Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Some of the Worst Advice

• Mindfully Masculine Media LLC | Charles & Dan • Episode 107

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OK, in this episode, we finally close the book (ha!) on "Atomic Attraction" by Christopher Canwell.

To say this book is a "mixed bag" might be an understatement. We feel that it's starts off strong, but the games and manipulations that the author recommends toward the end feel excessive.

In this episode, we'll cover topics including:
How scarcity builds value
Why pretending to be scarce is a bad idea
Why friendship is not a path to romance
Why requiring a woman to invest in your relationship is important (to her and you)
Why men who spend time arguing with women don't understand women
That you're angry and defensive becuase you're afraid
How jealousy thrives in insecurity and scarcity
Insanely bad ideas to rebuild a woman's attraction

And, we'll introduce our next book, "Self-care for Men" by Garrett Munce.

Here's a video that we reference during the show:
https://youtu.be/0lGDyUj2L0o?si=9HWxtbIY-GXrInyE

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Charles:

All right, whenever you are ready, we are rock and rollin'.

Dan:

Good evening, Charles. How are you Good?

Charles:

evening, dan, I am spectacular. How are you doing? I am well.

Dan:

Happy birthday.

Charles:

Thank you very much. We are recording on this blessed day of November 20th 2023, 46 years from my birth. Happy birthday to Joel McHale and President Joe Biden, who I share birthday with. It's an important day because of mostly them, but also me as well, A little bit, yeah. So, yeah, it's been a good day.

Charles:

I did not take the day off of work because I have a job that I don't need to just randomly take a vacation day for my birthday from, because I enjoy my job. I got to hang out with some people and with my client's office in Jacksonville. I don't travel to Jacksonville as much as I travel to St Petersburg, so it's nice to see them. And I did decide last week and I want to talk to you about this get your take on it.

Charles:

Every year, I kind of decide do I want to leave on the about me part of Facebook? Do I want to leave my birthday public or make it private? And here's the thing I do not. I'm not somebody who sees that it's somebody's birthday and feels like I have to jump on their wall and say happy birthday. I do it sometimes, but most of the time I do not. I just kind of ignore it and I'm OK with people not commenting on mine either, and so today, this year, I decided I'm not going to leave it open, I'm going to make it private. And I want to say coincidentally, but it's not a coincidence at all Today I heard from the people wishing me a happy birthday. They're the exact people that I would call or send a text to tell them happy birthday.

Dan:

Yeah well, so what's the question?

Charles:

There's no question. I just found it interesting that I have. I mean, I think they're quality over quantity. I think there are some people that I'm happy about the idea that this is not counting down still.

Dan:

All right, you got a couple extra bonus birthday. I did it's out of that.

Charles:

Yeah, sorry, the intro timer was not was not moving. I feel like a common mistake that some people make is to have one level of effort that they put forth to others and expect a higher level of effort, and if they don't get it, they get disappointed.

Dan:

Oh, so you're assuming life is fair then, oh, is that what these people are thinking? I think some people work under that.

Charles:

In my current situation. They may have been disappointed from not hearing from more people, but with the Facebook birthdays I really it's like eating cotton candy it's meaningless. It's eating cotton candy as compared to eating a steak. When somebody knows that it's your birthday, either because they have a reminder set or because they just remember it's your birthday, and they pick up their phone and text you or give you a call to say happy birthday, that means something.

Dan:

Exactly that's my move.

Charles:

When Facebook is compelling me to tell people that it's give them a happy birthday message, then, yeah, it's not filling.

Dan:

Yeah, they want you to use the platform, of course. Right, exactly. Yeah, look, I'm the same way. I mean, most of the time I will send a text or give a call for somebody's birthday that I care about. I feel like the Facebook stuff is just. It just gets everybody's throwing their happy birthday.

Charles:

Right, we've ritualized it and it doesn't mean anything.

Dan:

It's basically already automated. You don't even have to type it out anymore and it's like yeah.

Charles:

Yeah. So I've kind of opted out of that system and I think I'm going to keep it that way for my following birthdays, where I'm not going to make I'm not going to be the one to make it a deal, and I know even talking about it almost can sound like I'm testing people. I am totally not testing people. So the people who didn't reach out to me, it's like I don't care. I probably didn't reach out to them on their birthday. In fact I'm sure I did, and that's OK with me. So I'm in an equilibrium here where, when it comes to birthday greetings, I'm giving and getting at the same level, and that is OK with me. I like that.

Dan:

Sounds good sir.

Charles:

So yeah, and I would encourage people to consider jumping off that carousel Because I think it's if you could take it Now. If you get a lot out of strangers and associates and Facebook friends giving you your happy birthday and it's going to bum you out. If you don't get that, then don't change anything. But if it's more than it's like, ok, well, once a year they're going to tell me happy birthday. So now I have to hand out happy birthdays all year myself. I'll be honest with you, I felt better checking out of that.

Dan:

Yeah, I started to feel that way. Yeah, I'm like, oh, they wished me a happy birthday and now it rings a bell when something comes up and I'm like, yeah, I feel obligated.

Charles:

And for the people that wish you happy birthday, do you have to comment on their birthday wish? Do you like it? Do you love it? How are you expected to react to it when they leave you a happy birthday message on your wall for your birthday?

Dan:

I have a simple rule If you're a friend, you got to like. If you're family, you got to love. That's it.

Charles:

Yeah, I know other people who have rules like that as well, and I try and keep it simple. I can see the simplicity in that, yeah, but I would rather not have my birthday available and not get any and not have to respond to it. Hey, where would you?

Dan:

float your boat man.

Charles:

I mean we do get decision fatigue. The more decisions you make in a day, the less likely the late night decisions are going to be as good as they would have been otherwise.

Dan:

I'm convinced my decision fatigue is why I eat like crap at night On the same way.

Charles:

I really need to be at home, at a friend's house, at a hotel room. If I'm driving around in my car, the odds of me stopping and popping in someplace to get something I shouldn't be getting it goes way, way up.

Dan:

So my line is yeah, sorry I didn't wish you happy birthday, but I need to be able to control my eating at night.

Charles:

Yeah, it's a clear A to B. I mean, who would understand? Right? I mean, come on, OK. So yes, the birthday was good. I worked today and then I left work and I went and registered, or applied to register, my new car that I bought for myself.

Dan:

Happy birthday to you, yes it's the timing worked out actually really well as your own little birthday gift Quite well.

Charles:

Yeah, the day I paid my title and registration and all those was on my birthday. So, yeah, that means I will get a full 365 days out of the registration before I have to do it next year. Nice. But yeah, I'm very happy that I found a car that I've been excited about. I looked it up GoldenEye, the first Pierce Bros and James Bond film Not many people would call it the best, but I might call it my personal favorite Came out a week before my 18th birthday in 1995. Holy cow.

Dan:

Wow, sometimes things just line up for you?

Charles:

Yeah, it came out 28 years ago. It was when it was released and I had seen the ads and read some of the press about the fact that Bond was switching from an Aston Martin to a BMW Back then it was a big deal because he always drove Aston Martins.

Charles:

But Aston Martin either they didn't have some models that they wanted to promote or they didn't want to fork over the money to MGM for the promotional consideration, as they call it. And so they switched to BMW for three films GoldenEye, tomorrow Never Dies and the World Is Not Enough. And the first one they switched to was an Atlantic Blue Z3 Roadster with tan interior and a 1.9 liter four cylinder engine, and that is now sitting in your garage because I found one and I bought it.

Dan:

Congratulations. Thank you very much. I'm excited and, yeah, you care to comment a little bit about how that came to be with yes, because I feel like this is an interesting story.

Charles:

We had talked on the podcast about the idea that the amount of joy I get out of driving a car I consider to be fun is pretty high and the the amount of joy I get on going on solo trips, little vacations it's pretty high too. But one is certainly more durable than the other. They're still experienced based. It's not like, oh, I've got this fancy, expensive car and the status gives me something, because it's not. It's it's kind of fancy but it's not expensive by any means. Right, and so you convinced me to.

