Why Her Friendships Could Be The Key To Your Happiness Together

Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of Mindfully Masculine! In this episode, Charles and Dan dive into Chapter 12, Best Friends Forever, from The Man's Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman and colleagues. This chapter explores the fascinating dynamics of friendships and their impact on relationships.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Gender Differences in Friendships: Discover how men's and women's friendships differ and why these differences matter in romantic relationships.
2. The Role of Social Connections: Learn how a woman’s friendships can positively influence her health and emotional well-being—and why this benefits her relationship with you.
3. Marriage vs. Cohabitation: Insights into the studies on how marital and cohabitation dynamics affect longevity and health.
4. Balancing Emotional Support: Tips for avoiding the extremes of emotional dependence or isolation in your relationship.
5. Correlation vs. Causation: A nuanced discussion about healthy habits and whether marriage itself increases longevity.
6. Encouraging Friendships: Why supporting your partner’s friendships is essential—and how to handle concerns about her male friends.

Notable Insights:

• A strong social network for both partners leads to better emotional regulation and a healthier relationship.
• Men often rely heavily on their romantic partner for social support, while women diversify their support system through friendships.
• Fostering mutual respect and open communication is key when navigating concerns about friendships.

Practical Takeaways:

• Encourage your partner’s friendships, especially if she feels unfulfilled in that area.
• Build your own social network to avoid overburdening your relationship.
• Use your partner’s feedback to improve your interactions with her social circle—strive to be someone they root for!

Resources Mentioned:

• The Man’s Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman and colleagues
• Diary of a CEO podcast (episode on dopamine)
• Huberman Lab Podcast with Jordan Peterson (discussion on motivation)

For more episodes and updates, visit MindfullyMasculine.com. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode if you found it valuable. Thanks for listening!

Tags: #MindfullyMasculine #Relationships #Friendships #EmotionalSupport #GenderDynamics #Marriage #PersonalGrowth

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:28 Friendship Dynamics: Gender Differences
• 2:24 Marriage, Longevity, and Cohabitation
• 5:41 Balancing Emotional Support in Relationships
• 12:05 Encouraging Partner Friendships
• 14:02 Cultural and Evolutionary Perspectives on Social Connection
• 27:15 Avoiding Extremes in Emotional Sharing
• 33:03 Handling Jealousy and Concerns About Frienships
• 39:25 Practical Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Charles: 0:00

There are two extremes. There's the extreme of I'm a hotshot alpha male, I don't have any problems, nothing bothers me, I'm never going to complain to my partner about anything, and the other side of that is I am just going to be a machine that vomits my troubles onto my partner and feels better by sharing everything with her that's ever bothered me or ever does bother me. Don't be either of those things. Find a place somewhere in the middle. Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. In this episode, dan and I will continue discussing the Man's Guide to Women by Dr John Gottman and others. We will talk about gender differences and friendships, marriage and longevity, cohabitation versus marriage, cultural and evolutionary perspectives on social connection, social networks and emotional regulation, encouraging partner friendships, balancing emotional support in relationships, correlation versus causation in healthy habits, personal development and relational health, and other topics. As always, I encourage you to check out our website for both audio and video episodes, as well as other news and resources we decide are fit for sharing.

Dan: 1:09

Thanks for listening and enjoy to cover chapter 12, best Friends Forever, which is a little.

Charles: 1:28

I was surprised by the content of this chapter. It's not really being about being your partner's best friend as much as it's about the dynamics of friendship overall and how it affects your relationship.

Dan: 1:41

And the difference also between men's friendships and women's friendships, and I thought that was very interesting, the way he brings in the need, relationship and and the difference also between men's friendships and women's friendships. And I thought that was very interesting, the way he brings in the need for women and and why they need those friendships more than men.

Charles: 1:53

Yeah, I was a little surprised about that and the thing is he didn't really, or they didn't, because, again, I was playing all four of them. I always give john gottman credit for writing this book because and I think it's two reasons his name appears the biggest, and also it's narrated by a man, and so as we listen to it, I just, me too, do a shortcut in my head of oh, it's john gottman saying these things, but there's two other women and one other guy that wrote this book with them, and I gotta try to remember that.

Dan: 2:24

They're mentioned a lot less in the search throughout the book as well.

