The White Lotus: Testosterone in Paradise

In this kickoff to our series on The White Lotus Season 3, we dive headfirst into the tangled world of masculinity on vacation. From Saxon’s hypersexual posturing to the simmering tension between brothers, fathers, and friend-zoned security guards, we unpack how manhood is performed, distorted, and quietly unraveling at a luxury resort in Thailand. 

Is Patrick Schwarzenegger’s character cosplaying as an alpha? Why is everyone either flexing or imploding? And what does “power” even mean when everyone’s rich, hot, and hiding something? 

We’re not recapping. We’re dissecting the gender dynamics, status games, and inner lives of men pretending not to be insecure. Welcome to The White Lotus: Testosterone in Paradise.

Chapters

• 0:00 First Look at White Lotus S3
• 6:41 Introducing the Ratliff Family
• 16:45 Saxon: Performative Masculinity in Action
• 23:54 Family Dynamics and Sexual Repression
• 33:06 Rick: Anger Masking Deeper Issues
• 43:02 Thai Resort Staff and Nice Guy Syndrome
• 50:56 Wrapping Up Initial Character Analysis

Transcript

Charles: 0:00

Saxon Patrick Schwarzenegger's character, though there's some interesting stuff going on with him, he does seem to be playing a character I mean not only for the TV show, but this character seems to be playing a character Like being hypersexual, hypermasculine, hypersuccessful. Seems like it's really important to him. Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles Okay. This episode starts a new series for Dan and I, like it's really important to him. Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles Okay. This episode starts a new series for Dan and I.

Charles: 0:27

We're going to take a deep look at masculinity through the lens of an HBO show, the White Lotus season three. This isn't a recap show. We're not here to speculate on plot twists or point out Easter eggs. Instead, we're using each episode as a starting point to look at how masculinity plays out in relationships, in silence, in conflict and in the moments that push the characters to grow.

Charles: 0:50

White Lotus has always been a show about really privilege and identity, but in this season, masculinity really takes the center stage. These male characters are unraveling, posing, seeking and sometimes disappearing into roles they don't fully understand, and we think that says a lot about modern manhood. In today's episode, we're diving into the season premiere and how it sets the tone, introducing characters who were either clinging to old scripts or fumbling toward something new. We'll talk about repression, posturing, emotional inheritance and what it means to be a man in a world that keeps shifting under your feet. We will be discussing the story as it unfolds in each episode, so if you don't want to be spoiled, pause this right now and watch season three, episode one same spirits, new forms. Thanks and enjoy good morning, charles how you doing.

Charles: 1:41

I'm doing well, dan thanks. How are you?

Dan: 1:42

I am well have you have you Dan, thanks, how are you?

Charles: 1:43

I am well, have you? Have you had enough of dating? Essentials for men.

Dan: 1:48

No, no, I was waiting for let's go for chapter 11.

Charles: 1:52

Here we are. No we I have had enough, so we're going to stop for now. We completed the first section of that book and I decided we should take a break, and the break that I decided we should take is we're going to talk about masculinity and White Lotus, season three. I watched the first White Lotus. I think I started watching it toward the first season. I mean, I started watching it toward the end of the first season where it was kind of one of those things that people were talking about a lot on social media. But I was just busy, I didn't feel like getting into a new show, and the night before the end I'm pretty sure that one released one per week. I think they've done one per week on all three seasons. I think that's kind of hbo max's preferred way to do it, which I can understand. I, on one hand, I like when netflix seems to be the only one that's really just dropping everything on day one, where the other streaming services seem to have switched to more of a one episode per week model.

Dan: 2:53

Well, let me just give you a little lowdown on some of the more recent Netflix stuff. For the dating shows yeah, I'm very important. Yeah, well, they'll do like two or three and then they'll pause for like a week. So you get a little bit. It's a hybrid, right. You get a little bit of that binge, but then they hold off and now it's like, oh, a real dramatic moment. They cut it off and you know they're gonna do what. So they'll do that for like two or three times during the show and then they'll wait another one. For the finale.

Charles: 3:19

That would drive me crazy. I like a more predictable schedule of either either every Wednesday we drop a new episode or we're going to drop them all at once. And here you go.

Dan: 3:27

I mean, I know some people refuse to watch anything until it's all done because they know themselves. Yeah, I can understand that.

Charles: 3:33

But yeah, so I watched the first season toward the end of the first seasons when I started. So I think probably it released before I started watching, like all of them were probably out. By the time I got to the last one it had already aired the second season I did not watch until really just a couple months ago. I just wasn't.

Dan: 3:52

Just like ran out of stuff to watch. You're like all right, what's?

Charles: 3:55

left I was like, oh, I guess I didn't watch the. I don't think people were talking about the second season as much buzz at least as far as what I saw on social media. So I was less motivated, didn't feel, I didn't feel like I was losing out on conversations and stuff with season two like I would have been with season one and then. But the thing I noticed about season two after I watched it I was kind of bummed out. I mean the way the characters behaved with each other. Yeah, it was. I did not find it very life-affirming, particularly the way the dudes behaved.

Dan: 4:26

Sure, and but that there's a taste of that. In every season there is where right it's, I think it's very similar characters on both sides, both men and women, a lot of stereotypes.

Charles: 4:36

They're kind of getting played out and seeing how they interact with each other, and I think that's one of the reasons why we like yeah, yeah, it's interesting the I mean I was really into mad men and looking back on mad men there were no, like there were no heroes and there were no really sympathetic characters on mad men. It's like roger come on, he was roger was. I was gonna say roger was the only, I mean roger. Roger was a bit of a shit but but he was very authentic with his shittiness. Where don. It's like there were cool things about don, the way he was constantly lying to his family and lying to himself about who he was. I mean it was.

