Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
From Conflict to Clarity: The Role of Communication in Boundary Setting
How do you communicate boundaries effectively without creating unnecessary tension? That's the question we tackle in today's episode of the Mindfully Masculine Podcast, inspired by Dr. Faith Harper's transformative book, "Un-F your Boundaries." Get ready to uncover the intricate dance between our thought patterns and the language we choose, and how mastering assertive communication can lead to healthier, more respectful relationships. We'll discuss how early life experiences, like playground teasing, often mold our current hesitations in expressing needs and how differentiating between non-negotiable and flexible boundaries can make all the difference.
Diving further into the art of conversation, we explore strategies for clarity and understanding in our interactions. Discover how to avoid the trap of watering down your messages and instead foster dialogues that bring people closer. With the power of active listening and techniques like the BIF approach—being Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm—we reveal how to navigate even the most sensitive topics with grace and precision. Join us as we share methods to ensure your messages are not only heard but understood, setting the stage for more harmonious interactions.
In the final segment, we turn our attention to conflict resolution and the nuances of dealing with high-conflict personalities. Learn how to maintain your peace with strategies like the "pane of glass" and "gray rock" methods, which can help you manage emotional detachment effectively. We share personal insights into balancing empathy and detachment, encouraging curiosity in difficult conversations. Whether you're facing unsolicited advice or navigating heated debates, you'll walk away equipped with tools to keep calm and carry on, ensuring your relationships are resilient and grounded in mutual respect.
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Thank you for rejoining us after our break. Due to some scheduling issues on my end, as well as some unpleasant weather the state of Florida received and my recent move, I just haven't been spending the time editing the show that I need to. But we're back and we'll be back every week.
Charles:In this week's episode, dan and I will continue to discuss Un-F your Boundaries by Dr Faith Harper, and topics covered will include understanding, boundary communication and consent, the relationship between thought, language and beliefs, types of communication styles, the challenges of boundary setting and masculinity, the impact of childhood and early experiences on boundary setting, balancing boundaries and preferences in relationships, effective communication in relationships, de-escalating conflicts through communication techniques, managing emotions during boundary conflicts and explaining and justifying your boundaries. Please check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom. In addition to our audio and video episodes, any other info that we have to share. That's where it'll be and enjoy the show. Okay, dan, we are back to our book Un-F your Boundaries by Faith Harper, and the section's called Communicating your Boundaries and Consent. I'm going to talk a little bit about how we use communication to set our boundaries and then give people permission and communicate to them how they're allowed to interact with us. I want to talk a little bit about how we think and how we speak and how they affect each other. And you and I have talked about this concept before and everybody understands that the way that you think is going to affect the way that you speak, because you generally will. You think and the way that you talk to yourself and about yourself will impact the kinds of thoughts that you continue to have. And she makes a good point and a good argument that you should consider that the way that you speak. She offers the example of if you're somebody who constantly uses racist language and tells racist jokes, then that will impact, that'll create a feedback loop with how you think about those targets of that speech and those thoughts, and that makes sense. Yeah, if you're used to speaking about certain people in a certain way that devalues them, then you're going to think that they are, in fact, less valuable. That totally tracks, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, less valuable. That totally tracks as far as I'm concerned.
Charles:Then she gets into the communication styles that we adopt and that we learn to adopt, whether we know the names of them or not. We're going to communicate aggressively, passively or assertively and aggressive, doesn't need much of an explanation. We all know what aggression is and we all know what aggression sounds like when somebody tries to steamroll you and doesn't really behave as if they're open to any new ideas or new concepts or new arguments and just want to shove theirs down your throat. Passive being the opposite of that, where you're just, you're more open to thoughts and ideas coming from outside than you are to your own ideas and thoughts coming from inside. And then the balance that works in most situations and I like that.
Charles:She does make a point to say there are sometimes in dangerous situations where passive communication or aggressive communication is the best fit for getting out of the situation that you're in, but for the most part, assertive communication style is the sweet spot where, when you have flexible boundaries, you're open to your own thoughts and ideas. You're open to the thoughts and ideas of others, but your interest primarily is in your own safety, your own health, and but secondarily you also consider the safety and health of others.
Dan:That's where the assertive style will find its way to be your dominant communication modality. Yeah, if you think about the way we define the word, assertive is when you assert yourself, you're valuing yourself first, and it's not to the detriment or the exclusion of what other people are valuing or is important to them.
Charles:But you aren not where, whereas if you were aggressive, you're probably diminishing anything that's not coming out of your mouth exactly yeah, as I was driving over today, I was thinking about this, like the question popped up in my head of is there something inherent with setting boundaries that is threatening to your relationships?
Charles:And I guess the answer is maybe it depends on the relationship. What's more threatening to the relationship is the other person saying I am not going to respect your boundaries. That's where the actual threat is. So, when it comes down to it, saying I value your health and safety and I also value my health and safety, and my boundary is the line where I can value both of those things. However, if your response to my boundary results in me having to choose between my health and safety and your health and safety, my health and safety is going to win and indirectly it could threaten the relationship setting that boundary. But it really only becomes a threat if the other person is just not willing or able to respect the boundary, and then it's ultimately their reaction to the boundary that threatens the relationship, not your choice in setting the boundary.
