for them to live a happy, fulfilled type of relationship, or I think it would. Or do you need to partner with someone?
Charles:who naturally receives what you give.
Dan:Yeah, because maybe you're not getting enough satisfaction in terms of the way you're giving that love. You're not getting enough satisfaction back because that's not the way you really want to do it. I don't know how important that is. Well, I would say I mean I would say, continue.
Charles:You know, if, if, if what I'm the strongest and the most natural at doing is giving gifts and acts of service, then even if I'm making an effort to put their receiving language on my calendar, I'm still going to be giving. Well, yeah, that's true, but I'm still also acts of service and giving gifts. And when I'm talking about giving gifts, I'm talking about very small, thoughtful trinkets, not, you know, not buying expensive jewelry. But you know, if I'm at the card section of Target and I see a nice pretty papyrus card that has a cat on it or something that I know she's into and I pick it up and give it to her, and I've only spent a few dollars on it.
Charles:Yeah, I'm going to still be doing stuff like that as part of just how I love another person, and so my my natural giving languages are still going to come through, even if I am putting her receiving languages on my calendar in a deliberate way.
Dan:I'm going to question that that's not actually gifts in terms of a love language. I'm still saying that's acts of service, because if it's like a little thing, you're still it's. It's the effort you're putting into it, right, you're going, you're going to the place, you are picking out something very specific. That's. That is very that you know that she's going to enjoy. You might write a little something. Those are all to me, whereas I can see your point, yeah, where in my mind, and I would be off on all good gifts involve that process, though.
Dan:Well, I don't think so. So I mean I don't know. I mean I need to reread that book. But what when I think of gifts?
Charles:maybe we'll cover it.
Dan:The focus is hey, this is a new car, right Like, or this is a diamond tennis bracelet and it's. It's just a gift. You know where it's.
Charles:To me it's an expensive thing right, you know, I don't have Maybe. Maybe we should cover that. But yeah, it's supposed to be a short book, so I think, yeah, maybe we'll put that on the on the queue. I do agree that unexpected gifts are more appreciated and more valued than just you know it takes a little bit more effort.
Charles:OK, you know we got this date coming up on the calendar that Hallmark says you need to buy me a present. So yeah, I expect my present. Well, I would say, on the big gift giving holidays, that's where you focus on a card that you write out or some meaningful trinket or something like that, and not some big, expensive production. And then you know, save, save the, we've spent a little bit more money on a gift.
Dan:Save that for a surprise, and I think that is probably a better way to go, and it makes a bigger impact too, you know, because it's not expected.
Charles:Absolutely, you know. All right, I think we got through three of them. Yeah, I like, I like that, and we will stop there for today. And then the next one will be attraction grows in space, and I don't know what number episode this is going to be. The one that comes out on Monday will be 99.
Dan:Attraction grows in space. That's why astronauts are so sexy.
Charles:I apologize, I'm in the half for that one.
Dan:Love those cosmonauts.
Charles:Yeah, it's interesting that the idea of relationship space has been on my mind a lot and I'm turning a lot of these chapters into into that. Yeah, I mean this one's called attraction grows in space. So I don't feel like I'm going too far out of my way. But yeah, that and he quotes from Esther Perel a couple times in this chapter. She's brilliant. So I really am a big fan of her work. So, all right, we will talk about that next time. Thanks, dan. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Good luck this weekend, thank you.
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