Charles: 2:27

So I think there's something in this chapter or the next chapter that I don't remember when he talks. I think it's the next chapter where he talks a lot about how men in marriages live longer, and we'll get into that in detail when we do the next episode of the podcast, but it did strike me. I had the thought, and maybe you did too. While I'm hearing him talk about that repeatedly, I wonder if the fact that he's an older guy who's in a marriage, if he felt the need to emphasize that, because what I hear pretty much any study or anything that talks about okay, if you're a guy who does X, you'll live longer than a guy who doesn't. My response to that is I'm not in this to live as long as I can. I'm not in this to die early. I'm not in this to get sick early. I'm not in this to have a low quality of life early.

Dan: 3:22

I'm not saying I don't give any of those things a consideration, but just having the highest possible number when I finally croaked is way, way low on my list of priorities a lifetime of indiscriminate and un or insecure relationships, being able to sleep with whoever you want as many times as you want, and you're trading that off for a marriage commitment where it says a lifetime of happiness and joy, and I think part it's a side benefit of being able to live longer. But I think they're really trying to focus on hey, by being in a marriage, you really have the ability to have a lifetime of happiness rather than not necessarily being as happy if you are single and constantly dating and changing relationships single and constantly dating and changing relationships?

Charles: 4:28

yes, and I definitely. Yeah. I'm not saying that I am against monogamy or marriage or long-term partnerships or anything like that. I'm just saying that I don't see it as big as of a selling point, as I think he's trying to make it that you live longer because of it, and part of the reason he he says that you live longer because of it, and part of the reason he says that you live longer because of it, is single men are more likely to engage in all-around risky behaviors, including drinking, drinking and driving, using drugs, and none of those things are part of my life anyway in a monogamous relationship.

Charles: 5:02

Now, there's no harmful or unhealthy things I would be doing if I wasn't, if I was single right now. There's no things I feel like I'm missing out on or things that I stopped once I got into a relationship, so I just. It does make me wonder, though, as an older guy in a long-term relationship, is he a little bit more bullish on the you'll live longer if you're married than he would be otherwise, and I think it's an old way. I think most old people are into the idea of living longer because death is closer for them. As far as our actuarial tables are concerned, correct.

Charles: 5:41

But when he talks about you'll live for an average of I think it's eight years, yeah, that's what he said for me, man, the difference between 81 and 89 and maybe it's because I'm 40 years away from that range it means little to nothing to me. If I, and if I had the choice of you, can die in your sleep in relatively good shape at 81 or spend the last eight years of your life in a nursing home, say at 89, then that's a no-brainer for me.

Dan: 6:11

Yeah, you really need to look at the quality of life those last eight years. If you can preserve the same quality of life that you've had and it just lasts eight years longer, hey, I see the value in that. But if it's going to be a shitty eight years longer, hey, I see the value in that. But if it's going to be a shitty eight years for us to a year's struggle, then you're you're not really selling it and I don't, and I don't feel like your.

Charles: 6:35

I guess maybe your relationship status could have an impact on. If you have a partner who's telling you, hey, go to your doctor for your annual checkup, and that's the kind of thing you wouldn't do otherwise, then, yes, I could see how that would have that kind of effect on it and I think when they were they also mentioned a study done by Pepper Schwartz, who actually is on the is one of the psychologists or psychiatrists on the Married at First Sight show for a full year.

Dan: 7:02

So, when they said Pepper Schwartz, I'm like, oh, dr Pepper, okay From, married up for a sight show, for a full interest is. So when they said pepper schwartz, I'm gonna go dr pepper, okay from. So dr, that's how she goes. Like she goes by dr fevers who does yeah, it's very what a yeah, great marketing it looks like dr ruth jesus, that's a blonde older lady. Yeah, anyway, so they they mentioned. She did a really large study, was like 12 000 married couples, if you remember that or not married couples.

Dan: 7:22

It was married and unmarried people that tried to say, trying to figure out what the difference was with people cohabitating versus people who were married. That was, yeah, there were some surprising things in that section, didn't I think that's where is that where the data came from, the eight years?

Charles: 7:47

Or they were like less committed because yeah, the assumption was that if you cohabitate with someone for a long time You're as committed, they'll start acting like a married couple.

Dan: 7:55

That's what it was.