Dan:And I think we all have been in the situation where we let our amygdala go crazy, our primitive brain, and make assumptions about how they're going to react if we were to uphold one of our boundaries. And potentially it's a worst case scenario oh my God, if I uphold this boundary, the relationship's over. They're not going to, it's going to be the end of the relationship. And a lot of times I have to find myself pulling, pulling myself back a little bit, going listen, you know, you're not asking for anything outrageous here, you're, but you are communicating about her, and I think that's what this book is for. Right Is is for people like us where we're a little concerned about how we might come across when we enforce the boundaries that that we're asking for, and and just having that courage to communicate it boundaries that that we're asking for, and and just having that courage to communicate it.
Charles:And and also, ultimately, from here the, the technique and the style of communicating it in a way that is a little bit more comfortable and might be a little bit easier for somebody else to to swap and, as I've shared before, I think, my own difficulties with setting these boundaries that I tend to, whether it's true or not I feel tied to the version of masculinity that I practice is. It is very important and, I would argue, too important for me sometimes to come across as I'm the easygoing guy, I'm the adaptable guy, I can roll with anything, nothing's a big deal, everything's fine and, as a result, it gets very difficult to draw a line in the sand that says no, I'm not okay with anything. On this side of the line it's a problem. And if you're going to continue relating to me, I need you to take this into account and, yeah, because those two things go.
Charles:they're opposed to each other. Being the cool, easygoing guy who's cool with anything is in conflict with the. There are certain behaviors I won't accept and if you want to continue relating to me, you have to understand that and act accordingly. It's some very conflicting yeah ideas, at least in my own head, and it's hard to.
Dan:It's hard to be both of those people for sure I see for myself whenever I've expressed a preference, sometimes not even really a boundary. A lot of times when I was a kid, I remember being teased or made fun of oh look, who's so picky? Or just it's something different from what the group may have wanted. And so I know I at times I may have been teased for or picked on, and not anything where I go home and cry about it, but just little comments from people that are your friends and things like that, innocent as they thought they might be. Oh, you're being being picky. Why are you so x or different? Why are you being so different? Because when I expressed a boundary, and yeah, that's stuck with me and yeah, I have a tendency now to like also.
Dan:And then you see the guys who are cool and calm and they can, they roll with anything all the time. Maybe they are cool with it, maybe they've got boundaries that they're afraid to express, and so they're. They've got a front. Now you don't know what. All I know is that by not expressing it, it's been worse for me, because then I build up resentment towards people and stuff like that Instead of going.
Dan:I don't care what you think what this. I'm not asking you for anything outrageous. I'm going to do this regardless. I think ultimately you can get more respect by doing that, but not that it's an easy thing to do.
Charles:No, you definitely can. But if you've been and most of us come by this honestly where it's like if you've been told implicitly or explicitly your needs don't matter, you're or you're asking for too much, yeah, and yeah, if you're conditioned that, through your primary caregivers, that the world's response to your needs are either that's too much or you're not going to get that boy, you might as well just act cool about not getting it instead of throwing a big stink about not getting it because either way you're not going to get it exactly right, yeah, so you might as well act cool about it. No matter how you act, it's not going to change the ultimate outcome, which is your needs don't matter, we're going to act like your needs don't, yeah. That's where a lot of that comes from, where I don't want to.
Charles:If I believe I live in a world where my needs don't matter, am I going to just keep banging my forehead against the concrete wall, demanding that my needs get met, even though I secretly know they never will? Or do I just act? Yeah, I don't have any needs, it's fine, everything's cool. Where it is easier to be legitimately cool and easygoing, if your experience tells you, when I do have a hard boundary or a need that I absolutely need to get met. All I have to do is bring it up and people will respond by meeting it. When you've got that confidence that bringing it up and talking about it actually works, then you can have this attitude of I'll just bring up the important stuff and when I do it'll get dealt with.
Dan:But here's the thing is, who's to say what's important and not important? I am, but nobody. But what I'm saying? If I'm healthy, I am. But here's, this is where it could be dangerous. Oh, this boundary really. I know I've fallen in this where I'd be like, oh, this isn't really a make or break boundary kind of thing. Then, before you know it, you start to feel a little more and more resentful towards another person because it was more important than you talked yourself into believing. So I've gone down a rabbit hole where I've been like, oh well, this one's okay, and when it's really important, then I'll set my, I said my and I'll say something and I'll communicate it. But a lot of times I underestimate how important it actually is to me and I am probably missing an opportunity for somebody to either step up and adapt and honor that or run the risk of potentially losing that person as a friend or relationship and needing to find somebody else, which is a whole nother ball of whack.
Charles:Right, it's funny, I actually. It looks like a situation where a little bit of black and white thinking might actually be helpful. In this way, everything that you want, need or desire from the people in your life, it's either a boundary that you're willing to plant, the flag that says either I get this or else, or it's a request, it's a preference, it's one of those two, and being able to be honest with yourself and know what it takes to figure out which one it is seems like it would make a lot of these problems go away If you can really look at it and say okay, this is a deal breaker for me. I absolutely 100% need this to be responded to, dealt with whatever, or you know, I guess, but in the grand scheme of things, I'm already getting my actual needs met. So this isn't a need, this is a want, or this is a want.
Dan:So I think, in either case, it's important to communicate it.
Charles:Yeah, I do too Right and label it both to yourself and the other person, right. Yeah, this is not a heart, right? Label it both to yourself and the other person Right?
Dan:Yeah, this is not a hard right. This is something I prefer. I'm open to compromise.
