What Do Women REALLY Want?

In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan tackle the age-old question, "What do women really want?" through the lens of John and Julie Gottman’s acclaimed relationship guide, The Man’s Guide to Women. The hosts share actionable relationship advice for men, discussing the importance of trust, emotional attunement, and how understanding women on a deeper level can foster better relationships.

Key Topics Covered:

• Understanding Women and Avoiding Common Stereotypes:
  • Charles and Dan challenge popular stereotypes around women being "unpredictable" or "difficult to understand," emphasizing that meaningful relationships require intentionality and empathy.
• Building Trustworthiness in Relationships:
  • Women desire trustworthiness, which encompasses more than honesty. Trustworthiness involves dependability, vulnerability, and a commitment to consistency—qualities that can strengthen any partnership.
• Mastering Attunement for Deeper Emotional Connection:
  • The hosts explain the ATTUNE approach (Attend, Turn Toward, Understand, Non-defensive Listening, Empathy), a method for fostering emotional intimacy. Each step helps men create a safe and supportive space for their partners.
• Overcoming Defensiveness and Embracing Emotional Vulnerability:
  • Charles and Dan candidly share their struggles with vulnerability and how men’s fear of showing emotions can hinder relationships. They encourage listeners to view emotional openness as a strength, not a weakness.
• Breaking the Cycle of Conflict and Building Intimacy:
  • The episode covers strategies for ending cycles of conflict and withdrawal in relationships. The hosts explain that empathy and understanding, rather than a desire to "fix" things, can lead to meaningful intimacy.
• Physical Presence and Attentiveness in Relationships:
  • Small gestures—like putting away distractions, making eye contact, and offering full attention—can strengthen trust and convey emotional security to a partner.

Top Takeaways and Relationship Tips for Men:

1. Develop Trustworthiness - Consistency and honesty are key. Show up as a reliable partner by honoring commitments and staying transparent.
2. Use Attunement Techniques for Lasting Connection - Apply the ATTUNE method to connect emotionally with your partner and build a resilient relationship.
3. Prioritize Listening and Empathy Over Fixing - Women want to feel heard and understood, not necessarily "fixed." Listen actively and ask questions to show you care.
4. Be Present in the Moment - Avoid distractions like phones or TV during meaningful conversations to demonstrate respect and priority.
5. Break Cycles of Conflict with Empathy - Be the first to create emotional connection, even when it’s uncomfortable, to foster closeness and intimacy.

Memorable Quotes for Reflection:

• “Trustworthiness is about more than being truthful; it’s about showing up consistently and reliably.”
• “Attunement isn’t just about hearing words—it’s about fully engaging to make your partner feel valued and understood.”
• “Our relationships thrive when we stop focusing on fixing and start focusing on understanding.”

Additional Resources:

• The Man’s Guide to Women by John and Julie Gottman for more insights into relationship dynamics.

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Women
• 14:12 Relationship Problems
• 29:30 Effective Communication in Relationships
• 36:14 Building Emotional Intelligence in Relationships
• 50:16 Understanding Emotional Intelligence in Relationships

Transcript

Charles: 0:00

Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Happy Election Day to those of you in the United States. I am recording this introduction on Tuesday, november 5th.

Charles: 0:11

In this week's episode, dan and I start reviewing the Men's Guide to Women by the Gottmans, and topics included this week are Misconceptions about Understanding Women and Gender-Based Stereotypes. The Gottmans' Approach to Helping Men Understand Women. Gottman's approach to helping men understand women. Men's motivation for understanding women, the two principal motivations being less fighting and more intimacy. The importance of trustworthiness in relationships. The cycle of connection and intimacy issues between men and women. The concept of attunement and how it fosters emotional connection. Challenges men face in dealing with emotions and vulnerability. The importance of therapy, coaching and self-care for handling our emotions. Men's general discomfort with emotional vulnerability and defensiveness. Men's struggles with perfectionism in relationships. Reflecting on the impact of early social conditioning on relationship behavior. Strategies for resolving the cycle of conflict and withdrawal in relationships and other topics. Please check out our website when you can mindfullymasculinecom. You'll see our audio and video episodes, as well as any other info we're looking to share. Thanks and enjoy.

Dan: 1:20

Hello Charles, how are you?

Charles: 1:22

I'm doing well, dan. Thanks very much. I am just about to pour myself a fresh cup of coffee from a brand new bag of coffee. I haven't tried before, so that's always exciting. I'm always on the lookout for a good breakfast blend, and this is a Disney branded breakfast blend from Joffrey's, who they make some pretty good coffee. This is good. This is a good. I like it. Nice, all right, yeah, real tasty. I'm happy with the choice there. Okay, unless you have any breaking coffee news to share let's jump into our material.

Dan: 1:58

No, no breaking coffee news today.

Charles: 2:00

Okay, fair enough, all right. So we have decided that we're going to do the man's guide to women for our next book project. We're going to start with the first chapter what do women really want? And let me say this, the Gottmans quote. Let's see, we quote a couple people here. We quote Freud, will Ferrell and Stephen Hawking. I love it. Freud, will Ferrell and Stephen Hawking, I love it All about making jokes or pithy observations about how hard it is to understand women.

Charles: 2:36

And listen, I believe jokes about how hard it is to understand women are solely the domain of sitcom writers and men who are too lazy to understand women. Because, just think about it, I am someone who believes to the amazing societies and civilizations that we have today. Right, if it was in fact true that half of our species was only acting and reacting out of pure chaos and unpredictable behavior, we would not exist anymore. We wouldn't be around if that was true. And so when people like to rely on those tropes men especially that, oh, you can never understand women. Women are crazy, women are random, women are chaos, blah, blah, blah. Okay, number one, you don't actually live your life as if that were true. And number two, if it were true, we wouldn't be around anymore.