Charles: 7:56

Yes, yeah, they were like no. You wrote the data says you. You act less like a married couple If you cohabitate for a long period of time.

Dan: 8:03

Right now, act less like a married couple if you cohabitate for a long period of time Right Now. And then the quick-, oh, seven years is when it becomes a common law marriage. That's right, but there was a real quick sentence in there where he said now that data could have been a little bit. There's a variable in there where they said that people who typically cohabitate but don't marry already engage in unhealthy habits oh, that's right, they took it back to.

Charles: 8:28

Based on your education and your high school experience, people who cohabitate are more likely to be less educated and drink more, use drugs, more things like that you. So, then that's interesting. So the more educated you are, the more likely you are to get married. I guess that's interesting. So the more educated you are, the more likely you are to get married, I guess.

Dan: 8:47

I guess Right and commit in that way. So then you're leading a healthier lifestyle already, right? Then you have to.

Charles: 8:53

So then it has that correlation versus causing, like you said like you already do, the healthy thing?

Dan: 9:00

Exactly so. Just because you get married does not mean you're going to get an extra eight years. Correct yes thing? Exactly so just because you get married does not mean you're going to get an extra eight years.

Charles: 9:06

Correct, yes, in your case. Yeah, that's interesting, so you?

Dan: 9:08

get those eight years regardless.

Charles: 9:10

Right yeah, if you're making healthy decisions with the way you live.

Dan: 9:14

So that kind of fits his whole argument oh, you get married and you're going to be.

Charles: 9:18

Listen, You're going to it. The bigger the study is, both the more likely it is to be accurate, but also the less likely it is to zero in on an individual. And looking at it this way, is you're less likely to have somebody who wants to marry you if you've got drug problems, alcohol problems? No, you find people to marry them fairly easily, but they have the same problem. So that's the thing you attract, what you are right and I don't.

Dan: 9:48

I I guess those people are not going to get that eight years. They're not going to be part of the majority I think I'll marry their problem. That's not going to fix all those other problems and dollars donuts are most likely getting divorced and maybe remarried, and divorced, remarried versus just staying with one person the whole time.

Charles: 10:06

Yeah, so the question is, yeah, does getting married make you more likely to live longer, or is being married just another indicator that you make the kind of decisions that lead you to live longer? I would say that's probably the I was great. But yeah, trying to separate causation from correlation in studies is extremely difficult, especially the ones where it's, if you do this and the big one that would come up on rogan all the time is sitting in a sauna for 20 minutes a day and how it lowers all caused morbidity by 67 percent or some holy cow something ridiculous number. But then you have to say, okay, people who have a daily sauna practice, what else are they doing? And the answer, the thing that's keeping them alive, is the. What else are they doing, not the fact that they go sit in a sauna 20 minutes. Well, certainly they're paying attention to what they eat. They're paying attention to how often they move their body.

Dan: 10:56

They're doing a whole lot taking their vitamins and their supplements and even the even sitting in the sauna is a form of relaxation, and so it's just like a lot of that is like a daily.

Charles: 11:05

What other self-care rituals do they have besides just going to the sauna? Yeah, so it's very yeah, it's easy. If you're in the, if you're in the building and selling saunas business, it's very easy to point to that and say do you want to live longer?

Dan: 11:18

Then buy our sauna, speaking of which, I was in Sam's Club the other day. They, the other day they've got these like 300 stand-up saunas now where you can including the red light therapy, whatever you can buy and throw it in the room that you want any type of. Oh, there was yeah it was yeah, my, my girlfriend had dragged me away. Geez, I knew you'd link that.

Charles: 11:35

I was like yeah, I do the one that I'm dealing with right now the walking pad and the standing desk. You know that I've got a lot more room in my new camper than I had in my old one. I've got a lot more temptation to just getting the smallest possible standing desk that I could just put my MacBook on and just stand while I'm answering emails, while I'm watching TV shows, while I'm doing whatever. So let's jump into a little bit of the text, some of the other principles that he shares.

Charles: 12:05

Women are more socially connected than men. I think that's certainly true in modern society. I'm not convinced that is a biological fact, though, because I think they're connected in different ways. Where you know, while the women were at home doing the gathering and raising of the children, the guys were typically out together doing the hunt. I would argue both of those are equally as socially connecting activities.