Dan:

You're not convinced me, but you certainly played a part in helping me align my priorities and realize okay, say no to yourself for a few of these trips, you're not looking at a super expensive car and Just just say no a couple of times and you'll be able to Be ready to buy this because you've been talking about this car for a long time and I feel like you were making Not and I don't see you making excuses, but I feel like you, you know you were really excited about it and then you would do things that were in direct conflict with you, with that excitement and that desire that you were just, you know, telling me about.

Charles:

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, my, my relationship to dopamine is Not what many medical experts or or mental health experts would call healthy. I get a rush out of things like retail therapy, booking plane tickets, flying to new cities, going to new zoos to see new animals. I get a lot out of those experiences, more than you know, buying something, more than putting money in savings, certainly, and even more than you know buying a fancy new, fill in the blank. Sure, buying a plane ticket is the most fun thing for me to buy, except for, perhaps, two-seater roadsters, german roadsters, mm-hmm, so yeah. So I just basically said no to two trips.

Charles:

I was gonna go to Boston late fall and my guess is it's still late fall and I was gonna go to New York for my birthday, and I decided to cancel both of those trips and to make myself a little. I got a whiteboard and Made myself one of those little fundraising Thermometers that people use you know where, as you save more money for the goal, you know, you fill it in with some red ink at the top Yep and yeah, really, the day that I decided to do that and I put it up on my wall and I colored in the amount of money that I already had, which was substantially on the way. Then Things just fell into place and I was able to come up with the remainder of the money. I was able to find a car that checked all of the boxes, and it wasn't in Seattle, it was in Sarasota.

Dan:

Yeah, cuz I mean we didn't. He didn't mention that, but all the other Look as you were. Solid prospects when well out of state when you were excited about the car and looking at the you know and looking for them. They were not just out of state, they were on the other side of the country.

Charles:

Yeah, there are two in Seattle, there was one in Tucson. The closest one that looked pretty good right was in North Carolina, but it was a green one, which I've already owned, a green one, and so I didn't. I don't. I don't dislike the dark green ones. I think they look good, but I already had one, and so the the color that I was most excited about was the Atlantic blue, followed by black and then probably green in third place.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean. I think you also need to mention that when we say it happened quick, it was within a week or week and a half of you putting up that thermometer right the day I put up the thermometer, I saw the ad for this car. Okay, the same exact day right, but but the money and all the other things that needed it, but all the other stuff that needed to happen was also very quickly after that.

Charles:

Yeah, within, yeah, within 48 hours of making my little accountability fundraising chart, I had found the money, I'd found the car and I had come up with a plan even of the logistics of how to get there, how to test drive it, how to get it back, all that stuff, it's yeah.

Dan:

So yeah, I, I, I find I think I find nothing woo-woo about that.

Charles:

Yeah, I feel like I directed my attention to this mission. Uh-huh and I, my conscious and unconscious brains, work together to make it happen. Yeah.

Dan:

I mean, you know I can't explain exactly, you know how that that happens, but I feel like whenever, whenever I focused the way you did, you know things start to fall in place. I don't think it's ever happened that quickly for me as it did for you, yeah, so I'm super excited to see that happen.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, that was great up my my mail order bride. Yeah, we'll. We'll dedicate the efforts to that.

Dan:

What kind of thermometer you're gonna draw? Draw for that one.

Charles:

Yeah, it's gonna be a bigger one. Save up a lot more money. Yeah, so my my savings goal on the car. And again, the the big message. I was even thinking about this when I if I post about the car on an Instagram. The message is Hold on to your dreams because if you hold on to them long enough, they will depreciate and go down in value to the level that they become practical.

Dan:

That's a lot to put on a t-shirt maybe.

Charles:

maybe we can get that done, yeah in 1995 when this car came out, I believe it was like a 32,000 dollar car, wow, which. Even then it was like that's a lot, it's. It's not an Aston Martin, though people were like I can't believe James Bond's driving a $30,000 car. Yeah, all right, and so which I get, you know, cuz I mean you know the Martins, holy cow. Yeah, there are hundreds of thousands of dollars. So yeah, but yeah, you give it enough time and you know they are the kind of car that people are excited to take care of and keep nice.

Charles:

And so there are some good, good examples of that car out there. Yeah, and I was thinking there's really only two cars I could get. That would be James Bond cars, it was this one. And then in Casino Royale, daniel Craig goes to the Bahamas and he rents like From like a car rental place, gets like a little Ford that is like a little four-door Ford that he's driving him before he gets the Aston Martin. I was like, okay, those are the two I would be able to afford.

Dan:

Hey, now you know what you're gonna replace the Honda with.

Charles:

There you go when I have that thought, yeah that's hysterical.

Dan:

You got it.

Charles:

I don't think they sell the one that he had in the Bahamas. I think it's a European in a Bahamas car.

Charles:

I don't know America All right, you know, maybe we'll see. Well, yeah, maybe somebody's got one. Somebody must have one, right, so okay. So let's, let's close out. This is this is our third attempt to kill the atomic attraction book. We just cannot get rid of this thing. No, we recorded this episode multiple times. Are we still recording? Still recording? Yes, whoo, yeah, just just double-checking there. So we're gonna hit some of the high points in the last few chapters and then we're gonna be done. The first one I want to address is Induce scarcity to increase your value. On the surface, that is true. If you are perceived as being scarce, you will See more valuable to the woman, the women that are in your life. What it doesn't say, even though you could read into the subtext of this chapter, and I would say reading to the subtext of this chapter is pretend to be scarce to build your value. Yeah, but that that is a losing strategy, in my opinion pretending to anything is not a great strategy.

Charles:

But right, and I was I was asking myself today why? Why is that a? Why is pretending to be fill in the blank a losing strategy? And I equate it to Most murderers get caught. If you commit a murder, the odds are that you're going to get caught. Now you know. Certain economic and demographic and geographic data will contribute to how likely that is, but Certainly more than half of murders are solved. The killer is caught. Why is that? Well, one big reason is when you, when Dan Littman, decides to go out and kill somebody, he'll have one murder under his belt.

Charles:

One murder under his belt hmm, the detective whose job it is to catch you. How many murders does he have under his belt? That's interesting. I never thought about that way. He's much more practice, that's why they could never get dexter, well, exactly had so many yeah, exactly, yeah, the yeah. The more you do it, the better 10,000 hours. Right, exactly right. A cop is likely to catch you because he's way better investigating murders and you are committing murders.

Dan:

Interesting. That's a good point. And you know, it's not just. Usually it's not one cop, you're right a team of people who have now, you know, pooled, hundreds of thousands of hours of experience right, and the people who've come before them. You've got all that experience. That's being handed down in some fashion or whatever, unless I love it when you're making my future argument even better.

Charles:

Yeah, you're doing right now, right, I mean?

Dan:

I mean with Dexter. So you know he was. He was raised by a father who was a cop so he could share some of the experience of not out how to not get caught right, so I'm yeah, right so.

Charles:

And that ties back to your ability to bullshit. A woman is not as strong as her ability to detect bullshit in men. So when you decide I'm going to play games with her, I'm going to pretend to be scarce, I'm gonna pretend to be unavailable, even though I've got nothing going on. Yeah, all I'm doing is staring at my phone thinking about is it time to call her? Yet Did the rules say I should call her? Yet she's going to see through you. Yeah, that's, that's like a little.

Dan:

That's like the little you're trying to play baseball like in the majors. Really, yeah right, think about it, because their whole lives They've been dealing with. You know people you are, you know guys or people Bullshitting and they try to get some.

Charles:

Trying to get what they need out of them, exactly and and again. As we talked about before, the stakes of getting it wrong when it comes to mating choice with women are so high Making a baby with the wrong guy? Who's? Who can't defend you, who's not going to stick around, he's not going to give you resources? Who's?

Dan:

and even that's what kill you, and that's just one of the reasons, right, why they've honed this skill. It's safety, right. It's like, ultimately like and I remember we may have talked about it or I don't remember where I saw that or listened to it, but it was, you know, a guy at the front of the room. Basically, it was a room full of people and and you know it was either woman or a man who was leading this, this conference, and they were saying you know how many people here have, you know, felt like their lives were in danger in the last year? And it was like all the women's hands right went up, none of the guys hands went up, and then they kept Reducing the date. It was just like how many people felt like they were, you know.

