Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men

Understand, Set, and Hold Boundaries

• Episode 145

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In this episode, we dive into the complex world of boundaries, inspired by Dr. Faith Harper's book "Unfuck Your Boundaries." We discuss how boundaries impact your happiness, the challenges men face when setting boundaries, and the importance of respecting others' boundaries. Join us as we explore the psychology behind boundary-setting, the role of gut feelings, and strategies for maintaining healthy relationships.

Key Takeaways:

  • The role of boundaries in personal happiness and relationship health
  • Challenges men face in articulating needs and setting boundaries
  • The importance of respecting boundaries in relationships
  • Insights into high-conflict personalities and their impact on relationships
  • Practical tips for better boundary-setting and maintaining respect for others' boundaries

Featured Topics:

  • How societal expectations affect boundary-setting in men and women
  • The science of gut feelings and how they relate to boundaries
  • Overcoming the fear of setting boundaries in relationships
  • Understanding and dealing with high-conflict personalities
  • The journey from boundary violator to respectful partner

Related Books:

  • "Unfuck Your Boundaries" by Dr. Faith Harper
  • "The 5 Love Languages for Men" by Gary Chapman

Call to Action: Subscribe now to join us on this journey of self-improvement and relationship mastery. Don’t miss out on our next episode where we dive deeper into the strategies Dr. Harper recommends for building and maintaining healthy boundaries.

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Charles:

Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Okay, so this is our first episode covering a brand new book called Un-F your Boundaries by Dr Faith Harper, and I just want to give you a little bit of a preview of some of the topics we'll be discussing today and in the coming weeks. We'll talk about the importance of setting and maintaining personal boundaries in your relationships, talk about understanding and recognizing high conflict personalities. We'll discuss gender differences and setting boundaries, social expectations and conformity, as well as the value of trusting gut feelings. So I hope you enjoy the series. Please follow or subscribe to the podcast in your chosen podcast app and also check out our full episodes with audio and video that are available on youtube. Thanks and enjoy good morning, charles good morning, dan.

Dan:

How are you? I'm doing good. How's, how's life up there in lake mary?

Dan:

life is pretty good. Life is pretty good. I uh, I've I actually started getting back up at 4.30 in the morning this week. Oh yeah, and I've been making it to the gym in the morning.

Dan:

Are you going to be serious about it and start our calls back up, or do you reserve the right to bail on this routine whenever you want to?

Dan:

Yeah, I'm reserving the right to bail on this routine whenever.

Dan:

I want to Okay, fair enough, the calls. Yeah, the calls. Actually honestly, yeah, I think, because there's some days where it just can't happen. I need to make an adjustment and then it would just be a pain in the ass to have to call you, and so I don't think that does. It doesn't really work for me. And I'm excited, I'm motivated to go because it started off a new routine for me not just going to the gym, but also working at Starbucks, and when I'm going to work at Starbucks-.

Dan:

Are you a barista or an assistant manager?

Dan:

I'm sweeping the floors so as a volunteer. Right now nobody knows what I'm doing. I just show up with a broom, but the place is spic and span, so you're welcome. Lake Mary Starbucks.

Dan:

That's interesting. I didn't know you were doing that. What's, what's it been? What's it been like? How many days have you done it?

Dan:

I've done it three times already and again it's. It's been a learning experience because I haven't had to go to an office and do work in front of other people. I've always been doing it at home for years now and it's refreshing to go there and I dress like I'm being a professional, I'm collared, shirt and pants and everything else like that. It's no casual wear. It definitely sets my mindset and I thought initially I was biased that all of the distractions at Starbucks the music, the people, everything moving around would distract me from actually doing work. But it's actually less distracting and it's enjoyable.

Dan:

I'm able to focus. I put some brain FM tunes on my headphones and I'm able to focus and get work done and then take little breaks just by looking up and seeing what's going on around me. Focus and get work done and then take little breaks just by looking up and seeing what's going on around me. And it's a completely different environment than my house where I have other distractions going on, like doing laundry or cooking or cleaning or whatever that is. And I've actually been able to focus on my to-do list lists where I have things getting organized, random thoughts I have not organized that in years. I'm finally getting through that, as well as making strides toward building the coaching business. I have not organized that in years. I'm finally getting through that, as well as making strides toward building the coaching business. I've been loving it and enjoying their citrus iced caffeine.