Charles: 12:35

We don't really have that level of connection as men anymore, because going out to kill the beast, as it were, is not an exclusively male activity, like it was up until 70 years ago, when it was pretty much men in the workforce exclusively, or there were certainly some jobs that women had, but it wasn't a lot of men and women working together.

Charles: 13:00

There is now, I think, the. I think men probably got more of that male social connection when you went to an office and it was only other dudes and this is even before the women were secretaries and stuff like that, back when it was just dudes in a factory surrounded by other dudes. That probably mapped a little bit closer to the going out for the hunting than what we have today. And I think now men are less socially connected because it takes more effort and we still find that in some ways you and I go and hang out with our friends. We'll go out occasionally, but not to the degree that most women seem to have or to the degree that men used to have not too long ago on an evolutionary time scale so I'm wondering if this, the nature of the work, is what makes a difference in terms of that social connection from history.

Dan: 14:02

So if we're out hunting there's not that much communication we can really do with each other while we're either hunting or running or whatever. But I feel, and again my assumption here is the nature of gathering and picking things.

Charles: 14:19

You can have full-on. You're not the stare the berries away if you talk too loud. Exactly yeah.

Dan: 14:23

And you're, you can be a lot closer, or, yeah, exactly. So that's my point too. I feel like that could be a little of a stressful situation where which some of our communication could be shut down.

Charles: 14:51

Now we are like, but also I think that the bonding could be higher Absolutely In the face of the lower communication, because you're running the risk of starving if you're unsuccessful or getting eaten by something bigger.

Charles: 15:03

For sure I could see that, but I feel like in a different type of way, definitely, definitely the other way, like one of those, like my buddy's in trouble, I'll be there for him versus I'm cool and I enjoy spending hours together, just chit-chatting and just going shopping and gathering, whatever, yeah yeah, it's definitely different, but I just I did find that as I was reading this chapter, and he files says the more friends a woman has, the healthier she's going to be, but he does not say the same for men. Right, and I think part of this, this is the man's guide to women, so it's explaining how women work more than in the job is to explain how men work, I would say. Would you agree? The most miserable men are the ones who don't have a lot of male friends. Yeah, yeah.

Dan: 15:53

I think and yeah, there's a couple, and I think that, looking at it is, I think my opinion is you don't need quite as many male friends, as girls tend to have girlfriends. A lot of girls have like many girlfriends, I would say that's usually the way, at least the way that it appears. I've never had more guy friends than a girl that I've dated. That's not true, I think. I agree.

Dan: 16:16

I think it uses the point of what women talking about when they go to the bathroom together, when they go shopping together, and it's everything they talk about. And men don't do that. And he even uses the example of two guys sitting around watching the game and all day and the, their wives, were talking, and at the end of the day the one wife asks the guy hey, isn't that crazy how bob's been handling the amputation of his leg? And the guy had no idea that bob amputated his leg because they just didn't talk about it, didn't come up. Yeah, and so I think also again, maybe again assumptions from information that I don't have, but thinking about the type of bonding that we, that men, would have, is based on, like you said, it might be deeper, it might be based on like trauma or more intense and because of that I don't feel. I feel like a lot of times guys have a problem letting our emotions and tapping into that side of ourselves with another guy, because that's not something we're genetically programmed to do or have experience doing.

Dan: 17:26

it was more on yeah, survive, thrive and survive type of level which is like an intensity, right, rather than headed ahead and befriend, which is what women do, and so they are just used to expressing their emotions with each other because that's they were able to. They're able to use that front part of their brain and not they weren't like surviving when they were bonding. They were. They were using emotions and care and thoughtfulness, and I think there's a little bit of that left and the way that, the way we you, we work this way yeah, I, I later had that at this level.

Charles: 17:58

And I wonder how much of that is, how much of it is genetic and how much of it is just being handed down and how much of it is cultural, because there there are.

Charles: 18:06

Yeah, absolutely, we of it is cultural because there there are yeah, absolutely. We do see things like the ancient greeks and shakespeare and stuff, where him and his contemporaries talked about feelings and emotions quite a bit and all the playwrights in both of those cultures were only men, and so some of them. There was a place where it's like, hey, let's delve into this, let's make this the one of the cornerstones of our society and our culture and then see other cultures where that doesn't really happen at all yeah, yeah.

