Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Skin Deep Conversations on Grooming, Tanning, and Nutrition

• On "Mindfully Masculine" we support and encourage men who strive to level-up their lives as we share books, media, and personal stories on mental health and well-being. Challenges in your personal or professional life? We deliver the tips and tools that t • Episode 116

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Ever wondered how to navigate the complex seas of men's skincare without capsizing under the weight of scented moisturizers and aftershaves? Let Charles and Dan be your seasoned crew on this voyage. We're confessing our skincare sins, from our often neglected routines to the greasy aftermath we all dread. But it's not all smooth sailing; we're tackling the tough questions about when to moisturize, the battle of the fragrances, and the simple alternatives that could save your skin from the deep end.

As our journey progresses, we cast a line into the sun-kissed waters of tanning and the risks versus rewards of chasing that bronzed deity look. Chafing—a plight as old as thighs themselves—is candidly discussed alongside practical tips to keep you gliding through life sans friction. And as for that golden glow? We're charting a course for achieving it without inviting the unwanted stowaways of UV damage, all while considering the environmental impact our sun protection choices make.

Before we dock, we take a detour through the foggy realm of nutrition research, dissecting the reliability of self-reported studies with the precision of seasoned sailors. And as the ink dries on our discussion about the colorful world of tattoos, we invite you to become part of our crew by following or subscribing. Trust us, it's smoother sailing ahead with every episode of the Mindfully Masculine podcast, where we ensure your next port of call is always informed, enlightened, and engaging.

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Charles:

Hello there, this is Charles, and thanks for listening to another episode of the Mindfully Masculine podcast. In this week's installment, dan and I will continue to discuss topics from self-care for men by Garrett Munz, covering lotions, moisturizers, tanning the kind that comes out of a bottle or nozzle as well as the more dangerous options, followed by some rants on processed foods and bad nutrition advice. Please follow or subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube. Thanks and enjoy.

Dan:

Good morning Charles. How are you Spectacular Dan, how are you?

Charles:

I'm well, all right, so we are recording. We just recorded the last episode, now we're going to record this one and we're going to talk about lotion. At least that's where we're going to start. Are you a lotion user, Dan?

Dan:

I'm an occasional lotion user. Yeah, yeah For my hands at night.

Charles:

I rarely do that. The only I don't know if you can call it lotion or if it's considered moisturizer. I put moisturizer with SPF something on my face and that's about it?

Dan:

Yeah, I'll use my moisturizer on my face as well. When you said lotion, yeah, I don't really it is it's throw all lotions, I guess.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah. For the most part I do not like lotion. It is. It feels gross. I don't like it when I get a massage. I don't like it to put on myself.

Dan:

Yeah, I prefer oil for massage.

Charles:

Oh, do you Yep? That yeah, but that's I don't know. They're both pretty. They both make me feel like I'm disgusting. I need to go take a shower immediately, as soon as this is over.

Dan:

So I think in a good massage they've got wet towels there hot towels and they. You know they'll wipe it down afterwards, and so you're not walking out like you're a hot mess, I still feel kind of like I need to go take a shower.

Charles:

Yeah, so, between the consistency, the smell, I am not a regular user, and so there's this. Yeah, we're going to be walking uphill a little bit in this chapter. I've read it twice now and he's not convinced me that I need to add lotion to my normal daily activities. Yeah, it's just. I mean he does say you know, don't make the mistake of only using lotion when you need it.

Dan:

It's like that's the mistake I make all the time, though. I mean, yeah, I, you know, when things are dry and chapped and cracked, that's when I'll put, like a moisturizer or lotion, on my elbows, my hands.

Charles:

And that almost never happens to me, so I never feel like I need it, so I never use it.

Dan:

I feel I don't know, whatever it is. I think during the wintertime I actually feel my hands getting drier and just for whatever reason, in my house at night that's when they get really dry and that's when I'll put on some lotion on my hands and it rubs in pretty well. It's just. It's basic gold bond.

Charles:

Yeah, the other thing is, yeah, the smell is a big factor for me. A lot of stuff smells too perfume or cologne and I don't like that. I mean that's you know I've talked about on the show before that I've switched to pretty much fragrance free everything except my actual fragrance that I use, the, the cologne that I use to smell the way I want to smell. Because, you know, as I understand it, it's very difficult to be the person who mixes up fragrances for Tom Ford or Yves Saint Laurent or, you know, even X body spray, the person who mixes the fray. That's a skill set, that that requires knowledge and a sensitive nose and a lot of things that I don't have. So the idea that I'm going to use a scented body wash and then a scented lotion and scented deodorant and scented shampoo and then throw my favorite cologne on top of it and think it's going to come together Right, very unlikely, yeah. So I do fragrance free, everything except for my fragrance, and so I smell like the actual fragrance smells.