Dan:

Yeah, you've told me about that a couple of times, it's good stuff, you like it. Delicious.

Dan:

Yeah. A little pricey, but I like it.

Dan:

Yeah, I was just looking. I told you the other day I'm considering making another run at 75 hard when I get back from either Europe or podcast movement. Probably starting after podcast movement would be the smartest, especially since I'm making that podcast movement trip a road trip and that, yeah, that's probably a bridge too far. But anyway, one of the things I was looking at was I. The only reason I gave up on 75 hard the first time was the water requirement and drinking a gallon of water a day and because I I just get bored.

Dan:

I don't like the taste. Water doesn't have a taste that I dislike. I would say it's the texture and the lack of taste that is a problem for me. So when I throw sparkling into the mix, it makes it a lot easier. When I throw even a mild flavor into the mix, it helps. And I saw that Crystal Light now has these little individual packet which they've had those for a while. But what I didn't know was they have them with caffeine added so you could get like grape flavor with caffeine or wild strawberry with caffeine and I'm thinking that might help me with the diet adherence. Part of 75 Hard.

Dan:

Have you? Celsius has those too. Have you tried Celsius? They have packets the same thing sugar-free flavor, and I don't think it's caffeine, I think it's green tea.

Dan:

But Okay, which that's good, because that has theanine and caffeine usually.

Dan:

I'm not sure.

Dan:

I think green tea is where theanine comes from.

Dan:

Yeah, it could be, I'm not sure.

Dan:

I tried A-Celsius once, but it was just like somebody else's that I took a sip of, and it wasn't a flavor that I was particularly excited about, so I may give them another shot.

Dan:

So my experience has been that they taste really good, but in terms of the effect of waking me up, it's not very strong. It's not as strong as a Red Bull and it's not as strong as a caffeine pill or a cup of coffee, and maybe it's because it is some form of the green tea and maybe there's that calming, maybe there's some theanine in there. But I've been a little disappointed because I'm like ah, I needed a little bit more. I was drinking it when I really needed it. It didn't deliver.

Dan:

Yeah, really, If you're interested in an over-the-counter stimulant for either appetite suppression or for energy, it's like a 200 milligram caffeine pill is. They cost almost nothing. On Amazon you could get a giant jar of caffeine pills for very little money and nothing's really going to hit as well as a 200 milligram caffeine pill, whether it's going for the gym or trying to just not snack while you're driving from here to there. So yeah, it's really hard to beat. But my number two below that is just hammering espressos, specifically Americanos, all day. That's the other thing, Because sometimes if I don't feel like the sudden rush from a caffeine pill, just getting a nice, nice venti Americano in an insulated cup, I could just microdose the caffeine all day long.

Dan:

And I didn't realize. You can use your own cups at Starbucks now.

Dan:

Oh, yeah, they prefer it.

Dan:

Yeah, I looked around, nobody else had their own cup there, so I was like all right, how does this work?

Dan:

That's because the white and green Starbucks cup is the cheapest status symbol available in America today.

Dan:

What's interesting, though, is everybody's in Starbucks, though they're already in there, so you need the status too, but it's this huge plastic cup, and I'm just like so again every time I've gone. I wasn't using the Starbucks app with the card and everything else like that, and I'm just like I so, again, every time I've gone, I wasn't using the Starbucks app with the card and everything else like that, and so I just learned how to use it, and it was just like. I ordered ahead of time, but I like didn't fill out my birth date and something else wasn't exactly on point, so they didn't have my transaction, so I couldn't tip afterward. So I actually chatted with Starbucks support, asked them hey, how can I add a tip? They couldn't figure it out. I called them and said hey, how do I add a tip? And they're like oh, you need to. There was something else. I kept saying we're brewing your rewards card right now.

Dan:

And then she told me I had to put my birth date in there and I was like what I figured it out.

Dan:

I was like I figured it out. Well, just keep in mind for the security conscious people out there, aka the paranoids, when they ask for your birthday, you don't have to give them the real one, you can just make one up, Obviously.