Charles: 18:33

No, I don't think the spartans are probably talking, sitting around talking about their feelings.

Dan: 18:37

I feel like, yeah, what was nurtured right at that point? But I think genetically, I think we were programmed to lean more one way or the other. But I absolutely okay.

Charles: 18:49

So let's see female humans and primates form social groups to ensure their survival and their survival, the offspring we mentioned women tend and befriend. The more friends a woman has, the more health benefits and they have. They cited studies where women with strong women friendships in their lives were more likely to survive cancer and other illnesses and other problems. And and I would say and again it's a correlation causation chicken and the egg. But I've been friends with and dated girls who didn't have very many strong friendships with other women and they did tend to be a little higher on the anxiety scale than others and because they they weren't getting that social connection. And I think we we do. We should have people in our lives that help us to regulate our emotions. And if men or women, if you're relatively lonely other than your primary romantic partnership, then I think you're going to miss out on some of those anxiety relieving benefits of having a social network yeah, and he even mentions that men who connect with other women, and you're shutting that down.

Dan: 20:25

You're just making more of a toxic environment, and it's also, again, unrealistic to think that you are going to be able to provide everything for your partner and vice versa, like that, that all their emotional needs are going to be met by you or vice versa. And so why are and are you equipped? You're not a woman, right? There's perspectives that she's going to need from other people and from who are women, who can identify with her, and there's perspectives that she's going to need from you as a guy, that she's not gonna be able to get from some of her female friends. But don't try to be all things that one person. I think, and a lot of times I think, for I don't know how it comes about, but in some, for some weird reason, I grew up thinking, hey, I, you need to do everything for that person and be everything for that other person. Right, you complete me and you are my better half.

Dan: 21:22

And right and but also these undertones of yeah you are going to basically be everything for that one person, and when you aren't, that becomes disappointing to both of you. And then, because your expectations are so high, and so I think, if we lower the bar, realize, hey look, be the best person that we can be, the best partner we can be, but not the only person in that person's life.

Charles: 21:48

Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with I think it was a Hillary Clinton quote from the 90s of takes a village to raise a child and I would argue it takes a village to to keep an adult healthy, and saying you should really look at it like yeah.

Charles: 22:03

I've got a team and my partner has a team Right and we're both the MVPs of each other's team, but we're not the whole team and you should really look at it that way. Where her friends, her family, Urkel, they should be part of the team that are working to keep her mentally healthy and happy, and that's not something you should be threatened by or looking to put the kibosh on.

Dan: 22:26

No, you're going to get the best possible solutions presented to you when you've got a variety of perspectives contributing their information to a problem. And they've done a lot of studies in terms of the corporate world, where they show people from different backgrounds and they've compared that to people who have that same background in terms of like the board and different teams within companies and, more often than not, the one that the company has more variety in terms of the ethnic background and age background. Also, diversity, yes, but there's like studies that prove that if the company's actually it's not just a politically correct thing to do, it's actually profitable or more profitable and more successful when you are able to do that, yeah, when you're pulling from people with different backgrounds, different kinds of experiences, and it just logically just makes sense to them, of course, absolutely, yes, 100%.

Charles: 23:22

He does say men typically turn to their wives or partners for their social support, but women typically turn to their female friends, and this is one of our favorite topics on this podcast where, if you try to turn your partner into your mommy or your therapist, you're you're on a countdown to the end of the relationship.

Dan: 23:40

What if you're successful? Then yeah, exactly Right. If what are you okay? Now they're your mommy or a therapist, but they're no longer your partner.

Charles: 23:49

Great yeah, enjoy that no-transcript, because if you start looking for that entire job description to be filled by just your romantic partner, you can't be somebody's therapist as well as being their hot and heavy lover. It just doesn't work that way.

Dan: 24:26

I'm also not advocating never telling your partner about problems.

Charles: 24:30

No, neither am I.

Dan: 24:31

That's different and, like you said, the VIP of your team. So maybe your advice and that connection carries a little bit more weight and that's fine, but it shouldn't be.