Dan:

So I was doing the same thing, and then I was lucky enough to get a nice little set of aftershave, cologne and deodorant all with the same yeah, that's the way to do it from Dior, and it was it's.

Charles:

It's nice, and yeah, you're going to use keeping it consistent. You're going to use scented stuff for multiple pieces that make it same stuff. Right, yeah, because, yeah, I mean Irish spring mixed with some Irish spring head and shoulders plus some old spice body wash, or I guess the Irish spring would be the soap already. But yeah, you take all those things together and then, you know, expect that they're going to smell as good as your $100 bottle cologne is going to smell as good as it could after it's layered on top of all those other scents. No, not likely.

Dan:

And I don't remember if we talked about this with taking a bath or shower. But some of the soaps that we've been using in the past, like, or that we've getting squeaky clean, like from like Irish spring, whatever is not good because it removes all the oils and when you do that you're more likely to need lotion and oil after a shower. So maybe look for some soaps that maybe have some shea butter into it, some other moisturizing factors, and you might need not need to do the lotions quite as much.

Charles:

Yeah, and I would also say, you know, unless, if you've been not doing anything particularly effortful like working hard or working out, or you can also just shower with some hot water, not even put soap on your body, yep, and you can still get pretty clean with just blasted hot water all over yourself.

Dan:

And that, yeah, I mean, I think.

Charles:

I don't. I don't wash my hair every time I take a shower either.

Dan:

No, neither do I, and yeah, unless I'm like tripping in sweat, usually I'm opting mostly for just the water and then maybe a little something on my face. But other than that, you're right, you're removing all the good bacteria and all the oils and something like that that are supposed to be there on our skin when we would use any type of soap or moisturizer.

Charles:

Yeah, because it feels like when you use a fairly strong soap. It's like, okay, I'm going to get going to remove everything there is from my skin and then I'm going to use lotion or conditioner, right to put it back, to put off back all the stuff that I took away. Yeah, it seems like it's. There's probably a better way to do it than that. So, okay, so the skincare routine as recommended by the author is cleanse your body, use a gentle cleanser that doesn't strip your skin completely, like we were talking about. There you go. If you're especially sweaty, you may want to consider an option that includes charcoal, which helps absorb dirt. I've never washed with a charcoal anything, but I can see where that could help. And then it also says lots of men's body washes contain ingredients like tea tree and peppermint oil, which can be irritating and drying.

Dan:

So I mean, I guess you know if you've got some acne issues, maybe that might not be bad. Right now it might be the best if you've got really oily skin, but I think you need really oily skin for that to work. I overdid it one time when I was younger with tea tree oil and it just made my skin much worse. Yeah, yeah, I could.

Charles:

I could see that exfoliate so the skin on your body. You know, stuff dies, like your skin, and you don't want to hang it. You don't want the dead stuff hanging out around forever. So there's a couple of options for exfoliation. You can and I've used both. You can use soap that has salicylic acid in it and that will help get the dead stuff off. Or you can use something with a little bit of a texture, like sandpaper, exactly, yeah, like those little beads that you get in some things. I don't think they can be made out of plastic anymore. I think those have been outlawed, so the beads that they use now are made out of something that can sort of break down once it goes down your drain. Yeah, but yeah, I've used both of those. And uh Well, we talk about the tanning chapter. I will, I'll usually use my salicylic acid soap before I go to tan. Which boy this guy does not like tanning beds?

Charles:

No, he does not about that when we get to that chapter.

Dan:

I've used a peach pit scrub that it's all natural, whatever but, and that's that's worked pretty well for exfoliation as well.

Charles:

Yeah, there's a shampoo. It's American crew has a version of their shampoo that has, like, ground up seashells in it.

Dan:

Oh, interesting Okay.

Charles:

Yeah, you can use that, for it's like they're anti dandruff, anti dry scalp shampoo and it feels and smells pretty good. But it smells pretty strong to. Yeah, a lot of their stuff does. Yeah.

Dan:

I had this really weird idea in college, right after college, to start making soap. What? What happened was we're in a shore house in Jersey and there was an outdoor shower and people had bars of soap and we're using soap and of course you're coming back from the beach so we're covered in sand. And One time I dropped the soap you know, rookie, rookie prison mistake but I I picked it up and we had sand on it and I'm like, oh my god, it's exfoliating too. And I was like, oh, I was like you know, this might be something to do. So I was thinking you could go to all the different beaches and get sand from those beaches and make sandy soap and Market it. This is from South Beach, this is from LBI, this is from, you know, malibu. Whatever right, I mean this. You know, high-end soap that does a little exfoliation because and it's got, you know, the sand in it from that local beach might be cute little tourist gifts, it might be cute tourist.

Charles:

You know I don't know about the efficacy of actually using real sand as the exfoliating soap. That seems like a great question. I don't know. We should look into that. Feels like it could be pretty rough.