Dan:

I have my made up one that I use everywhere. Yeah, I usually. Just I haven't done it for a while, but just because it's easy, I usually do January 1st 1980, because it's around the same generation as me and it's always easy for me to remember oh, if I gave somebody a fake birthday, that's the one that I gave it. But this is my Starbucks mug that I'm using today. This is my favorite one. It's not great for my car because it's a little too skinny and too tall for my cup holder but I got this for I got this with for free with starbucks stars.

Dan:

My rewards paid for this. Oh nice, yeah, because once you get up to I don't know what it is now, but it used to be 400 stars, you get basically a 20 gift card that you can use in any starbucks on anything you want, and so I got this with that, and it fits a full pot when I make four cups of coffee, it fits all four right in here.

Dan:

So what is that little indent button at the bottom there?

Dan:

This is a little Starbucks, silver Starbucks logo, because, again, you still need the status, you still need to be like. This isn't some Ozark Trail or Amazon reusable travel mug. This is legit Starbucks. Or Stanley. Yeah, my little car. Yeah, that's a big one too, my little copper, one that I do keep in my car. It also has the little button logo on it.

Dan:

Good for Stanley figuring it out. I see all these girls with these Stanley mugs and I'm like what? The company that makes tape measures and Sears tools is now tapped into a completely untapped demographic. It's fantastic.

Dan:

One of the nurses at the nursing home either lost or misplaced her Stanley tumbler and it was one of the pink ones that you wait outside Target you stand in line to get and the facility went on lockdown until we were able to locate what happened to her Stanley Tumbler. It was wild, oh my God. All right, so we're about 11 and a half minutes in. We may or may not edit some of this out, because I wanted to do a short episode a half minutes in. We may or may not edit some of this out, but because I wanted to do a short episode.

Dan:

So while we were doing five love languages for men, it was actually your idea to find a book and do a series on boundaries, which I am 100% on board for, because I find that one of the things I heard from Brene Brown years ago was that the difference between happy people and sad people are how strong and healthy their boundaries are. If somebody has strong, healthy boundaries, they're more likely to be a happy person, and if they don't, they're going to be a sad person. It's like okay when that comes from her.

Dan:

I'm going to believe it.

Dan:

Yeah, Through this process of us talking about things and boundaries coming up here and there, I just realized what a foundational topic or skill or trait that is to have in terms of your health and it being a platform for anything else you want to do in terms of giving you some confidence, some peace of mind.

Dan:

I implemented some ideas for myself yesterday. Little things, basically little things. Me basically saying I'm not going to be afraid to ask for something that I want as long as it's not obviously outrageous, Whereas a lot of times in the past, because it was a little uncomfortable for me or potentially my brain was thinking it was going to cause an uncomfortable situation for me, asking for this it would have been just like asking to go to the bathroom before I'm like leaving the doctor's office because I'm already on the way out the door. I walked back in and go hey, can I use the bathroom? And I because I knew it was gonna be like a 40 minute drive, I'd be uncomfortable, and obviously it went so much better than my amygdala thought it was going to.

Dan:

Happy smell. Sure, here went so much better than my amygdala thought it was going to. It was a happy smile. Sure, here, there you go. And where did that assumption come from? But again, it was just me upholding a boundary that I set for myself in the morning that I'm going to ask for things that I want and not be afraid of it.

Dan:

I went through something with a family member while I was up in New Jersey last weekend where I had treated them to a very expensive meal and when the time came for them to pick up a meal for me which was basically maybe a sixth of the cost of what I had already treated they asked me for my credit card to pay for it and initially was a little upset. I told them don't worry about it, I'll figure something else out. And then I realized I should not. I should be able to give that when I treated I didn't expect anything in return. At the time I didn't know anything. So then, and I should have asked before they offered to get that meal for me if they were going to treat and I didn't.

Dan:

So it was tough. It took me a few minutes to get through that and feel okay about it. I took a nap, I laid down and I woke up and I was okay and I was able to let it go. That's interesting. It was a small example. It's a small example of covert contracts and not setting boundaries and also being okay freely giving. It's so funny because, like, I was totally fine giving it, thinking I wasn't going to get anything in return at the time, and then later on, when something was offered to me where I thought she was going to pay for it and didn't, I didn't get upset till then. It was weird, but in my mind I'm looking at myself.

