Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
How (and When) To Say You’re Sorry
Introduction
In this episode, we delve into the topic of apologizing effectively. We'll reference key insights from "The 5 Love Languages for Men" by Gary Chapman and outline the structure of our discussion, covering the essential points from the book, additional insights, and personal anecdotes.
Discussion Points
We begin with an overview of the importance of apologies in relationships, highlighting their role in maintaining and repairing connections. We also mention Brene Brown’s podcast "Unlocking Us" and Dr. Harriet Lerner's book "Why Won't You Apologize?" as valuable resources for understanding the nuances of apologizing.
We discuss the idea that "The man who apologizes for everything and the man who apologizes for nothing share the same weakness." This highlights the need for balance in offering apologies and avoiding extremes.
Next, we introduce the concept of the five apology languages: expressing regret, accepting responsibility, making restitution, genuine repentance, and requesting forgiveness.
We then provide a detailed breakdown of each apology language. Expressing Regret emphasizes the importance of specificity, such as the difference between saying "I’m sorry" and just "Sorry." Accepting Responsibility focuses on acknowledging one's wrong actions and understanding the role of intent versus impact. We provide example apologies to illustrate these points. Making Restitution involves offering to make amends, like asking, "What can I do to make it right?" Genuine Repentance shows a commitment to change by developing systems to avoid repeating mistakes. Requesting Forgiveness involves asking for forgiveness as a way to heal relationships, for example, "I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me."
Charles and Dan share personal experiences with apologies, discussing common mistakes and how to avoid them. They stress the importance of aligning apologies with personal values to ensure sincerity.
Key Takeaways
The key takeaways from this discussion are that sincerity in apologies is crucial and understanding and utilizing apology languages can significantly strengthen relationships. Apologies should address not only the act but also the impact on the other person.
Conclusion
We conclude by recapping the importance of effective apologies and encouraging listeners to take the "Five Apology Languages" quiz to better understand their own and their partners' apology preferences. Finally, we tease the topic for the next episode, leaving listeners with something to look forward to.
Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Okay, we're getting toward the end of 5 Love Languages for Men and in this episode, dan and I will be discussing apologies. We will cover the 5 apology languages, examples of good and bad apologies, the damage caused by poor apologies, how to prove that you're really sorry and breaking the pattern of endless offenses and apologies, as well as some other topics. Please like or subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app and also check out our full episodes with audio and video on YouTube. Thanks and enjoy Good morning.
Dan:Charles, how are you?
Charles:I'm well. Thank you very much, dan. How are you? I am also well. How's your week on today's Friday? A little, are you. I'm well. Thank you very much, Dan. How are you? I am also well. How's your week going Today's Friday? A little choreo for it.
Dan:Yeah, week's been good. Week's been good. I've gotten back into some healthy routines, planning my day on a daily basis, reviewing my day on a daily basis, and that really makes such a difference in terms of how well I work during the day, how much I enjoy doing the things that I'm doing and being able to really stay on task and not let the little things distract me as much.
Charles:When you say planning your day on a daily basis, do you mean you get up on Monday and say here's what I'm going to do today, or you're planning it in more advanced than that? Both.
Dan:Actually, I've got a little weekly planner that I hand write out my schedule.
Dan:So what I do is I translate that from my calendar, my Outlook calendar, to this weekly planner template that I've printed out, because I've got that constantly in front of me.
Dan:I don't want to have my calendar for email in front of me, because I've attempted then to check my email and get distracted from whatever I'm supposed to do. So if I need a quick reminder and my brain is like going all over the place, I'm like, hey, what am I supposed to be doing? I can take a quick look in front of me and I've got that written out there. So then I write that in advance for the week, like on Sunday, and then as the days go by, obviously plans change and meetings get changed and updated and everything else like that. So then every morning I will review what I've got, make any changes if I need to, and at the end of the day, before I leave my desk, I make any changes for the rest of that week that have occurred that day in that planner. Gotcha, okay, so that it's accurate, so that when we're viewing it the next morning I'm up to date. Cool, okay.
Charles:Now I understand your method. Yeah, now you can sleep at night. That's not a great thing. For that, I had a couple of NyQuil. Huh, that reminds me I got to order some NyQuil to take to Europe with me.
Dan:Have you compared the pills to the liquids? Any chance with a NyQuil.
Charles:No, you know how my little kid palate is.
Dan:I can't drink that NyQuil For whatever reason. The liquid seems to work better for me than the caplets Caplets but I think maybe because the caplets might be lesser dose. They say it's not, but anyway. If you're doing two caplets or a whole bottle, then the whole bottle oh no wonder a whole bottle than the oh, no wonder the whole bottle. Okay, let's talk about the shot glass?
Charles:no, I can't remember. I I must have had the nyquil liquid once to decide that I would never drink it again. As no, the, the pills do the job for me very well, okay do you normally just take.
Dan:Take the two okay yeah and yeah.
Charles:They help me to go to bed completely, not congested, regardless of what the allergy situation is or if I'm fighting a cold or whatever. They dry everything out and they put me to sleep. You know, sleeping in hostels with four, six or eight beds, I'm going to do everything I can to drown out whatever's going on around me. So it's going to be NyQuil, eye cover, earplugs, everything I can do. Good, get as much quality sleep as I can in a public place with other people around me, because I've got packed days and I want to have good rest for those days. A lot of early nights and early mornings.
Dan:We all know how important sleep is. Recently I've been listening to a couple more people who are much more educated than we are about the latest science that's coming out and it turns out so we're always thinking the three foundational pillars diet, exercise and sleep. What they're saying is sleep is way more important than any of them and, if you think about it, one bad night of sleep significantly impacts everything that you're doing that day. It impacts your hormones, so you get hungrier, you eat out of control, sometimes you operate as if you're trunk driving I'm sure you've had that right Whereas you have one bad meal, you might get a little congested, might get a little here or something like that, but it's not going to really significantly impact your day. Same thing you miss one workout or a couple of workouts Not nearly as bad as having a bad night of sleep.
Dan:Right, it just helped me refocus my efforts on getting that sleep and pairing for the sleep that day right from the time you get up, which, as Huberman talks about, is not having caffeine for that first hour to 90 minutes of waking up, so that you clear those receptors so you can properly get to sleep at night. I've been doing that and I've been working out without caffeine and it's not that bad, really Waking up and not having. Yeah, I've been trying the decaf coffee and sometimes I'm just like I don't even want this, I don't want the decaf in the morning. I'll make the full cup, leave it in my car so as soon as I'm done with the gym it's been that an hour or 90 minutes I can hit that caffeine.
Charles:The good, the good thing is with travel mug technology as it's improved, I I can. I could get three or four hours easily out of a cup of coffee, and it's still hot enough for me to enjoy Cause once. Once coffee cools down, cools down, I will not drink it. And I'm not talking about cold, I'm talking about even warm coffee, if it's cold enough that I can drink it without having to drink it slowly. I don't want it anymore. I want coffee that's so hot I have to drink with care. If it's not that hot anymore, I'm pouring it down the drain and start over.
Charles:So do you do iced coffees at all? Yeah, rarely. Generally, when I want a cold drink, I would rather have a lemonade or a soda, yeah, so just iced coffee just doesn't rank as high for me on the list of cold drinks. I don't dislike it, but when I used to do it, it was iced caramel macchiatos and it was the good stuff that had a lot of basically milkshakes, right, and yeah, and it was the good stuff that had a lot of basically milkshakes, Right, and yeah, the. To do just an iced black coffee, I can't do at all. Yeah, I have to at least have them put a splash of cream in there just to lighten it up a little bit.