Charles: 3:52

So you can, if you put in the work, understand what motivates most, if not all, women to the behaviors that they engage in on a daily basis, and I think this book does a great job of doing exactly that. Yeah, yes, if you're conditioned and you live in a society we're trying to figure out what makes women tick is either too difficult or you don't see it a value in it, then you're not going to do it. But there are a lot of really smart people, many of them women, who have written books that basically explain, on average, here are the kinds of things that women find important. Here are the kinds of things that motivate women and the choices that they make. You'd rather sit around the bar with a beer in your hand making jokes about how no men can understand women. Then you're not really going to pursue those resources that are available.

Dan: 4:53

Yeah, I like how Gottman opens the book and comes right out with why you should care, as a man, about understanding women and, to be honest with you, he almost simplifies it down right there in the first, second chapter, where it's not overly complicated when you think about it, and he does a great job of laying out different scenarios. But the bottom line is he's interviewed thousands of men and women and couples and they've studied them in a lab together, him and his wife, and then another couple who also, I think, co-authored this book, and so they've got years and years of experience figuring out what makes couples tick and what ticks couples off.

Charles: 5:44

Yeah.

Dan: 5:44

And at the same time he explains it why men should care. And it's because most of them, when they're interviewed, they say, hey, I want less fighting and more sex. And when you understand your partner, your wife or women, it's not that difficult to have less fighting. And when you have the less fighting you get the more sex, and I know that's pretty motivating for most men. So right then and there, right off the bat, it had my attention and I now all of a sudden not all of a sudden, but I'm very motivated to really dig in and do the work and try to get that understanding. And he does a great job right at the very beginning of the book, laying it out in really simple terms of how men typically function from little boys and how women typically function from when they're little girls, in terms of their social interactions and the differences between the two. And just that alone there was very insightful for me.

Charles: 6:48

Yeah, I like that he takes an approach to the prescriptions in this book and the generalities that I also do, which is to say listen, women have enough in common with each other that there are certain things you can learn that will very likely make your interactions with them more positive than they already are. But he also says, if what you read in this book contradicts data that he's putting in this, or what you read from this book contradicts the data that you're the woman, your life is actually telling you, that you should probably go with what she's saying rather than saying. This book I read says what you actually think or feel is this instead. That's true, that's a waste of your time and and probably her energy and annoyance with you when you try to explain to her why she's actually like the women in this book. She's not the way she thinks she is. Wow, what a recipe for disaster that is.

Dan: 7:47

Right. However, if I was in the reverse situation and my partner was coming to me and saying, hey, this is the way I think you should be, this is the way the book thinks you should be, on some level I would also be flattered and also go. You know what she cares enough to even think about this and want to make an effort to connect with me more to work on things. Yeah, maybe she didn't get it right. Maybe, as a guy, you're not getting it right. In terms of coming from this book's perspective, you make a good point.

Charles: 8:25

What can be concluded from the evidence that's available not just here are the vibes I've picked up in my own personal relationships, which is different from there's wisdom to be found in lots of things, but evidence based wisdom that comes from observation is my favorite kind of wisdom. Wisdom that comes from observation is my favorite kind of wisdom, and I appreciate that. He has gone to the effort and the expense of setting up the love lab and actually studying this with real life people and not just saying he's not just collecting all of the data that other people have created and saying here's my meta analysis of what's already out there. He's saying no, we've actually observed people in practice, watching them in their relationships, and here are the conclusions that we've been able to come to. So, that said, he starts out with what is the number one thing that women are looking for in a man, and many authors I would say would throw out a question like that and then tiptoe around the answer, and he does not do that.

Charles: 9:30

He flat out comes out and says the number one thing is trustworthiness, and then he goes on to say that's not just are you someone who lies and are you someone who cheats on your partners. Trustworthiness in the context of this book is are you a man who is who he says he is and does the things you say you're going to do, feeling safe and confident? That will let that less fighting and more sex relationship that you, that all of us mostly want, actually become a reality.

Dan: 10:18

Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me, because even when I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling upset about something, I'm not operating at my best. I'm not able to relax and enjoy other things that I normally would. And if you are making yourself vulnerable and committing to somebody, or even spending time with somebody just as a friendship, even if you're not in a committed relationship with somebody and you don't trust them now, yeah, that's an uneasy feeling, right? Or if you don't trust them completely, that's an uneasy feeling, right. Or if you don't trust them completely, that's an uneasy feeling, and that makes everything else that much more difficult. Yeah, do what you say you're going to do. When you said you're going to do it.

Charles: 10:53

Yes, because, again going back to the discussion of human sexuality in the context of evolution, what is it that works for you to stay alive and for your DNA, more importantly, to make it to the next generation? And that is, women want a man that is capable of producing healthy children and then keeping those children alive to the point that they get to create their own healthy children. And even if you're not a woman that is interested in having kids or you're past your age of having new children, you're not a woman. It's still hard-coded to look for those qualities in a man, the man who has the health and the genetics to produce those kids and has the willingness and the skills to keep those kids alive long enough for them to reproduce as well as the woman from dangers, whether they are physical or mental.

Dan: 12:02

It's either some sort of support or assistance and not working against it, right, not being an additional burden that she has to deal with and handle in addition to taking care of a child or whatever. And all of your actions will be voting in one direction or the other, for for whether you are going to be beneficial or a hindrance to that woman.