Dan:

I'm like no, that is interesting.

Dan:

Now you.

Dan:

Yeah, let's, we'll drill down and make it more specific, so you and I have an unspoken rule of I'll pick up this one, you'll pick up the next one is we've never really we've never really talked about that though. Is that working for you, or?

Dan:

Yeah, that's working for me. I think it's fair.

Dan:

And again, we've never had a conversation about it until right now and I've never felt like we had to, but I suppose it's better to. It's better to have the conversation that you don't need, yeah.

Dan:

Have the conversation that you do Honestly. It's my turn or whatever. Let me know.

Dan:

Not a problem at all. It was easier when you and I were going out every week Exactly. It was easier to keep track of who's who.

Dan:

Going to the same place too. Getting the same thing definitely made it easier. For sure, I didn't feel like we needed to, because we spent enough time with each other that I think we have a pretty good idea of that. We're on the same page with quite a bit of stuff, and I think with other things we've been very even and fair and try to split things as much as possible. Yeah, I was just assuming, yeah, we didn't even need to talk about it, but now that I think about it, yeah, I'm glad we broached the subject.

Charles:

Is that how you say it. I think so is that right okay.

Dan:

I'm always thinking, like when a whale comes out of the water, like that breach, that's a breach. That's a breach but not a broach.

Dan:

We preach the subject anyway, whatever is, maybe broach is the past tense of breach, I don't know oh, wow, okay, we'll have to look that up Anyway.

Dan:

So we brought this up. You and I talked about using one book for this series and we have since switched to another book. Part of that, I would say, is related to the way the previous author laid out their book didn't make it quite as easy to one, easy to divide up into episodes and two, there were a lot of lists and worksheets in her book that are certainly lists. I don't know about worksheets, but there were a lot of lists in her book that don't translate as well to the audio version, which you and I have a strong preference for, right, yeah exactly yeah, so I think that would count as like the performance.

Dan:

I don't know One of those kind of abstract type of ratings on Audible. I was not happy with the performance and, again, maybe the written content in written form would be much more digestible and easy for me to work with. But for what we try to do it really wasn't working for me. And this one is and this is minus some of the swearing but for what we try to do it really wasn't working for me. And this one is and this is my, mine is some of the swearing, but this one is.

Dan:

Yes. So the book we're introducing in this episode is unfuck your boundaries by Dr Faith Harper, and for the remainder of the series we will just refer to it as an F, not because I have any problem with finding certain noises made by the human mouth more offensive than others, but just because I will get burned out. I would get burned out as a listener hearing the F word over and over and over again on a podcast and I would even get burned out saying it as a podcast host and I would even get burnout saying it as a podcast host. So from now on we'll refer to it as un-F your boundaries.

Dan:

But she has a whole un-F series of un-F your intimacy, un-f your PTSD, un-f your mind, I think, is one of them. Yeah, she's done a whole series and she titles it and speaks in a way that you and I talked about. I find a little performative, a little over the top, where it seems like she looks for ways to use slang language and she looks for ways to use hip young people words, which is weird, because the audio book we're listening to I would say that it's being read by a woman of our age or slightly older, and so is it the zip drive comment?

Dan:

oh, that was one thing too, yeah, I gave it away referencing zip drives.

Dan:

Yeah that also told me like when, okay, when was?

Dan:

that brought me back do you mean zip files or zip drives? That was one thing, but also her constantly saying on the reg instead of regularly, it's just okay, it's. And again, I don't know if it's because I'm uh, I'm ageist, which I'm certain I certainly am that. Just ask me for my opinions on presidential politics and it won't take long for you to figure out how much of an ageist I am. But yeah, it's a little, it's a little irritating. I would say, but the content's great, other am. But yeah, it's a little irritating. I would say, but the content's great Other than that. It's just. That's a style issue, not a content issue.

Dan:

It reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Elaine was overusing the exclamation points, and I don't know if you remember that one.

Dan:

I do, now that you said it, yeah, and, yeah, top of the muffin to you, yeah, yeah, she throws a lot of swears around in there and I feel like all that is is an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence and it's like the word smurf, right when it could be used for anything A lot of our swears, and all it does is, honestly, it distracts me from the points that she's making.