Dan:

Nobody's still that side yeah.

Charles:

We've got a week to bring it to market.

Dan:

Okay, all right, let's get on it, okay.

Charles:

So then, after you've exfoliated, lotion or oil is recommended, which, again, just taking the time to put on something I don't like in the first place, yeah, that's a hard sell, man, I don't see myself doing it. And I mean somebody, somebody, somebody more that I, that I trust even more than the author of this book, would have to tell me no, no, you have to do this. And here's why because right now I'm just like, eh, I'm not gonna do it. Yeah, I'm certainly not gonna do oil. Yeah, I mean both of those. I do have a moisturizer that I use in my hair, and it's for hair. It's the tea tree hair and body moisturizer. Hmm, and I will usually use that in my hair every every time I get out of the shower, and if my beard is getting a little long as it is now, sometimes, I'll rub some of it into the beard, soften it up a little bit. Yeah, but yeah, nice to think of doing it on my whole body. Absolutely not.

Dan:

It's a little bit more of a time commitment as well. And something I didn't realize here, that the the difference between lotions and oils is that the lotions have a Humectants which actually draw moisture from the air. Yeah, that helps moisturize you a little bit more where oils don't yeah, I thought I didn't know that.

Charles:

I didn't. I didn't know that and yes, that was interesting. How about shaving? Do you find yourself chafing under any circumstances?

Dan:

I do when I've gained a little too much weight and my thighs start rubbing together. I have gotten a long, slightly longer boxer briefs to handle that. Okay, but still happens once in a while.

Charles:

Yeah, what? Yeah, it'll happen to me if, if I get very sweaty and I'm walking a lot, so long height be an issue. Yeah, really, since I switched from cotton briefs to synthetic I, it hasn't been as much of an issue, but if I'm doing a long hike I will still get you know. Like I REI, they sell those little sticks of anti-shaving stuff.

Dan:

Yeah, runners probably use frequently as, yeah, when I was running a lot, sometimes my nipples get really shaved, but I would, I would.

Charles:

They have a little caps to or band-aids, okay.

Dan:

So yeah, when they got really bad, you put a band-aid over and I would just stop the rubbing of the shirt on the nipple interesting.

Charles:

Yeah, I never. I've never had the shirt versus nipple battle, but I have had inner thighs. Yeah, yeah, I find baby powder, plus the little anti-shave stick. Yeah, we'll do the trick for me. Yeah, I got sensitive nipples, so, all right, good to know, I'll allow that to your dossier. Sweet, okay, you know, I had one let's. Let's go ahead and jump into tanning. I think we got plenty of time, unless you got more to say about lotion. Nope, I do not. I, yeah, I get that I should be using it, but I don't want to and so I probably won't, and maybe that'll, you know, once, once I get the skin cancer from my tanning practice, then I'll start using lotion, because you know that gets rid of skin cancer right.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah. So people who are I mean generally speaking, tan people look healthier than pale people, and so many of us may feel like we should look tanner than we currently do, and we will. We will get on board with okay, what can I do to get tan and look tan, and what? What are the trade-offs? I guess would be the question. So what is tanny? Tannies is when ultraviolet radiation Tells your skin, hey, you need to be darker than you currently are to survive in this place, and then Melanin will be produced and that will cause your skin to get darker in color. Once your body has kind of maxed out with what it can offset through melanin production is when your skin cells will start to Mutate as a cool that's. You'll get a burn, right, yeah, yeah, you'll. You'll get burned and you'll feel the pain.

Dan:

It'll look pink and that's when, yeah, your skin cells could start mutating in response to the UV radiation that they have been exposed to you know, it's interesting that we all or generally it's Consensus that people look healthier with a tan or they look better with a tan, and I think I really comes back to our on a primal being, where we spent most of our time outside right being active and doing things, and I feel like that was just another way of being able to tell how Active somebody was, because they were, they were tanner right, because if you're sickly You're gonna skip the hunt and stay in the cave and be pale and white, right, right, yeah, and I had an argument with an X, basically because she was like, oh no, humans are meant to be inside.

Dan:

and I was just like, really like, based on what right of built like they're not meant to be outside, you know, and but very paranoid about getting, you know, skin cancer and, and you know, just being outside. Also, she didn't like the water at all, the ocean, so she never wanted to get in there, but I just I was like what, what makes you think humans are meant to be inside? We haven't been living in buildings, I mean maybe last couple hundred years at most, right, you know, and even then, and even then we spent a lot of time outside doing other stuff. Yeah, so yeah, that just didn't line up.

Charles:

Where did she get her degree in anthropology?

Dan:

She did not interesting.

Charles:

She did not get a degree in any say. I would recommend against that school Her doctorate in anthropology and says we're meant to live inside.

Dan:

No, there was. There are no degrees to be found.