Charles: 12:30

Yeah, I think it starts at the very sort of physical, very primal level of safety and security. But that's not enough anymore because society has that is certainly required think and feel the things she thinks and feels, without fear that it's going to set you off or result in a situation or an argument where you can't handle yourself, you can't maintain emotional self-control. A lot's being asked of men to behave in a way that makes you look like a good option for women, including the woman that you're already in a relationship with.

Dan: 13:16

And I think a lot of us struggle with that, and I don't know if you want to get into this now or down the road, but the story he talks about in terms of how little boys play, and I really feel like that scenario is a great example of the conditioning and the from society or whatever you want to call it. Whatever the. The reason is, we are almost our whole lives we are operating with with the model he's describing in terms of how the boys are, handle the problem and what they do with it and the reasons why they typically do that. It's so counterintuitive to what we should be doing with in terms of handling the relationship with a woman, and so that's why I think a lot of a struggle as men, we struggle with that and I don't know if you want to get into that now or down the road or whatever, but I thought that was really cool, yeah we'll certainly get into it.

Charles: 14:08

I believe that's in this chapter, so we'll talk about it here in a couple of minutes. The two major complaints that women have in their relationships are one he's never there for me. And the second is there's not enough intimacy and connection, which the result is a woman in a relationship with a man who still feels alone and feels like she's out there by herself. And I have certainly been the partner that has inspired those feelings, I hesitate to say caused. But I would say certainly I didn't do enough to offset those feelings, and some of my actions and behaviors created or exacerbated situations where those feelings were the only rational response she could have based on how I was acting. And so he's not there for me.

Charles: 14:57

What does that mean? Physically or emotionally? And physically has never been a problem for me. It's been the, it's been being there emotionally for a woman and being able to sit with her in her difficult, challenging feelings.

Charles: 15:10

Because look, man, growing up, a woman's feelings and emotions, and I would even say her whims, those were not safe for me, those led to a very difficult childhood and a very difficult life. So I grew up being scared of those women's feelings, emotions and the external expression of those feelings and emotions. I grew up being very scared of them because they led to some pretty shitty life developments for me and so, growing up as an adult, it's okay. Now flip the switch where you're completely comfortable with those feelings as expressed in the woman that you're with. No, I'm still going to be cautious and scared and try to logic my way out of situations where I'm exposed to those feelings and I've reaped the rewards of that mindset, where being afraid of those feelings and trying to downplay and minimize them was a way that I was not showing up and being present in my relationships.

Dan: 16:18

Yeah, I have a different flavor of that. Growing up mostly with my mom and my sister is I wanted, whenever they were upset about something it wasn't like, ever directed towards me but I didn't. I was uncomfortable when they were upset Like it. It upset me and I didn't want to be upset. So I was looking to fix, I was looking to solve, I was looking to get rid of those feelings and those emotions as quickly as possible.

Dan: 16:47

So my brain goes immediately into Mr Fix it mode. What can I do? I don't want to sit and feel these things because it's making me unhappy. So what can I do? Say to help to fix? And that's not a lot of. And so I come from the approach of not allowing enough time and space for people or my partners in the past to feel things, because it made me uncomfortable, I couldn't sit with the uncomfortable feelings and because of that's created that. I think that created a lack of emotional closeness. And then I've also had some the other where it's physically I've physically not been as close and as present and spent as much time with partners in the past as I I should have been.

Charles: 17:42

Yeah, it can. Definitely a fear of that closeness and being able to not experience her challenging emotions in a way that you don't get defensive and you don't get worried about. Oh, she's not a hundred percent happy all the time. What does that mean for me? How does that affect me and my, my standing and my status in her eyes as being a good partner? And, yeah, when you, when somebody is having a difficult time and you immediately turn the focus on yourself, but what does this mean for me? What about me? Then you're not going to be present for her in the way that she wants you to and she's going to feel lonely, even if you're sitting next to her on the couch.

Charles: 18:25

Yeah, yeah, sure, and men can also feel lonely, which, again, the top two complaints for women. He's not there for me and there's not enough connection and intimacy With men. It's we fight too much and there's not enough sex and look. As a result, if I'm in a relationship where I don't feel both respected and desired by my partner, then I'm also going to feel lonely, even if we're sitting next to each other on a couch.

Dan: 18:51

Yeah, I think it was Gottman who said that men, typically our version of connection and intimacy comes through sex, comes through that. I don't know if that was him or somebody else, and I thought about that and it's true, I definitely feel closer to my partner if we're having regular sex than if we're not Feeling desired, like you said. It's huge. It's huge and that's I think. Looking back at my past relationships is, for whatever reason, it came to the fact that I wasn't feeling as desired as I used to. That was the beginning of the end in most of them and I didn't have the tools or the skill set to be able to resolve that or work on that in any capacity.

Dan: 19:36

Yeah, that was the slippery slope at the very top for me.

Charles: 19:40

These two needs that women and men have are these top two complaints. It's very natural for those to turn into a cycle of she wants more connection and she wants to feel like I'm there for her, and since she doesn't, she's not all that interested in having sex with me and she's not all that interested in having sex with me. And since she's not all that interested in having sex with me, I'm not going to take the emotional risks of trying to be more present and more available for her because I'm feeling lonely. So you've got two people who could physically be in very close proximity to each other, but neither one of them is getting what they need from the other partner, and so it just keeps getting more and more frustrating and people get feeling more and more closed off and disconnected until eventually somebody is okay. It's time for me to pull the ripcord on this, and I'm done.