Dan: 5:11

But that's what kept me watching. Yeah, it's just like holy Cause. How far is he going to go, right?

Charles: 5:15

Yeah, when with Roger. It was like okay, you pretty much know what you're getting with Roger and yeah, His lines were yes and yeah, his lines were, yes, I like Roger, but with Don it was like man.

Charles: 5:24

This is compelling, but it's also like what a shitty person. And so, yeah, that I think that's what I felt about season two, but so season three has not finished airing yet. I think the last episode that came out as of recording this episode was episode seven. So we're getting toward the end, but we are going to try to go, we're going to cover, we're going to talk about the men, the male characters of the show on an episode by episode basis, and we're going to make an effort to not spoil anything about the characters or about the plot past the episode that we're currently talking about.

Charles: 6:00

So in this episode of our show, we're going to talk about episode one, where everybody's just kind of getting introduced and you're learning who the characters are going to be this season, and we're going to make an effort not to say anything about them. That would spoil anything. So if you're watching the show, as you're listening to the episodes of our show, we're not going to ruin anything for you, but if you do care about being spoiled, watch episode one of white lotus, season three, before you listen to this podcast, because we are going to talk about some of the stuff that happens and some of the characters. So this one is set in thailand. This is the only this is really the first one where I've looked at it and I've thought, yeah, I don't think I'd want to go there is it the lizards falling from the trees or the well that happens in south florida.

Charles: 6:42

I go to South Florida all the time. Hold it up in South Florida, the iguanas will start falling out of the trees. The first season was in Hawaii, then the second season was in Sicily, which was like okay, that looks pretty cool. I think I'd enjoy visiting that one. But of the parts of Asia that I'd like to visit, it's not really. It just doesn't have a lot of appeal to me. Not really, it just doesn't have a lot of appeal to me. Have you ever been to that part of the world? No, I've not, neither have I. I've not been to Asia yet, but I'd love to go to Tokyo and while I'm there, I'd like to hike Mount Fuji. Singapore looks really interesting to me. I'd kind of like to visit that you have been to. It's not the Far East, but you've been to Dubai, right?

Dan: 7:19

I've been to Dubai and Armenia, so it's. I mean, that's Asia, so it's, but it's not that far east.

Charles: 7:26

So yeah, it's not like China, japan, yeah.

Dan: 7:29

Or Australia. I've never been all the way over there.

Charles: 7:31

Either side I would love to go. Yeah, I think the parts of I mean, I guess I would like to go to like Fiji or something like that. That looks nice, so that would be considered. The is that the Far East, or is that more, I don't know, pacific Rim, I think it's.

Dan: 7:46

Pacific rings a bell. When I hear Fiji, I'm always thinking so.

Charles: 7:50

Yeah, but Thailand does not feel appealing to me, and so this lot, I mean resort that as nice as what they're showing. I'm sure that.

Dan: 7:57

And do you like Thai?

Charles: 7:59

food. I love Thai food, huh, yeah.

Dan: 8:01

Yeah, I mean that's the thing, or at least the American version of it Exactly. I was just about to ask is like do we get, is that the same food that just better over there, or is it kind of like Chinese food, where it's like it's Americanized and that's not what they're really eating over there? That's a good question.

Charles: 8:13

I might look. I'm guessing it the corner. I think I've been there, yeah, but is it really Thai food or is it American Thai food? That's my question.

Dan: 8:28

Well, that's the thing too. It's also, but there are authentic. I mean, there's Thai people that own and run the place and are cooking.

Charles: 8:40

But again, they don't want Shanghai chai Kitsudor Exactly, and so I wonder if. But it's freaking delicious, yeah, no, it's really good. I wonder if there is a, if there's a restaurant in our area that has a reputation for being the most authentic Thai.

Dan: 8:54

Speaking of which, it's called Thai-licious. So if you want to sponsor the show, hit us up.

Charles: 8:59

Yeah, I've definitely eaten there before and it is pretty good, it's pretty tasty. So, anyway, I wanted to go through and talk about the guys in this show and I'd like to find out a little bit. I think mike white is the name of the creator, though I wonder what his background is and because he definitely has an interesting take on all of his characters. And we're not going to ignore the female characters because they're not interested. That group of three women that are together on their friends trip is really interested to watch their dynamics and how they relate to each other. But we're just not going to cover them. We're going to, we're going to mainly focus on what the guys are going through and how they're reacting to their circumstances, and I also like the angle of how they feel like they should behave when they are far away from home. And they're in this, they're in this very different setting. Does that give you license to behave worse? Does it inspire you behave better? What effect does it have? And I guess part of that is why they're there too, where all of the all the characters seem to have an agenda with why they're this resort.

Charles: 10:01

We'll start with the first one, which is zion. When the episode opens up. Zion is the son of a gal from the first season who worked at the hotel in hawaii, and she's visiting the one in thailand, because I guess they're known for their wellness protocols or whatever, and she's a massage therapist, I believe. So he's visiting his mom and he's having his first meditation lesson. What a way to open the series. I know, yeah, they cut, they do something like that every year. It's like, okay, some, there's some disasters, some deaths, some carnage, and we're going to show you that first, but this I thought was the best of all three opening seasons where I think the first one, they were just taking one, like one person died and they were taking, I think, the one body away, right.

Charles: 10:47

The second season was you started seeing bodies like showing up at the beach, right, like at least one, I think it was multiple bodies that were showing up at the beach, yeah, and then this one. There's a. It opens up with a mass shooting while he's trying to.