Dan:

Yeah, they in the last week in the last week, in the last day, and there was, like in the parking garage on the way over here and then, like half the women's hands and it was just, it just really changed the perspective that even I had. I had no idea, like, how, like on a daily basis, how fearful a A woman feels at times and you know, just for their safety. And so, yeah, out of pure necessity, you're going to hone these skills where you're gonna, it's gonna be a bullshit detector.

Charles:

Yes, and so the idea of I'm going to pretend to be, oh, whatever this book tells me I should look like, or yeah.

Dan:

We're not even just this book, but it right in general, pretending to be something that you're not right.

Charles:

So the goal is, if you want to, yeah, increase your value by being, by inducing scarcity, then you have to be scarce. And it has to be scarce not because you are Essentially, not because you're doing stupid stuff, but because you're doing important stuff that people would look at and respect. If you're so busy with your purpose, your mission, whatever you want to call it your other relationships that you value, then if you're scarce for those reasons, then, yes, that will make you See more attractive than if you're just clingy and always available.

Dan:

And but it has to be for legitimate reasons, not because I've read in a book that you need to pretend to be that and and those legitimate reasons are going to absolutely benefit you and pay off because you will be Increasing your experience, your connection with other people. Your value, your ability to function and survive and thrive in this world is only enhanced by having these other Experiences, I mean, unless you're, you know, out at the strip club or something like that right or the bars and you're unavailable because of that.

Dan:

Correct, I guess you could go down that road. But you know we'll look at that.

Charles:

The cup is half full right, but when yeah, when it comes to a tragedy, you know help. Yeah, desirable women yeah you've got to be doing. You've got to be doing interesting Good things that her and her peers and everybody else in your life like, looks up to and respects, not Stuff like that right, really yeah.

Charles:

Yeah, it's like oh I'm, I'm scared someone available because I'm in the drunk take every weekend. No, that's not what we're talking about. Okay, the next chapter that I want to go over really quickly. You and I have talked a lot about the friend zone and you can find yourself in a relationship with a woman who is your friend Almost by accident. It can happen, it's happened to me. It is a thing that happens when you adopt becoming her friend as a strategy To becoming her boyfriend. That's when it almost never works, like less than 10% of the time, far less than 10% of the time.

Dan:

I think a lot of us as kids start out that way as we're getting older. Yeah, oh, boy, like you know, as you know boys Growing up, I know that was my strategy because it was safer. It was safer because there's no threat there, you're, there's no risk of rejection, right, you're not putting yourself out there, but it's sneaky because that's not what you really want from that person. Yeah, and then, and then you pretend to like things that she likes, that you don't like. Right, just to be around her.

Dan:

Yes, absolutely find some way to connect correct.

Charles:

Yes and yeah and yeah. It's a. It is a losing strategy in almost every case. Never worked for me. You're not. Yeah, I mean, your honest and direct romantic interest in a woman is like your greatest weapon and you're taking that off. You're like I'm gonna leave that in in the locker. So ironic. Yeah it is. I mean, yeah, I mean, like dr Robert Glover says, like a Woman watching a man act with confidence is like a man watching a woman lift her shirt. Hmm like it has. It has the same romantic sexual effect.

Dan:

Yeah, that attraction, that level of attraction and yes, it's so difficult as a man to think in those terms and actually believe it until you've experienced or seen it. You know enough, absolutely because, that's just not the way we operate you know, yeah, but it's, it's absolutely true.

Charles:

And so when you adopt a strategy of I will get close to her, I'll be her friend and maybe she'll realize that she loves me. It it's such a long-term losing strategy that I don't recommend it. It's like, I mean in poker terms, like you can sit down in Texas Hold them, you can win a hand with seven and two off suit Mm-hmm. But the odds that you're going to win a hand that way are so low that if you build a lifelong poker strategy around it, you're going to end up poor right, it's the same thing or great example.

Dan:

For example, if you're coming in trying to be her friend, you're constantly putting effort into showing what a good friend you are. Right, so you are selling and, and I'm not a creep right- right, you are selling and and you're probably doing a great job of selling that and she probably bought it. And now she bought a friend and now now you're like oh, oh well, that's not really what I was selling, that's what do you mean? Like this is she took you for face value.

Charles:

She took you for what you were. Example she's she bought the product you were selling exactly. And then and then you get about it. Right now You're upset that you bought your product.

Dan:

You bought your product after you put in so much time and effort into that.

Charles:

That's a great point, yeah, and so yeah yeah, the the product has to be.

Charles:

I'm an exciting romantic guy to be around Sell that. And when you sell that, yeah and the, the problem is or the fear, would I would say is that that is a Quick acceptance or rejection. There's no drawing it out until you're comfortable. It's when you, when you show up that way with honesty and directness, then you're prompting her to honestly and directly accept or reject pretty quickly, mm-hmm. And you know the double-edged sword with that is yeah, the earlier on in knowing a woman that she says thanks but no thanks, I'm not into it the less it hurts. Yes, when, if you spend so much time selling around how good of a friend you are and then at some point when you Can't take it anymore and I've been there you tell her how you really feel about it, then, when she's not interested, it is crushing, because you've gotten to know her so well, you spent so much time around her so here's the thing I think if you actually think through the amount of pain and both of those situations, it's not even a comparison.

Dan:

It might be a quick, sharp pain at the beginning if she says no to your romantic gestures or overtures at the beginning. But if you are like this friend and you are, you know, friends with a woman for six months months and it's a slow burn at that point because there's gonna be times and it happened to me where she's talking about some other guy or she did something or reacted to Something another guy did, and now you're like you got some twinge of jealousy. That doesn't feel good, that hurts a little bit, but you're right. Then you build it up into this huge crescendo of of I'm finally gonna make this huge, you know, romantic gesture and then when she's like no, it's even, it's much more painful.

Dan:

I feel Absolutely then if you you had put no effort in or very little effort in at the very beginning and it was just like, hey, let's what's be romantic, yeah, and.

Dan:

You know, unfortunately, as a kid I wasn't able to see the forest of the trees and to be able to make those two comparisons and see that I would have so much time, energy and pain right by just going in at the beginning and and being truthful about my intentions and then Knowing I'd wake up the next day breathing and be able to eat and yeah.

Charles:

I eventually I'd get over it, right. I had no mom, dad, uncle that were were able or willing to sit me down and say Listen, if you're interested in a girl. As soon as you decide that you're interested in her, you say, you go up to her and say I'm Charles, you're so cute. I just I want, I'd love to get to know you better.

Dan:

Well, guess what? Everybody who had parents in their lives most of them also did not get that. I am one of them as well.

Charles:

That's how, that's because that's not how they got into their relationships.

Dan:

No, and that's also usually like that's not, I mean. I mean I guess, whatever, whether it's a job of a parent to do that or not, I feel like it's a, it's a very crucial life skill that's just not commonly passed down to Kids. You know when. This is the way you right.

Charles:

I Agree, and I mean listen, we've talked about.

Dan:

I had. I had a very loving family and they were all very supportive, but right, I just didn't get that, that specific direction which would have been helpful. I mean the other thing. The other thing too is I don't think I would have taken that advice either. Even if I had gotten it at that I, I that would have been too scary for me.

Charles:

Still, it still would have been too scary for me, but if you're, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. Maybe, if you're, I don't think I would I don't think I would have taken it now if your dad lived that way. Yeah, saw how happy he was living that way. Okay, that's because one of the things we want, I'll agree with you there.

Charles:

Okay, you know we've talked about, we know some guys that when it comes to initiating interactions with women, they're naturals at it. They just they do it easy. The rejection doesn't scare them and they're good at it. Yeah, what they're not good at is explaining how and why they do it the way that they do it. So to have a dad who is good at it, either because he learned or because he was natural at it and he knows how to explain it to his son, okay, absolutely commodity yeah, and in those cases I could see that being in.

Dan:

You know the way that the child would learn how to do that.

Charles:

Just like everything else. Yeah, you model it, you don't.