Dan: 20:35

Yeah, I hate to simplify it down to chicken or the egg, but it's at some point. I remember in my failed relationships I always feeling like she did this and then I'd be reminded I did that and then it just your memory isn't strong enough or good enough to remember exactly what happened and now it's just a horrible cycle to remember exactly what happened and now it's just a horrible cycle. The one thing that I not one thing, but one of the things that I heard from Tony Robbins recently from was that if you treated the end of your relationship like the beginning of your relationship, would it have ended and meaning you're going above and beyond, you're going out of your way, you are trying to impress that other person, you're doing your best foot forward, you are. Would it actually end at that point? It was just an interesting concept to think about.

Charles: 21:31

Yeah, and it feels just intuitively. The way that you would have to break that cycle is by both people saying all right, listen, I understand what you need from me and it's going to be a. It's going to be uncomfortable for me to act as if I'm getting what I need from you, but here's a small way that I'm going to do that. I'm going to act as if I'm getting my needs met from you and I'm going to respond to you again in a very small way, as if I was receiving what I need from you, in the hopes that you will then be able to act as if you're receiving what you need from me and we can start the cycle going in the opposite direction instead of having to continue to go down the drain. It's hard to do that. It's hard to say, all right, look, I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I don't know that I'm going to get repaid for being willing to make myself uncomfortable, but somebody's got to kick this off.

Dan: 22:30

And if it's important enough, if it's important enough then, and I think one way to think about that is how long again? If you do this, are you going to say, hey, I'm going to do this for 90 days, and if I'm not seeing any type of reciprocation after that period of time, I'm at that point, I'm going to wash my hands of it. But yeah, no, that's, it is a risk and for me to mitigate that would be okay. I'm going to put a time period on that If I'm not seeing any type of reciprocation at some point. It takes two to tango, right? You need both people to be invested.

Charles: 23:09

A little bit because you got to. I would say bring in a professional, because I don't know whether, all right, I'm going to try full bore emotional vulnerability for a week and see how it goes. I don't know, is that enough time or is that not enough time? It's going to feel like forever when I'm in the middle of it and I'm not seeing any instant results. So I don't think it's a week, I don't think it's a year, I think a year is probably too long. But finding out and figuring out where it is in the middle and then doing it with some level of accountability, where you almost need that third party to say, okay, yes, you are trying something new, you are trying something uncomfortable, because it might be easy for your partner to say I don't really see a difference, but if you've got that third party that is working with both of you, I think it would make it a lot easier to actually make and stick to doing something difficult.

Charles: 24:08

That's not completely objective, it's not completely subjective and for me this feels so hard and it feels like I'm going above and beyond. But my partner doesn't feel like I'm doing enough yet and you got to have that referee in the middle to help you call balls and strikes so you can determine okay, am I even? Am I doing the things that will even tip the scale, or am I just doing the things that I read in some book that I should do and I don't really know if it's going to help or not?

Dan: 24:35

Yeah, that's a great selling point for therapy.

Charles: 24:37

Yeah, yeah. I would definitely encourage you to do that, because this stuff is hard enough on its own for you to take steps which feel huge and feel difficult, and then you don't know how long you need to stick with them. You don't know if it's actually moving the needle for her, or yeah. Having somebody sitting down in a zoom or in a room with you to say, okay, yeah, this, we've got a game plan here, let's try these things and see if we can make it better, is definitely better than just trying to shoot from the hip, even though you listened to the best podcast and read the best book for sure. Okay, the, the model that he gives us, the thing to remember is a practice called attunement, which is the tune-up for your relationship. Again, just to summarize, the trait that women want most is trustworthiness. Trust is built through emotional connection. Emotional connection is created through attunement. Therefore, emotional attunement, therefore, emotional attunement, equals trustworthiness. So we're going to remember the mnemonic device of attune A-T-T-U-N-E, and here's what those letters stand for in his model.

Charles: 25:52

Number one attend. Give your undivided attention when it's necessary. That means when a woman wants to talk to you. Turn off the game, put away your cell phone and show by your actions that you care about her and what she's saying. And putting away the phone is the hardest one for me. I give a damn about having the game on, I don't care. Yeah, so turning the phone off or putting it on not just turn it off, not just putting it face down on the on the table, but actually putting it in another room or in my pocket is the hard part for me.

Dan: 26:21

Yeah, somewhere on social I saw a clip of somebody basically giving example of and it might've been start with why guy? So Simon Sinek, yeah, where basically he's saying something and he just had his phone in his hand while he was talking, versus putting it away. And even if it's not on, even if you're just holding it, you are signaling to the other person that this is still the most important thing to me. Not this connection, not what I'm communicating, or even if literally hide it from view.

Charles: 26:54

Connection, not what I'm communicating, or even literally hide it from view, yeah, even if not the most important thing, even just having it in your space and communicating this is also a very important thing to me Not good enough.

Dan: 27:06

Right and I would say face down on a table, not good enough it should be out of visual.

Charles: 27:11

It's either in your pocket or in another room. If you really want the person that you're speaking with to feel like, okay, what I'm giving them is the most important thing they're receiving right now, the phone's got to be in your pocket or it's got to be in another room. And sorry if that's inconvenient, but so is trying to love another human. It's great, but it also requires you to say no to things that are less great in honor of that connection and that relationship. So first, yeah, you've got to pay, you've got to attend to them and you've got to take steps that say, ok, you're.