Dan:

Look, I respect her as a marketer for niching down and saying, okay, I'm going to be polarizing with my message or my style and in so I'm going to really attract some people that might not be attracted to these kinds of books, yeah, but then the other side of that is always okay, some people that I would otherwise appeal to, maybe put off by the way that I'm delivering this. So I appreciate where she's coming from and, again, for me the value of the content is worth it for me, worth the distraction of these hip terms and these swear words that she is throwing out there. Okay, let's talk a little bit about what it is that she's trying to do and what we're trying to get done with the series here. Excuse this digression, but I want to see how you feel about this.

Dan:

I saw a meme recently where a woman was complaining about the standard for women's formal wear, where the idea of if you're going out to a fancy work function I would say cocktail party or more formal attire. This woman was complaining about how it's unfair that she has to have essentially a new dress for every formal function that she attends. And the meme was a guy responding to her, where the guy was basically saying. I understand that you think that's unfair, but just so you know, as a man I'm probably not going to notice. And if I do notice I am certainly not going to care that I've seen you in the same fancy dress two times 100%.

Dan:

I'm right on board with that guy.

Dan:

Yeah, and the point he was making was this is a standard that you and other women are forcing upon yourselves. It is not one that's coming from from.

Dan:

Yeah.

Dan:

And why did I bring that up? I would say that the fear of a man in a relationship setting boundaries or asking for what he needs. We are not being discouraged from that process by women. I would say it's more likely that we're feeling self-conscious and uptight about that due to our relations and our interactions with other men. Would you agree with that? I would to see if there are any books written on boundaries for and by men, and there are plenty of books written by men about boundaries but not for a male audience.

Dan:

I'm hoping that in this series we'll be able to use Dr Harper's sort of gender neutral and, if anything, I would say that her book may be targeted a little bit more toward women than men.

Dan:

I don't think that was her intention, but I think with some of the issues she brings up the difficulty around setting boundaries it does seem like she approaches it a little bit more from the difficulty that women might have setting and maintaining boundaries than men.

Dan:

But hopefully we can bring in a little bit of color commentary that will make it more relevant for men, because I've certainly experienced in my relationships the feeling of I don't want to talk about what I need and I don't want to set this boundary because, as a man, I feel obligated to just be able to roll with the punches and everything is like water off a duck's back and I need to be just cool and easygoing with everything. And anything I do to break that image would actually coming out and saying, hey, I need you to change the way that you treat me if we're going to be in this relationship, or even on the request side. Hey, I'd really appreciate it if you did this instead of that. Yeah, I have some internal controls that pressure me to put the brakes on before I initiate those conversations.

Dan:

Yeah, I think we all do, both men and women, and I think ultimately it comes from living in society and seeing other people and feeling pressure from the people around us and reading things and watching things, where people do handle things and just deal with it, and a lot of times, like social media, you only see the best of it. Same thing, like on a TV show or a movie. You don't necessarily always see the downsides of them dismissing their own needs and not enforcing their boundaries and have that struggle. But I totally agree with you as a man. A lot of times the history of what being a man typically is that masculinity thing is you're not supposed to be upset with anything or have a problem with anything. You just deal with it or you fix it or whatever it is. You just trudge on.

Dan:

Yeah, and I'm definitely not trying to get into the comparison of, oh, men have it worse when it comes to setting boundaries than women. I'm just saying men have it different. I'm sure women have completely maybe not completely, but have different pressures with why they feel like, oh, setting a boundary or sharing my need would not be a good idea right now. Boundary or sharing my need would not be a good idea right now, and, and I think the reasons why it would not feel like a good idea to them in many cases are very different from the reasons that it may not feel good to us. But I think that we both experience it and I just want to, you know, because you and I we're going to from our own experience, we're going to be able to share why it feels weird or bad for us as men, in a way that trying to speak authoritatively on why it doesn't feel good for women, in those cases we're going to have to rely on the author of the book to deliver that message, where, when it comes to why you and I don't feel comfortable with it, I think we could definitely speak to that with some authority.