Charles: 24:44

Hey, this person, I'm relying on this person a% of the time for everything in terms of my problems, my issues, and I would go even a little further than that to say, when something frustrates you about work or another friendship or whatever, don't make your partner the first person you always go to, or even most of the time you go to. There should be other people in your life that you can say, hey, I'm struggling with this, I'm frustrated with this, I wish this was working out better for me. Because, yeah, I do feel, as men, that if you are constantly dumping every negative thing that happens to you in your life to your partner, looking for them to make you feel better, thing that happens to you in your life to your partner, looking for them to make you feel better, then that is going to get higher some and it's going to start feeling to your partner like man, does this guy do anything but complain about the way the world is unfair to him?

Dan: 25:39

yeah, and I don't know if it was in this chapter, another chapter, but he talks about building up the positive bank of things.

Charles: 25:46

So yeah, so don't just do that.

Dan: 25:48

Right, you can do some of that. But also don't let that define the relationship. So plan fun surprises, keep that the romance going, keep you know, treat that person the way you know you at the end of the relationship, the way you guys were at the beginning of the relationship during that limerence right, so that? So that when bad things happen and it's called life, right that that you've got also a bank of positive things that you have connections over, so that you guys are defining the relationship by all the problems that you're bringing that's, you've got more. You've got more there.

Charles: 26:23

And it can be easy to sort of reinterpret that as hide your struggles from your partner. We're not saying that. No, just have other people that can be your first line of defense and your first line of co-regulation, other than just your partner there's got to be. You've got to have friends or a therapist or a men's group where you, when something comes up, you can say, all right, this is bogging me, I'm going to take it to this other source first and let them talk me down a little bit and then I'll share it with my partner and here's a little shortcut even if you don't have a therapist or a men's group whatever, just type it in google, the issue that you're having, and just see what people are talking about that's a good idea too just to get some ideas and perspective, kind of.

Dan: 27:05

Yeah, just obviously don't believe everything you read, but but I I think that's a good place to start. That might actually help you regulate before you bring it to your partner.

Charles: 27:15

I agree there. Yeah, so to. To put it this way, there are two extremes. There's the extreme of I'm a hot shot, alpha male, I don't have any problems, nothing bothers me, I'm never going to complain to my partner about anything, and the other side of that is I am just going to be a machine that vomits my troubles onto my partner and feels better by sharing everything with her that's ever bothered me or ever does bother me. Don't be either of those things. Find a place somewhere in the middle where you're able to handle your stuff, either on your own or with your other close friendships or relationships, and bring yourself down off the ledge occasionally. But also don't try to hold up this image of there's nothing ever wrong with me, nothing bothers me, I'm always fine and I don't need you for anything. There's a healthy thing in the middle, as always, where you can moderate those two extreme approaches.

Dan: 28:03

And putting myself in the other person's shoes. So if I was the person that somebody was coming to and my girlfriend or somebody was having a problem and wanting some advice or wanting to talk to me about it, I would be flattered in terms of they feel like they love me enough and they trust me enough to feel vulnerable to tell me about these things that are bothering them, and so that's something to think about when you're hesitating about bringing something. If you have the alpha male scenario you don't want to say anything you might be missing out an opportunity to connect, make them feel valuable to you and again, it's a balance, it's a fun, it's an art, right?

Dan: 28:50

so yeah you don't do it all the time, but once in a while. Don't be afraid to do it, because you could actually improve the relationship by doing.

Charles: 28:58

I would say the process that probably raises attraction the most in your relationship is when you go to your partner and say, hey, I had this difficult thing come up, and here's how I felt about it, here's what I did to make it better and here's why I'm feeling good about it now. If you didn't give that kind of a story when you're at the supper table sharing how your day went, I have gotten the best positive feedback from my partners when I shared it that way. Here's a difficult thing that occurred today. Here's how I felt about it. Here's how I handled it to make it better and here's why I'm confident it's not going to be a big deal when it happens the next time. That's the kind of story that we all are attracted to hearing from other people.

Dan: 30:03

Sure, yeah, the table from for the rest of your life and I was watching a huberman clip that he was interviewing somebody who said one of the biggest causes of, or I guess a side effect or a indication of somebody being depressed is that or one of the things that cause depression. One of the biggest things that cause depression is keep talking about your problems and so, versus talking about it and then moving on to the theos and it's basically it keeps bringing those feelings back up again, but you talk about those problems and so I'm not saying don't talk about your problems?

Charles: 30:38

No, certainly.

Dan: 30:39

But if you turn into a habit of where that's what I do is talk about all the things that are bad all the time, you can cause, like basically what is just being upset could cause a long-term pressure.