Charles: 27:46

The most important thing that I'm dealing with right now, which is again the big challenge for me, is the phone. The big challenge for you might be the television. It might be whatever. Challenge for you might be the television, it might be whatever, but yeah, whatever is competing for number two has to be put completely out of the scenario for that person to feel like, all right, I'm the most important thing that's going on right now. Second thing is turn toward meaning, physically, turn toward the person. Turn your body and your head and your gaze to the person that you're trying to listen to and trying to have feel like you're listening to them and don't just be talking to somebody over your shoulder or a side sit.

Charles: 28:27

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, physically turn your body toward that person while you're talking to them. Yeah, now listen. There certainly is value in walking side by side with your partner, going for a walk and having a conversation. But if it turns heavy, then find a bench and face them while they're talking. If it's anything more than the weather or the local sports team or what the president said at his press conference, when it gets past small talk and somebody's feelings or somebody's emotions are coming up in the conversation, then, yeah, find a bench and face your partner and have a talk.

Dan: 29:15

What's always fascinating to me is when they bring this, when they bring these physical inclinations of people back to when we were thousands, hundreds of thousands of years ago. A lot, of, a lot of our behaviors come from how we have been doing things for so long, and as men, typically we would be communicating with our friends, other men, side by side, as we are watching the planes, looking either for food or for enemies, and so we are comfortable sitting next to each other, not looking at each other in the eye and communicating that way. And we think about that when you go out to bars and restaurants with your buddies and stuff like that, but you're watching the game or whatever that is, and you're sitting next to each other and you might lean over, but you're not like looking at them in the eyes. Women uh, for years and years when raising children, would need to look directly in their faces in order to understand what's going on with the baby because they couldn't speak yet, right?

Dan: 30:25

And women also, when they connect with each other, they are very comfortable looking at each other in the eyes, face to face, so that they can also, I think, calculate the micro expressions and understand the feelings that somebody's having, but not saying. And so for them to feel that connection, he recommends turning toward that person and saying hey, I'm paying attention to you, I'm looking at you and we just I think a lot of men just don't have that natural inclination to do that. So I think that's why this is a good to remember here right, attune, turn toward. We have to be a little bit intentional with that and create some behavior changes and some natural habits to speak and communicate in that way.

Charles: 31:11

Yeah, it's definitely. It lays the foundation for, certainly, the next steps, and they really do build on each other quite well. The next one, after turning toward, is understanding. So, no matter what the topic of conversation is, the goal should be understanding. And you understand by asking questions and you and I have talked about this all the time where, when you try to jump into fix-it mode, there's a good chance that what you're trying to fix isn't what the actual problem is, because you haven't let her, you haven't let her get to the problem yet, not the real problem. Yeah, again, you hear one complaint and then you try to fix that complaint, but that, that first complaint that comes up in the conversation might not be the actual problem. And I've tried to. I don't always.

Charles: 32:01

This isn't just a man woman thing I don't always go straight to. Here's the root of the problem that I need to address. I will often start with this is a corollary or a tangential symptom of the problem, and this is what's front of mind for me right now. But it's just a very human thing to we're not all doing that. Seven levels of why, where we're only bringing up stuff that is the root cause of the difficulty or the problem we, as humans. It's like here's what's in front of my face right now. I want to talk about it, and then, as I talk about that with you, you and I eventually get to here's what my main complaint, or my main issue is.

Dan: 32:39

Yeah, I agree, I think we're. We are human beings that operate with emotions and we need to get in an emotional state where we're actually open to solving the problem. And, like you said a lot of times, that's not right off the bat. We need some time to vent, to get that out, to lower our emotional state or change our emotional state so that we are open to a solution. And I know when I go, like I said, when I'm in fix it mode, it's because I'm feeling not yeah, she might be upset, but I'm also receiving that Now my emotions are off kilter. And why I want to go right into fix it mode is because I don't like the way I'm feeling and sometimes that's not enough time for the other person to be in the space where they're even open to hearing a fix or a solution.

Charles: 33:24

Right, yes, and so the cure for that is asking questions, and one of my favorite questions is listen. It feels like what you're saying is X, do I have that right? And then hopefully you'll have a partner who's willing to say you're pretty close, but I'm not sure that you understand that. I'm also concerned about why, and that's when you can restate somebody's concern to them, and this is true in work, in personal relationships, in sales, whenever you can say it feels like what you're saying is this, and they can say yes, you understand exactly where I'm coming from, that's exactly what I'm saying. This, and they can say, yes, you understand exactly where I'm coming from, that's exactly what I'm saying. Then there's a chance that you're going to come out of that conversation with positive benefits for both people. But if you're not willing to say hey, if you're not willing to restate what their concern is and accept them saying no, you're not quite there yet. There's a couple other things going on that I feel like you haven't addressed. It's hard to it's hard to come out of the conversation with the goal of a positive outcome unless you're willing to do that.

Charles: 34:31

The next one is non-defensively listen, which God this is my defensiveness is the particular horseman of relationship apocalypses that I struggle with the most. If what your partner is talking to you about or is upset about is you, your best course is not to react to that. You don't want to feel like you're being criticized or that you're under attack. But if you do counterattack, if you make excuses, if you justify or argue, you're going to make things worse. Where, if you can just sit there and let her completely unload everything that she's upset about or is bothering you and then at the end you can make an effort to have her feel understood before you get into any kind of defending your position, that's what she's looking for and that's what most men are unable to provide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard, it's really difficult.

Dan: 35:33

Yeah, I mean, one of the other benefits of asking questions, besides getting more information, is, I think our emotional state changes when we either ask a question or we're asked a question, and I think by asking questions and, again, not going over the top with these and being obnoxious about it but I think that also helps lower that emotional state a little bit as well. So another reason why you want to get more information, even if you think you know it all and have all the answers, is that I think it brings you both into a place where you're a little bit more open to finding a solution and moving forward.