Dan: 11:05

But yeah, but that's the thing it's like. I mean, it's a very I think a lot of people watch the show, have tried meditation, and so they they understand the process and how it feels to be in that space and and she and the meditation instructor, she's basically very, very calming, peaceful voice.

Charles: 11:15

A therapist and a meditation instructor.

Dan: 11:17

Yeah, she's amazing and so. So it's really easy to kind of get in that space where, like Zion was there meditating with her, and easy to kind of get in that space where, like zion was there meditating with her, and then here's a thing in the background and then, perfect timing, when she's like ignore all the sounds from the outside, but it was like it's not quite off it gets louder, exactly, and then it gets louder and then he's just like no, that's a gunshot man like and like he, he snaps into it and then it goes from super like chill, calm, relaxing, to like a vietnam movie, like like a Vietnam war movie, where he jumps in like the bog and the rice fields and he's like up to his waist in water and he's like slogging through the and hearing like gunshots all over the place. So that was like such a contrast. It was like Holy cow, what's, yeah, what's going on.

Charles: 11:58

I really liked that too, I they really pulled me in from the first second with like Holy crap, what's going on. And they really pulled me in from the first second with like holy crap, what's going on. And then, yeah, then watching the series unfold, like wondering, as you get to know the characters more and more, it's like, okay, so who's going to be involved in this? Who are the victims, who are the perpetrators? How's it going to shake out? So yeah, but he I mean, yeah, from what we've seen of Zion in the first episode, he seems like a sweet, sincere kid who's just excited to be there to visit his mom. Yep, and we haven't seen a whole lot of him yet, so there's not a whole lot we can. He come.

Charles: 12:29

He comes in multiple episodes later where you see, okay, when does he arrive to visit his mom and meet his mom and reunite with his mom? That comes down the road. But what we've seen of him so far is he just seems like a normal kind of chill dude. So so let's talk about the family, the Ratliff family. Timothy is the dad played by Lucius Malfoy, jason Isaacs, who I think I first saw him in the Patriot. He was the bad guy in the Patriot. That was sort of the villain to Mel Gibson's hero and he was on the British side of the army. He's a red coat and Mel Gibson was one of the Minut hero and he was on the British side of the army.

Charles: 13:06

He's a red coat and Mel Gibson was a one of the minute men and he was a really great villain in that movie and so I don't need to spoil that movie. But yeah, he was a bad guy and he was a very convincing bad guy. And then I loved him as Lucius Malfoy. I thought that was perfect casting when they they made him Draco's dad in the Harry Potter series, so he plays a guy that is in some kind of finance, I believe. I believe he's.

Charles: 13:32

What we've learned about him in the first episode is that he started some sort of a fund with some other guy and then in the first episode he gets a call from a reporter from, I think, the wall street journal, saying hey, did you work with so-and-so?

Charles: 13:40

We've got some questions about the, the fund that you started, and he immediately goes into oh, I haven't talked to him in years, I haven't seen him in years. Send me an email with your questions and I'll get back to you when I can. I'm on vacation with my family, which is kind of interesting to me, because at the beginning, when they're like, hey, this is a cell phone free resort, let's put your phones in this bag, this guy's whole family was pretty much like no, we're not on board with that, we're not going to do it, yeah. And the person from the staff was like okay, well, just don't use your phones in in public air, public spaces, cause everybody else has put their phones away. And then, as soon as he starts feeling a little bit of the pressure from this reporter, he's like I'm on vacation with my family. I.

Dan: 14:20

But then. But so, and what's interesting, though, is he comes back and his daughter and his wife are kind of giving him shit about taking a call, and he goes and they ask him like well, dad, what was that? And he's like, oh, it was nothing. And like, well, if it was nothing, why did you take the call, right? And he's like, well, it was something, but I handled it. And now it's nothing. Yeah, exactly, and it'll be nothing. I mean, it kind of brings out his character a little bit like he needs to be the leader, the family man taking care of business type of thing. He feels obligated to kind of do that. He's also obligated to, or feels obligated to, shield his family from all the craziness that his world at work is.

Charles: 14:57

Right, yeah, to some degree, although the oldest son, saxon, works with him. So it's like, yeah, it's probably a little harder to, and maybe up until that call he got from the reporter, maybe everything that's ever happened with his career has been just kind of, yeah, little things pop up, I take care of them, I deal with them, no big deal. But you do have to worry about if you're working with your son and anything stressful or unexpected or if anything happens at work that the wall street journal thinks is worth calling you about. How do you maintain that everything's fine, everything's calm, veneer? Well, it's like okay, but my kid is in the office, my son's in the office next to me.

Dan: 15:41

And he knows a lot of what's going on. You know, it was just enough. I ask questions kind of easily, poke holes in any type of facade that I might be putting up Exactly, yeah Cause he knows I get the.

Charles: 15:52

The oldest son went to the same college. They both went to Duke, I believe, and they both got probably their degrees in the same field, yeah, and so yeah, he's probably not as experienced and knowledgeable as his dad, but he knows enough to say if in the first episode and honestly I don't think even from the first episode to the seventh episode I don't think they've gotten really technical about exactly what the family does, just kind of they're in finance, they're involved in some sort of investment funds, but they don't really get into the technical stuff of what they do or how they do it. But I would imagine that if they did, if the oldest son starts hearing stuff that doesn't make sense, he's going to be like this doesn't make sense.

Dan: 16:31

Well I mean yeah, I don't Okay, that's a waiter, it's okay, all right. I was going to. I was going to talk about a little bit more as a son how the son compared can under like understands what's going on.