Dan:

yeah, I guess, I guess what I'm thinking about is my experience. You know it in childhood, not seeing it modeled in front of me. If my parents actually, like, sat down, verbalized it to me, I, yeah yeah. The inconsistency of me not growing up being that way. I don't think I would ever been able to take that advice and do anything with it, even if I'd gotten it.

Charles:

The next chapter I want to address is she must invest in you. And again, this, this is real. The the back part, the very back of this book, is a summary. We've talked about all these things in a lot of detail already. As guys, when we start talking to dating a new girl who's pretty and interesting and we're Attracted to her and she likes spending time with us, we have a tendency to over invest in that relationship with our time, our money, our presence, our emotions. We just go too deep, too fast and At some level and many well, that can often scare a girl away, or, if not scare her away she could just be like, okay, this guy's a little coming on, a little strong for how well we know each other mmm.

Charles:

Yep, and I Would warn you against doing that. If if you can help it from I mean you certainly can't help you can certainly control the kind of dates that you plan with her and the kind of gifts that you buy her, meaning, you know, don't, don't be taken her out for super fancy meals Just because you're trying to get to know her an impress her really don't. Don't do anything for the purpose of impressing anyone. I would say do do the things that you want to do and that you Need to do, but when you are going through the boy, she'll really like me. If I do x, y, z, you're already on the road to ruin.

Charles:

Do do the things that you're into. Go to the places you like going and maybe even dial that back a little bit, because look I, I like going out for fancy meals and I will go sit down at a restaurant alone and eat a nice meal sometimes. But if you do that first, second, third date, you don't want to take her to dumps. But there are lots of cheap and fun things you can do on dates that will really Make her feel the way that you would want somebody to feel that you're trying to get to know and trying to get close to when you know, taking her for a a five or seven course meal at a five-diamond restaurant. It's like, yeah, that that will impress her, but not in in a sustainable way.

Dan:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think when, in this case here, when she must invest in you, right? What's the point that he's trying to make? Exactly like.

Charles:

The point is I mean, what I took away from that is don't you be the one who takes on the responsibility? If I have to invest all of this fill in the blank into the relationship, it's got to be equal or even more. And other experts would say she needs to be investing more than you in the beginning Because in?

Dan:

what is the investment look like? When you say investing in a?

Charles:

shooting in a shooting conversations, seeing you know what your weekend looks like if you might be available to go out with her. I mean the yeah other, cory Wayne in particular, has said that if a if a man and a woman initiate 50% of the conversation each when they're just getting to know each other, that will lead her to look at you more as a friend than as a romantic partner.

Dan:

That's fair. I mean, that's that's kind of what we expect from our friends is like an equal right 50 50 type of work or close to it type of Back and forth right investment.

Charles:

Yeah, and he's got a video that I've not yet I. I saw the title of it today and added to my cue on YouTube. The title is something like why women feel empowered when they chase men. Huh, like, oh, that's interesting, I want to. That's interesting. Yes, like they again, howard. Yes, because I mean you, we. I think both sides get something out of the experience of the Patient, of how into me are they? How are they gonna react if I, if I, send them a message tomorrow morning? Are you know when are they gonna respond? How are they gonna respond? And and I think his argument would be that that Anticipation and those endorphins that you get from that rush, it affects them even more positively than it affects us. Interesting where, if you're constantly the one that's chasing her and doing all the pursuing, you're taking that opportunity away from her. She doesn't get to feel those things.

Dan:

Yeah, so that's interesting. So you're actually making her feel good by investing a little bit less correct.

Charles:

That's, that's his position and I think he's right it just in my own life, in my own experience, that seems to be the case. So, yeah, hey, yeah. So I guess the the positive message of this chapter is I Let her work a bit to be in your life and have access to your calendar Again, not in a fake way, not in a make believe kind of way, but be so busy that you're not constantly the one reaching out to her and she and conversations with her. But when you do hear from her, be, you know, openly enthusiastic, say, hey, it's great to hear from you. What's your schedule look like this week? Are you free to? You know, get a drink tomorrow night? Yeah, and so, yeah, reward, you know, her investing in you by reaching out to you, by initiating communication, by being enthusiastic and asking her out on a date with a specific time, place and time. Yeah, you don't want to be.

Dan:

yeah, you can't be an asshole. Why would you reach out to you over again after that, right, like, yeah, you're basically telling her you're not interested at that point, right.

Charles:

But, yeah, don't be the one who's constantly chasing her around trying to get her to commit to dates. But when she does reach out to you, tell her you're glad to hear from her and say, hey, how about we get together at this time and place? Mm-hmm, that makes sense, all right. So let's see the next chapter after that one Dealing with conflict. Again, you know, I've been quoting from Corey Wayne because I've been reading his book and watching his videos a lot lately.

Charles:

One of the things he says is no man that understands women spends his time arguing with women, and I would really agree with that. And I would say that, you know, I've had, I've had conflict free relationships and I've had conflict laden relationships and the conflict free ones. They weren't conflict free for the right reason. It was because, you know, I was kind of I don't want to say bully because it feels too strong but okay, maybe, maybe bully, like I just I didn't invite a lot of dialogue about things that either didn't interest me or that I didn't like and so kind of got a little stonewalley and that would shut down argument, that would shut down debate, and so I felt like, yeah, things are good, we're not fighting, but the resentment was still growing. So that's not what I'm talking about.

Charles:

Yeah, when I say that I believe you can have a relatively conflict, free relationship with somebody. But you know that's more about when. When someone comes to you with a, when your partner comes into the problem, don't deny their experience, don't deny their feelings. Just get curious and act as if because it's true you want to understand exactly where they're coming from. Yeah, because if you understand exactly where they're coming from, you can find yourself in the position less where you're having the same conversation about the same problem over and over and over again. Mm-hmm. But to do that you have to put yourself, you have to open up and be like okay, I'll go ahead, and anything you need to criticize about the way I handled this or the way I made you feel, or whatever, give it to me, I can take it. Tell me exactly how it made you feel when I said, fill in the blank, and then if you can really sit there and be okay hearing that, then you have a chance of being able to prevent it from happening again in the future.

Dan:

Yeah, I think the key is really checking your ego at the door and not needing to be right or wrong or assign blame, but really try to be an investigator and try to find the solution and just get more information and be okay that if, when you're getting that information, there's going to be some criticisms of things that you've done or whatever that is, but by being able to I don't want to say take that, but sit there, be uncomfortable and have all of those feelings that could come up you're going to get to a solution a lot more quickly than you would any other way, and I know that firsthand. Yeah, absolutely, and that's really from you know, changing my mindset, from I need to be right and, you know, letting my ego run the show versus I need to figure out what's going on here and let's let's come up with a solution together.

Charles:

Right and one of the things I mentioned that just and that also deescalates.

Dan:

Oh, for sure, the other side of the argument a lot more quickly than yeah.

Charles:

One of the things I mentioned last time, trying to tell him something was wrong that we were attempting to do. This chapter was the idea that when you jump to a solution as soon as she comes to you with the problem, oh I remember that, yes.

Charles:

You are fixing what you think the problem is and you, you may have a great solution to what you think the problem is, but only by drilling down and asking over and over again in different ways how did that make you feel Okay? And then, how did that make you feel? And then, when I did that in response, how did that make you feel? Only by drilling down Can the two of you get to the root problem and not just the because immediately, yes, as soon as somebody comes to you with a problem, as as a technical person, as an engineer, as a man, you will say, okay, that's the problem. Then I got to fix for the problem. But some, it's not always the problem that you think is the problem.

Dan:

Right. And the other piece of that is the physical and slash mental aspect of it, which I was talking to somebody who did like customer service, and sometimes what she would do is she would, when she would talk to somebody who's really upset about something, she would start asking them about other things to get them talking and and actually it distracted them a little bit but also exerts and gets rid of some of that extra energy. So if the motions are running really hot, I think just the action of thinking about things and explaining them and you know, I think all of that, you know it takes some energy, right. I think that actually the process of talking about those things as you're digging it down and asking well, how did that make you feel and what did you? You know, what did you think about this when we did that?