Charles:You would get to say right now this feels like a preference, so I'm going to communicate it to you as a preference. If, over a long period of time, you refuse to meet this want of mine, we might need to revisit this down the road and it might become a need where I have to say okay, I tried to roll with this as best I could for as long as I could. Now it's clear to me that this is something I need from you.
Dan:Yeah, and that could all be whether they're willing to compromise on that offer. Hey, this is a request right now. I understand this might not jive with whatever your perspective is and I'm open to other ideas, but if those other ideas never come, or there's no effort or, like you said, you never get to that compromise, you never get to that idea. Long enough time goes by.
Charles:It could turn into something a little bit more and I think it's okay to start with something as open, as things don't feel exactly the way that I'd like them to feel right now, what can we do to move in the direction of where I'd like them to be or where I'd like to feel like they are, and then just work your way from there, and then, if you've got a partner who's healthy and committed, then you guys can figure this out together. Healthy and committed, then you guys can figure this out together. But starting with the I don't. I don't feel a hundred percent with where things are right now or how things are going, and so I'd like to, I'd like to share as much as I figured out with you right now, and then let's see where we can go from here, but not that I've ever started that conversation but I'd like to.
Dan:Oh yeah, I have the best of intentions and I talked to my girlfriend about this, about trying to have like regular check-ins with how things are going in the relationship. Not bad stuff, Just a checker, like a neutral type of thing hey, what's going well, what's not going well, type of thing. And she was a little resistant to doing a regularly scheduled thing but I feel. But she was open to doing it in the moment that I brought it up and we both took the love languages test, helped each other understand each other a little bit more and that was great. We talked a little bit and that kind of opened the door to say, yeah, this is great, but you know what? I really I'd like it if you did this a little bit more or a little bit less. So I think I'm going to be trying to get into a practice of just check-ins so that that we talk about things when things are wrong or when things are perfect.
Charles:That's a yeah, that's a great idea To try to facilitate this type of yeah, because, boy, trying to do that, trying to get into any kind of troubleshooting when you're in the middle of a conflict, seems to be nearly impossible At least it has for me. Yeah, because of defensiveness and stuff that I'm talking about myself, yeah, it's hard to it's hard to commit to those regularly scheduled check-ins. I had the thought, while you were mentioning, that if you could somehow ritualize it a little bit where, same time, same place, you go to the same cafe, you go to the same park bench, whatever, and just sandwich it with some fun stuff before and after, oh, yeah, that's a great idea. I like that. Yeah, I've had those.
Charles:I've talked about having those scheduled check-ins in previous relationships and it's hard to go through it when things feel okay, today we're not having any problems today having any problems today, so why do I want to risk this nice day we're currently having with bringing up hey, is anything bothering you? Discussion? Because what if the answer is yes? And what if it's something that I get defensive about?
Dan:or yeah, yeah, it's the way I look at it is if we can do that where it's. To me, that's a little bit being more proactive than reactive. And I know for myself as well that if it gets to the point of where I'm bringing up something, that's a problem, it's already an emotional hot point because I'm bringing it up, versus if we had a scheduled check-in, it may not have gotten to that point yet and I might feel a little bit more open to sharing.
Dan:Hey, this is bothering me, not like this is driving me nuts, it's more of a yeah, I uh yeah a neutral way to get ahead of the problem, and then for me anyway, my I'm a lot less likely to have emotions clouding my brain and my mouth when I'm trying to say things.
Charles:Yeah, I think and again, that's where you can, if you can get your partner to agree to it. Every day or every week, or every other week. This time, this place, we're going to have this conversation and neither of us is allowed to brush anything under the rug or pretend like every something's okay. That's not okay, then it does let some of the pressure off where it's okay. We've both committed to having this meeting and being honest, and even if you want to have an outline of how are things going with our sex life, with our financial life, with our oh, I like that with whatever all these different facets, whatever ones you come up with, yeah, it's, I'm. We're going to ask each other about all of these areas, whether we feel like it or not that you'd have like that wheel of life, right?
Dan:The different areas might be a good way to come up with topics to talk about.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:Relationships, family, friends, work.
Charles:Yeah, I think that's a good idea, but it look, I've been in relationships that would have benefited from doing that, but it's hard to implement and it's hard to follow through on, because, especially if there are any areas of the relationship that you're not so sure that it's going or you lack confidence or support. Yeah, I get it.
Dan:It's like are you opening up this wound or this can of worms? Yeah, better by your analogy.
Charles:Yeah, it's rough, so, but I think it's ultimately good if you can get yourself to do it. All right, let's talk about some more about communication. She mentions four levels. Number one what we mean to say, the idea that you're trying to express what we actually say. Are you able to, are you comfortable and are you willing and are you able to actually turn the things that you're feeling and thinking into words, where sometimes that's not easy?
Dan:and are you doing it accurately, between what you're thinking right and the words you're choosing? Yes, we'll have slightly different definitions of what some words mean and feelings attached to them.
Charles:So yeah and uh yeah, being able to communicate that in a way of and not you know, there's also, or can be, an instinct to try to back off of the harsh or potentially harsh things that you're feeling or thinking and try to water it down so much that it's no longer able to express the actual idea in your head because you're so concerned about the blowback, the reaction, whatever that in your efforts to be, you're so concerned about the blowback, the reaction, whatever that, in your efforts to be, you're probably from a place of kindness and compassion. You want to try to deliver this in a way that's not going to hurt somebody, but you're so afraid of coming across the wrong way that you water it down to the point where you're no longer actually saying anything, and I've certainly done that. What the other person here is just because you said it doesn't mean that they heard it without any filter. So that's the other thing. Even when you take, you go to as much effort as you can to say it directly. Yet kindly, look there there could be something in their history where someone else used the same word that you used and it set them off because it turned into a big fight for them. And even if this is baggage that does not have your name on the luggage tag, it's still baggage and you don't know what they might filter it.