Charles: 16:39

But basically, yeah, I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say what pops up with this wall street journal reporter in the first episode. The resolution is not oh, that was nothing. It truly goes away and truly turns into nothing. We know from watching dramatic tv shows oh, they're going to build and it's going to get bigger and bigger. Yeah, chekhov's gun.

Dan: 17:14

I mean, it goes to show like the son he's arrogant with everybody except his dad. Yes, like that's the. And I want to move on to him next and talk about his arrogance. He's right, right, yeah, patrick Schwarzenegger. Yes, ironically, right yeah.

Charles: 17:27

Yeah, it is funny to hear him talking. If it's a chopper, any references he drops about bulking up, getting bigger to his little brother, it's like. I don't like it because it's overshortening.

Dan: 17:37

Yeah, and he looks like him too.

Charles: 17:41

I feel like he's got a lot of the similar features. He looks more like his mom. He might Reed Fiverr is his mom, right? Yeah, the mom is it might be. Let's check that real quick. Or is it a maid? No, that is the face. Uh, the stars. Two years, okay, all right, he. Yeah, he looks a bit like schwarzenegger, but he looks a lot more like the mom I'm seeing.

Dan: 17:59

I'm seeing a lot of similar hairline and and and some of his, I think, maybe his eyes and his jawline. To me there was a lot of times where he looked like a younger arnold schwarzenegger's mother. Times where he looked like a younger Arnold Schwarzenegger yeah, Schreier's his mother. Okay, so he looked like like from Pumping Iron and stuff a younger Arnold.

Charles: 18:15

Schwarzenegger. Yeah, it's tough thinking about Arnold as he appears on TV now and interviews and stuff. He's a much older guy If you look at some of his younger stuff. I think he looks pretty much like Patrickrick yeah, a lot thinking back to, yeah, how he looks at terminator before he takes on any damage to his face. Okay, he does, he does. There's more there, and I'm glad that patrick, the actor that plays saxon he's not an insane bodybuilder shape either is he?

Charles: 18:42

right guy. You look at him he's like, okay, that guy's in good shape, he works out, but he's not in right, he's not in arnold schwarzenegger in the 80s shape, right. And so I and I think I don't know if he has any interest in getting that big. Or I mean, really these days if you want to be an actor in like dramatic TV shows, you don't have to be Marvel superhero big.

Dan: 19:01

No, but I feel he probably has the capacity to do it if he wants, right. That's the thing is, that's what they get paid for, right? They bulk up or they get back or they gain a whole bunch of weight.

Charles: 19:09

He did say I saw an interview.

Dan: 19:11

But he's got a good starting point, so I feel like he's kind of positioning himself well for yeah, exactly, to go in the direction.

Charles: 19:16

Right? Yeah, he did say they were in Thailand for seven months shooting White Lotus, which I felt like a little bit long for. I mean know that it feels that way to me I don't know enough to say that it is or not but that he said he put on 25 pounds while they were in Thailand shooting. Like he said you'll, if you look at scenes where I don't have my shirt on from the beginning of the series to the end of the series, you will see that I put on weight. Okay, I don't know if good weight, I don't know. I don't know if he's built in a little bit of a gut or if there wasn't anything to do out there. If he'd work out, maybe he got more muscular.

Dan: 19:54

Or eat and party, yeah, yeah.

Charles: 19:56

Or you don't know, yeah, if you're partying, then you've got to get a little bit of a gut going. But yeah, he did mention that they were there for seven months and that he did put on some weight, and then Jason Isaacs also mentioned that I don't know. I'm looking forward for some more stories to come out, but I think there was a little bit of heat on set between some of the actors. I think some got to be really close friends and some did not get along at all, and it'll be interesting to hear more about that.

Charles: 20:20

So, yeah, saxon patrick schwarzenegger's character though there's some interesting stuff going on with him, he does seem, he does seem to be playing a character I mean not only for the tv show, but this character seems to be playing a character like being hyper, hyper sexual, hyper masculine, hyper successful, seems like it's really important to him, which, you know, is not all that surprising. You basically take his dad and take off a bunch of years and bump up the testosterone, yeah, and that's probably a lot how his dad acted when he was that age too, where very concerned about status, very concerned about image, very concerned about appearance, and then there's also some weird stuff going on sexually with him and the way that he talks to and about his siblings I always just have to ask you about that, because that it was well done, because it was that seemed a little awkward not, yeah, extremely awkward, but it's like, why are you talking about that?

Dan: 21:22

your sister is hot. She hasn't been laid yet. Yeah, and to like his other brother about that and then they're like lying in bed. If you remember that towards the end of the episode and yeah, he's like the brother the saxon was worried about how am I gonna masturbate while you're in the room and he pauses and there's like a pause where, before he gets up to do anything, it's kind of like he's waiting for his brother almost to give him permission to masturbate in front of him. That's how I took that off, yeah.

Charles: 21:49

So like, yeah, to explain what's going on there, what's going on here. So they have the family has a suite that's three bedrooms, a master and two more bedrooms. And so the older brother was like the younger brother's name is lachlan or lock lock locky, yeah. And the older brother's like okay, you're bunking with me. And the sister was like or you could you know first it was the sister was like okay, you're bunking with me.

Dan: 22:11

And the sister was like or you could no, first it was.

Charles: 22:12

The sister was like no, I think it's the way I said it. It was like I guess you're bunking with me or you just basically stated it and then the sister was like or you could sleep in my room.

Charles: 22:22

And that was a little bit weird too, like she was a little, I don't think, for me they couldn't be inviting room with her because they all have the other rooms, have two beds, oh right. And so yeah, I mean yeah, if the sister and the younger brother are close, then I don't think it's that weird for her to say you can sleep in my room I just thought it was odd that they were fighting over where the kid was sleeping.