Dan:

Okay, so some of the other topics that she's going to get into in the book and that we're going to share understanding boundaries, defining what boundaries are, the different types of boundaries and the importance of consent and boundary violations. And the thing I do like about the book already is she talks about boundary violations from the perspective of hey, I violated someone else's boundaries, here's why that's a problem and here's what I can actually do to train myself to stop doing that. But also, when you set a boundary and you don't maintain it, that is you violating, or at least being complicit in the violation of your boundaries with the person that violates your boundary, and that's also a behavior that we need to learn how to let go of.

Dan:

Oh, absolutely. By doing that you are losing respect for yourself and probably most likely in that other person's eyes as well, because then you are not really doing what you said you're going to do, and then I think that also undermines people's trust in you as well. So this can go pretty deep, psychologically, I think, when you're not honoring your boundaries.

Dan:

Yeah, no doubt, and every interaction that you have with someone is a bit of a training exercise, isn't it? You're training them how to relate to you, and you're training yourself how you'll allow other people to relate to you. And when you have a pattern of either never articulating your needs to someone or your boundaries and then not maintaining those boundaries or being firm on your needs, then, yeah, you're training the world around you how they should look at your needs and boundaries as well, and they will behave toward you the way that you train them.

Dan:

Yeah, and I just had a moment of realization. I don't know what you're going to call it, but again, when it comes to your future self, I like to sometimes clean up and do a favor for my future self. Put my clothes out for the next day. The same thing applies here with what you just said in terms of training the other person, in terms of the way they treat you. They're going to be treating your future self based on what your current self is establishing and upholding right. Do your future self a favor and set it up for a healthy, enjoyable relationship with that person. Suck it up and do a little bit of uncomfortable work and conversations and communication now, ideally Easier said than done. Easier said than done.

Dan:

But look, giving a damn about your future self is probably isn't that kind of the root of all personal development or self-care. It's really I care about the future version of me and I want him to have a better life, not a worse life. And if you bring that on as part of your identity, then, yeah, sure enough, that's what will happen. Your future self will have a better life than your past self does. She gets a bit into the science, but it's in a very digestible, understandable way about the neuroscience and the psychology of what setting and maintaining boundaries does and how you can use your body's reactions to people and situations to tell you hey, here's a place where you might need to plant a flag.

Dan:

And I liked the example that she offered of her. I believe it's her husband, who has experience as a private detective or a private investigator, and when you're in that field, you deal with people lying to you all the time, on the regular, as she would say. And she asked him how do you know when somebody is BSing you and when they're being honest with you? And his answer was I listen to the little man that lives in my stomach. So a gut feeling is a real thing, that's not just a colloquial shorthand that we use to describe something that really is. Feelings can come from your gut, and listening to that is very important, and one of the exercises she goes into is think about a time when you had a gut feeling about someone and you chose to ignore it. How did that work out for you? And those gut feelings are usually if they're not true, they're still valuable. There's still something to learn from them, even if they're not factually true or objectively true in the moment. You know what I mean.

Dan:

I'm thinking about it. And do you ever remember hearing a time where somebody goes? My gut was wrong on this, Because I've never heard that and maybe it's because of the way the conversations are, the context of them, but I can't ever remember having a conversation going. Oh, I pay attention to my gut and it was wrong.

Dan:

I wouldn't say no. I've not heard it in that specific language.

Dan:

I have my initial feelings were wrong, Other than initial impressions of people. I can't think of many times where my gut has been incorrect and my more evolved part of my brain has been correct.

Dan:

No, I agree with you. I think there are different parts of our brain and even different life experiences that we learn from and we build upon. When you meet a new person, I think the process of oh, that guy's a creep or oh, that guy's kind of a prick, I think that's probably bringing in some very different parts of our brain and our personal experience to make that determination.

Dan:

Yeah.

Dan:

And look, there are plenty of people that you can think, all right, that guy's kind of a prick, but not that guy's a threat to my safety. You know what I mean? You know what I mean when I've certainly I've never heard of a case of somebody who thought, oh, that guy might be a threat to my safety. And they were wrong. I think they. Either that person did something down the line that revealed okay, yeah, that guy's got some big problems that could really mess up my life, or I felt that somebody who's I felt it so strongly about that guy that I never interacted with them again. And I don't know if I was right, but I know I made the right decision, yeah.