Charles:And then the other level, beyond that, is what the other person thinks. You mean, she offers the example. Even if you said anything for dinner is fine, and you actually meant anything for dinner is fine, your partner may think that, okay, they're saying that, but they have some hidden agenda where they really want me to pick their favorite restaurant, because we've eaten my favorite restaurant three weeks in a row and now, if I don't pick, I'd love to eat there for the fourth week in a row. But if I don't pick their favorite restaurant, they're gonna think that I'm a dick, so there. So there could be some whole thing like that going on in the background that you have no idea about. And when you're making an effort to be accommodating, sometimes it can be helpful to say listen, I'm going to tell you any. You know the places I like to eat. It's a long list. Any of them would be absolutely fine, and I legitimately mean it. You can pick anything and I'll be just excited about option A, option B or option C.
Dan:Look at how many words that took Exactly, instead of just anything's fine, and that's why I think we've run into problems is because we're looking for shortcuts all the time. We want to save energy. We want it and literally it's such a minor thing, but the more words, the more times we have to move our mouth and that certain area. That takes thinking, that takes energy. Our brain uses a lot of energy and we are wired to save energy. So, yeah, we are going to tend to take the easier route, unless there's a strong enough reason why to put that energy and that time into communicating and maybe over communicating at least in our mind we feel. We might feel like we're over communicating, but it it's. I think, if you do it the right way, it's going to provide a little bit more clarity and less problems.
Charles:Yeah, and the other thing is, try to be open to noticing reactions, noticing nonverbal cues and if you say something that you perceive to be quote, unquote, fine, direct, kind, and somebody has a reaction to it, be willing to say okay, listen, I tried to express something just now in a way that was completely direct and completely kind and your reaction is telling me you took it as neither of those things. So what's going on?
Dan:Yeah, you need to really practice your active listening. So you're looking at their facial expressions, their body language, and then the other piece of that is clarifying, saying hey, it sounds like you're saying this, is that accurate?
Charles:Yeah, yeah, being able to repeat or sum up the other person's position in a way that they will give you full sign off on. They will say, yes, you got it exactly right. That's exactly what I'm thinking it's like until and I've tried this with even just having political arguments with my friends If you can get to the point where you and I are having an argument about vaccines or abortion or whatever it is, and we both get to the point where you say, charles, yes, you restated my opinion exactly as I would say it, you seem to really know where I'm coming from and I can say the same to you. Now there's at least a chance we can have a fruitful argument, debate, discussion about the topic at hand, Because at no point am I strawmanning or recasting your argument in a way that's easier for me to score points and win the victory and I think not only does it make sense logically to do that so that we both understand each other, but I think it also shows a sign of respect for the other person.
Dan:Yeah, and I think as soon as you make another person feel like they're understood thank you, steven cubby. Yeah, you will. I think that goes a long way in terms of keeping the emotion that open when it comes to sensitive topics, but also I think it brings people a little closer together, going oh, he or she does care exactly.
Charles:Yeah, oh, this is a person who cares about what I'm experiencing when I'm thinking about whatever. She gives a couple examples here. I want to get too bogged down in them and I also disagree with the way that she handles some of these. And let's let me, let's focus on that because I, like I said, I don't want to get bogged down. But the first example how about sushi for dinner? One way to respond to that is no, and I think we would agree that's probably not the best way to respond.
Charles:The second way is I'm really in the mood for a hamburger. I'd like to go there if you're interested, or we could grab takeout from both places and then we can both get exactly what we're feeling for. I don't like that one either, because I said how about sushi for dinner? And in your effort to be understanding and empathetic and kind, you didn't actually address what I said, and I'm not a fan of that at all. If I say, how about sushi for dinner, I want you to say, eh, not feeling it it, or maybe we go to a place that has sushi and something else, but going straight to, I'm really in the mood for a burger. I just don't like it. It rubs.
Dan:It rubs me the wrong way and and me too, and I think for me, it's the fact that, because you didn't even acknowledge something that I said, did you understand what I said? Did you take the time to process the words that are coming out of my mouth, right? Did you did it even register with you, right, and did you even consider it? Or even you don't know?
Charles:Why is Dr Faith Harper using these two examples of no or? I'm really in the mood for a burger where, to you and me, it seems so clear that there is a better answer of no thanks, I'm not feeling sushi. How about a burger that there's a better answer of no thanks, I'm not feeling sushi. How about a burger? That seems so much?
Dan:immeasurably better to me. I mean, and I'll get around the doctor, get around the podcast and dig into that, because that's yeah, like I hate where you know how much I hate guests, but yeah.
Charles:So then she offers another example that's even more extreme, about a sexual encounter person. One says how about I gag you and tie you up and we have sex tonight? The options are absolutely not, or what I would really like to explore is prostate stimulation, and my reaction is the same. But what about the thing I asked for? Why?
Dan:don't you respond to the thing I asked for?
Charles:yeah, I think it's a basic level of respect, right, it's just acknowledgement to me, but it seems like she's trying to teach some sort of a conflict resolution method that starts with don't respond to the thing that the person actually asked you. Yeah, do this other thing instead, and I don't understand where that comes from.