Dan: 22:43

That was the younger sister and the older brother.

Charles: 22:45

The weirdest part was the older brother being like oh, you can't sleep with her right right, and they're everybody's like. Why not? And he's like because of genitals.

Dan: 22:53

And then the mom's like don't say that's a bad word, yes, genitals I was that he was interesting. So that shows that, like sex has probably been very repressed in their family and that I my. My indication then is like that's why there's some dysfunction going on I thought the same thing.

Charles: 23:07

I thought if either either there's suppression going on, there's guilt, there's shame or I mean, and in addition to that there's probably there's a weird, there's weird energy about sex in this family, for sure, yeah, and so it's like okay, and again, they're not going to drop stuff like that in the first episode unless they're going to explore it later on. And yeah, it's yeah between saxon thinks he has to talk to every pretty girl and kind of hit on every pretty girl in the first episode that he sees there's the three women that are on their friend's trip. He, he strikes up a conversation with them for really no reason. And we've talked about the podcast on the podcast before about how uncomfortable it is to just start saying something to someone when you really don't have any reason to start talking to them.

Charles: 23:51

And every time Saxon talks to a girl, it's a, it's an ice cold pickup where he's. He's basically saying I'm going to initiate an interaction with you because I'm interested in you. I know nothing about you other than the way that you look, and that's enough reason for me, cause he's not. He's not doing what we taught, he's not being friendly to everybody, he's not striking up conversations with old people or dudes. He is literally just he's sinking missile on attractive women Right, and because that is his mindset and that's his energy, it comes across as, if not creepy, certainly heavy handed.

Dan: 24:23

And it's funny that right before he, right after that scene where he's talking to the three women and they basically just give him a cold shoulder and just give him one word answers yes, and let me interrupt one of the things.

Charles: 24:35

He's like you should get in the pool. The temperature, right, that that's a weird thing, that like you should get in the pool, like it's yeah, it's. So I mean the guy who's writing whether it's mike white or somebody who's obviously the writing staff he's writing a great young male, attractive, rich, pushy dude, right, and I really enjoy the way that he's like, yeah, that's exactly how you would expect that guy to act.

Dan: 25:00

My favorite line, I think, out of the whole episode, was then, after he gets shot down, he turns over to Rick's girlfriend and is like how does somebody get a drink around here? And she goes, you walk up to the bar and you order.

Charles: 25:12

And then she turns over. And then she turns over to the back. I know like literally gives him the cold shoulder.

Dan: 25:16

Yeah, but to his credit, like into the character, he laughs and he laughs it off. And then he turns to his brother and he's like it's a numbers game, which is very appropriate because he's in finance was a nice little tie in there together.

Charles: 25:32

Yes and yeah, he and it is a numbers game. He's right about that and he seems to be, at least when it comes to the way he talks to women. He seems to be fairly outcome independent, but on the other hand, he does the way he does talk about sex frequently with his little brother and you can tell he's kind of. It's a mix of trying to mentor him but also trying to. It's not. I'm going to mentor you because I care about you and I want you to know things that maybe I didn't know when I was your age. It's a and I, my status, is very important. I want you to look, look at me like I'm important and I'm successful. So it does speak to me.

Charles: 26:07

Mostly I'm going to push this fall. So it does seem to be. Mostly I'm going to push this. I'm going to push my opinions on you and my unsolicited advice. Because at no point does the younger brother at least in the first episode, I don't think at all at no point does he go to his older brother and say, hey, give me some advice on how I should be acting, or lifting or any, or making my decision about where to go. He never is asking the older brother for advice, it's's no, let's just unsolicited.

Dan: 26:31

But at the same time, though, he is also does ask a couple of follow-up questions, and so he's, I think, not verbally saying that he's interested in that information, but I think he is not pushing him away, saying I'm not interested in this information in terms of changing the subject, whatever he's asking, and he's staying involved in the conversation. So I think he's keeping the door open, and, knowing how pushy the older brother is, he's like all right, well, door's still open, I'm going to still keep pushing this information to kind of meet my agenda and make me feel good about myself Right and I, yeah, I appreciate the younger brother's position because it is very.

Charles: 27:11

I mean, most of us, when we receive unsolicited advice, we're not willing to say, hey, thanks, but I'm not looking for advice right now. I mean, that is something that really it takes training, therapy, whatever to be willing to say to somebody who's just offered you advice to say, okay, I appreciate that you want to help me, but I'm not looking for your advice right now.

Dan: 27:30

I think a lot of times because I'm the one giving that advice unsolicited.

Dan: 27:34

So I think usually I think most of the time I hope anyway, my impression is that I only give for a short period of time. So I feel like if I had been, if I kind of keep pushing the agenda, then it might give somebody the opportunity or the need to say, okay, that's enough, like, but I at least I hope, and for the most part, when I've gotten the advice, it's never been so long where, like I'm getting tortured because I see, hey, this person, it's a. I look at it as a kind gesture. They care about me, they've put some thought and time into giving me some assistance and some help, so more, and I think most people look at it that way, I'm guessing. So, unless they're being tortured, I don't think anybody is going to be like all right, thanks for the unsolicited advice, unless it's like a stranger, somebody you don't know If it's coming from a friend or family member. I think we're a little bit more tolerant of that. I don't know, but at least from my experience.