Dan:

Yeah, that being said, not that we're even started on this book yet, but I would love to see if we could find some content on how to fine tune listening to our gut and how to get better at doing that. I definitely feel like that would be beneficial for me.

Dan:

Yeah, I would think there's probably material out there on that, because I think it's a big deal. What did you think about the section on high conflict personalities? Have you gotten to that part of the book yet? I?

Dan:

did. I did and I recognized that I've dated some people with high conflict personalities. Yeah, and it actually helped me feel a little bit more empathy toward them.

Dan:

Thinking about how they ended up in that situation and ended up with that type of personality, knowing the things I know about their background and their history, it actually helped me feel a little bit more empathy and for them, yeah, but yeah, I like the way that she she introduced that idea because one of the things we'll see in media, be it social or the TV shows or movies we watch and I've joked about this before it's like how is it that every single person you talk to their ex is a sociopath or a narcissist? But the statistics are very clear that those people make up each maybe 1% of the population.

Dan:

When she threw those numbers out I couldn't believe that was like 1%.

Dan:

I'm like wow, yeah, no, I've seen that before and have said that same thing before. It's okay. How can it be that only 1% of the population is a narcissist, but everybody's ex-boyfriend or girlfriend is also a narcissist?

Dan:

Narcissist is always what's going to be in the top 1%. Anyways, it lines up.

Dan:

Yeah, so basically, we're using terms like psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, even histrionic. We're using these terms with our very blunt pop psychology diagnosis of people that we're angry at or upset with when high conflict personality she said that's up to 20% of people that were angry at or upset with when a high conflict personality she said that's up to 20% of people. And so I think what's going on is we're since I myself I was not familiar with the term high conflict personality until we read this book. Yeah, I think we're, because it's easy and because it's always easy to speak culture's language when it comes to stuff like this. It's easy because it's always easy to speak culture's language when it comes to stuff like this. We're labeling people that have a high conflict personality as narcissists or psychopaths, when they certainly, medically, scientifically, they are not those things. They just have some of the traits. Question Do you think that I have a high conflict personality?

Dan:

Yeah, actually.

Dan:

I think you do In some ways. I think I do. I matched up with some of the attributes and we'll get into that more when we get to that part of the book in detail. There were some things that made me think, oh, absolutely.

Dan:

And then there was also some of the but I never do that thing that she's talking about yeah, Look, just like everything else on the planet, everything is, I think, a shade of gray right, so I think there's probably a spectrum.

Dan:

Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dan:

We all exhibit certain qualities and characteristics at certain times, and things like that. But I have to say is, if I were to, if you were to ask me flat out if I have to pick yes or no for you, I would pick yes, and I think because I think you do enjoy getting into conversations that not that you want to cause conflict, I don't think that's the case. I just think that you like to talk about things that make other people uncomfortable sometimes, and so just for that fact it turns into potentially a little bit conflict, maybe for the other person, maybe not for you as much. So I don't know if that fits into that definition, but that's just something that I've noticed.

Dan:

Yeah, no, I agree with everything you said. I would say that, yeah, if I can engage in a conversation with someone and this is on the good side of, because there's more negative ways that this will't have going in then my default setting is oh, absolutely, let's have this conversation, and if somebody gets a little upset about it, that's a small price to pay for learning something new about the way the world works or about the way that people perceive this difficult topic. And yeah, that definitely can make some people feel like, after the conversation's over, some people will feel like, oh, I feel like I just had an argument or a disagreement with someone and I walk away not feeling that way at all. But there are more negative ways that this will happen manifest too when I'm having an argument, a fight with a partner about some issue. Yeah, I'm willing to approach that disagreement in a way that is a little too heavy on the conflict side and a little too light on the giving a damn about what they're experiencing while we're in the middle of it.

Dan:

Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I definitely learned a little bit about that the high conflict personality when she talked about how some people with that in relationships will basically stir up conflict or fights in order to get something else, in order to feel the way they want to feel either feel in control or get an answer to something. Maybe they're feeling like they're not as connected to you and I think we may have touched on that with other books, where I could see people trying to feel closer to somebody else in a relationship. Instead of addressing it with words or addressing it directly with words, they may cause a fight to see hey, does this person still care about me?