Dan:Yeah, I'm the same way. Sometimes I'll put some artificial sweetener in there to work, or some sugar to just to have it. Yeah, yeah, I don't know when it's hot, though black is not a problem.
Charles:Yeah, it's hot, so you're going up to New Jersey tomorrow morning. Right, I am. What time's your flight?
Dan:Seven, so I'm leaving here 4.15. Uber's got a nice little feature now. Oh yeah, where, if you are going to the airport and you schedule the ride in advance, it will tell you what time you should arrange the pickup for. Oh record, nice. So. And so they calculate how far you are from the airport, what time your flight is, and they say, if you want to be there two hours in advance, you need to arrange for 415, for example. Right, because I'm 45 minutes away from the airport. Perfect, that's what I was going to do anyway, based on my previous experience, but it was all done in the app. It was a very nice, seamless experience.
Charles:Okay, I need to check that out because I'm trying to decide what to do for my trip to Europe when you start getting into that 10 day range. Okay, do I want to park at the airport or do I want to leave my car here at your place and then either ask you to give me a ride one or both directions and then Uber, or even just Uber both directions here. What was it running to Uber from here to there?
Dan:Usually it's about, with a moderate tip, it's about $50 to $55 each way On the way there. On the way home it's sometimes a little bit more, depending on how busy it is.
Charles:But it still is probably going to be cheaper for me to than parking, especially if I wanted covered parking, oh yeah.
Dan:Yeah, I'll have to and you get dropped off right at the. That's true, it's a bus and all that stuff, and yeah, and yeah. I like chilling out before my flight and just no, really trying to get in that vacation mindset as soon as possible, and part of that is feeling special by someone driving me around.
Charles:Yeah, I could see that I fly out. My flight leaves at 855 on a friday night. I'm thinking I need to get to the airport in the six o'clock range for international flight. Yeah, and yeah, there could be some traffic issues. Uh, oh yeah, and also had a great haircut, eleanor's down in the mills 50 area the other day, and I want to squeeze one more haircut and a beard trim in the day of my trip, so the day I get on the plane. So I got that scheduled and I don't know, maybe I'll see what deals are available for parking, cause there's a lot of cool sites out there where you just put in the airport you want to go to and it'll give you some comparative parking rates. But yeah, with my car, with it being a rag top, an old rag top I I do try to minimize the amount of time that it spends out in the sun slash rain yeah and yeah, I'm either.
Charles:I was thinking either parking it here at your place and throwing my car cover over the top of it, or parking it at the airport but getting it in a garage somewhere, and so I gotta just figure out which of those feels. Yeah, that's the sheriff, core help. Okay, let let's talk about five love languages for men. This was a good chapter. We're going to do number 10, the Art of Apologizing.
Dan:I'm sorry, did you just say this was a good chapter?
Charles:Who are you? This was a mostly good chapter. Oh well, I'll get to the parts that I don't.
Dan:Oh, okay, all right.
Charles:So, when it comes to apologizing, this wouldn't be the only resource I'd recommend. Even higher than this, I would recommend listen to Brene Brown's podcast unlocking us. Okay, she does a two part episode with Dr Harriet Lerner, who wrote a book called why won't you apologize, and two episodes are, I'm sorry, how to apologize and why it matters Part one and two. Okay, I would say that material is even better than this chapter on figuring out how you should go about it and what a good apology and effective apology sounds like versus what it doesn't sound like what I'm hearing is you're saying they are both pro-apology?
Charles:Yes, they are both in favor of apologizing. And, yeah, one of the things I think we've said is that or at least I've said before, and it really should catch on. I think it's really profound. The man who apologizes for everything and the man who apologizes for nothing share the same weakness. For everything and the man who apologizes for nothing share the same weakness. Because if you adopt some rigid thing of it's always all my fault or it's never my fault, either way you're wrong and your relationships are going to suffer as a result. So, figuring out okay, what do I apologize for, when do I apologize it's an important skill and your relationships personally and professionally will benefit from that, because if you just get rigid with, either I'll always be the guy who's sorry for what happened or what I did, or I'll never be that guy.
Dan:Then I think it's definitely easier to be one of those extremes. You don't have to think about it. Yeah, the binaries are always easier than the rays.
Charles:Well, rays require skills, but what you just said right, it's a skill set no-transcript to benefit from it, because there's a lot of people who, just you know, either their ego, their trauma, their whatever stops them from offering apologies, offering apologies that can be heard and accepted by a person they spend a whole lot of time around and have, conceivably they have similar goals, similar values, but you just can't get yourself to the point where you are able to repair from something that happens that puts a block or disruption into the relationship.
Charles:So let's talk about it. Done well. An apology can bring closure to tensions, conflicts and hurt feelings. It can also change the way your wife thinks of you or your partner. What most people and he makes a pretty good case here that what most people look for in apology is sincerity, and how sincere you seem is going to be directly related to how closely your apology matches to whatever their apology language is. And coincidentally, he has a book on the five apology languages that you could buy and read and put more money in his pocket but, like you said, it's good information.
Dan:Yeah, I've got no problem with him earning some dollars from this information yeah, um, so you and I did take.
Charles:There are five apology languages. Boy, that's convenient. Yeah, really fits into the land. Huh, wow, what a coincidence. The five apology languages are expressing regret, accepting responsibility, making restitution, genuine repentance and requesting forgiveness. And yeah, we both took the test. Mine is accepting responsibility, that's my number one, and yours was what?
Dan:So the quiz calls it plan to change, but I think that's the repentance one that you just mentioned. Actually.
Charles:I think you're probably right. Yeah, genuine repentance was number four. Yes, and I had some points about that. I think you're probably right. Yeah, genuine repentance was number four. Yes, and I had some points about that.
Charles:I think, you'll find interesting and probably even agree with. Okay, so let's talk about the first one, expressing regret. So when you say that you regret something and in all of these you've got to be specific the specifics are what count, even to the point where I learned in one of my relationships I had a partner that was willing to express to me the difference between saying I'm sorry and just saying sorry. That's something that would not have occurred to me to be a difference, but for her it was a pretty big deal.
Dan:Thinking about it, it is for me as well. Yeah, yeah, I can Definitely.
Charles:She laid out the case pretty well. Okay, I can't really argue with that, that the I and the am sorry, the just sorry, that's just for you.
Dan:That's that for me, when I don't hear that I am. You don't really have your. Yeah, you are not owning exactly, exactly it's.
Charles:Yes, sorry that you're sorry that.
Dan:It's like a band-aid, it's like literally handing a physical bandaid. Oh, here you go.
Charles:The sorry or sorry. Some of that blue ice fell on your car. It's just like, oh, you know this thing happened and that's too bad. But yeah, the arm or the I am definitely makes it more of a. I have some responsibility in this too, and even if you say sorry that I I did, blah, blah, blah, it's still I am sorry that I did.
Dan:Just throwing that word. I in adds that sincerity that you mentioned before.
Dan:Yes, I think so too, and yeah, that was not something that would have occurred to me to ask for, but I get why that does matter and I get why people don't want to do it because you feel vulnerable, exactly, yeah, it does. That's why, yep, why that does matter. And I get why people don't want to do it because you feel vulnerable, exactly, yeah, that's good to Brene Brown, ironically doing the whole, because that's probably you feel really vulnerable whenever you're apologizing, yeah, and possibly shame, it's not just saying I recognize that you feel bad.