Charles:I feel like there's there's a little missing link there, uh so let me look at the okay, the second option opens up a completely different conversation and negotiation options. But not all what we want communications are sushi and hamburgers. And then she goes on to the second one. That, yeah, obviously more vulnerability, harder to articulate I get that, but I yeah. I just don't understand why it can't, why the redirection, which I'm completely fine with, why it can't start with a maybe?
Dan:I heard what you said and and I have a conflicting opinion or desire here's an idea maybe the avatar, the person that she's thinking of, who would be responding, isn't at that level yet, and it's the bare minimum of an acceptable answer at this point, and it's not somebody who is in the ideal situation and they're responding in an ideal way, so maybe they need they have their own shit to work on and this is like a bare minimum response that's acceptable yeah, I don't know, I get that.
Charles:I just it feels you can't, from the position of both consideration and clarity and directness, if I, if I suggest something you that you don't want, start with I don't want that, but or that doesn't sound great, however, but yeah, for some reason it just sticks in my craw. You got to start with. Pretend like I said something to you and you heard it and you have an opinion on it and then let's move on to the thing that you want.
Dan:Pretend that you, that something that comes out of my mouth is important to you. Show me that you care.
Charles:And again, from my perspective, show me that you believe I can handle hearing a no. That too, because I promise I can handle hearing a no. And if you try to treat me with these kid gloves of I'm not going to give you a direct no cause I don't know how you might react to it Then, yeah, I am immediately going to get defensive, like why don't you think I can handle hearing yeses or nos or buts or whatever? Again, I don't know it drives me crazy, but anyway, okay, I don't know it drives me crazy, but anyway okay.
Charles:Communicating with through your conflicts and disagreements. She mentions a tool of BIF, b-i-f-f. Your responses to deescalate can be brief, informative, friendly and firm. And, yes, I'm a big believer in responding that way to as many things as you can respond that way to being brief, informative, informative, friendly and firm is how you should respond to almost anything, whether there's already a conflict or not. Because, again, I find, if I ask you to go to sushi or to tie you up tonight when we're in bed, responding to me in a way that is brief, informative, friendly and firm sounds perfect to even if we're not in a conflict situation. And, yeah, I would say, consider adopting that as your default for all communication? Yeah, when somebody says I want this thing of you, always respond in a way that is brief, informative, friendly and firm.
Dan:Even just remembering what BIF stands for is a lot of work. Now you're asking people to. That's not an easy. You got to practice that a lot yes, I, I would across that.
Charles:The other thing she recommends is, especially when you're in a situation that is already feeling like a conflict of some sort, avoid the three a's advice, admonishment and apologies. Advice is't offer. We've talked about it before. Unsolicited advice is going to be my favorite flavor of ice cream, the vibe and the relationship killer. Don't just throw out there to tell somebody hey, here's what I would do if I were you, if they didn't ask you about it. Admonishment, similarly, is don't say you did this the wrong way either, especially if it's not a fairly formal request on their part of hey, I feel like this didn't go as well as it could have. What do you think I could have handled differently If somebody's not giving you that kind of a request? Keep your admonishments to yourself. And then, finally, the apologies where yeah, if you're inments to yourself. And then, finally, the apologies where, yeah, if you're in it with somebody and you feel the temperature rising a little bit.
Charles:A heartfelt apology when two people are calm is a great idea, but when you're activated and the other person feels activated, there's a good chance, because we covered in the the Love Languages book, so many of us the apology that we feel we want to give by instinct is usually the wrong kind of apology, because usually bundled up with that apology is some measure of distancing and protection and perhaps excuses, so that apology ends up coming across in a way that makes things better or makes things worse, not better. So it's very important to not shoot from the hip and give a reactionary apology in the middle. You're in the middle of a high stress situation because you could either offer an apology that's not really an apology, like I'm sorry you were offended, yeah, being and the other thing you could do is take on too much ownership and apologize for things that absolutely are not your fault Sorry that the I'm sorry that the freezer was turned off and all the food got spoiled on a day that you weren't even home or at your job or something like something that where you were a factor in the bad thing happening. So why are you offering an apology for it? It's one thing to say I'm sorry that happened for you, I'm sorry you had to deal with that inconvenient situation, I'm sorry that yeah thing, rough things happen sometimes.
Charles:Oh, I'm so sorry that the situation got ruined that I had absolutely nothing to do with. Yeah, you know there's no good way to offer that kind of apology, because either going to be like you're clearly apologizing for something that you're not involved in or you're apologizing for something in such a defensive way that it's not going to feel like an apology anyway. So just be careful about offering apologies when temperatures are high and you're feeling attacked and the other person is feeling like you let them down when you actually didn't. Just take a step back and maybe offer the apology in an hour or a day when you both calm down and figured out that you've got something to be sorry for.
Dan:Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, You're not going to be clear. It gets complicated, as you just said. Absolutely, I try to. I'm trying to switch over from I'm sorry to I feel bad, when like to try to show empathy instead of sorry. I'm sorry that happened to you, Even though I didn't have anything to do with it. I feel bad that you ran into, got a flat tire or whatever that is, even though you didn't slash the tires right.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:So if that might help a little bit, if you feel the urge to say something in the heat of the moment, I feel bad, this happened or whatever. But you still can get into trouble if you're, if the emotions are running high and your mind is a little clunky yeah, it's tough because what you're essentially doing is not saying I apologize for, but you're saying you have my condolences for.