Dan:

Yeah, enough to engage with me about this right.

Dan:

Yeah, that is, counterintuitively, something that anxious partners will do in their relationships. They'll be like okay, I'm feeling a little vulnerable, I'm feeling a little insecure about the strength of this relationship. So what I need to do is put my partner through some trials so they can prove that they're really into me. Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly. Okay, let me throw some conflict or throw some essentially some negative experiences into the mix here, and if they're still willing to stick around after I subject them to this, then I know that they care about me. And then what happens? You do a little too much of that and it pushes people away to the point where they're like okay, the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore. I'm going to go ahead and head out. See you later.

Dan:

Yeah, I feel and I'm absolutely guilty of this too is as humans. I feel sometimes we revert back to our primitive brain in terms of how we interact with people, because we either don't have the skill set or we're too tired, we don't have the energy to use the prefrontal cortex, the more evolved part of our brain, where a lot of communication comes from in terms of verbal communication. So I think we might revert back to somewhat primitive type of behaviors in order to still communicate, and then that's where things can go off the rails a lot of time Big time.

Dan:

Yeah, absolutely Okay. So we're going to. Once we've covered that issue of the challenge involved with maintaining one's boundaries, we'll get into some of her strategies for actually making your life better, and I always appreciate it when an author literally says in their material okay, I'm done laying the foundation, I'm done teaching you what you need to understand. Now we're going to move on to the part where you can start making some positive changes. The understanding boundaries and getting to some definitions and some types will be what we'll get into next Friday when you and I get together and record again and for the folks watching this instead of just listening to it, we're going a little old school.

Dan:

Today. I'm recording from my RV and Dan's at his office, but when Dan and I get back together, we haven't dismantled the studio to make room for Dan's adopted great Dane or anything. Nothing's changed with the way that we're going to be recording going forward, Just our schedule. In my efforts to get ready for my trip to Europe just made more sense for me to record this one remotely. But we'll be back in the studio next week.

Dan:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I did get through that chapter and there are a lot of things that she listed out that I didn't realize I was doing as boundary violations, and thinking through them, I could see easily now how I could be violating somebody's boundaries, doing very what I thought was like innocent type of interactions, and so I think, yeah, it's going to be a good one to go through that list of things that she goes through.

Dan:

Yeah, and one of the things, there's a couple. There are a couple topics that we'll get into as we go through this book. That will be, I would say, difficult for us to discuss and difficult for some folks to hear. Some of those will be the societal impact on boundary setting and how certain groups of us may have more difficulty setting and maintaining boundaries than others. And we'll also get into specifically with our target audience, guys who do not have the healthiest attitude toward boundaries and consent that they should.

Dan:

And I love the fact that she says in the book if you have not valued the boundaries or consent of other people and have stepped over them, there are ways that you can turn yourself from the person that does that to the person who no longer does that. And there is a path to going from the guy who doesn't really care as much about that stuff as you should to the guy who honors and respects that in the lives of the people you care about. It's not just okay, you've done some bad things and you've made some mistakes and so we're going to write you off as a piece of shit for the rest of your life. It's no, you can decide to care about that and change yourself from the person that doesn't have that respect to the person that does, and I think that's an important message that men need to not only hear, but men like us, you and me, need to be putting out there.

Dan:

Yeah, remember, we can do hard things.

Dan:

Absolutely To rip off the catchphrase from Glennon Doyle and her podcast, we can do hard things. Absolutely. All right, cool, dan. I'm looking forward to getting into the material a little bit more. I think you and I are both going to order the hard copy of this book so that we can highlight and mark it up as we often do and, yeah, make and mark it up as we often do and make our research and our preparation even more valuable. So I will look forward to doing that and discussing it with you in more detail next week.

Dan:

Sounds good, sir, we'll talk then.

Dan:

All right, take it easy, dan. Bye-bye.

Charles:

Bye. Wow, you made it through the whole thing, so you must like us at least a little bit, in which case you should definitely follow or subscribe to our show in your chosen podcast app. Thanks, we'll talk to you next time.

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