Charles:It's also saying I feel bad because I played a role in you feeling bad and the people who have that apology language language, that's what they want to hear. They want to hear I feel bad, that I contributed to you feeling bad and I take responsibility for you feeling bad. Yeah, obviously not all of it, because you can't make people experience certain emotions, but you can own the fact that, yes, the actions that I took directly led to the state that you're now in. So he's got some pretty good examples of good and bad apologies little cartoons in this book that I like and I want to share those. So first we'll do the two bad apologies.
Charles:When it comes to expressing regret, I'm sorry, I offended your parents, but it's not like you show them a lot of respect. Some of these are intentionally funny and some of them are unintentionally funny. I'm, I offended your parents, but it's not like you show them a lot of respect. And then, I'm sorry, I used that language with you, but I never claimed to be a choir boy, and the two things that both of those guys have in common is the word but, I'm sorry, but and that's really. If you're fancy, you might say however, but what I've learned is that whenever you throw a but or however into an apology, what came before it loses all meaning and all impact. Yeah, all that they're going to hear is what comes after the but.
Dan:That's the case no matter what kind of statement you're making. Yes, so I think probably affirmations and stuff, right?
Charles:When it's anything emotional, that's the case. If you're making a very logical, dispassionate argument for something that you're not emotionally invested in and the other person is not emotionally invested in, you can say blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. However, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah People can hear that, but when it's anything with an emotional impact on it, then yeah, it's going to be whatever you say after the butt is all I'm going to focus on and I'm going to ignore everything that came before it.
Dan:Yeah, it's a good point of distinction whether it's emotional or interesting.
Charles:Yeah, okay. So here are the two good versions that express regret. I know that I hurt you. I feel like a jerk for causing you pain. I'm truly sorry for what I did, and the last thing I want to do is disappoint you. I should have been more thoughtful. I'm sorry for making you feel that way. Now, renata and I would both have a small issue with that one. I'm sorry for making you feel that way. It would again I, and there's a lot of people on mental health Instagram that have addressed this too, where, while, yes, it's true, you can't make people feel certain ways, you can still own that your behavior and your action have contributed or triggered, or whatever word you want it. Yeah, it didn't happen spontaneously. They didn't just randomly decide to feel a certain way. Like you, you had an impact on that. You're not in their brain, making them choose option emotion a versus emotion b, but you're certainly contributing to what they're feeling okay, I'm having a hard time figuring out, then, how to phrase that without saying I made you feel this way.
Dan:I totally understand what you're saying.
Charles:Yeah, let's see last thing I want to do is disappoint you. I should have been more thoughtful. I'm sorry my actions upset you. Okay, something like that. Okay, yeah, just again. It's it's mostly just for me hearing renata hammer it in therapy for years and years that you can't make people feel things. You can't make people do things yeah, I can see what do things, but you can't make them feel right.
Dan:Yeah, I can't. Yeah, I can see why. Because I think it's really important. If you're going through anything that you're trying to heal from, is what you talk about is taking responsibility, yeah. And if you're going through anything that you're trying to heal from, is what you talk about is taking responsibility, yeah. And if you're accepting the fact that you can make people feel things, you also then accept responsibility. That people can make you feel things.
Dan:That's a good point and then you're going to be like eh, not my fault, I'm not going to do anything about this. This person's been rapping all over me and I'm powerless, right, I think it gives you, it keeps you.
Charles:That gives you that power yeah, you either believe in a world where other people can make other people feel things or you don't. And if you yeah, if you believe in that, you have to take it where both people can make me feel things. I can make other people, so I can see why she wants to die on that sword. Absolutely, I get that. It's important, okay. So he does say an apology should be specific. I'm sorry, for this is a good.
Charles:One of the reasons he says it should be specific is you should say exactly what you're apologizing for, because and I've experienced this very often the response will be that's not why I'm mad. You apologize for a yeah, and by saying it specifically, they can say okay, but that's not exactly what bothered me about what you said or did. What bothered me was this other thing instead, and then you can apologize for that thing or generally don't have a knee-jerk apology oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for that too. It's okay. Tell me more about that so I can understand Exactly. Once you get the more information, then you're ready to make a decision to apologize Again.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, it comes down to validating and being clear with the communication. So really trying to understand, and ideally you ask beforehand hey, can we talk about right now what I did or why you're upset, so I can better understand yeah, and as he says again and we've already covered under no circumstances do you throw butts in your apology.
Charles:I'm sorry for, but and I think we'll probably get to this too in another apology language. But the other thing I would say to avoid is I'm sorry you were offended or sorry. Don't apologize for someone's reaction to your behavior because I'm sorry you felt that way exactly. Do behavior because I'm sorry you felt that way Exactly. Do not say I'm sorry, you felt that way. Um, you do that. Yeah, you're saying I'm sorry for something you did. I'm sorry you reacted that way. I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sorry, sorry, you're weak. Yeah, pretty much it's yeah, and that will only make things worse. That will not make things better. If you don't have something concrete that you can identify that you're sorry, that you said or that you did, then you're not ready to apologize and you need to either think about it more individually or ask more questions and I think the other thing that I think the other thing to think about is, if you get this wrong, you're causing more damage than certainly what already happened.
Charles:So it's gotta be careful. Yeah, that's why it's a good idea to go as slow as you need to go, to not feel defensive, and it can be tough because a lot of times after the whatever the original offense was that started things off the way that both of the people in the situation react to it there's often things to apologize for as well in the argument that happened of the people in the situation react to it. There's often things to apologize for as well in the argument that happened after the original thing. Yeah, and it can get easy to get into a tit for tat of I did these three things wrong and I'll apologize for them, but you got to apologize for that you did wrong too. That's a. And then that, yeah, that could spiral right. Eventually, yeah, nothing good ends up happening. Okay.
Charles:So number two accepting responsibility. So this is mine, because generally what you want to hear with accepting responsibility is I was wrong. That will communicate to the other person that the apology is sincere. Challenges that that I run into in receiving apologies is there's these two aspects to an apology, or really there's? Yeah, your actions consist of the intent and the impact that they have on other people. So there's what did you intend to do and what was the impact that was felt by the other person, and, as someone who is not a good apologizer doesn't like apologizing one of the easy excuses for me to go to is yeah, but I didn't mean to do blah, blah, blah. It wasn't my intention that you would feel blah, blah, blah and we'll get to that in one of the other languages.
Charles:When you say or do something that offends your partner, yeah, but I didn't mean it that way. So therefore, I have nothing to apologize over. That's similar to sorry, you're weak, it is. It's kind of saying you're upset over nothing right now and so why would I apologize? Or you can't handle things the way I do? Yeah, you have no reason. You have no logical reason to feel this way, so why would I apologize to you? You have no logical reason to feel this way, so why would I apologize to you? Okay, spock, look, I think we do that sometimes. I comprehend this. I certainly have done it when it's like you minimize the impact of your action because you didn't have negative intentions.
Dan:Yeah, I'm laughing, but I've done that so many times as a younger person.