Charles: 36:14

Yeah, and God, it's so hard to not try it for me. It's so hard for me and I'll try to be specific. This is my problem, not necessarily for me. It's so hard for me and I'll try to be specific. But this is my problem, not necessarily everybody else's problem, but this load I put on myself.

Charles: 36:32

She has to think I'm an amazing guy a hundred percent of the time. Otherwise there's an opportunity for her to decide I'm not worth being in a relationship with. So if anything happens to rock that apple cart to the point where she might not feel like I'm a great guy a hundred percent of the time, then it's my turn to make the pitch for why she's wrong and why I actually am a great guy. And now I got to convince her she shouldn't feel this way. Yeah, that's a tough position it is. It's an impossible position to put yourself into and it's not a position that any woman that I've ever been with or ever even met is actually. No woman has that standard. You have to be perfect 100% of the time or you're not worth being in a relationship with.

Dan: 37:20

A person like that would never be in a relationship. Nobody's perfect 100% of the time, or even I don't know any in a relationship, because nobody's perfect A hundred percent of the time, or even I don't know any percent of the time. Nobody's perfect.

Charles: 37:28

Exactly, and yeah, but as men some of us, the codependent crazy ones we tell ourselves we sell ourselves on this narrative that that's the way thing. That's the way relationships work. You gotta be. You gotta be the man 100% of the time. You can't get anything wrong ever and if you do, then get ready for getting dumped, because that's what happens. But what gets you dumped in hindsight? What gets you dumped, is acting as if you have to be perfect all the time and you can't accept hearing criticism from the person you care about. That's what leads to relationships falling apart. Not being honest about yeah, okay, I can see how behaving this way fell short of your expectations for me. I'm sorry. Here's my plan for not dropping this particular ball in this particular way again. That's what leads to healthy relationships, where the opposite is what causes things to go down in flames.

Dan: 38:24

That's what leads to healthy relationships, where the opposite is what causes things to go down in flames, or it's basically just doing lip service and going, hey, I'm not going to do that again and this is my plan, and then not sticking to it ever and just repeating that over and over again.

Charles: 38:36

That's another way to shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah, you're demonstrating how you're not trustworthy. And once you demonstrate how you're not trustworthy, then you demonstrate that you're not somebody to be safe with or to be sexual with.

Charles: 38:49

Yeah, all right. So the I think we're on the last one, right, we covered, yeah, non-defensive listening. Next is empathy. So I like the distinction drawn here between understanding and empathy. Understanding is an intellectual pursuit. Empathy is an emotional pursuit. Empathy is an emotional pursuit. Empathy is cluing into the emotion that she's expressing, and you do this by asking her how she feels and letting her tell you, and then also you can read her body language and let her know that you value how she feels and that it makes sense to you that she would feel this way. Hey, you're not crazy for feeling this way. In your position, I would feel the same or very similar to how you're feeling. That's a big one and it's boy. And if you're up in your head being defensive, you can't say it's impossible. It's like having a one way valve. You can't do both of those at the same time. You can't be defensive and also say yes, I get where you're coming from.

Dan: 40:01

I would feel the same way if I was. You're feeling You're basically welcoming all of those emotions to come and wash over you and if you don't have control over where you are, it can easily overflow at that point and instead of you being able to handle that and absorb that and understand that and be with those emotions. So, guys, do what you can to lower your stress emotions. So, guys, do what you can to lower your stress meditate, go for walks, exercise, eat well, take care of your own house so that you can then take care of others.

Charles: 40:40

Yeah, and ultimately that comes down to a level of abundance and security in your own mind that many of us never get to. Where you can. If you really feel deep down that, whatever my worst case scenario is she dumps me, she leaves me, she cheats on me, whatever If you can honestly say, even if that happens, I will be incredibly sad and I will be a wreck to be around for a few weeks, but I'll be okay, I'll survive and I'll be all right because I'm somebody that can roll with the punches that life throws my way and even when it's really rough, I know that at some point in the future I will be a happy, fulfilled person again. If you really believe that it's a lot easier to accept criticism from the most important person in your life, then you don't have to jump into that defensiveness or that lack of empathy as a as a defense mechanism. You don't have to rely on that of oh, this hurts too bad, I can't survive this, I've got to get myself through it.

Charles: 41:38

Let me get defensive. Let me tell her that her feelings don't matter. Let me tell her that she's acting crazy. Her feelings don't matter. Let me tell her that she's acting crazy when? If you really have a deep foundation of confidence and knowing that you're going to be okay, you don't need to fall into these methods and modes of all right. Your feelings are too much for me, so therefore I have to devalue them for both of us.

Dan: 42:00

Yeah, no, perfectly said. And every time I'm feeling triggered and I think about worst case scenario, whatever situation that is, and realize I'll be okay, worst case scenario, then I'm open to being able to handle difficult things and having difficult conversations and feeling difficult things. And, yeah, 100%, that's critical If you can get into the habit of going to the worst case scenario, thinking through that and realizing, oh wait, now that my modern brain, my primitive, not my amygdala, not my primitive brain, but like I'm processing with the prefrontal cortex, the modern part of my brain, I'm thinking about this. It's really not that bad. Right, all right, now I can silence and quiet that panic part of my brain, that primitive part of my brain, and go all right. Well, thanks for protecting me. I'll talk to you later. Now there's some space for you to be of value and to actually be helpful to the person in the situation.