Dan:

Right, and allowing them to just have that that time and space to express themselves, I know, whenever I've been in an argument and and with somebody and they don't allow me to speak, it just it builds up, yes, and and that can happen if you already have that solution assumed, correct, and you come in and you just want to implement it or sell it to them right away, without giving them the chance, even if even if it is turns out to be correct, I I've just realized through our conversation yeah, it's probably better just let them give them the time and space to express themselves and and, and not go right for the solution right away.

Charles:

Right and and even unless they ask you for it, but right and even then, yeah I. I would say, before you get into offering a solution mode at all, have the other.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

The other conversation first and then at the end, say okay, so we've been talking about this for and it could be three minutes, or we've been talking about this for 30 minutes. I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on what the problem is, and so I'm going to tell you in my own words what I think the problem is, and then, once we both agree that we both understand what the problem is, then we can talk about how we've solved it.

Dan:

That's a great point you make, because a lot of times, yeah, our, our, our definition of what or what we think the problem is is totally off.

Charles:

Yeah, that's why you got to get some sort of a level.

Dan:

That's the first level of agreement is oh hey, are you even talking about the same thing here?

Charles:

That's I've gotten. I'm such a huge fan of this practice I learned about from guys like Sam Harris, jordan Peterson, the Weinstein Weinstein brothers of steel manning, where when you're having an argument with somebody, you both agree. Okay, before before you hear my position, I'm going to tell you what I think your position is, and I have to keep editing myself until you say yes, charles, you get it. You know exactly where I'm coming from. That is exactly what my position is. And then once we could both get to that point where I'm able to state your position in a way that you find adequate and you're able to state my position in a way that I find adequate, then we can try to address solving a problem. But man in relationships, I have done that maybe zero times. Yeah, I've done it less than zero times. I've done a negative number of times? Yeah, exactly Like the square root of negative one.

Dan:

Yeah, exactly yeah me too Imagine. Or at least it's felt that way anyway.

Charles:

No, I mean, look it's. It's hard to do that. And you mentioned ego and I don't know that. I mean, yes, I'm, I'm sun level when I'm, when I'm in the middle of being defensive and I'm in the middle of trying to talk somebody out of their feelings or solve their problem prematurely. I'm sure to them it looks like it's a matter of Charles's ego, narcissism, whatever, but it's really fear. I mean, at the root of it is fear of losing the connection. If you figure out that I don't get what I think I get, or I don't get what is important for me to have you think that I get, then I get scared. I think the connection is going to go away because I'm not who I said I was and you're going to figure it out and then you're going to decide I'm not on board with this anymore.

Dan:

I think for me it's a little bit more about like well, that's just not fair. Like you know, I shouldn't be told that I was wrong when I know I was right about this, and that's that's where my ego goes. Like.

Charles:

But why are you concerned with things being fair, dan? What's the root of that Like, why? Why does?

Dan:

a question why does it matter? Think about that. You have to be fairly.

Charles:

Because what happens? Because what's the worst case scenario If you're treated unfairly? What could be? What could happen? Yeah, I guess it did have a crime you didn't commit and then you get. You have to suffer the consequences from it.

Dan:

And then I joined the A team. No I. So for me, I think it's really more just being, yet not being treated like somebody taking advantage of me. When I'm not being feel like I'm being treated fairly, I guess. And yeah, the bad things could potentially more, bad things could potentially happen, right, and that this person is not, this is not a good person for me to be around, right? That's where my mind goes.

Charles:

Yeah, I would say yeah, you, I think we're coming from the same place and just talking about it, which is a kind of a fear thing.

Charles:

Yeah you're, you, yeah, you won't have access to the resources that you need to survive. Yeah, ultimately, I think, yeah, I think I think that's what, yeah, what it comes down to, and it's it's which scarcity is the, the root of that. It's like, yeah, there's, there's not enough of the thing I need, whether that's somebody else's love or their time or the connection you feel. There's not enough to go around. So I have to defend this piece of it, cause if I lose that, I might lose more, and then I won't have enough to get by. Yeah, and yeah, I would say that, yeah, fear is really the root of of anger, it's the root of ego, it's the root of, you know, oh no, what if I? What if I can't meet my needs?

Dan:

There might be a actually to bring back one of the other chapters here a little bit of loss aversion here too, because I've already invested Right, I've invested my time, energy and resources into this relationship, into this person, the opportunity costs, and now it's not a good investment because I'm you know I'm I'm seeing this behavior or I'm I'm this person is telling me that I did all these things wrong, when I believe I did them right. And now you know the the time and effort and energy I put into this other person, like I was wrong. I should have done that.

Charles:

Oops yeah. And now you know it's like now, this time is just gone. I can't get it back. Right, the attention's gone. I can't get it back, like all these valuable things that I have a finite amount of are gone.

Dan:

I can prove, I can prove that I'm right, and they admit it. Then, for some reason, it's a weird way.

Charles:

Yeah, you connect with Josh but they're not actually connected, right, yeah, okay, let's talk real briefly about jealousy. I would say if your partner is spending a lot of time being jealous, it's because she's not feeling safe, and if you spend a lot of time being jealous, it's because you don't feel like you're enough. And again, the the fix for that is do the things that allow a woman to feel safe, which is counterintuitively, one might say build your own value mentally, your mental health, your physical health, your financial health, like make yourself the best you can, like make yourself the best man you can be, and the safer she will feel being around you.

Dan:

And then and I mean I think it's not just safe, I think also it's connection, like I feel a lot of times people, both men and women, will do things to make the other person feel jealous, because they're not feeling like they're feeling connected to them or loved, correct, pick up, and it may not be to actually go and sleep with somebody else, but just just a wake-up call going hey, look at me, I need some sort of attention here, or we need to address the elephant in the room that's not being addressed.

Charles:

Correct. You're not giving me the physical touch. The words of affirmation, though, fill in the blank that I need yeah. I, you're not giving me those things.

Dan:

I think I mean safety I, but I'm gonna say I think it's more about feeling connected and loved by the other person. That's what I think leads to a lot of jealousy, okay, or causing people to act to make the other person feel jealous, right.

Charles:

Yeah, we're gonna talk about that a minute in a minute on the chapter on Restoring attraction when it's gone or dying. But yeah, and I would say, if you're feeling jealous of her Again scarcity, lack of abundance fear that you're not enough and that she's gonna figure it out and find somebody who's more than you in some way. That is usually where it comes from. If your attitude is Look, I'm a pretty good guy, I put a lot of effort in to be the man that I want to be, who I respect and who I appreciate spending time with, and If she decides that I'm not the guy for her, that will hurt. But that's okay, I'll find somebody else or I'll be okay by myself for a while.

Dan:

So you're saying if you start to feel jealous, then you really need to look in the mirror and see what. What kind of life Lee like, what kind of life you're leading, and Would you date yourself? Would you based on the person that you are being, would you be attracted enough To yourself? Or Could you, like, objectively, look around and go yeah, maybe I'm not being the, the man I need to be In order to attract her enough.

Charles:

Yes, I think that's exactly right and I and I would say, you know when I'm doing the things I need to do to take care of myself my journaling, my meditating, my going for walks, my going to the gym, my eating right, when I do the things that I know I need to do to feel the best about myself, I am not afraid of losing a bake off To some other guy, for either the girl I have or the girl I want and and it's because, and even if you did lose Right, I'm already afraid of it.

Charles:

That's what I'm saying.

Dan:

Whether the other, regardless of the outcome, I'm not afraid of what's gonna happen right, because you've found a way to make yourself happy Right by doing all of those things, and so your happiness is not dependent on what's happening outside of your world.

Charles:

Correct and, yeah, I'm in control of, and that's why it's so valuable to keep up those habits when you're with someone, but also so difficult to keep up those habits when you're with someone, because when you're excited to be with someone, it's like man, it'd be a lot more fun. Yeah just hanging out with you than it would be to wake up at 445 and go work out.