Charles:

All right. Well, I mean not that we're looking down on people with no degrees, because that would include me, and I only look up to myself. Fair enough, but in this case, yeah, the the lack of formal education plus the lack of common sense. When those two come together.

Dan:

I just didn't quite understand. Yeah, yeah, there was no. There's no logic for me behind that.

Charles:

Yeah all right. So here's how you get a tan. The safe way, dan you, you use sunscreen, at least a SPF 30, which I never remember what the math is on those sunscreen levels. It's supposed to be how long you can Spend in the Sun.

Dan:

Look before forget the math. Okay, deal as soon as you start getting red, get out of the Sun.

Charles:

Well, it's not someone. Some could say as soon as you start getting red is too late, you've already done the damage.

Dan:

Well, I mean you're gonna do. I mean again, you can tell a little bit of red versus a deep red where it's painful. But just have somebody check you every once in a while and and you can see you're starting to get a little red and then at that point I don't think there's that much damage that gets done when you're just a little bit of red. You know, and this is if you're looking to maximize your hand based- on Dan's vibes and nothing else.

Dan:

Well, this is based on my experience. Yeah, where I have you. When I've left the Sun, when I've gotten out of the Sun, when I'm a little bit of red, I don't burn, it turns brown. Okay, when I've Said, screw it, I'm gonna fly this kite for another hour, I've had some problems that I've had. I've had sheets of skin peeling off of me. Yeah, not not exactly the best thing, but I want to talk about sunscreen.

Dan:

There's been a lot of studies that have come out recently that a lot of really popular brands have Basically been shown to have cancer causing ingredients, known cancer causing ingredients in them. If you go to consumer lab Com, there's a lot of articles and I think even if you're not a member, it'll give you some information about some of the tests that were done. And the problem was a lot of these Sundance, these skin, these, these lotions Didn't list this ingredient that was being used. And no, it's not so there's a little bit of not all of them, but there's a lot of them and a lot of the stores, fortunately, have been removing them from the shelves. My, I did some digging on it and it looks like, if you get, like an all-natural mineral, like a zinc oxide.

Charles:

I hate those. They're the worst.

Dan:

You're not gonna need to worry about that stuff now. They also make Lotions now where the zinc oxide does not show up as white all over your skin it's. It's processed in a certain way where it's like micronized or whatever that is, and you won't. You won't be like a white sheet Like you see the people like on the, you know lifeguards with the, the white noses, like that. That's the old school zinc oxide.

Charles:

Yeah. So the I mean yeah, when, when Errol and I went to Hawaii a few years ago. Yeah, it's very important that you only have reef safe Mmm-hmm sunscreen.

Dan:

Yeah, and the and there's, one is zinc oxide. Is that the only one that's the reef safe?

Charles:

There's a couple I think there's a titanium formula, okay yeah, uh-huh, and and there are many like Hawaiian tropic and stuff. They claim that their stuff is all reef safe, but they they still. Basically, if it goes on and rubs in easily, it's not the best for probably your skin or for the reefs and a lot of that also is the aerosol ones as well.

Dan:

Oh, those are the best, those are I know the most convenient? Yes, sure, yeah, absolutely. But they don't make zinc oxide like that I don't know.

Charles:

I don't think they do either. And yeah, it's putting on the kind where, basically the mineral-based ones, they're literally physically blocking the the radiation, instead of inter rubbing into your skin and Interacting with how your skin responds to the radiation. They are like putting it's like a wall between the radiation and your and your skin.

Dan:

Yeah, and I think it's good, once you've been out in the sun a little bit, you've gotten your tan and then you still need to be out in the sun. Maybe go for something that hard.

Charles:

The application of it, though, is such a pain. It just doesn't rub in, it gets it's. It's all Gluy on your hands. I just like lotion. Yeah, I, you and I are very different in so many ways, but when I hear something's got cancer causing ingredients I'm like, oh, but that's the best one. I bet that works.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean that's that's. The thing is, a lot of these companies are Getting there trying to get their products sold, so they're going to try to make it as easy to use and Comfortable right, and that comes down to you know, skin care, food right. All this other tastes yummy, absolutely yeah okay, so wear sunscreen.

Charles:

and then it goes into a little bit about Sunless tanning, which I guess he talks about the version of it where you do it yourself at home and where you go to a place. Mm-hmm, I've never done Sunless tanning, I've never had any experience with that. Um, I, I assume you probably have, because I have done more things than I have. Yeah, it comes to Tanning at least. Yeah, a lot of stuff about your body. You've tried some stuff I haven't tried, mm-hmm. So what's that like? What is you? You go into a place and you stand in front of a bunch of novels.

Dan:

So you never saw that. Friends up over Ross. It's just, it's basically like that, but less confusing. Okay so also just yeah, that was, it's just less confusing.

Charles:

But oh, that's right. Yeah, like turn around when he wasn't supposed to and stuff right and it's the same thing.