Charles:Yeah, and the thing that triggers me about apologies sometimes is when the apology only focuses on the impact and does not address the intention at all, like I've heard apologies along the lines of I'm sorry for what I did because it hurt you, and that does sound good on the surface, but where my mind goes is okay, so you're only sorry about it because it hurt me. So therefore you don't think you did anything wrong. You don't think right, you don't think you did something quote unquote wrong. It's got me thinking like okay, if you're sorry for what you did because it hurt my feelings and my feelings getting hurt is the only reason that you're sorry I have no way to predict what you might do in the future. Yeah, then you might try to avoid hurting my feelings, but I would I want to rely on your set of values and your moral code to predict how you will or will not hurt me in the future yeah, and you just clarified that other person just clarified that their values and moral code is not the same as yours.
Dan:Correct, exactly. So now you're communicating, but not in, not in a good way or not something that's going to benefit the relationship.
Charles:It's not going to make me, it's not going to get me to feel more secure about the future. Yeah, when I think that this thing you did was objectively wrong, you think it was a negative action because it hurt my feelings, yeah, which, look, it's better than nothing, but it's still. We're not enough on the same page for me to feel secure that a future like this. Okay, so we resolve. When you do this exact thing, I feel negative feelings and that and we both agree that's bad and that should be avoided. But it doesn't seem to translate to other things you could do or say that would also hurt me.
Dan:Now you've just violated some trust in the relationship as well, because now you're worried that they're going to do something that you might question as morally or wrong based on your own beliefs For me. That's why I've been there.
Charles:The accepting responsibility, the hearing what I did, was like I believe what I did was wrong and here's why I think it was wrong and here's why I won't do it again. I've got to hear those things, otherwise I can't look forward to the future with security and expect that it's not something close to that's not going to happen again. And that puts a lot of pressure on your. When you have a partner with accepting responsibility as their apology language, it does put pressure on the other person. They have to jump through some hoops that they may not feel like jumping through to offer that reassurance to say, yes, what I did was wrong according to my own values and I won't do it again, or I'll put systems in place to not let it happen again. Yeah, is where we'll get to on the um repentance side, okay.
Charles:So here's a couple more sample apologies that speak to accepting responsibility, a couple that do not speak to at first. Mistakes were made, let's just leave it at that. That's my. That might be my favorite. I was about to say I love that one. Mistakes were made, let's just leave it at that messing by lou.
Dan:Yeah, they just existed yes.
Charles:And then the second one we also we've already talked about I'm sorry you're upset, but it's not like I haven't done that before. That's just who I am. Even if you stopped it, I'm sorry you're upset, that's still a bad apology, because you're apologizing for someone's reaction to your action, not for what you did. But it's not like I haven't done it before. That's just who I am. It's that goes a lot it's like.
Dan:It's like your fault for not paying attention right to what kind of person I am exactly, and we talked before about the excuse of I did my best.
Charles:It's like the kind of things that make someone wash their hands and walk away from you. Are sorry, I did my best, or it's not like I haven't done that before. That's just who I am like. Okay, then, I guess we have nothing to work on here. So time to go exit stage left, okay. So here's the good ones. The way I spoke to you was wrong. I was trying to justify myself and what I said was unkind and unloving. I hope you will forgive me. And the second one is I could try to excuse myself, but there is no excuse pure and simple. What I did was selfish and wrong. Both of those have the word wrong in. There is also the as as somebody with this apology language. Yeah, that's what I want to hear.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Yeah, so, yeah, I really identified and that is in fact my apology language. Yeah, so the I'm sorry plus the I was wrong seemed to be what people with this language need to hear. Apology number. Language number three making restitution. This is where you feel like not only do I need to say I'm sorry, this is where you feel like not only do I need to say I'm sorry, not only do I need to take some responsibility, but I also need to try to make it up to the person he uses the language when a wrong has been committed, it should be paid for.
Charles:I don't know Because that? Because, yeah, and some of his thoughts about punishment and condemnation in this chapter a little off to me. They're certainly very supported by the sacred text of his chosen religion, but I don't know that they're really supported by a more modern look at ethics or psychology. But we'll get into that. But after being hurt deeply, we need reassurance that the person that hurt us still loves us, and if this is their apology language, then that reassurance is going to be how can I make this up to you? Or I would even say better than how can I make this up to you. Hey, I think it would help me make it up to you if I did blah, blah, blah and then let them react to. Don't give them an apology and then ask them to do some homework.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:It's give them the apology and then give them a suggestion on what you think would help to make it right, and then let them say, yes, that would be great, or but I really would need this, or let you you'd be the one to take on the effort of starting the conversation of what can make this right.
Dan:Yeah, now, does he suggest that? I don't think he does, though. No, that's me. Yeah, and I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, that's, but I think that is. I think that's important, like you said, to not make them do work.
Charles:Just yeah, that's the same way as when someone has suffered a loss and they're grieving, don't go to them with what can I do to help it's. Go to them with an idea of what you'd like to do, what you can do to help them, and then let them say yes, say no or modify it. Don't stack on the homework of I know you're, you know, grieving the loss of your fill in the blank. But now I need you to do some research and figure out what's the easiest way that I can help you with this.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think just making that offer of whatever it is, even if they don't want it, it doesn't fit, I feel is a nice gesture and I think it helps build that relationship.
Charles:Yeah, hey, can I bring you dinner tomorrow night? Or, if not tomorrow night, some other night, or is there something else? Just throw an idea out there that they can say yes to or say no to or this, but this that definitely helps, all right. So here's some bad examples for people who, who making it, making restitution, works for do not say why can't you let it go. I bought you flowers, isn't that enough? And if you haven't already picked this up from us, yeah, generally buying flowers for someone as a way of apology is not the move. I mean, it can work along with the strategies in this chapter, but don't think I'm going to buy you something to make up for this bad thing that I did.
Charles:Um, second one if saying sorry isn't good enough for you I don't know what to tell you because I'm dark. Yeah, exactly, there's no other option. I took I made my one shot and it didn't work is the only way. So here's what does so demanding? I don't feel right just saying I'm sorry. I want to make it up, I want to make up for what I've done. What would you consider appropriate? Good, again, I will always say start with an offer of something. Yeah, would it work if I offered to do blah blah blah. I know I've wasted your time. May I give you some of my time to balance things out? That's a good one.
Dan:And so I think what I just realized when you read the first one there, the positive one, that wasn't quite that great. I feel like if you are suggesting something, it's showing the other person. You've got a deeper understanding of what happened as well.
Charles:Even if you're wrong, even if the thing you suggest isn't the right thing, you can still. I want to make it up. Yeah, like would this, for example? True, start us down the path. Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, it's better way, because it's an effort, you're showing an effort and because, yeah, even just thinking and trying to come up with a solution is an effort that a lot of us will not volunteer unless, yeah, feel pushed. Yeah, it's essential to express that restitution in their primary love languages as well, which is very important. When you're trying to make up to someone, try to make up for them in a way that you think there's a good chance they'll respond to. If her love language, like this guy, is quality time, then say, hey, how can I make it up to you by putting aside some time to spend with you.
Dan:That's fair. You want to make the other person feel loved as easily as possible.
Charles:Yeah, so, and that's what this whole book is about you make people feel loved as easily as possible by speaking to them in their love language, and so I would say that a making things right needs to almost be sprinkled in every kind of, in every apology, regardless of what somebody's apology language is, like this idea of hey, I want to do something to make this better than it currently sits.