Charles: 28:27

As rewatch the episodes, I'll ask you to look at the daughter's face when she gets advice from either the brothers or the parents, and I think she's definitely in a position where she's hearing advice she doesn't want to hear, but she's not unwilling, but she's not willing to say, knocking off, I don't want to hear it. Right, and the dynamic there when you're dependent on your parents, it's very hard to tell them and you're around them all the time hey, when you're dependent on your parents, it's very hard to tell them and you're around them all the time hey, I don't want your advice. That point's been building up for a while, so absolutely.

Dan: 28:56

Absolutely. I could see at some point feeling that urge to be like all right, cut the shit Right.

Charles: 29:01

Yeah, and I wonder we'll see more conversations in the future episodes between the two brothers and I'll be on the lookout for that, as is Saxon hammering him with unsolicited advice during the whole show. And what kind of reaction is the young actor that plays the younger brother having to that? Like what are the nonverbals? But the younger brother? Not a ton has developed with him so far, except he's the baby of the family. Well, I don't even know if he's technically younger than the.

Dan: 29:29

No, he's not the middle, I don't I thought he was in the middle.

Charles: 29:32

He gives baby, child vibes to me because the daughter, the posture too. And yeah, I mean women are more mature at that age anyway, the daughter seems to be more on board with what she wants out of life, too, than the younger brother is.

Dan: 29:44

Yeah, so, and that's why I think kind of wavers in his loyalty yeah between the outlaw's sister and the older brother.

Charles: 29:51

Yeah for sure. It looks like he's dealing with a question of where am I going to go to college? His mother.

Dan: 29:57

Oh yeah, everything in his life is a choice. Right Like yeah, unc, right, yeah or right.

Charles: 30:02

Yeah, I guess the mother went to UNC, chapel Hill and she's a Tar Heel and the dad went to duke mother's hysterical and well, that's something else to talk about which, when we get into the dynamics of this family, they're all. They're all living with a person who's addicted to drugs, that the mom and her lorazepam situation. I mean, even just in the first episode, the way that she's trying to use it to, I guess, offset jet lag or whatever. She's falling asleep in public places. And then she, at the end of the episode, she talks about how she got her second wind back, which I think was a, I think was an effort to initiate romance with the husband, but then she says don't worry, I took a lorazepam.

Dan: 30:44

Well, because he said oh no, yeah exactly.

Charles: 30:47

He's the one who basically I've got a second wind. And his response was oh, no, yeah so.

Dan: 30:51

And she's like don't worry, I took lupus, I don't know if his, oh no. So that shows, I think, that again sexual dysfunction Maybe I didn't know for sure.

Charles: 30:58

Was she initiating sex or was she? I think I saw Could have been. Oh, you're a hassle to be around when you're, but at that point.

Dan: 31:12

I feel that as a partner, you've got an opportunity then to kind of help shape what she's going to do with that energy. Right, and so if you express sexual desire, she might be using that energy for sexual desire. If you expect for going on a tour somewhere or whatever, then maybe she want to to do that. Either way, there's some sort of connection that she doesn't have with him. Oh for sure, I feel like that's yeah, that's that, and he pushed that off, yeah, whatever kind of connection that was going to be sexual or not yeah, I wonder.

Charles: 31:39

It feels like just in the first episode we'll talk about how this develops throughout the series. He strikes me. His role in the family seems to be on the decision maker and on the paycheck and he does not seem very connected to anybody else in the family. It seemed like he goes to work and he makes a bunch of money, and I mean really, because everybody who's at this resort has a bunch of money. Poor people aren't going to this resort, at least not poor americans or poor europeans, right, the only poor people we see are people who work there. But yeah, he strikes me, yeah, I don't know what his, what he sees his job in the family to be other than bringing home the bacon, which apparently he seems to be pretty good at. But and look, there's a lot of dads that feel like that's their sole role is to pay the bills.

Dan: 32:28

I mean. Another part towards the end is after he sees Rick again and he comes back and complains to his wife in bed and says I saw that asshole, he was an asshole again. And she goes well, he's just probably jealous of you because you've got it all, You've got a beautiful wife. And then there's like an uncomfortable pause. You've got a beautiful wife oh, yes, I do the most beautiful. So it's like she needed to remind him. So you're, I think you're spot on with that.

Charles: 32:54

It's just like he, his job is his life at that point, yeah, yeah, and I think, yeah, that that was an interesting dynamic where family comes second. Yeah, if, yeah, for sure, and yeah, so let's talk about Rick. Rick is the most interesting character to me. I mean I like Walt Goggins as an actor. I think he's great in just about everything. He played Shane on the shield. Did you watch the shield on FX? No, yeah, so that was a really good cop show. Okay, had one of the best series finales that I've ever seen. I'd put it up there with all good things. The star Trek, the next generation finale of it was really good and, yes, walton goggins played shane and then he had a big role in the show justified as well, which I'd seen most of justified. I don't think I finished watching the whole series. It was good as well.

Charles: 33:40

He I've seen memes about him recently where it's like man, have you ever seen a guy with a more perfect name? It's like you look at that guy's face, you're like that's walton goggins and that name fits really well. Yeah, and yeah, so he. So he's an older guy. I'd say he's probably what a couple years older than us as character. I don't know in real life how old he is. Let's check and see If you had to guess. Do you think he's older than us or younger than us? Older, I put him at like 55. All right, 53. Yeah, 53. So he's got six years on me and seven on me, so that's cool yeah.

Charles: 34:14

All right, but I think they've made him look older. I mean, on this series he looks a bit strung out. I mean he's trashy and he looks strung out and stressed for sure. And he's dating a younger gal and he's on this vacation with her in Thailand at this expensive resort. But almost from the get-go you get the impression either he doesn't want to be there or he's got some other agenda for being there. Because he is. I mean he's downright rude to his girlfriend, like non-stop rude, like I don't see him being sweet to her at all. In the first episode she keeps trying to not bless her. She's really trying to get him. She likes being around the guy, but man, he is just miserable.