Dan:

And the thing is you, if you don't sell yourself on doing those things and how important it is, there's no way you're going to be able to sell it to a woman who's also just as excited To be with you and would rather spend time with you than you know Maybe keep up some of those other things in her life, right, and so sometimes you might need to be able to sell that To you know, to your partner, and go look what's both. It's important for both of us to maintain our friendships and our connections and and our some of our hobbies by ourselves. And Then, you know, you also have opportunities to start new hobbies together and things like that. But again, you know it's, it's not something I was ever really good at doing. Oh, definitely didn't prioritize it. I definitely didn't prioritize it and I've paid the consequences for it.

Charles:

Yeah, same. I mean, yeah, you should, if you can get yourself to a point where you're willing to say to your girlfriend who loves spending time with you, wants to be around you, like, look, I, I understand you would rather that we're hanging out, but I'm going out to do my five miles right now and you can spend that time doing something that's important to you, or you can spend that time being sad that I'm not Sitting here on the couch with you, but either way, I'm going to do it and I would encourage you to do something in that time that you find value in. Yeah, and Then it's up to her to do that or not do that, and it's it's up to you to. You can just take care of yourself and you can just do what's important to you, and the people around you are much more likely To take care of themselves if you're doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. Absolutely lead by example, right?

Charles:

Yeah, look, we were just talking about, you know, with when it comes to behavior with children, you can tell them what to do or you can show them what to do, yeah, and modeling. There's no, there's no substitute for modeling healthy behavior, telling them. Hey, I know, you know I'm sitting on the couch and smoking and eating potato chips, but you should be more healthy. Yeah, okay, dad, whatever. Yeah, they're not good. They're gonna do what you show them, not what you tell them. Okay, so there's a section of restore dying attraction, which is basically what not to do to restore dying attraction, and I want to go through this list, this ridiculous frigging list, with you so that you can join me in rolling your eyes and Saying why these are bad ideas.

Charles:

Yeah okay, okay. So some of the things you can do according to this. All author. To rebuild attraction. Tell her you miss being single and you're not sure if you want to be in a relationship. This sudden desire for freedom will trigger her fear of loss receptors, bringing her attention squarely back on to you.

Dan:

Yeah, or she could be like yeah, I've been feeling the same way, I Want to be single too, and then that's the end of the relationship. Are you, are you ready for that?

Charles:

Yeah, never, never bluff something, consequences that you're not willing to Accept or a boundary that you're willing to maintain again, starting to play games already. Yeah, absolutely it is. If you miss being single and you're not sure if you want to be in a relationship, then go be single, yeah, I mean, then break up with her and go do that, yeah, but, but don't, don't on this. Author.

Dan:

These are like all empty threats. It's like a list of empty threats here.

Charles:

Right, exactly, openly and without shame, look at other women in public and talk about how attractive they are.

Dan:

Listen that that didn't work for me, even when it wasn't intentional. It was an accident, like a waitress walking by there was. It was a problem all of a sudden. I was like you know so Many years ago one got broken up over it, right?

Charles:

Yes, you did.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

Yep.

Dan:

Yeah, so imagine she made all these assumptions about I mean, here's the thing is, on her part. She made all these assumptions about how was how I was feeling about things and that I didn't want to be with her. And that wasn't the case at all. She didn't want to hear the fact that, or believe that. Yeah, somebody walked my peripheral vision. I looked, I didn't gawk, it was like a literally turned my head and yeah, yeah.

Charles:

So add on top of that, though, another layer of you playing games and making it up, oh, and doing it on purpose.

Charles:

Oh sounds, sounds like a recipe for disaster or attractive and distasteful when yeah, so it's ridiculous Ignore her phone calls and text messages for days on end, forcing her to come to you in a sweat induced panic as she tries to find out what's going on. Again, guys, look, I mean most of the time when, when a woman backs away Because she's losing attraction, she's losing interest. She, you, you've stopped listening to her, you've stopped. She stopped feeling seen, she stopped feeling heard. There is a delicate way that you need to introduce space to this, and it needs to be a little more space than what she's asking for. Where, if you start engaging in this psychopathic, dark triad behavior and you're doing it in a way Because you're trying to induce a very specific outcome, it is not, I mean, no, listen, man, the. There may be guys out there that can pull this off, that make it work, but they're really bad guys, listen, who have had, I mean, horrible childhoods and had to build a life Manipulating people. Yeah, and they're not with healthy women.

Dan:

Yeah, that's about to say it's not gonna be a healthy relationship. Oh, absolutely, the woman who sticks around for this correct.

Charles:

Post pictures of yourself on social media with other women around you again, it's guys. Just have a life where you're Socializing and being around other people men, women, old people, kids. I mean, you're careful on the kids, but have a relationship, have a life where you so you're an open social person, yeah, and so posting pictures With your friends, associates, strangers is not an unusual thing. But oh no, I think I'm losing. I think she's losing attraction for me. Let me just start doing all these behaviors I've never done before and roll the dice and hope it works out. For me is insane.

Dan:

Yeah, and she's totally see through that anyway. I mean, we're talking about, you know, little league versus the majors, yeah yeah, if you've never been social before and you don't have a lot of Women in your life that are your friends and all of a sudden you start posting pictures with, like girls out of bars, like she's gonna I Mean it's just not consistently who you are it's gonna be like well, I don't want this person anyway.

Charles:

Exactly her attraction, right, I mean it's just gonna drive her in the other direction because your value has gone down and so your romantic value to her has gone down, and so Participating in this play acting is going to make that go down even further, or starting to just because what? What's? When you start behaving in ways you've never behaved before, that does not speak to a Strong masculine core. That is, I'm shaking up emotionally, I'm gonna start acting out. So when you start behaving in dramatically different ways and you've behaved before, in any way.

Charles:

It's gonna be like okay, this guy is shaking my, my behavior has shaken him and he is spiraling out of control. It doesn't know what to do, and that is gross and unattractive, mm-hmm. So let's talk about more ways you can do this Text and call other women in front of her.

Dan:

Oh, that's great.

Charles:

Start exercising if you don't already buy new clothes, wear nice fragrances, she'll notice these subtle changes and start to wonder whether or not you're seeing other women. Listen, I'm never gonna tell you not to ramp up your so physical fitness and yourself improvement. But, again, the easiest way to do this that some guys will fall into is oh, I'll pretend that I'm trying to get back into shape, I'll go out and buy some new clothes and look, it's got to be deep and it's got to be authentic, otherwise it's going to be sniffed out as okay, he's trying to make me notice him, or he's trying to make me wonder who he's getting dressed up for.

Dan:

I mean going to the gym to make somebody jealous is historical to me. It just really is. It's just. I mean You're pretending to go to the gym.

Charles:

Right, yeah, I'll drive to the gym and sit in my car for an hour and then come home so that she thinks that I'm. Yeah, it's like how many weeks can you keep that up?

Dan:

You know it's funny because maybe there are people doing this, because every time I'm I bet there are. I'm coming out of the parking, I'm coming out of the gym. In the parking lot there's a lot of people just sitting in their cars and, like they were in their car before I got, went into the gym. They've been sitting there the whole time. Who knows Like what's going on there. I don't know. Yeah, it's look, I mean, it's happened more than like a couple of times.

Charles:

Every bad idea we can think about somebody's doing it and thinking it's a good idea.

Dan:

I mean, are they trying to lie to like personal trainer or something like that? Is that what's going on?

Charles:

Maybe find my iPhone is on with their partner, oh.

Dan:

Holy cow yeah.

Charles:

And so they said they were going to sit in the gym talking to the person that they're cheating with or something I don't know.

Dan:

Oh, oh, it's getting juicy. We should do some sort of investigation and like go through the gym parking lot, I don't care, oh my God.

Charles:

To get that on. Knock, knock, knock. Why are you? What are you doing? What are you doing here right now? Charles from Dateline yeah, I don't know what they're up to, but there's, there's, I'm sure there's a reason. Interesting thoughts Go on dates with other women. If she finds out, tell her. You thought she wouldn't mind giving her current behavior.