Charles: 43:09

Yeah, it's remarkable how little control we have over what pops into our head, but how much control we can have over what we do with it. It's like thoughts and feelings. They will just spring up and they are completely beyond our control. But deciding on whether we're going to sit in them and either ruminate or appreciate them depending on whether they're feelings that we would categorize as positive or negative when something good happens and something great pops into your head, you can decide okay, I'm going to focus on and appreciate that. And when something negative or challenging pops into your head, you can decide all right, I'm going to focus on this for the rest of the day and let it ruin my life for the next eight hours. And yeah, it's just appreciating that and letting some of the pressure off to say, okay, I'm not a bad person just because something pops into my head. I don't have any control over what pops into my head, but I do have control over how much I'm going to let that just take over my day or not.

Dan: 44:21

Yeah, and it takes practice. It's not something you do once. It's not like you go to the gym when you spend 24, 24 hours in the gym over weekend and you're in good shape. So think of, I think, I think you can think of going to therapy as a way of there, like your mental personal trainer, where I think they help bring that out, that what you just described in terms of how to handle those situations and again, another selling point for finding a professional, even if it's not specifically therapy but a life coach walk you through analyzing how you're reacting, your own thoughts. Definitely important to continue to practice that and be consistent with it.

Charles: 45:04

Yeah, and I definitely. I value coaching, I value therapy, I value even hiring a coach to help you become a better meditator. There's lots of ways that you can and I think it's important to look at. Okay, here's here are the weaknesses in my game and here's my biggest weakness, and that's the one that I'm going to focus on and trying to get that to level up, and then I'll work on the other ones. But there's a lot of ways and there's a lot of resources. That man my men's group is a close second. And, as we talked about in our previous podcast, just popping on my AirPods and going for a walk and listening to a book about mental health or relationships or whatever for an hour that's no replacement for my group or for my therapy sessions, but it's certainly a nice addition to it. And just sitting at my desk chair doing 10 minutes of meditation in the morning which I wish I did with more regularity than I currently do, but that's a problem I can fix. There's a lot that can help you stay present and stay aware of what you're feeling and what you're thinking and be able to try to have some impact on directing the next feeling or the next thought instead of just being on autopilot, where whatever happens to you and you're just forced to just watch it unfold. You can take more active steps than that, all right. So let's talk about trustworthiness is something that you can work on building, no matter what kind of relationship you're in, even if you're not in a romantic relationship at all. Just building that muscle of well, I'm a guy that is willing to say what my commitments are and then follow through on them, and that will help you get better at being a partner, either in the relationship you have or the relationship that you want.

Charles: 47:08

What do men want? Men, as we said, want less fighting and more sex. Generally, you want approval from the women in your life. You want approval. I like these. You want approval from all the women in the world, but let's settle on helping you get approval from the woman or women that are closest to you, and then we can we can scale that out. Men want less conflict. You don't want to be the source of your partner's unhappiness, and if she is unhappy, you want to fix whatever is broken and move on. Men generally feel responsible for women's feelings, and this is where men go way wrong. Yeah, it is tough.

Charles: 47:43

Just the other day my girlfriend wanted to share some thoughts she was having about the relationship. That I think was also tied to some of the stuff that she was working on in therapy and she's like I've put my thoughts into a letter and next time we get together I would like to share it with you. And I got to tell you, dan, as great as things are going in our relationship we've been together four or five months now the alarm bell started going off for me when somebody says I've got some thoughts I want to share and I've written them down. Oh yeah, as a man, that is one of the scariest things that I can hear and I have a long history of reacting poorly to that and not wanting to go through that experience. And and I told her that I said listen, the idea of let's sit down and I want to share my. I've got thoughts that are big enough and important enough that I wrote them down so that I can share them well with you or share them coherently with you.

Charles: 48:49

I was like this activates every part of me that's bad at relationships is really saying okay, it's time to suit up, we're about to go to war. And I read it while she went to the restroom Number one, it wasn't as long as I was afraid that it was going to be. And number two, there was nothing in it that made me feel accused or less than so. She did a great job putting it together and it did not. There was no reason for me to be scared of it and we had a great conversation after it was over. And just acknowledging that, okay, this is a scenario and a situation that is very hard for me and I could get emotional, I could get defensive. Now let's see what this is going to turn into, and trying to stay curious and trying to stay open was hard for me, but it was a positive experience that I would have completely screwed up a year ago.

Dan: 49:53

Do you feel like the next time there's a letter to be read that you will somehow react a little bit differently?

Charles: 50:01

I do. If you, if you do the things that are important to you, you will attract people that find importance in the same kinds of things, and then, when situations come up like this, it's oh, we're already on the same page, now let's get down to doing the work. Okay, let's talk about the story that he mentioned, or that he said and you mentioned already, about the way kids regulate each other. Now, when I was a kid, we had a different name for this game that they played, and it was not an. It was not a nice name that I'm not going to repeat, but the game is basically one person has a ball and then everybody else is trying to get the ball from that one person, which often would involve ripping it from their hands or throwing them to the ground or tackling them or doing whatever you had to do to get the ball away from them.

Dan: 50:52

Yeah, it's basically as if both if you're playing football and there is no offense and defense, it is you get hiked the ball and you're the quarterback and you're running from both your team and the defense at the same time.

Charles: 51:08

You're kind of all there by yourself. Yeah, the offense is the one person with the ball. The defense is everyone else who's on the playground that day.

Dan: 51:16

Yeah.

Charles: 51:17

And then as soon as you get the ball, then you become the offense and everybody else's defense.

Dan: 51:22

It's a rough game. I think that should be an Olympic sport.