Dan: 34:55

Yeah, and the problem is I think she's coming from the other extreme, like, oh, you should love this and love that and there's so much joy, and I feel like that's just going to push somebody who's in that position in In the opposite direction. It's just, it was a little too much. She's coming from as miserable as he is. She's super full of joy and love and everything, and so I know I've been on the his side of things at times.

Charles: 35:20

I've been on vacations.

Dan: 35:22

It just makes it worse when you see that joy. Oh, you've been on vacation with that too.

Charles: 35:27

Where I've been, I've been feeling miserable. Miserable, I mean, yeah, I haven't had what we'll, what we'll see is such a. I mean he's got a rock solid agenda for being where he is and why he's there. But I haven't had that. But I've been on vacations before where I was like man, I just I feel miserable, I don't, I'm not happy and yeah, trying, I mean putting somebody else through that is brutal and yeah, I feel bad. Yeah, I feel bad for her.

Charles: 35:51

I feel real bad for her where she's. She seems to love him so much and she's so positive and trying to make it a good experience for both of them. And he's just like, nope, not interested, and he's not telling her what's bothering him. He's not giving her any, any view into what's going on. He's literally shooting her down because he's like you're a machine gun with the questions, like that was one of the lines, and he's like cut it out, kind of thing. And I think yeah, gave her uh, do you ever stop at some point? Something, something like that, and it's just like dude, I mean this is not, she's resilient, she's like this place is beautiful.

Dan: 36:22

Thank you for like treating us to go and everything like like right after him being an asshole yeah she was like still extra sweet to him I'll be curious to see as things develop.

Charles: 36:31

And now again, I've watched seven episodes as a recreational viewer and I've watched one episode as a okay, I'm going to talk about this. I wonder, as we watch the other episodes in preparation for other episodes of our podcast, what will I be able to pick up about these guys and the way that they're relating to the women and children in their life. That's like, oh, because it is very different. I mean, you and I've had that experience with just reading the books that we read. It's like, okay, we read it once to like, oh, this is a cool self-help book, I wonder what I might pick up. And now it's like, okay, we're gonna read it again and we're gonna be prepared to talk about it for an hour per chapter.

Charles: 37:05

And you do pick up a lot more. This is the first time we've really done this with a TV show, a fiction TV series. So I'm curious to see what else is going to jump out at me as I kind of watch it through this completely different, you know, mindset. But yeah, he is. Yeah, I see it was a very interesting character, but I'm all pissed off at him, sure.

Dan: 37:24

I right. So I saw them really develop his character really quickly on the boat ride over, when he's sitting and he lights up a cigarette next to the dad and the dad's like, hey, could you just take it somewhere else? Like not stop smoking, but could you move because the smoke's bothering me, yeah, and then he doesn't budge and so it's just. And then the son comes over, saxon comes over, and he's just like put it out, like the son, just like. So it shows the arrogance of the son, or whatever. And then Rick stands up about to like fight the guy and it's Patrick Schwarzenegger. He's not exactly like Arnold, but he's tall and he's still pretty wide, like he's a big guy, and his girlfriend pulls him back down and it just goes to show like I looked at it and I'm like, okay, he is looking for trouble, right, like he clearly is. He's being a jerk on purpose, like he could have just easily like walked to the other side of the boat and finished a cigarette over there, but he stayed in it.

Charles: 38:14

Yeah.

Dan: 38:14

He stayed in that and escalated the con.

Charles: 38:17

Yeah.

Dan: 38:17

So he's definitely feeling some negative emotions about something and I think he's trying to express that and get that out in some way, and maybe getting his ass kicked or maybe getting no fight is not really the way he should be going about doing, but maybe that's all you know.

Charles: 38:34

Yeah, but what I mean? What do we know about people, and guys in particular, that display that kind of behavior? He's feeling afraid or insecure about something. Because you don't behave that way about something, I mean, I would say I mean it feels like a he's afraid of something or he is yeah, there's something that he's afraid of and he's he's not comfortable feeling that way internally, so his external behavior has to be I'm a guy who's not afraid of anything.

Dan: 39:04

I go to the another perspective, similar, but it's just like hurt people, hurt people, right. And so I feel like, yeah, he's hurting in some way and that's, that's the tools that they have at that point too, right. And it's just like, okay, this is the people who need the most love, express love in the worst ways, right.

Charles: 39:24

And so it's so. Yeah, one of the things I thought about talking about when I was watching that scene was how would you have handled if you were sitting on the boat with the guy who was smoking and some one of the characters made a reference to there's no smoking on the boat. One of the things I didn't like about what's his name Ratliff, timothy, the father, the make of the face and the wave in the hand. That seemed a little passive, aggressive. Yeah, it's all sad too. It's like, okay, so I would have gone up and left, gone to a different part of the boat. Yeah, I think I would have done that. There's a bit, is a big boat? Yeah, right, so if he's not gonna leave enough, yeah, and you're, and it's an open, it's not like you're in a small waiting room where somebody lights up the cigarette. You're outside, you're on a boat. It's probably move a few feet over. Is there a situation where you would have said, hey, could you put your cigarette out? I probably would not have, because I don't think it would bother me.

Dan: 40:11

I mean I've been late about a heater. The only time is if he was intentionally like blowing it in my face or my wife's face at that point, then I'm gonna say something. But otherwise I would have been like I'm just gonna move, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't even a complete stranger, like if I had known him or met him, had some sort of friendly conversation beforehand and I, I might, I might have at that point but otherwise.