Charles: 30:50

Yeah, there's a line between venting what's bothering you and ruminating over just the negatives in your life, and that's definitely something to be aware of.

Dan: 31:01

Yeah, I can see that happening. If you are getting attention from people because bad things are happening to you now, you start to get this reward for saying about telling them about bad things that have happened to you. But meanwhile I think unfortunately, when that hit of dopamine wears off now it's going to start to really make you feel like crap about yourself and I could see that leaning towards some sort of clinical depression.

Charles: 31:31

Yeah, that reminds me. I did want to say on the podcast here we're recording this on Wednesday, january 8th and in the last week I listened to an episode of Diary of a CEO that was all about dopamine. That was really good. And then George Peterson was on Huberman and they podcast together on motivation. That was pretty good too.

Charles: 31:52

Yeah, got to enjoy for the first time in a while, enjoy Jordan Peterson, where he wasn't getting crazy heavy into politics and social issues and stuff or a lot more of his education and his expertise as a mental health professionals coming through and as somebody who knows a bit about neuroscience and psychology. And it reminded me of the stuff that originally attracted me to his work and not him railing against what this political party is doing or that political party is doing, but hooverman brought that out in him in a pretty good ways. I recommend both of those episodes. I don't remember what the name of the lady that Steven from Diary of a CEO interviewed, but just look for Diary of a CEO and Dopamine. It was like a two and a half hour episode. My girlfriend actually listened to it and recommended it to me.

Dan: 32:41

Was it the woman who wrote Dopamine?

Charles: 32:42

Niche, it was Okay, great book by the way, I have a relationship to it. Yeah, she was excellent. She got into a lot of her personal history and some of the stuff that she went through and the kind of work that she does with people in the addiction medicine space. And she's a smart lady and she did a great job on that interview. And again, hugh Berman, jordan Peterson interview book.

Charles: 33:03

Both of those were worth listening to, so I meant to tell you those personally, but I came up on the podcast listening to so I wanted to. I meant to tell you those personally, but when I came by the podcast, okay. So if you're, if your partner, who's a woman, does not have a lot of friends, try to gently encourage her to seek that out. Really only, if she is dissatisfied with the level or quantity of friends that she has, encourage her to join a women's group, ideally one that's connected to some other interests that she has, and just do what you can to encourage that and certainly don't stand in the way of it, because you should not be threatened by her friendships. And he does get into the the case of what if she has nail cramps?

Charles: 33:45

and look, that's an area where, again, we most guys are threatened by that because we have recollections of how we have felt about our female friends in the past and that makes us a little bit suspicious.

Charles: 34:01

I would say share with your partner the fact that you are uncomfortable if she does, if she has friends in her life of either gender, but especially men that you are concerned are rooting for your relationship to fail so that they have a shot. Just tell her that be like. Look, I I feel like he's the kind of guy that's hoping that you and me fail so that he might have an end. And then just ask her to look at her friendship in that drew those lenses and if she agrees, then ask her to limit her time. And certainly don't go to him with complaints about your relationship. When you guys have problems, don't look for him as a shoulder to cry on about them, right, because, yeah, that can be, that can legitimately feel like a threat to your relationship what was unspoken, which I think is important to realize, though, is that she will go like a threat to your relationship.

Dan: 34:51

What was unspoken, which I think is important to realize, though, is that she will go to her girlfriends about your relationship. Yes, keep that in mind, and she should Especially if you have relationships with them as couples and things like that Just understand that what you're doing in your relationship might actually be translating over and communicated to her friends, who might be some couple friends, which could mean that the wife also could be communicating stuff about your relationship to her husband, which you might be friends with.

Charles: 35:18

Yes, and keep that in mind and endeavor to be the kind of partner to your girlfriend or wife and the kind of friend to her friends that they're rooting for you and not rooting against you. Yes, right, good point. Friend to her friends, that they're rooting for you and not rooting against you. Yes, right, good point. Because, yeah, if she's got a lot of, if your behavior translates to something where a lot of her friends are telling her you deserve better, you can do better, then, yeah, that's going to be, that's going to be a problem, and you'll know like you'll know which friends those are based on their interaction with you.