Charles:So I definitely recommend that language for genuine repentance. What did they call it? On the planned change planned change, okay. So this is an interesting one. To me, repentance is a biblical concept of changing direction, changing your mind. I thought this was right. Now I think the opposite is right instead, and I can appreciate how valuable that is, because there are a lot of behaviors in life that you're not going to change until you have some sort of a spiritual realignment that says all right, I used to think this was good, I used to think this was okay, and now something's happened where I think this other thing is okay instead, and so when someone expresses that to you, I think you've got a good chance of believing that their future behavior will be different. But again, it's not enough to just say it Sorry, I was wrong. How can I make that up to you? To repent is to say I'll try not to do this again. But even that falls a little short for me Me too, because I'll try not to do this again.
Dan:That's an out I feel like you have. I've had people say that to me, yeah and my. I understand nobody's perfect, but if you are starting with the word try, no matter what, to me that's I'm's. I don't really care enough to commit to this to change in the immediate aftermath.
Charles:In the immediate aftermath of an argument that just happened because of something you did wrong. That doesn't guarantee future results, because, yeah, you could absolutely need it right then when you say it, but it's are you going to meet it in 80 of moments for the?
Dan:rest of your life, and that's why this is my primary, and the secondary is the restitution one, because that's like the one time. It's not a full change, it's I'm going to make it up to you and you do it that one time and for me, okay, like that's fine, it's the beginning of change. But if you continue to do those things that you need to apologize for and then you think you can just make up for it in that moment or right afterwards that you're wasting my time, like I don't want to, I don't need a relationship with you, whether that's a friendship or a romantic relationship, whatever that is is if there's mistakes being made, there needs to be change. Otherwise we need to find different people?
Charles:Yeah, absolutely so. Here's what if somebody's apology language is genuine repentance. Here's the way. Here's some of the ways they would describe an apology, an ideal apology. Show that you're willing to change and do things differently next time.
Charles:I expect him to find ways to keep it from happening again. I expect a change of behavior so that the insult doesn't recur. I want him to have a plan for improvement, a plan to succeed and not fail again. I expect him not to go into a rage a few minutes later or do the same thing again. Yeah, this is all saying okay. And really that's the part that I think is the most important when it comes to genuine repentance of not only am I willing to say I was wrong, not only will am I willing to say I was sorry, not only am I willing to offer some sort of restitution for what I did, but now I'm going to do the homework of developing systems, developing an environment and developing habits that stop this from happening again, which is probably harder for most of us than all the other parts of the apology combined.
Dan:Yeah, I see how important that is, because, if you, basically, I feel like these types of situations don't happen at the beginning of relationships, a lot of times, right, a lot of times we're also not really paying attention because all our hormones are going crazy.
Dan:We have that limerence that we're going through for a while, but after a while, when that starts to wear off and people start, they start to make mistakes and things, that's where you can see who they are as a person, based on their reaction to the differences that are coming to light between the way you two operate, right, and so if you're going to continue on with a relationship, I believe in my view, and there's a significant difference in terms of your values and what you're doing and what you're apologizing for, the change needs to happen.
Dan:Otherwise, you need to go to with a different partner at that point, like I talked about before, and so I think for me, this is the most important thing in order to preserve the relationship moving forward and I didn't pay enough attention to this specifically in previous relationships and I let it slide way too much, yeah and to that comfort zone where a lot of us have been in relationships where, oh, my god, I should have broken up with that person a year ago, two years ago or whenever, hindsight's 2020, like the writing's on the wall. For me, this is one of those things where the mistakes were made on both our sides, but it was repeated and I just let it go too many times.
Charles:And that's the thing when you're in a relationship. You're going to ask yourself often okay, I'm not hearing what I would like to hear, I'm not hearing what I would like to hear, I'm not seeing what I would like to see, but do I really want to die on this hill?
Dan:and and then, yeah, this is good, sex is good, or she's a great cook and makes my life easier and it's gonna be so much harder to find somebody else, and yeah, there's all these ways that lock yourself out of the sunken cost fallacy.
Charles:I've already invested so much time and effort into this person. What am I going to do? Start over with somebody else? Yeah, those things do happen. Let's read the crappy apologies for genuine repentance. I'm sorry, I know I've said that before, but this time I'm serious.
Dan:That one hits home.
Charles:Yeah, and oh, this next one, man, I am sorry, but if things I do keep offending you, maybe you're the one who needs to change. Do you ever think about that? Oh yeah, I have said something almost word for word like that oh yeah, god, dude, yes, and I I feel embarrassed to say that, but I I have offered quote-unquote apologies very similar to that before. And wow, yeah, and it has, you know, had the result that you would imagine it would have. It was, it was awful, she was swooning. No, no.
Dan:And that's basically saying you're a broken, bad person and you're weak.
Charles:Yeah, that's oh boy. Yeah, look if you're uncomfortable enough taking responsibility for what you've done wrong. Yeah, you will try to shift that blame onto whatever's in the room, and it's usually your partner.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Yeah, oh yeah, I've done that. I've done that before.
Dan:Let's be honest. Nobody likes to feel like they've done something, of course not?
Charles:Yeah, that certainly doesn't excuse this. It's how you manage that uncomfortable. You actually have something to apologize to me for, which is what you're essentially saying in the moment.
Dan:You just made me feel bad. Yeah, I've got bad feelings. You're making me feel like I did something wrong.
Charles:So yeah on you, bro. Oh yeah, that is. That is definitely the hallmark of someone with some of those, uh, narcissistic traits. Okay, okay, yeah, what I did was wrong, but you calling me on it made me feel pretty bad, so let's get into that. I know it's all course, let's get in. What kind?
Dan:of bad person you are yeah, all right.
Charles:So here's what it sounds like when it's done right. I let you down by making the same mistake again. What would it take for you to begin to rebuild your trust in me? I know that my behavior was very painful to you. I I don't ever want to do that again. I'm open to any ideas you might have on how I can change my behavior. And yeah, man, these ain't a lot more. This is really opening up the armor and say take your shot because you're putting someone else in the driver's seat to say, all right, you tell me what behavior you expect for me to prove that I'm an okay person.
Dan:Yeah, as I'm thinking about this, I feel like, in order for you to be willing to do all of that, it'd be weird for you to do something so bad that you would need. I feel like if you've got that level of commitment and dedication and comfortable being vulnerable, would you have ever done anything that actually requires you to do those things? I feel like that's going to be a rare circumstance.
Charles:Which is a great argument to say. If you become the person that can offer these kinds of apologies, that also turns you into the kind of person that will more rarely need to offer these kinds of apologies. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, you can't just snap your fingers and become a person who doesn't do hurtful things to your partner, but what is much, much easier is become the kind of person that's comfortable offering these apologies. By practicing them and by becoming that kind of person, you will find yourself in the situation where you need to apologize less and less often.
Dan:And what I'm seeing, too, is in terms of the amount of work. But for me personally, the amount of effectiveness comes into how many human senses you engage in in each of these languages. For example, even though my love languages, is words of affirmation, I need to hear. That's the next one. I need to hear more than just a'm sorry for whatever, right, like I need, like for me. I need to also feel like you're doing other things. So that means so, not just, I'm not just hearing it, I'm able to see it, because you're doing something differently. Maybe I'm feeling it tactilely or emotionally. I guess it's the sixth feeling, right, I think the more the more all senses.
Charles:Oh, you're sorry, cook me a good meal. Okay, bake me some cookies well it tastes.
Dan:It would hurt, I'm just saying. I'm just saying that would definitely grease the wheels a little more any of these.
Charles:I never have had someone say I'm so sorry, I made you your favorite right.