Charles:Yeah, now is it a hard need to be able to say, because the person may feel like they may be confused about the details.
Dan:They think you had. You need to take responsibility for it. Now you blew yourself up because you're saying I feel my condolences, rather than what they want, which is an actual apology.
Charles:Yeah right.
Dan:It's getting better.
Charles:Listen people. People may want apologies from you during times that you're not in the wrong, during times that you're not in the wrong, and so all they get all they're entitled to are is your empathy and your condolences, but they're not entitled to your apology and being able to keep straight on that when you're in the middle of the conflict. Yeah, it'd be very tough. In personal relationships, you should be in a position where you can say okay, something happened and you have a right to be upset about the thing that happened, but. But we need to take a little bit of time before we try to figure out and get to the bottom of what caused this. Who caused this? Who should be sorry, any of that stuff. So let's take a break and come back to this later. In work situations, you might not have the freedom or flexibility to do that, and so it can be a little tougher.
Dan:But yeah, and even in a personal relationship that can be tough. If the other person, the emotions are running hot and at least you had the wherewithal to say, hey, let's take a break, they may not want to, they may want to keep pushing, and then that's, and then you can absolutely get reescalated. And so I've been in that situation where it's really difficult if one person is on a different page, you know emotionally being triggered at that moment than you are. So, yeah, I think, practice and get really good at being able to say, hey, look, we will come back to this. Now is not the time I'm not in a position, and I always turn on myself and I say, look, whenever I'm not feeling well, I don't make good decisions. And so, whether it's my blood sugar levels, how tired I am, how tired you are, how hungry you are, I can use those for sure, absolutely Listen, hangry. The whole Snickers commercial People get hangry. Those are times when you're not going to make good decisions hangry.
Charles:Those are times when you're not going to make good decisions. Yeah, I think figuring out a good way to say something along the lines of I am not opposed to giving the situation a lot more thought and offering a sincere apology if one is warranted, but I'm not ready to make that call right now. Yeah, so give me some time. Yeah, and I won't just drop this, I won't just forget about it, but I can't give you what you want from me right now yeah, and it's about you, then it's not.
Dan:You know exactly you're having a problem too.
Charles:Yeah, it's not like you don't deserve my apology, like just like I can't do it right now, I'm unable to. I'd like to, I'd like to after, I'd like to reflect on this and come back to you with something that's going to be sincere and meaningful, but I can't do that right now yeah, I try to say look, it's not about you.
Dan:You may be clear, you may be able to figure something out. Right now I can't. I'm not gonna make the best decision for myself and I think most of the time, if they care about you at least a little bit, they'll give you that space.
Charles:I think so too. Okay, a couple more tricks that she has. Where are you stuck with somebody who's pushing your last button? One of the tricks that she references is the pane of glass trick, where she imagines a clear plane of glass between herself and the other person and she can hear and see them, but their emotional bs stops at the glass. We talked about this last week, and the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. It's okay, so I just you're. I'm getting all the impact for everything that's going on, but I can't smell you, so that's the only thing you would be able to do. It's like all your body language is coming your words, your body language, your attitude, but I'm going to pretend like your attitude stops at the glass.
Dan:Yeah, I'm not that good at make-believe, so this would not be of any value to me that would basically here's my thought is what she just described would completely eliminate any type of therapy that's done over zoom or remote hall. Because how right? That's basically what's separating us, is that glass? Yeah, and so like, how would?
Charles:you she's setting this up for if you're overly empathic, maybe you could.
Dan:But I don't know. I think it needs to be a stronger boundary to separate people in order to get what she's talking about. Yeah, achieve what she's talking about, right go outside.
Charles:We'll talk through the, we'll talk through the bedroom door. So I can't see you roll. I can't see you roll your eyes at me what is it?
Dan:the? That dating show where basically meet each other in the pods and they don't see each other. Love is blind.
Charles:Love is blind that might work, because the original dating game was like that too. They have the wall, so you can hear somebody.
Dan:You can't see them.
Charles:You can't see them, but you can hear them yeah, I don't know, maybe this works for some people. It would not work for for me I like the other method better, the gray rock method, where basically you just turn yourself into. The phrase that Adam Kroll used to use was and I think he got it from his friend Mark Geragos, who's a lawyer an empty bag. Basically, nobody's looking to sue you If just by looking at you they could tell you have no money. If somebody is looking to activate you emotionally and get into some chaos with you, if your reaction to it is completely unfulfilling.
Charles:She gives the reference of I think it was her uncle that was commenting, or her grandparent commenting on her weight and saying you ain't got no wrists Meaning, I assume, meaning she had plump hands and a plump arm, and they just went into each other. Yeah, her reaction number one that's a shitty thing to say to anybody, much less your own grandkid, and never address somebody. There's never a good reason to spontaneously bring up somebody's waiter appearance, except maybe you look nice today, but right, anything much past that gets into the realm of creepy. Um, so her response was okay and one of the things that renata has certainly earned her a fee on for the years and years I've been going to her as a therapist. Is she taught me the value of okay? Where, without investing anything else in it, there's a way that you can say I acknowledge that I heard the noise you just made without anything else tied to?
Charles:it and just saying okay helps when, if that person is looking to mine you for an emotional reaction that they can feed off of and you guys can both get more and more upset until because, again, like we talked with high conflict personalities, there are some people that are uncomfortable with a low chaos, low conflict situation and so to get comfortable, they need to ramp both of those up. And if somebody is trying to bait you into that and all you give them is an okay and maybe a shoulder shrug, they're gonna be like okay, I guess I got.