Charles: 35:52

Yeah, and you should also assume that if your wife is a healthy person who takes her own mental health seriously, she's going to attract similar people in her friend circle, and if she's not, she's going to attract similar people in her friend circle. And yeah, so you should only be scared if you have a reason to be scared. If you have a reason to be scared, you need to be open to the idea that you might not be, you might not have attracted the right person, but you also have been attracted to the right person. Why is that? Because, then, you're not the right person.

Dan: 36:24

I think that's a prompt for you to have a conversation.

Charles: 36:27

It's absolutely sad In terms of addressing your fears or what's making you uncomfortable, that you're scared, that she's communicating to her friends about yeah, and I would, even if you've got, if she's got a male friend that you're jealous of or nervous about, I would and I have propose this thought experiment and say if you if you called him up right now on speakerphone in the car next to me and you said hey, charles and I just had a huge fight.

Charles: 36:57

We've decided to take a break and I'm really upset about it. Can I crash at your place tonight? I don't think you come to spend the night at my house. Is what's going to be the best thing for you or your relationship? Or he's going to say, yeah, pack a bag and come on over, and I wouldn't say ask your partner to actually make that call. But I would bring up the thought experiment to say, if you place this call to him on speaker with me in the car next to you, do you feel 100% confident that he would say what I hope he would say, or do you think he would try to take advantage of Because I think there are a fair number of women that have a male friend in their life that would not say the thing that you would be comfortable hearing if that conversation, if that phone call, was to take place.

Dan: 37:38

And what's interesting is, if you're looking at it from this perspective as well, is that he does mention that when women hang out with each other, they do things that are more intimate than when guys hang out with each other. So I, each other, they do things that are more intimate than what when guys hang out with each other? So I could be wrong, but I feel like it's an easy leap, or not even a leap, to assume that her guy friends are going to behave just like her girlfriends, where sleeping over to a girlfriend's house, not a big deal caring for doing each other's hair and intimate touching, where, in terms of right rubbing their shoulders, things like that is completely platonic when it comes to like, women are aggro to each other, whereas with men it's completely different yes, I would not want my girlfriend having sleepovers with her straight male friend.

Charles: 38:29

I don't want any men listening to this to translate that thought experiment into I'm going to take her phone and text her friend and see how he responds. We're not suggesting that you do anything like that. We're just suggesting if there's a guy in her life that you're feeling a little threatened by or uncomfortable with how intimate their friendship is, just suggest that to her and then count on her to think about it and do the right thing, not some paper you're going to pull off or you're trying to Do. You have a relationship where you feel like you have to snoop through your partner's phone or play any games like that, then you're definitely in the wrong relationship and you should be asking why you're comfortable being in a relationship like that and why she would be interested in being with you if you're that suspicious. I've not been in a relationship where I've played those games and I never will be, because I'd rather be alone than be having to put on a Sherlock Holmes hat and do some kind of detective work on that level. Absolutely not.

Charles: 39:25

Don't be jealous of her friends. Don't ever try to limit or control her contact with her friends. Don't judge or criticize her friends. Don't ever try to limit or control her contact with her friends. Don't judge or criticize her friends. Don't ignore her need for female relationships. Don't assume the worst of her male friends. But when you do feel uncertain or jealous or apprehensive about her friendships, you can tell her that and say, hey, here are the concerns I have about this fellow. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but your intimate friendship with him makes me feel this way, and so do with that what you will. And if she's the right person, she's going to worry more about how you're feeling about her friendship than worrying about how her friend feels about you. For sure. And then also, don't live life where you have no friends, because that will just make her put too much pressure on your relationship with her.

Charles: 40:16

So I like this chapter. I thought it was good, even though it was easy for me to pick out a couple areas where I felt like, okay, docker gottman has some different priorities than I do and that's okay, there's still a lot of good stuff to gather from it. But I do feel like, yeah, he is emphasizing some things I wouldn't emphasize if I was writing this book. But nobody's behind. Charles' book on men understanding women Not yet. All right, thanks, dan, we will talk next. We're going to go into a new section of the book Loving a Woman for a Lifetime. Chapter 13 will be Is she the One? And we'll get into that next. Thanks, sounds good. All right, bye. Thanks for listening to the entire episode, dan, and I really appreciate it. Please visit our website, mindfullymasculinecom for all of our episodes and updates. Thanks and take care.