Dan:

you turn around and, but it's step by step, it's really easy, and they spray you and you just tell them how dark you want to be okay, now from his Ex, it works pretty well.

Charles:

Talking about dye hydroxy acetone, it reacts to the dead cells on the surface of your skin and temporarily darkens them. By reacting and temporarily Darkening darkening, does it it paints you a color, or does it actually prompt a chemical reaction that makes your skin change color?

Dan:

So I don't have an answer that question, but to me it sounds like that's a chemical reaction.

Charles:

No, but what was your experience? Did it feel like you were being painted with something, or did it? Oh yeah, you're sprayed, basically it's, it's like spray, spray paint, Basically yeah, okay, so the stuff that comes out is a color. Oh yeah, and is that color?

Dan:

Yeah, and correct.

Charles:

Okay, so that feels more like you're just being spray painted to me then. Yeah, I mean you could say that when you spray paint on the surface of your car, it interacts with the surface of the car to be more red or black or whatever color you're painting your car. Yes, so I don't know. It feels like he's he's trying hard to make this sound fancier than it actually is. Your You've painted your body, basically. Okay. So, yeah, all right, and what? Like? How soon does it dry? Does it rub off on stuff? I mean, tell me, tell me what your experience was. Take it from start to finish.

Dan:

I guess it depends on when you're doing it, if you're like doing it at home versus doing it at a yeah, I'm mostly concerned with having somebody do it.

Charles:

You go into a place to get it done. Yeah, it's. Is it a person that does it or is it? No, it's all Well, you can.

Dan:

You can get someone, a person, to do that. So, like a lot of the bodybuilders, will have someone do that my hand right little fancier. But yeah, at a place, yeah, I mean you're, you're dry fairly quickly after that because it's, it's a fine little mist, but you don't, you don't want to, you don't want to sweat, you don't want to run. I would probably wear some old clothes, like a t-shirt and sweatpants or something like that, so you don't get it on stuff like in your car or whatever else like that.

Charles:

How long does it take? So you go to a booth, you take your clothes off. It blasts you. Do they like, blast some air on you Afterward to dry it like fans or something, I think.

Dan:

I remember that. I think they might.

Charles:

It's been a while dude to be honest with you, so then it's what you put your clothes back on, you leave correct, and then does it get darker the longer away from the Session I think it depends.

Dan:

So I think some of them it might actually darken over time a little bit.

Charles:

There might be some chemical reaction, I would say as well if you care about knowing about this, don't just listen to us because we go to a place and ask questions. Yes, I was gonna say watch a YouTube video.

Dan:

But yeah yeah, that.

Charles:

Yeah, we're not expert. I've never done it. Dan did it a while ago.

Dan:

And I my memories a little foggy on the details about it causing stuff you use correct. Yeah, it's definitely safer than the tanning bed itself it would.

Charles:

It would seem so, and I have used those frequently and probably still will. And we get to that part of the chapter. I'll tell you why. Next is bronzer. That's a temporary Tan, especially on your face. Basically, you get moisturizer that has some pigment in it and then when you put it on yourself, then your skin looks a little tanner than it would otherwise and it will Wipe off on other stuff. I know I've never used it, but Although I think I've used sunscreen with bronzer or tanning lotion with bronzer and it does definitely have a pigment to it and it makes your skin look a different color. Yeah, and it does seem like it could very potentially wipe off on something you wouldn't want to wipe off on. Oh, absolutely, yes, okay.

Charles:

So if you're gonna use sunless tanning products, exfoliate first and again, that's through Something with salicylic acid or something with a texture to it. Make sure that you've been completely dried. Massage in the product of your choice. Be careful around your joints, because they can absorb more lotion and tanner than other parts. Wash your hands very well and then follow the directions to. You know, go the recommended time that it says, which it could be a few minutes to overnight. Dry off again before you get dressed and then keep your skin moisturized to keep the tan there it is again, or lotion.

Charles:

Yeah, and then get professional help. If the sounds too complicated which I would certainly not try to do this myself I would go to a place and have them do it for me. All right? Um, stay away from tanning beds.

Charles:

People used to think that indoor tanning was safer than sitting in the Sun, and by people that includes me, I still think it's safer because, look, as an engineer, I am about minimizing variables, where, when you're sitting out laying out in the Sun outside, there are a whole lot of variables about what's going on in the atmosphere, what's going on in pollution, what's going on in the part of the right year you're in the part of the world you're in, where, if you go into a tanning bed and what I always, I always use less than the maximum number of time, sometimes half, sometimes less than half, and then I just know, okay, I'm gonna have to pay to do this a little bit more often because I'm not using the whole six minutes or eight minutes or whatever. I feel like I'm controlling more of the variables when I use a tanning bed and I always use a stand-up ones, I never use a lay-down kind. Yeah, I feel like I'm controlling more of the variables and so I can go in there, if I can pay for six minutes and only use two minutes, and then notice, okay, I look a little pink when I get out and then by that night I don't have any. There's no burning, there's no tingling, there's no, nothing. And then, okay, in another three days I'll go back and, you know, add 30 seconds or one minute to the process, yeah, and ramp my way up to me again.