Dan:I know what I got. If I sell right, I know what to do with this. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good. I like that, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take that and try to remember it yeah, and just there, there may be follow-ups.
Charles:If somebody says something to you and you just say, okay, okay, what? Okay, I heard you and what do you mean? You heard me. You just said something I want you to know. I heard exactly what you said and I've you could go as far down as as you want to go. They keep pushing. You could just keep it getting drier and drier.
Dan:Give up, walk away, leave you alone, whatever I can see, though, that you could be give you care. You gotta be careful there, because I could see them getting more and more frustrated, which is ramping their emotions up more and more, and so they might be interested in a weird way of getting ramped up. Just you, stonewalling them with the okay could make them, could ultimately, in a weird way, give them what they want but for me, in the back of my mind, they're creating it all internal.
Charles:That's the thing you're not really partnering with them to create this disaster together.
Dan:Yeah, my next step is thinking I'm going to physically move myself out of the room. Yeah, if I see them getting ramped up like that, yeah, and, yeah, I've been in a position where it's okay.
Charles:if my okay isn't what you want, what is it that you want from me? You can ask that question too, and I don't know that that would really be what she's, but I'm okay with saying what response are you looking for?
Dan:Yeah, that's a great question.
Charles:That's great. They're never going to say I want you to get just as mad as I feel right now. That's never going to be what they tell you. I just want Act like you care. Okay, what does that look like? And eventually you know. Just keep asking the questions. Just keep asking questions, because it will become if what they really are.
Charles:If they're looking to solve the problem, then they'll answer your questions with information that you can actually use to help them solve the problem. That's a great point. And if they don't want to solve the problem, then they're just going to keep pushing with and they want a reaction out of you. Yeah, they're just going to keep pushing with and they want a reaction out of you. Yeah, they're going to keep saying things that would lead you to react. And then, by all means, at any point, you can say okay, listen, I, I don't feel like you're looking to get to the bottom of a problem, so I'm going to head out, but I'll be back in an hour and we can get into this again if you want to.
Charles:And yeah, the whole thing is, it's such a balancing act between assuming this is a person either you care about, or it's your boss, or it's somebody that you have to have. You can't just walk out of their life forever and never talk to them again. Then it is a balancing act between I care enough about this to talk to you, but I'm also, when you start acting like a subject of an experiment, I'm going to start acting like a scientist. Interesting, when would you start giving me vibes of I'm having an episode, I'm having an experience right now that is not in proportion to what's actually going on?
Charles:As you see it, there's like, okay, then I'm going to put on my scientist hat and I'm going to try to get to the get to. What's the root cause here, what's trying to understand what's going on for you? How can we you and I both get on the same page here? And for me to do that, I'm going to have to be dispassionate, I'm going to have to be curious and I'm gonna have to sort of help you answer the questions that you need to answer, so you and I can reach some common ground about what it is that you're looking for, what I'm willing to deliver it's interesting.
Dan:We went down this path, but I've never been in that situation, like to that extreme, have you. I like talking about it because now I feel prepared, just in case it were to ever happen. Oh, I've been on both sides of it oh really, oh yeah.
Charles:I've been the person that was riled up and didn't want to, didn't want to work toward a solution because I was having an emotional experience, okay, and I've been the person who's and it was basically like not giving you any information.
Charles:They were fairly stoic and okay, or they were trying to figure out what was going on with me. But I can't tell you what's going on with me because I don't exactly know. But I know I'm freaking out right now. Yeah, I've been on both and I've been on the other side where it's like, okay, something that feels like nothing to me has just happened and you're having a freaking meltdown over it.
Charles:So I gotta take a, I gotta detach a little bit and try to help get to the bottom of what's bothering you so much so that I can figure out is it something I can help with or something I need to walk away from? Okay? So, yeah, I've been on both sides, all right. Yeah, I prefer being on the dispassionate scientist side because being on the other side and it gives me a little bit of empathy for people when they are on the other side, cause, yeah, I know what it's like to feel like. I understand exactly what's going on here. This is something that you should be upset about too, and I'm the only one upset and you're not upset and you're making you just by acting normal.
Dan:You're making me feel more abnormal. It's bringing me out.
Charles:It's a very it's a very frustrating position to be in, and I've been like I've definitely been on both sides, and being on the irrational, emotional side is not a place that I'm comfortable being, and I'm trying to learn ways to not get there and by jumping into the other, by getting better at working from the other side, I think it is a good way to avoid getting stuck in that other place, because that place is no fun for anybody.
Dan:Yeah, I see it. Now that you talk about it and describe it that way, I can see. Yeah, I've been definitely on the emotional, rational side at times, but the other person wasn't trying to figure out, they were just trying to detach without the curiosity, or not even detached, they were just having their own emotional. Okay, I got and it was just.
Charles:It just escalated into a unproductive argument yeah, I like the gray rock method if you could pull it off, but I think there's also a way that you can do that and still be in there with them. And again, that's just by asking questions and trying to. But look if, if somebody gets too far in their emotional and in their confrontational and in their reactive that you feel like, okay, there's no calm in them. They don't want to be calmed down right now. I've used every tool that I have to calm somebody down. I've used BIF, I've avoided the three A's, I threw out as many okays as I could, I asked them what they were looking for, what they were feeling, and despite all that, they still just want to get ramped up.