Dan:

Wow, I would love to hear the response to that when you finish the sentence with giving your current behavior.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, I expected you wouldn't mind if I went on dates. I was like we haven't broken up, we haven't talked about that, what it's like. Yeah, all these are strategies for avoiding the discussion that you're scared to have, right, I mean for sure. Hey, I feel like things between us have kind of fallen off and you're not as into me as you used to be, and so I don't want to break up, but I do want to make a shot at fixing this. So I'm going to back off a little bit and I'm going to spend a little bit more time on the other things that are important to me, and if you find that I'm not around enough for you, then we can have a conversation about what it is we both want on this relationship.

Charles:

Sounds like a good start, but it's so scary to start that conversation that some of these, when you're in the middle of it, some of these things seem like a good idea.

Dan:

You know, these other things sound like a lot more work to kind of fake all this stuff versus you.

Charles:

just, you know, spending a little bit more time by yourself, well, I mean you know how much work they are is relative to what you're doing. What is it that scares you the most? Sometimes having an honest, vulnerable conversation about how you're feeling and how you take some work, how your needs are getting met are scary. That's scary than anything else to a lot of people, including me at some times in my life. Yeah.

Dan:

Like being able to sit down and say well, in this case, it's like it's not your needs that aren't getting met. It is oh, oh oh. I see what you're saying. Because she's not. She's not acting like she's attracted to you. All right, I was thinking from her perspective. She's not getting something she wants because she's lost attraction for you. I mean it's, I mean that's what I was thinking.

Charles:

but you're right, it's. It's rare that it's not some of the first. You're right, you know ultimately, yeah, it's yeah. Yeah, the. The temperature on a relationship doesn't take a nose dive unless both people aren't getting what they need out of the relationship.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean I think one person isn't getting what they need out of the relationship.

Charles:

That's well, let's talk that out. What do you give me an example Like? What do you think? And I think I'll be able to convince you that there's a second need that's not being met.

Dan:

I think ultimately ends with the second need not need not getting met. I think it can start out with one person's needs not getting met and I'm and I'm not blaming and I'm not saying it's one person's In a hypothetical example, man or woman whose whose needs are not getting met first?

Dan:

Oh, in whatever example you'd like to use, oh okay, so, uh, the woman's needs aren't getting met, let's say, because the guy isn't around as much as she wants them to be, for whatever reason. So she, you know she wants to bring him to all of her events and stuff like that, and he's, he's got his own stuff going on, and you know she's he. He's just not as available to her as she, as she wants them to be, so her expectations aren't being met. Her needs aren't being met. She needs somebody who's, who's more available, or vice versa.

Dan:

Or you know, maybe he's got kids from another marriage and he's got to take care of those kids and he's got to spend time, a lot more time with the kids than he has available to go on dates with her, you know. So she's not getting those needs met, and that's so I think. And it and again, it might just be it might not be a good fit with these two people's life situations, you know. So, I think so, I think that you know, um, and he might, maybe he's okay with that. So I think it could just be one person's needs. Ultimately, though, it will result in both people. It will result in both people because she's going to, she's either not going to be happy about it.

Dan:

She's going to react in a way, or she'll end things, and then he doesn't have a okay, that's fair. Yeah, it could start with one person not getting what they need and then if, if not addressed, correct which I think is very common for it to not be addressed, or at least not addressed in the right way.

Charles:

Correct. Yes, yeah, the hard conversation doesn't happen. It's, it's the. You know there's all these other problems that creep up, that are symptoms, and you'll you'll have the conversation how to deal with those little symptoms as they come up. Yeah, but the root of you know, I'm not feeling what I need to feel here. It's hard to have that conversation.

Dan:

Yeah, I think you know, because a lot of us aren't great at being comfortable bringing up things when they're upsetting, and I was one of those people. Yeah, it's, I know. I've been in relationships in the past where somebody's needs wasn't weren't getting met and the other person, instead of addressing it, would do something almost along the line not quite as bad as the you know what, what he's suggesting here and then the other person would get more upset and it just kind of snowballed one on top of the other, like well, you know you're not doing this and so I'm not going to do that, but it's never going to. It never comes and never addressed in a conversation, and then emotions are running high and then it just s snowballs out of some something that was probably really minor at the beginning and, because neither person wanted to address it, it just gets and it's blows up into something that didn't need to get there.

Charles:

Yeah, I, I mean I, I agree with you because I've I've lived it, I've seen it. Yeah, my friends, I've seen it in my own relationships. That's exactly what happens, like something, something that you or her don't understand is wrong and you don't know how to unpack it and dig into it together.

Dan:

So you just don't, don't even try, and then, yeah, eventually you can distract yourself with other fights and other issues and other you know and so, and I know, sometimes it it comes across and it has for me where, if I were to say this, it's going to look like I'm overly needy. And I saw I don't, I don't really want to say something or I'm asking for too much. Maybe, like this, there's a part of you that might where kind of?

Dan:

play, yeah, and that might also slow you down from you know, having that that type of conversation.

Charles:

Yeah, where I honestly do believe that. Um, yeah, that the least needy thing you can do is be honest. The neediness comes when you start engaging in behavior that is a result of your fear of being honest, and then you start doing all kinds of needy things to cover your fear and not look afraid. I know it's. How much time and energy do we put into that? So much, that's horseshit. It's so much and so much and so often, even though, even though we know how it shakes out, we know what we get. Oh yeah, I mean, in my own case, I still can't stop myself from having those impulses.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

Oh, because it's just, it's too hard to be completely honest of hey here's and you know the love languages book is so good because it lets you just chop things up into exactly hey, I've got this need and you know, for whatever legitimate purpose or reason or whatever, you're not in a place where you feel like you can, you can meet that need, and so it's just not getting met. And I'm not doing good right now. You know, as a result of me not getting the words of affirmation or physical touch that I need from you, I'm not doing great and I'm and I'm not going to be my best partner, I'm not going to be my best employee, I'm not going to be my best friend, I'm not going to be. All the roles that I have are being impacted by the fact that we're not in a place where we're meeting each other's needs and I don't know what to do about it. It sucks. Yeah, that's hard to. It's hard, it's hard to get that to your favorite person. That's impossible, Not impossible. It feels that way in the moment.

Dan:

I think if you can sprinkle a little bit of a, it's not your fault that this is happening, which is what I liked about the Love Language book, because it's just, the person is coming with a specific key and it's not going to fit into your lock because that's, that's the key that they built. So you know the way they show love is, you know, is gifts maybe, and then my lock says no, I need words of affirmation and it doesn't fit. And so you're just coming and it's just not. It's just like a lack of awareness. At that point, Right, and again I'm I question if people can actually change their love language, especially as an adult, because you kind of are built and your identity is built that way. I think you can make efforts in in, I think in different love languages. But then you know, is that a great connection? Do you have that natural? Yeah, Great connection? Yeah, Again, I don't know.

Charles:

Yeah, but my position on that is I am never going to stop expressing love in the love language that I have been built to give, but I can add some additional tools yeah, other languages on top of that. And so if I'm a gift giver, I'm always going to be a gift giver, but I but if I know that you're receiving language is not gifts, then I'm, I'm going to learn how and I'm going to put in systems and and processes and reminders to say, okay, here's how I need to give to you in words of affirmation or access service or quality time.

Dan:

So have you done that? I'm curious, and when have you actually done that in other relationships? No, of course not. Okay, I was just curious because it sounds like a lot of work, right, right and the whole thing right. And it's because it's not natural. That's my, that's. What I'm concerned about is because it's not your default. It seems like a lot of work to me and then, to me, does that take away from the connection, that genuine natural connection to have with somebody?

Charles:

I don't know, it's not natural for me to only eat 1400 calories a day, but am I wise, strong enough? I do it.

Dan:

Yeah, okay, that's fair.

Charles:

And I don't do it because I just woke up one day and decided okay, for a few more weeks I need to do this so that I can lose the weight that I want to lose. It's yeah, Okay. What can I do to dummy proof this and make my life easier by complying than it is by non-compliance? Right and?

Dan:

what I'm trying to figure out is how to optimize relationships, right. So if you, you know, are we better off just cutting and running if love languages don't line up, because it's gonna be so much easier and more natural and feel so much better for both people when they do Good question Versus you know trying to square, you know, banging that square peg to that round hole, because you're wise, so damn strong and I think in some cases.