Charles: 51:24

Oh, that'd be great. Yeah, I don't. In this book they call it mob. I've never heard it called that before I haven't heard it either I've only heard way worse names than that. So yeah, now you understand the rules, and why don't you go through your recollection of where the emotional experience developed out of this game?

Dan: 51:45

Yeah, as boys in that scenario we're there to play the game and the scenario that he goes through is one of the guys, one of the one of the boys, is upset. He starts crying because he never gets the ball, and when I was a kid, if somebody was doing that I don't know if we had somebody in the crowd that was as kind as the scenario he paints. However, there could be these days, and obviously I don't speak for every scenario, but somebody stopped. One of the other boys stops and says hey, listen, let's make sure Gabe gets the ball. And then so they stop.

Dan: 52:24

They gave the ball, he stops crying and they continue to play, and so in that scenario, what the boys were trying to do was continue playing, and anything that got in the way of continuing that game is something that needed to be solved, and it was all in their best interest to solve the the one boy from crying, and by doing so they just gave him the ball and they were able to continue on playing. So immediately that shows and the mindset of boys and men as we get older is we really want to continue with the mission at hand and things that get in the way need to be solved, with whatever that takes and needs to be solved as soon as possible, because the longer it takes the means, the longer we're not going to be able to get what we want, which is that joy from playing the game, hunting that, that animal, whatever that might be.

Charles: 53:20

Yeah, and so I guess the interesting question or the question I have in looking at this is OK. So dealing with your partner's emotions is the hey, why are you crying? I'm crying because I'm upset that I don't get the ball. Ok, we'll give you the ball, and so in a relationship it could be level. One could be like I'm going to engage with my partner's emotions so that we can continue playing the game, having the relationship, enjoying the frequent, better quality sex, whatever. No, I can start looking at engaging with her emotions and my own emotions as the point where that is. That's the goal in and of itself is to feel these emotions and to experience emotions together as a couple, where it's not just something I do on my way to good sex or a night without having an argument. It's like that can be the goal in and of itself to to connect and relate to each other, not just on our way to some other goal.

Dan: 54:31

And I also think as adults, because our lives get a little bit more complicated than just playing with the ball, getting an answer to why are you crying. It's never that simple, right? Even if one thing is able to be identified, like I didn't get the raise, there could be other things going on there. There's a lot of other things that color that scenario that might be involved and might not be as obvious. That's something to think about too, is those are rooted in those emotional feelings that you just talked about.

Charles: 55:08

Yeah, and that's again a great case to be made for that digging deeper, seven levels if appropriate, to see okay, what is it that's really motivating you right now? What's the core need that you want to, or that you hope will be met by whatever this thing is that you're trying to achieve. All right, let's hit the. I love at the end of these chapters. He's got this cheat sheet for heroes where he summarizes the chapter and does a great job. What do women want? Trustworthiness. What's the secret of trustworthiness? Attunement.

Charles: 55:41

One thing he says here that we didn't really get into but I think is important is don't beat your chest. Women need to feel physically safe with you, and so if any time during conflict, you try to make any reference to the fact that you are physically more imposing or stronger than her, it's immediately going to, it's going to imbalance whatever the conflict that you're having is, because that is something that, as a guy, you can raise your voice or you can stand up bigger and you can make subtext of oh, things have to go my way, because look how, look how big and strong I am. If you do any of that, then number one it undermines whatever you're trying to accomplish with your words Because, just like if you're having a debate about politics with somebody and then you go to some sort of a personal attack, you're basically saying, okay, I'm at the end of good arguments that I can make, so now let me reference the fact that you're shorter, you have a big nose or whatever You're done, you're no longer participating in the same, you're no longer playing the same game that the other person is, and trying to intimidate somebody in any way is going to be crap for your relationship and it's also going to make it sound like whatever you had said in the argument or the discussion up to that point doesn't really matter, because you're out of gas. You don't have anything to contribute anymore. A trustworthiness leads to less fighting and more sex. When a woman feels emotionally connected to you and you demonstrate your trustworthiness, the result is less fighting and more sex, which is a win-win for everybody involved.

Charles: 57:22

Here's what zeros do, as opposed to heroes Dismiss her emotions or immediately try to fix them. Use your voice size or strength to intimidate. Pay attention to other things, like your phone when you're trying to listen to her. Don't show up when you say you will Check out other women when you're with her. That's a huge one Keep secrets, you lie or you lie about cheating. If you're up to any of those things, you cannot hide the fact. That's who you are. You think you can, but you can't, and she's going to pick up on that and either she'll stay with you out of dysfunction or she'll leave you and try to find somebody better if she can. Dysfunction, or she'll leave you and try to find somebody better if she can. And the goal is to be with women who can find other options but choose not to yeah, yeah, yep, all right, so love this book.

Charles: 58:15

This may go on the short list of books I don't have a lot to complain about. I've been through this book twice now and I can't find anything that he says or or goes about explaining in the wrong way where I feel like every other book except Dr Julie uh has done that. I'm looking forward to this one. We're going to try to do about a chapter a week and it's broken up into some great sections. That makes that super easy. I'm real excited to keep doing this one with you.

Dan: 58:42

Yeah.

Charles: 58:43

Sounds good. All right, thanks, dan. We'll talk to you next time. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening to the entire episode. You entire episode listeners are easily our favorites and we appreciate you. We know you have lots of choices for guys with microphones who think they're wise, and we're thrilled that you chose to listen to our show. Please check out our website, mindfully, and we're thrilled that you chose to listen to our show. Please check out our website, mindflaymasculinecom for full audio and video episodes, as well as anything else we find worth sharing. Thanks.