Charles:Then it's time to go for a walk or take a break or clock out or do whatever you can do to get out of that situation and give them some time. Because, like we've talked about, being angry is something that takes work. You have to keep recommitting to being angry every what. Is it seven seconds or 10 seconds or whatever? There's some period of time where it's like you've got to refresh those angry thoughts, otherwise the anger will start to dissipate, and so certainly a 20 minute, one hour walk around the block is usually enough time to bring it down a notch or two, and so you may be in a position where that's what you have to do. That's all you got left.
Charles:I want to talk real quick about justifying your boundaries, and she went into this in a way that I feel like she went a little bit deep and she also went a little too heavy in the Shenpa and was it Shenpa and some other word, some Tibetan word, but Shenlock and Shenpa? But here's what I'll say. You don't have to justify your boundaries to anybody pretty much ever but you do run the risk of paying the price of ending the relationship. If you're not willing to explain why you're setting a boundary and you're willing to end or write off the relationship, then have at it. That's fine. But if you're setting a boundary with someone that you care about them being in your life, they may need some not necessarily justification, but explanation of hey, here's where I'm coming from, here's why this is so important to me, here's why this matters, and in a good relationship, offering that explanation will make them more likely, not less likely, to respect your boundary.
Dan:Yeah, it's also bringing them closer to you because you are revealing a vulnerable.
Charles:Yeah, exactly, I'm going to tell you the story of how I got to the point where this thing matters so much to me, and if you're willing to tell the story of how you got to that point, then either they're going to respect that and want to know more and want to help understand where you're coming from, or they're going to be like I don't't. Yeah, this makes me uncomfortable, I don't know that.
Dan:I want this anymore either way, you benefit because you're practicing getting comfortable expressing that. So, even if that is not the person that you're going to end up with in terms of relationship, might make it easier. The next time?
Charles:yeah, for sure. And so again, I would say you don't owe people justifications or explanations of your boundaries, you can just state it. And she offers the example of somebody who wants to borrow your car. You can say no. You can say no, I'm not comfortable with you borrowing my car. You can say I see that you are upset by my answer and I respect that, but I'm not going to lend you my car or my favorite that she offers, which applies to every situation. Hear them out and then say be that as it may, my answer is still no, and I really like that. Again, when, if somebody cares about you and somebody wants a deeper, more meaningful connection with you, then when something is bothering you or uncomfortable enough that you need to state your request or your boundary, their response is going to be curiosity. Tell me more about how not having this need met in the past has affected you. Tell me more about how you'd like to see me deliver on this. They should have that kind of a reaction.
Dan:And if they don't like what you just said was to be it as it may. That shows that you care about them, that you understood what they said. You took the time. Which kind of what we just talked about before right is? You took the time to consider what they said, maybe restate what they said. So you said that you really need my car to be able to make it to work. I'll be that as it may. I substantially know that the thing right, you're reiterating, restating. So I think that will go a long way to moving the conversation forward and it could.
Charles:It could go in a lot of different ways. I understand you need a way to get to work. I'm not going to lend you my car. I got all this uber credit though, so you can have some of those, at least for today above and beyond right there.
Charles:Yeah, there may be something you're giving a solution, another option, maybe something within your power that you feel completely comfortable with. You could have a very legitimate reason for not wanting to lend them your car, but it might not be any skin off your nose at all to let them have some of your points or whatever, and let them use that to at least buy them another 24 hours to figure out another solution to the problem. You're not even obligated to do that. All you're obligated to as a matter of basic courtesy is, if someone asks you a question, give them a yes or a no, right, and then you don't even have to do that if you don't want to, but I would say, just out of courtesy, you should do that.
Dan:Yeah, to make it a little bit easier if you're not used to doing that, not realizing that no was a plea sentence. Yeah, I've heard different techniques where they call it yes, no, yes. It's not really. Yes, no, yes, but it's like a acknowledge the person's situation firmly, decline it right then offer another alternative to them. Doesn't have to be an alternative that you're providing. Hey, have you looked into discounts from lyft or whatever? That might be kind of?
Charles:yeah, and you can give them the option like. I understand your situation. Be that as it may, you can't borrow my car. I am happy to try to brainstorm some other solutions that don't involve you borrowing my car. Would you like my help? Right, or yeah? Is there somebody else you want to? You just want to get off the phone so you could ask somebody else. So so I understand.
Dan:Yeah, I think that's a great way of balancing your own boundaries with still maintaining a friendship and a positive relationship, and if they're not cool with that, then you really need to, and you went out of your way to do that. Yes, maybe your picker is off. Maybe you're not taking the right people to hang out with, right. Yeah, or maybe your picker was fine.
Charles:They changed, or you've just outgrown the relationship. There's a lot of possible reasons why this may not be a great matchup any longer, even though maybe it used to be fine. And yeah, those are all good possibilities. Okay, I think we're good for that chapter. The next one that we're going to discuss is how do you respect other people's boundaries and let's see what else we got. Oh, holding yourself accountable for boundary violations. I think we'll put those two together. I think you'll be able to pair those two together. So, how to respect other people's and then, when you don't, when you fall short of respecting them, how can you hold yourself accountable? And I think part of that would be also how can you possibly make it up to them? So, all right, that's where we'll jump in next time. Thanks, dan, I'll talk to you again soon. Bye-bye. Hey, thanks for listening to the whole episode. We certainly appreciate it. And again, please check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom. Thanks.
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