Charles:

But I don't think you would apply that to almost any other positive habit that somebody's trying to make, like what's unique about love language that you would say that's the one where it's where cutting and running might be the solution Right.

Dan:

I'm not totally sold on that idea. I think you know there's obviously so many other factors and variables that go into that.

Charles:

Yeah because I believe, you know, attachment style is just, if not more deeply ingrained than love language, and you know we've got to believe that people can move from insecure attachment styles of you know, avoidant and anxious to secure, like there are ways you can. You can move, even as an adult. By doing some real tough stuff you can make it happen, people. You know what one man can do, another man can do, and so it is possible. It's just yeah sure. Is it worth it? Right? I would argue that it is.

Dan:

Yeah, is the juice worth the squeeze Right?

Charles:

That's what I'm wondering. And maybe you know, in the relationship you're currently in it's not, but maybe in another relationship it would be. I don't know, you know, probably, I don't know. Okay, the last one. Okay, two more. Tell her you're going to have sex with other women and that she doesn't need to bother you with her lack of sex and crappy attitude. Yeah, if you're in a monogamous, committed relationship with her and you just one day decide, because you're not happy with how she's treating you, I'm going to have sex with other women, just break up with her, you coward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, so angry, lightly spray yourself with a woman's fragrance when she asks why? Tell her you were just sampling some, which technically is true. But again, the spirit of what you're doing is to lie to her, even though the words that you give her are not a lie.

Dan:

I mean finish that sentence. Why were you sampling women's perfumes?

Charles:

You're sampling fragrances. It's no lie. You were, but she won't believe it for a second.

Dan:

Why? Again, that would be my first question, as the one pretend like she doesn't ask you that?

Charles:

I mean, why were you sampling them? Yeah, cause. Then you're in a position where you either have to tell her the lame ass truth or you have to lie to her.

Dan:

Right.

Charles:

I was buying you a book and it says that the way to straighten out your crappy attitude is to think there's not going to be a follow up question when you say something like that is ridiculous. Jinx Coke Okay.

Dan:

Growing up I always heard Jinx but never thought oh me a coke. Until I got older.

Charles:

Same. I only heard Jinx when I was younger.

Dan:

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's, you know. Notice it's never IO you a Pepsi, because Pepsi's terrible, no kidding.

Charles:

Okay, you know what that's. That's enough, we can stop there. Our next book is going to be self care for men sponsored by Pepsi. I would not take their. They could offer me a billion dollars and I wouldn't take. I do like their diet Dr Pepper product. I have never developed a taste for Dr Pepper yeah, never liked my ex-wife. I love Dr Pepper. I could never do it.

Dan:

Yeah.

Charles:

It's prune juice, I mean, it's carbonated prune juice.

Dan:

That's the taste, that again, and that's the root of the flavor profile, I'm pretty sure Put prunes in the front of my brain and see if I can match that up with the taste of diet.

Charles:

I don't even I've never had a glass of prune juice. I may have sipped it once in my life, but I've never had it like a glass of prune juice, snob.

Charles:

It's not because I'm too good for it, it's because, like I don't, I don't think I like this. Too good for certain fruit, too good for a lot of things, but I never had the idea that it was prune juice. There was a funny meme that I shared on my story right now, which actually people might hear this within 24 hours if I am really diligent about editing it, so it might still be on there, but you'll watch it, you'll think it's funny. It's basically a guy saying he has some narcissistic tendencies and it's hard to let new people into his life. As a result, he talks about going on a date and going home to his roommate. Like, are you gonna see her again? He's like no, probably not. Why you didn't have fun. He's like yeah, I had fun. I had fun because I was there.

Dan:

Oh my God, that's a historical.

Charles:

You know I was out there killing it. I was out there having a blast, but if I disappeared that whole date would have fallen apart. So I don't need to spend $90 to prove to watch myself be right. That's like, finally, I. So I immediately followed this guy's like, okay, I will follow his career with great interest. As the Emperor said to Anakin Skywalker.

Dan:

So do we want to talk about the next book?

Charles:

We're doing self care for men. Yeah, read a little bit of it already. Yeah, I've just read a section titles and that was enough to convince me to buy it, so we feel like it will be a little lighter, fair, we'll get through it quicker and we probably won't be crapping on the author for the whole second half of this book, like we did with this one.

Dan:

No, I like it because it's a lot of real simple, straightforward how tos for self care, and he does provide quite a few different examples and ways you can go about it so you can start real tiny and see some benefits right away from it. So this is and he covers everything from like meditation, journaling, to, you know, shaving and washing and also there.

Charles:

And I'm committed to trying all of the things in this book, even if there are some woo woo things that I think are dumb. If he, if he, wants me to put crystals in my underpants, then I'll try it and I will. I will shit all over it, but only after I've tried it.

Dan:

I think I'm going to do some acupuncture actually. I would try that to mention that in there, and I've got some of my arms tend to fall asleep. If I like, keep them above my my head a little bit too long, like when I'm sleeping, wake up they fall asleep. Interesting Shouldn't happen. So okay, I'm going to hopefully see what they can do for that.

Charles:

Yeah, I've noticed I've got a little bit of lack of sensation on the back of some of my shoulders where, okay, like I watch videos some of the ASMR videos I watch where people will like they'll have either something that's sharp or something that's dull and then they'll like rub it on you and either with your eyes closed or it's on your back you have to say that's sharp, that's dull, that's sharp, that's dull, and it kind of gives your doctor an idea for how you know how well your sense of feeling is in different parts of your body. And when I saw that I was like I'll bet I wouldn't be able. There's some parts of my shoulders that I don't think I could tell the difference between something that's sharp and something that's dull.

Dan:

I've never seen that on a body like, so I get it done as a type of diabetic. They're always concerned about my feet and blood circulation, so, but they just do like a tiny little, like needle on the bottom or on the bottom of my foot, just so I can feel that I've never had it done on any of the body parts.

Charles:

Yeah, I've seen where the shoulders, I don't know if I'd be able to feel much at all They'll have like and this could all be fake, because I watch these ASMR like medical exams that are all done by actors, because it's just relaxing but like, yeah, they'll take like a paintbrush or this little little metal tool with like a wheel on it and the wheel has like little sharp edges. Okay, and they will like roll that on you or they'll brush you with the paintbrush and the goal is to tell you know, oh, sharp or dull, sharp or soul, and yeah, I guess maybe we need to do that here on the podcast.

Dan:

Get you on video and get a little pizza cutter.

Charles:

Exactly. It's got to be based in some reality. I don't think they'd be doing it, I don't know for sure. Interesting you know, so we'll. But yeah, I will. I will get into this book Self-care for men. I will not, yeah, by a lot of guys. Last name is dunes or something like I don't know. We'll give you a link to it. Dunes, not no. Dunes, not no, We'll. Yeah, we're gonna do it. And again, I will not crap on anything in this book that I am not willing to try.

Dan:

All right, you guys, you heard that here, you heard it. He's not crap. He's not a lot of crap on anything.

Charles:

If I crap on it, it'll be because I tried it and I thought it was dumb, or I will say I did not try this. Okay, all right, there we go. I commit to you know, 100% honesty with this book, even if it has me trying stuff that I feel weird about. So there we go, all right, sir. All right, dan, I appreciate you hanging through. I know you're not feeling well. Dan's possibly on his way to being sick, but he decided to do this anyway because of some technical issues we had with our last recording of this podcast, and I am going to, before I leave you to your illness, I'm going to upload it and I'm going to try to edit it tonight or first thing tomorrow morning and get it out there because, yeah, today's Monday, we normally would release a podcast. Today I put out one of our greatest hits, according to just me. No, I had a good number of downloads, so maybe people liked it, I don't know and yeah, so we'll try to push this one out sometime tomorrow, for sure.

Dan:

Thanks for handling all those technical issues. Man, my pleasure All right have a great birthday, buddy.

Charles:

Thank you, it's been a good one. I've had fun today and I look forward to driving around in my fancy new car. Well, that's new to me Awesome. See you later, dan. Have a good one, bye.

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Charles

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