Charles:

I'm not a dermatologist, I'm not, I'm just a dumb guy with opinions. Well, I'm a genius with opinions, but I'm not educated in this matter. And it just makes sense to me that if you start very slow and never use the full time, you can predictably and Probably safe again to my yeah, I mind it feels like, oh, if you do it this way, it's gonna be safer than just going to the beach for a day and hoping that you get a tan and not a burn the.

Dan:

The question that I've got is the Raise that are being produced artificially in the tanning bed. Is it possible that they could be causing cancer without getting burned like? That's the question. I don't know that that way, but I know that I've gotten burned far more times being in the sun Than I have at a tanning bed right, so I used to go regularly to burn the symptom of damage being done or not. Correct right, right, and then yeah.

Charles:

So then, because, yeah, the you know Every, every tanning place I've been to has like different levels and they always say that the highest level, like the level five, that's the most expensive uses. You know there's what UVA and UVB and and the higher-end ones are supposedly going to use a kind of UV that will not burn your skin, like you won't get burned, you'll only get darker right and and less time.

Dan:

It's more intense right but does yeah, but what are the?

Charles:

Yeah, I've not read anything. I generally, when people it with a medical background speak on tanning beds, it's always tanning beds are bad, End of story. I've not read anything that says okay, well, actually, you know, we did a study and the level one tanning beds suck and they'll give you cancer and the level five tanning beds are okay. Yeah, I must say I'm looking for that conclusion. I'm just looking for something that says, okay, there is, you know, the difference you pay for at the tanning place. There actually is a difference in how they, the methodology or the you know what they do is actually different.

Dan:

And I'd be curious, the data that they're coming back with the people that they're asking, are these people who only go to tanning beds and then comparing them to only people who only go out in the sun, versus, I mean, I don't know many people who only use one or the other? So then, how do you tell where the cancer is coming from?

Charles:

Self-reported studies are pretty much worth.

Dan:

Yes, I'll forget that.

Charles:

And so, yeah, it's gotta be. Yeah, for a study like this, you've got to essentially lock people in a place and then have them tan and measure the results, because I mean, those are because, yeah, with something like sunlight, like how do you control what they're doing when they're not participating in the study? I don't know.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, you know, he does mention that there's an FDA warning on each of the tanning beds now these days, but there's still lots of tanning places.

Charles:

So if it's really been shown to cause cancer, are Well, we sell cigarettes and there's an FDA warning on those and I think they might cause cancer. They might, they just might. They'll sell them. Yeah, I guess that's fair. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, tanning places could be as bad for you as cigarettes and still be legal.

Dan:

I don't know.

Charles:

That's fair. But, yeah, I again, what am I gonna rely on? Am I gonna rely on my own intuition about this or am I gonna rely on what I believe is a limited amount of data? That I mean, I'll probably rely on my own intuition because I'm stubborn and I'm willing to live with the consequences. But, yeah, I, if somebody could show me or send me some information that says, okay, no, we've. We have other people who thought they were smart, have tried what you've tried and we know that they've gotten cancer and here's how, then that would probably back me off of what I think makes sense. Yeah, but you know, I set high standards for when I wanna, you know, when it's time to change my behavior about something that I think makes sense, I can be a little stubborn.

Dan:

You know, the other piece of this is that there was cancer-causing agents found in a lot of sunscreens. So how are we to say that it was the tanning that caused the cancer versus the actual agents that you're putting on your skin before you go in the tanning bed or before you go out in the sun?

Charles:

Or the combination of the cancer-causing ingredients plus the UVA UVB radiation from so many permutations, yeah it's like when, when people start saying that you know people who eat meat are more likely to get cancer, it's like okay, but what else are they eating?

Dan:

And what else? And what else are they doing, right?

Charles:

you know? Is it, you know, people eating uncured bacon or grass-fed beef? Or are they eating that grass-fed beef and that uncured bacon in a triple bacon cheeseburger that they've put together with a whole bunch of other stuff, Right?

Dan:

And is how do they get this data? They stick them in a lab and monitor them all the time. Or was it self-reported? Yeah, it's probably, which doesn't mean shit.

Charles:

Yeah, self-reported studies are. Yeah. I, I feel like.

Dan:

Tell me how much meat you've eaten over the last month, what? Or weak even. And if you're not, if you're not measuring Even if I was tracking with my app, I would still need to look at the app. I couldn't, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head and I wouldn't be.