Dan:So here's the thing you could add that to any of these languages, and now you've upped it right, yeah, 100.
Charles:So oh, yeah I. The one thing I will say, though, is when it comes to showing genuine repentance. Fortunately, we live in a culture where, in the last decade maybe two decades, but certainly in the last decade we've talked a lot more about how to make habits and how to drop bad habits make good habits and drop bad habits. So, when there are things like tiny habits, atomic habits, there's stuff out there where so few of us just innately have inside of us the knowledge that it takes to make a good habit.
Charles:There are lots of resources, books, coaches, all sorts of things where it's like hey, look, I keep bothering my partner by doing this thing over and over again or by not doing this other thing enough as much as she'd like me to. How do I set it up so that I don't have to feel like I'm constantly apologizing for the same thing over and over again? Pick up a book that talks to you about how to make good habits and how to break bad habits or replace bad habits, and you can develop that skill of hey, it's important because, like we learned in our series on tiny habits, if you're just relying on, how much motivation did I wake up with this morning. That ain't going to cut it, man. It's not going to get the job done.
Dan:And something that is a little easier pill to swallow. I know a lot of us feel like I don't want to be vulnerable by admitting I don't know how to do something as simple as creating habits. It seems really simple. Well, you know what? Understand that it's not your fault. Like you, didn't go to school learning habits, learning communication and relationships. Most of us didn't know unless, like you, went to college and were becoming a psychologist, we learned how to square dance, yeah, yeah. So it's like.
Dan:So forgive yourself and realize you weren't given those skills. Most people weren't given those skills unless you had an amazing you know parent or model. Right, yeah, exactly. Or you went to get an advanced degree in college, study this stuff, pick up that book and learn like the latest research, because it's going to be more than worth your time. Or get with a coach because they'll teach you the easiest way to do it and you're going to be less frustrated when you go and try and change. Well, look, what do you want from me? This is just who I am Like. You could get to that point if you don't know the easiest way to create those changes, because you're just frustrated, because you just don't know. You never learned it.
Charles:And I would even argue, man, one of the worst things that could impact your relationship is if your partner sees you struggling to not do the same things that insult her over and over. Like she sees you struggling and you're still not successful at it, then that's going to give her a sense of hopelessness. That says, okay, look, I mean, he said he's sorry. I see him trying not to do it, but he can't help himself.
Dan:So where do we go from here? And he's not making any efforts. No, try different things, right Either yes, he's just struggling and staying in a run.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:And not trying other things. What is your potential for?
Charles:change Right. If your partner sees you struggling, doubling down on methods to fix these problems that are not working, it's going to be like, okay, so I can't really expect to see progress in this area.
Dan:The way you just said. That kind of hit me like a ton of bricks, because I'm looking back at all the relationships that didn't work out for me and that was really the key was I saw them have these struggles with things. I didn't run away immediately, but they couldn't figure out how to overcome and a lot of times they didn't make effort that's the thing or the efforts they did make were minimal and felt like they gave up too easily on things or never made the effort to begin with, and because of that, I think a lot of things. I started to distance myself a little bit, going okay, this is not the person that I thought she was and I don't see a lot of hope that she's going to become or even move in that direction at this point.
Charles:No, I've been there too.
Dan:I wish I was able to communicate that or take action when it hit me. Hitting me now doesn't really matter, I mean mean it helps moving forward yeah, translate it into your current relationship or your future relationships.
Charles:Being in a relationship where you and your partner acknowledge that there are problems, that there are challenges, there are issues, and one or both of you are not really willing to try new things to solve the problem, it's okay then if all reading books and listening to podcasts does not count for trying new things. By the way, people yeah even our podcast, even our podcast. Yeah, listening to a new podcast, it's still just podcast listening. Yeah, and, and I'm absolutely.
Dan:Oh, so many dreams and ambitions of doing things that I get from podcasts and books that I don't ever do.
Charles:I found a new podcast or a new book that's going to solve all my problems, and then it never solves the problem.
Dan:Ice baths have not done. That Sounds like a great idea.
Charles:Yeah, I think, when it comes to relationship issues and I've said this before, probably on the show, but if not, I've certainly said it in conversation the issues that we have from relationships stem from the relationships of our past, whether that's our relationships with our parents, could be our siblings, could be our previous romantic partners.
Dan:That's our fingerprint.
Charles:Yes, and so you and I do not have the challenges we have with relationships because we read the wrong relationship book and it gave us bad advice. Good point.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:We have the problems we have with relationships today because of the relationships we've had before. Yeah, and since, our problems don't come from the wrong book or the wrong podcast. They're not going to be solved by the right book or the right podcast. They're going to be solved by other relationships with other people, whether that's a support group, whether that's therapy, whether that's making friends group, whether that's therapy, whether that's making friends with new kinds of people who have healthy patterns and behaviors that we haven't seen modeled before. Yeah, it's yeah, you can't. You can't fix a relationship-based problem with a informational solution. Relationships fix relationships.
Dan:I think part of the problem with what that I experience is I feel really good listening to podcasts and listening to getting new ideas. That hits that dopamine rush. Oh, I never thought about it that way. Getting excited when it comes time to actually doing the work. That's uncomfortable, oh. So that good feeling goes away. So it's very easy to just not do anything other than listen to podcasts and read books about stuff and hear these wonderful ideas and literally get high off of these ideas and not actually put the work in and implement them, because that takes thought and energy and work and we don't want to do that. Our brains are wired to not do that and not do your invulnerability.
Charles:That too, when I think about my therapy sessions, when I think about my recovery group, they're net positives. But listening to a new audiobook is 100% positive. There's almost no downside. I don't have a profoundly deep sense of guilt, shame or really any negative emotional experience listening to a new book or a new podcast.
Dan:And the other thing about this is it's completely anonymous. Yes, exactly, you're listening to something for, like, giving up alcohol, or something that would be a little bit like if everybody on the world knew Charles was listening to a book on quitting alcohol.
Charles:be like what's going on exactly I didn't know you had a problem. We'll change it a little bit. Looks at those questions. Absolutely, we're doing it out in the open in front of another human. Oh yeah, it's a lot anonymous, yeah, which is why it's more valuable. Yeah, that's why it's more effective. Because it's harder. Yeah, it's. Yeah, doing doing air squats isn't bad for you, but you're, you're not going to become a competitive lifter in the squat by just doing air squats. It just doesn't work that way. Right, let's? Let's talk about the last one. This was also my bottom. Now, I wasn't a zero, you were zero, zero. On requesting forgiveness, talk is cheap. I was like at eight, like having someone come to me and say will you forgive me for this? It just compared to the other four, it does almost nothing for me, for you, it does nothing for you For me you almost make it worse.
Dan:Oh, it's because you're asking something of me and you're not offering anything. That's a good point, other than words, you're not saying I'm sorry for blah, blah, blah. That would be better. I think it was like 12. If you're just like yeah, will you forgive me for this.
Charles:I think I'm on that. Why should I? I'm on that page with you because if somebody gives me the, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Let me make it up to you. Here's how I'm not going to do it again. You give me those four, whether or not you tack on the, will you please forgive me? It it really doesn't. It doesn't move the needle for me If you do the first four, it's whether you put that out at the end or not. It would make things worse if you said, will you forgive me? But it's not going to make things better either, it's just eh, for me it makes it worse, even if they've done the other four. No, yeah, I'm saying a scenario where they've said the other four and then they decide to tack off. Okay, you forgive me at the end At the end.