Charles:

You know, and and I wouldn't be sure I mean, because even if you use the barcode of the of the food you bought, you know there's food calories make their way calories, carbs, fat grams, protein stuff. Even when you're fairly religious about logging your food, stuff makes its way into your diet that you know through just air margins of error when it comes to the reporting of nutrition facts, as well as you know stuff that you forgot that you ate or you know. I was, you know, at the company birthday party for everybody who had a birthday in January and I just had a little bite of Like stuff. Like that happens and it doesn't always make it into your log and yeah so. So I kind of wonder why they still do self. I guess for some stuff that's the only way you can study.

Dan:

It is through self-reported technologies, but I mean maybe, maybe don't act like your value.

Charles:

Your conclusions are valuable or as valuable.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, maybe I could see it Serving the purpose of Saying hey, we're seeing an association here. Let's get funding for a clinical trial where we can actually. Be a little bit more strict about what's going on here to get a better answer.

Charles:

Yeah, but the media never sells it to us that way. It's always, you know, that's not sexy. A a study had a surprising result and now we're going to share it with you Without telling you anything about how the study was conducted, because you probably won't understand anyway. Yeah, which that part's true. I mean most people, you know. Again, we've talked the you know, the do your own research crowd is usually the people usually say and do your own research, don't know how to do research at all.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, it's really not as complicated as people think it is. But yeah, you're right, that's not how we're sold it. It's not, doesn't make for fancy headlines, it's not clickbait. If, if, if they're saying oh well, the study doesn't mean anything because it was self-reported, it wasn't double-blind, placebo, controlled, it wasn't right it was.

Charles:

it was funded by x, y, z, yeah, yeah, which you know it's. It's wild how much of the studies about, you know, carnivore type dieting and Vegan dieting is based on. I mean, the money's coming from somebody who's got a very, yeah, a very big. We got a lot of skin in the game. As far as what the conclusion of the study is gonna be, oh for sure, and so not. And again, I don't believe that that necessarily changes what I Don't think that you've got doctors and researchers, just you know, drawing an X through the real data and writing in fake data. But you know, if I'm, if I'm, in the meat business and I sponsor a study about meat and it doesn't come out the way that I want it to, it'll just get buried. Nobody'll ever hear of it, right?

Dan:

it doesn't get published, right?

Charles:

Yeah, I'm not asking people to put fake information in and then put it out there. I'll just, I'll just put it, I'll just bury the study and make sure that it never sees a light of day.

Dan:

Well, I mean you know the whole like ancill keys story about cholesterol and so that's what he's was basically a guy Years ago who Came up with the whole idea that, first of all, high cholesterol is caused by eating dietary cholesterol. Dietary cholesterol, so meat and fat, right, right. And what he did was he found a correlation, basically in certain countries where people who had heart disease and high cholesterol ate a lot of meat, and what he didn't report on was that they also ate a lot of carbohydrates as well. And he cherry picked the data, so he didn't look at everybody, he just picked the, the countries where that happened to, to correlate.

Dan:

So James McGovern in I guess he was a senator back in the 60s. He was on. He thought everybody should be eating a low-fat diet because of this, and so what they did was they hired a bunch of researchers and scientists to actually study this, and what happened was the. He brought them all in and they all told him we need to wait until the day. We need more data to determine whether a low you know, a high fat diet or a high meat diet causes heart disease and or high cholesterol. And he's like well, unfortunately, unlike researchers where you've got the Privilege of waiting for all the data to come in, as a senator we don't. So, basically, that's when they came up with the food guide pyramid and the USDA.

Dan:

Before that was the basic four for basic food right, right, but we had been eating in the 50s a lot of meat and Butter and eggs and that was what was being recommended and Everybody was. There's a lot of people who are at a normal weight. There wasn't a lot of adult onset diabetes. Children weren't getting diabetes when they were, you know, younger the type 2 diabetes. And so then, ironically, all the food companies that make processed foods, cereals, things like that they got in bed with the government and Basically, the government came up with this that the USDA's food guide pyramid, where the core of eating should have been is, was recommended to be carbohydrates and 7 to 10 servings of carbohydrates a day, and they ignored the data and they Said well, we don't have time to dismiss the data. Since then, a lot of data has come back in and science has shown that Basically, it's a combination of eating carbohydrates with fats or carbohydrates with protein that causes heart disease, causes problems with cholesterol, things like that.

Charles:

So yeah, it's, it's very, it's interesting, it's. So I mean, looking back on it, it seems so naive to Come to a conclusion, like like something that we would do when we were hunter-gatherers like oh, that guy eats a lot of meat from a very fat animal, so therefore it's gonna make him fat, like if you put fat in your mouth Then that's gonna turn into fat around your belly.

Dan:

So the ironic thing was the part of this. So I was. There's a great movie called fat head kids and it's by this guy called Tom Norton and he describes basically that, what I just described and that, that philosophy. But what they found was feeding pigs Breakfast cereal with milk. Fatten them up the best over any other type of food. Interesting, wow. And if you remember when we were kids growing up, every time we saw breakfast cereal commercial, it was part of this, part of this nutritious breakfast.