Dan:Okay, I was saying before you do any of those things, if that comes also with a, will you forgive me. Let me see. Before I forgive you, I need to see something.
Charles:Yeah, the will you forgive me is yeah, that's basically just giving the other person Will you forgive me alone, without the others is just saying, okay, now I did this thing to bother you. Now I need you to do something really hard or make me feel better by saying that you'll forgive me.
Dan:Yeah, and I feel like it's almost disrespectful because it's I don't have to do anything. I made a mistake and I think so little of you that I don't have to do anything and I've got the balls to ask you to forgive me for this. But you know it's a little bit nuanced here. I'm sure Examples he gives, not just that.
Charles:Okay, so let's go through that. All four of these, I feel, are lacking in one way or another. So we'll do the bad ones first. First one last time I looked only God has the power to forgive. I said I was sorry. It's not good enough. I don't know what to tell you, so obviously that's terrible. The other negative one is I wish you would quit playing the victim. So you got hurt. Boo hoo, life goes on. Get over it. Wow, these are apologies. No, that's just insult. How can I make this worse? Yeah, it's like Don Rickles up there doing insult comedy. These are not anything close to an apology. The two that are the modest of a good apology for somebody whose language is requesting forgiveness.
Charles:I find them also to be not very good for a couple reasons. First, I'm sorry for the way I spoke to you. I know it was loud and intense. You didn't deserve that. It was very wrong of me and I want to ask you to forgive me.
Charles:But saying I want to ask you to forgive me is like me saying I want to ask you out on a date. The reasonable answer in both cases is okay, so do it. Yeah, like you're just voicing an intention of something you'd like to do. That's not the same as saying would you please consider forgiving me? Yeah, it's weak. I want to ask you to forgive me. Why would he think that's okay? Yeah, it's because that's not asking someone to forgive you. I'm not saying that you would like to. Can I ask you a question, exactly so? That would annoy me. For that reason. Here's another one. I know that what I did hurt you very deeply. You have every right never to speak to me again, but I am truly sorry for what I did and I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. You have every right not to speak. Okay, you say that to your wife. That's just being overdramatic.
Dan:You have every right to never talk to me again and now it's insincere To me. It feels extremely insincere.
Charles:It's not even one of the other extremes. You're like, yeah, that's taking on a, you're an actor. At this point Exactly, and that just reeks of overdramatic effect to me. You have every right never to talk to me again where you're completely justified in being extremely upset and extremely hurt. That's a real thing to say. You have a right never to speak to me again. That's something a high school boy says to his high school girlfriend.
Dan:I feel like that's a cop out, so you actually have to do the hard work of actually making a change or issue some sort of restitution. That's to me, that's a can I get away with just acting really upset exactly if I bring up, or do I actually have to make a change because I don't want to do?
Charles:that, yeah, that, for whatever reason. That really turned me off. When I read that I was like this is bullshit. Yeah, you don't say you have a right never to speak to me again, or I understand if you never want to see me again. It feels like just something a dramatic fictional character would do when they put their hand over.
Dan:Yeah, you know, honestly, if somebody said that to me in a relationship, that'd be the beginning of the end. I'd be looking to get out at that point. Yeah, because I'm like, wow, you're being overdramatic like this, like who are you? You're gonna be acting that way in other situations? Now I'm assuming probably yeah, and with other people.
Charles:Here's the version of this I've done before. Oh okay, I guess it's 100 my fault. I take on full responsibility. This is all on me.
Dan:I, you've never done anything wrong stuff like yeah, yeah and you know what's interesting, because I heard the monotone in your voice when you're just saying that now, which is of not really feeling anything Exactly, it's just throwing it out there.
Charles:Or even when you say it sincerely, it's basically saying I value my shame experience that I'm having right now more than you or this relationship. You called me on something I did that was wrong and I agree that it was wrong, but now I'm going to Now I'm set for it. I'm going to retreat inside of my own personal shame and I agree that it was wrong, but now I'm going to, I'm going to retreat inside of my my own personal shame, and so I've definitely done that before. And yeah, and it has exactly the result that you think it would. Yeah, thugs, yeah, okay, yeah, we. So here's the thing that that kind of set me off again at the toward the end of this part of the requesting forgiveness.
Charles:Asking for forgiveness is an admission of guilt. It shows that you know you deserve some degree of condemnation or punishment. Those two words, man, they rub me the wrong way big time. Yeah, condemnation or punishment, I deserve condemnation or punishment, yeah. And then it's a bit extreme requesting forgiveness shows that you were willing to put the future of your relationship in the hands of your wife. Okay, I, yeah, I would say requesting forgiveness of someone does say you're willing to give up some power to them and I think that's valuable, it just yeah, I again, this is not something. If somebody told me this is what they need from me, I think it would be fairly easy for me to meet that request, because it doesn't really move the needle for me, as we already discussed. Yeah, I need you to say will you forgive me? Okay, sure, I'll say that, because it's like nothing to me. Yeah, yeah.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah Again for me, because that's not my primary language, I would then be on the lookout. Primary language I would then be on the lookout. I'd be micromanaging and going okay, is this going to happen again? Because to me that doesn't mean enough, just saying I forgive you, I release you of this obligation to make up for the wrong that you did, by just saying a word To me. Now I'm doing something that I don't want to do in any relationship, which is micromanage, and we pay a lot of attention to things, because now I'm a little concerned because we're on different pages. If you think that it's enough for you to just be granted a word from me and not want to do anything differently or change I, I need to feel that in some way.
Charles:Yeah. What I'm wondering is how would you feel, though, if you had a partner who said would you do something that bothers me? All that I need to hear is you saying you asking me for my forgiveness. How would you feel about that? Would you be okay with that? I don't need to say I'm sorry. I don't need to say I'm wrong. I don't need you to say I'll make it up to you. I don't need you to say here's why it won't happen again. All I need for you to do, dan, is say will you forgive me?
Dan:Probably not, because that's not how I operate. And now I'm concerned that she's not the kind of person I thought she was or the kind of person that I want to be with, because now I'm thinking she's thinking in a way that just doesn't comprehend or jive with the way that I think about things. So again, what are these? How is this going to show up in other situations? Because I feel like that's while you're putting up with, I feel like a lot by just being okay with me saying oh, I'm sorry, and then moving on. Will you forgive me? Will you forgive me?
Charles:Yeah, and that's just so it reminds me of parents, who are the you need to say I'm sorry to your sister, but I'm not sorry. You just need to say it anyway and it's. I've heard that, yeah, yeah, but why would I say? What's in it for you or my sister to hear me say words that everyone knows? I don't believe.
Charles:I think everyone's in a situation where then you just throw a I'm sorry kind of one of those, right, and that's where you start. But as an adult you know it causes another, a whole other blow up, right? It's just like like I've heard that demand from a parent when I was already old enough to have the conversation of oh wow, I'm not sorry for this and I've told you I'm not sorry, I told you I'm not going to change this behavior. But for you, there's something in it for you to hear me insincerely just make the noises with my mouth like that's what you want me to do wow, you laid it out exactly like that, probably in late high school or college, holy cow.
Charles:And and they said yes, I want you to say it, even though you don't mean it. Yeah, you and I we're not on the same page about how humans should interact with each other.
Dan:Exactly this is insane to me it doesn't make any sense. So, no, okay, what are the things that we completely disagree about? That are important.
Charles:Yeah, it's up there with no offense to our religious listeners. It's like if you kill this chicken on this particular altar, then you'll have good crops next year. Yeah, it seems to be like some weird superstitious connection. I need you to make the noises that sound like I'm sorry, even though I know you're not sorry. You don't believe it. I need to hear those words, because those words will do something magical for me.
Dan:So I think you're onto something, because it's similar to cd. So some people, they some ocds. Oh, I need to go back and check that. I turned the oven off and you do that two or three or four times or whatever, when you weren't even using the oven.
Dan:But I have heard that in some cases, people need to be told certain things to ease their OCD tendencies. Interesting, even if there is no meaning behind it. It's not like if there's an issue or they're apologizing for something. It's like one of those where it's like uh, you didn't wish me a good flight, right? Oh, I've heard that. And now it's so that, along the lines of a superstition or just same thing, some people they wear, if their favorite team won the super bowl and they're wearing a specific underwear at that time, they wear that every time they're playing the game. Now, right, it's just so.
Dan:I think it's a little maybe some OCD stuff, maybe some superstitious stuff. I've got I'm sure I've got some things that I do just out of habit or they make me feel a little bit better, even though they really probably don't do anything. I keep a list. Yeah, okay, all right, nice, all the things that you do like that. Yeah, but maybe it's something. Maybe it's something like that in the case that you were talking about. They just need to hear that you said you were sorry yeah, I guess it's got to be.
Charles:There's got to be some value in that ritual for some people. Yeah, I'm sure I've got some of those things too, but it's hard for them. Like if somebody pointed out one of those things to me that I do, it feels like that would break the spell. You know what I mean? Oh, interesting, okay, there's somebody trying to light on it. Yeah, yeah, it could be. You want this thing and you would agree that there's no reason for it. I like to think that would be possible. Maybe not, but anyway. So, yes, I.
Charles:The final point is yeah, you got to offer sincere apologies in the way that people can hear them.
Charles:There are going to be cases where you're apologizing purely for the impact of your actions, even when you had the best of intentions, and so you didn't do something morally wrong that still had a negative effect on somebody you care about, and so you still, in that case, to mend things, you still have to say, hey, I'm sorry, when I said such and such, it hurt your feelings.
Charles:Because the question you got to ask yourself is, even though you didn't do anything morally wrong, if you had it to do over again and you knew that different actions would have a more positive effect on your partner. Would you do things differently? And if the answer is yes, then it shouldn't be that hard for you to apologize for that thing. If you could wind back the clock of the universe and go about something in a different way that would not lead your partner's feelings to get hurt, would you take that opportunity? Or would you say no, I didn't do anything wrong, I do it exactly the same way? If your answer is I do it exactly the same way, even knowing that it hurt them, then you're definitely not ready to apologize. You might not be ready to be in a relationship.
Dan:Yeah, I feel like this part is probably the most important part of the book, because when there's something to apologize for, I really feel like it's a make or break moment in that relationship. Oh yeah, in terms of the direction it starts to spin. Exactly, it's going to show you the direction, yes, and whether, if you handle it the right way, it can bring you a lot closer together, and it's an opportunity in that direction, and if you don't handle it well, it could be quickly spiraling towards the end at that point, because now you're revealing the kind of person that you are and she and the other person is revealing the kind of person that they are. So get a hold of this and get skilled in recognizing how to apologize. Get good at it and take the quiz too. That was insightful.
Charles:Yeah, you can take the five apologies language quiz online for free. That didn't cost us anything. And at the back of the book and look, I bought this five love languages from Mbook used online for $5. And it comes with a 30 question love language quiz for him and for her. You can also get the free version of the quiz online.
Charles:One of the things I will say, though, is the guy who said one of these apologies oh, I'm sorry, but if the things I do keep offending you, maybe you're the one who needs to change. Did you ever think about that? That horrible apology? You maybe you're the one who needs to change. Did you ever think about that? That horrible apology? If you do find yourself in a position where you are constantly offending your partner and you're constantly apologizing for something that both of you agree isn't morally wrong, it's just the way you speak, the way you carry yourself, whatever is constantly putting your partner in a in an activated state where she's upset. You definitely don't want to say maybe she needs to change, but you do need to.
Charles:I think it's only fair to take a look at your compatibility as a partner, having a certain set of values, a sense of humor, a way about communicating thoughts and ideas with people that, at its core level, is offensive and upsetting to somebody you're with.
Charles:It is worth asking the question of okay, are these just preferences and habits of my own that I can modify and I can change, or is it my personality and the way I view humor and language is just at odds with the way that she does, and we're probably not going to be able to get past this. I would certainly bring a third party in for those kinds of questions, because that's a big deal. You don't want to just write off a relationship to say, okay, I like these comedians and she thinks they're offensive, so we can't be together. But it could be that you guys are mismatched as far as your temperament, your sense of humor, what offends you, your politics, all those things. If you find yourself constantly in a position where you're apologizing for things that both of you agree are moral failings they're not character defects but one or both of you are still always offended by the way the other person expresses themselves, then yeah, you should ask yourself, okay, are these changeable things, or are these deeply ingrained in my personality that I'm not going to be changing?
Dan:Yeah, communication is difficult enough, but now, if your natural way of communicating is almost causing more farm than than good, you're swimming upstream and trying to stay in that relationship because not only I'm trying to communicate and manage emotions both, but now the form and the way that you're communicating are actually potentially causing more harm because the other person's offended in some way or doesn't completely, doesn't understand, like the way you're expressing yourself. I think that's a recipe for disaster and you definitely need to.
Charles:Yeah, but I will say this could vary. This discussion could very be very easily be hijacked by a person with an avoided attachment style to give them an excuse to always dump their way out of relationships too soon and not do any work on themselves. My advice would be default to the idea of most the things about the way you communicate can be changed, and there's a good chance that you just have adopted coping mechanisms and defense mechanisms that kind of make you a little gruffer or a little rougher than you absolutely have to be in the healthiest version of yourself. So assume that there is work to be done, that there are lots of things you can do to make your communication better. But if you're trying that, if you're trying new methods, you're trying new things, you're doing uncomfortable things to improve yourself and they're not working.
Charles:Yeah, bring in a third party and say, look, I've got this concern. And by third party, a professional, and say, I've tried all these things, I've got this concern that maybe our communication styles are just incompatible. I want to know if there's more work I can do or if I'm banging my head against the wall and her and I would both be better off in different relationships. So yeah, don't let it be like this guy, just say, hey look, this is just the way I am and maybe you're the one that should change, but be open to the possibility that, look, most relationships are mismatches. They're not going to work long-term. When you factor in every dating relationship marriage, boyfriend, girl, whatever 3% of them will survive and the rest of them will fail. So there's a strong possibility you're in a mismatch situation Now.
Charles:Is that a mismatch situation that can be overcome with effort? There's a good chance that it is. Are there some that can't be? There's also a good chance that's the case. So just try to look at it realistically and talk to people you trust about it and people that are qualified to offer good advice. Absolutely All right. I enjoyed that one, dan. Thanks very much. We will take a break and then we'll hit the frequently asked questions, which I think you and I should be able to get through fairly quickly, and then we'll be done with this book and we'll talk about what we're doing next. Sounds good, all right, thanks, wow, you made it through the whole thing, so you must like us at least a little bit, in which case you should definitely follow or subscribe to our show in your chosen podcast app. Thanks, we'll talk to you next time.
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