Dan:

Yeah, yeah and it was toast, orange juice, toast with a little butter on it, orange juice and then a bowl of cereal with milk, and they did it. And it was amazing. They did it for you know, raisin brand and lucky, lucky charms, and fruit loops and cocoa puffs, and the American Heart Association Approved all of these serials. There's all. If you look at those boxes, cereal, they say, because it's a low-fat food, even though it's full of sugar and processed garbage. Right, they have the stamp of approval from the American Heart Association, like it's like a health food. Yeah, so fortunately, with the dawn of the internet, people, people are waking up and getting more information and they're realizing. You know, the way to to control our, our appetites and our, our weight is is through eating more whole foods, things that are closer to nature fruits, vegetables, meat, things that come from nature and not stuff that's made in a bag or a box.

Charles:

So yeah, and it seems like you. If you want to lose weight, you've got to focus on a heavy-sided diet in one area or the other, like cut out the fats and eat healthy carbs, or cut out the carbs and eat the healthy fats, and it's the combination that seems to make food the tastiest and puts a bunch of weight around your belly.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean. Here's the thing, too is, even if you are eating healthy carbs and with the fats and everything else like that, these are healthy carbs, right, these are stuff coming from nature. You're not likely to overeat on them and you're also getting the nutrients. So one of the biggest indicators of whether we stop eating satiety or not is how much nutrients we have, and the problem with the processed stuff is it's devoid of nutrients. If you're eating real food, no matter what it is, you're going to be less likely to be hungry. So that's one of the things that I'm working on is having more real meals and I'm cutting back on the keto chow.

Charles:

Yeah, you don't. Yeah, not many people have said, as delicious as it is, I've gotten fat because I overeat on steak. You know, I have one 16 ounce rib eye or four. I go have another 16 ounce rib eye.

Dan:

I've had too many bananas.

Charles:

Yeah, or eight, too much spinach yeah. Doesn't happen, no it's the processed food that gets you into trouble.

Dan:

It's not the and I think really you know, in the chemicals it starts right out in the tongue and I think it goes right to the brain and it gets you in the mood. I've never been eating really healthy and then I mean, for me it's having a delicious keto chow shake and I get those flavors and everything else like that. Before I know it, I'm creating more sweet stuff, even though there's like no sugar or natural sweeteners in them. Yeah, I definitely kind of I notice a difference when, after I have, one, it's still.

Charles:

Every time we talk about your experience with keto chow, it blows my mind Like I cannot believe. What do you mean? That you've turned this meal replacement shake into a snack food?

Dan:

Delicious, it's a dessert.

Charles:

It tastes good enough for me to you know when I'm when I'm getting serious about my diet, to do one or two shakes a day instead of a meal. But the idea that you think it's good enough to snack on just blows my mind. To treat, it's a treat, it is insane, oh my gosh. Like, yeah, I'll do it as a meal replacement because it gets me toward my goal. But yeah, just, it's not.

Charles:

Like not being able to stop myself from eating it. That would never have. Oh, I will. If I own stock in the company I would be selling, with you announcing that you're cutting down your, your consumption, because I know you've gone through a fair amount of it. Yeah, all right, I think that's a good spot for us to start where, a few minutes before your hard stop. And we covered what I wanted to cover about tanning. So again, I I may have some stupid ideas that I need to do some work on when it comes to tanning beds. I think I do. I think I do need to do a little bit of a deep dive here and see what the best way to behave with this is, but the stuff I want to do just seems to make so much sense to me. Is that crazy A little?

Dan:

bit, a little bit, but I think we could dig into that a little bit more. I don't know if the jury is out for sure about tanning beds absolutely causing cancer, if you're going and doing it in a reasonable way versus Right, but what's a reasonable way, correct?

Charles:

Versus coming out with burns right.

Charles:

Right, yeah, and you know, if, if you're going for the full time every other day, which is the max I think you're allowed to, then is that different enough for what I do to to make it go from being unhealthy to healthy? Yeah, I don't know, it feels like it might be, but again, that's, guys. It's not how we should make our decisions. We don't make our decisions based off of vibes. We make our decisions based off of data, at least when we're when we're when we're functioning optimally. We make our decisions based on evidence, not based on what we would like to be true. So I've got I've got some work to do in that area. So there we are. All right, dan, thank you very much, and we will. The next chapter will be about tattoos, your favorite last five minutes and I'll be done.

Charles:

Well, we'll see about that. Yes, we will All right, talk to you later, bye, bye, bye. Wow, you made it through the whole thing, so you must like us at least a little bit, in which case you should definitely follow or subscribe to our show in your chosen podcast app. Thanks, we'll talk to you next time.

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