Dan: 40:31

But I'm going to, I'm going to express myself and say, look, this isn't something I like. All right, I'm going to go to the other part of the boat, I agree. And then there'll be sitting there on the one end of the boat smoking by themselves.

Charles: 40:41

Yeah, you enjoy positive interactions with strangers more than I do. Like I, I kind of group positive interactions, negative interactions.

Dan: 40:50

They're all interactions that I'm not really looking to have, and so, yeah, I would have been a little bit, and especially because, considering, like I don't know how long that boat ride is, like I'm going to be stuck on this boat with this guy. It's not a lot of whole, not a whole lot of people on this boat, right? So it's like it's not a cruise ship where it's that big, where you may never run into the guy, yeah. So I would have been a little extra nice or careful on how I handled that situation. I probably just would have walked.

Charles: 41:14

Yeah, I think I would have done it and I would have filed away like, okay, if I'm at some sort of a dinner or a show or something with this guy, I'm not going to sit right next to him because he lights up in situations where it's not. Yeah, I mean, either he's not aware of, yeah, you know the thief's social intelligence, or he's got a chip on his shoulder and he's trying to piss people off, so he's like those are not my people, exactly. So this is a guy I'm going to avoid. So the last guy I want to talk about is who is one of the employees at the hotel.

Charles: 41:43

He mans like I think he mans the gate, the car, his general purpose security is his job, and at the beginning of the episode one of his coworkers has an issue with her moped and he gives her a ride to work. And I wanted I definitely want to be a go easy on spoilers for his character, because some interesting stuff does happen with him his job and his relationship with the gal that he gave a ride to. But in the first episode he does refer to her at one point as my princess and I mean it's a mook is her name. She's a pretty girl and you could tell that he's sweet on her.

Dan: 42:22

Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about this, what you thought of how he handled the situation where she is talking to the bodyguards of the owner, right, and they're a little bit they look like badasses. They're a little bit brawler, they're a little bigger, they're a little bit brawny, they stand a little bit with a little bit more confidence than Guy Taw does, yeah, and he calls them, so he sees her talking to them and then he calls her over.

Charles: 42:48

Yeah To him and asks what she's talking to them about. He calls her over.

Dan: 42:51

Yeah To him and asks what she's talking to them about. Yes, and he's like they're arrogant and she's like they're friendly.

Charles: 42:57

And he's like well, that's because you're pretty, yeah, they're friendly to you because you're pretty yeah. So what's interesting to?

Dan: 43:01

me is there's nice guy vibes there. There's nice guy vibes, but also to me he's also wasn't afraid to To be completely honest with her about his feelings right then. And there he's like because you're pretty. And then she's like, oh well, they've got exciting jobs, they can they make a lot of money. He goes I make a lot of money. And she goes well, they've got exciting jobs, they can travel anywhere they want to. And he goes I like my job better. And so like every time she was like poking at him a little bit. He's like I'm, he's kind of standing his ground. So. But what was weird was I didn't like the fact that he called her over to almost stop her from talking to those guys, someone who's not your mate, right yeah?

Dan: 43:41

That's the biggest problem I had, but then I gave him some respect after that because he was not pulling any punches. He was just yeah, I like it too. And then he's like yeah, I disagree with you on that.

Charles: 43:54

I feel like he like, even though he was jealous of them, but I feel like he was agreeing comparisons that he never should have agreed to like the move there, I think, is to oh wait, so I took some.

Dan: 44:02

So I remember. Then it finished right where she goes. He goes. Oh, my job's, I love my job better and she goes. She's like, oh really, you watch cars drive in and out all day and he goes. I saved the guy's life from drowning and she goes. That was two years ago.

Dan: 44:15

Get over it kind of yeah and he's like he still writes to me every day from belgium, right, and so she's like, all right, and then there was kind of the end of it at that point. So I still feel like he had a strong response.

Charles: 44:25

Yeah, I did not find even though he can cross very. I didn't find those responses too wrong at all. I I thought it was more of let me convince you why you should find me attractive. That's like I'm going to. I'm going to lay out a logical case why I'm just as attractive as those guys, and that is not how it works right, I absolutely agree with you on that.

Dan: 44:44

Absolutely. I mean, there was no. I felt like he was proud he's still proud of those things like, I don't feel like he was faking.

Charles: 44:50

He wasn't those things. But you just I don't see. I mean assuming that his goal is for this girl to be attracted to him, which I mean I think he's got a crush on her. Trying to convince a girl why no, I'm just as good as those other guys is not the way to do it. And there was no flirtation. There was no. I didn't really pick up on any humor on his side, it was. He was like I'm going to, I'm going to verbally make my case to you. Yeah, I've never found that to be an effective way. And, in all fairness, it looked like and even call those guys arrogant, like that's like trying to take them down a peg, correct.

Dan: 45:27

Yeah, yeah, I guess I should shut my mouth before I say anything about future episodes.

Dan: 45:32

Yeah, okay, I agree from that scene, but I still I gave him credit for at least being proud of the things that he did, as well as made his feelings for her known Like you're beautiful, anything for you, my princess, when you, when she'd walk away. So I listen, I mean I'm not a woman, but I feel like you got to give him some points for at least kind of trying to stand his ground and completely be honest with his feelings for her, versus trying to be a friend, right? So I feel like a lot of times in other movies and media, a lot of times it's it's not as obvious that he's interested right away. I feel like sometimes that character where they build that tension, it's they build on that friendship and then all of a sudden she just realizes oh, he's been here the whole time. Now I love him too, which isn't good either, but I feel like at least right out of the gate he's showing that he's interested. To me it was different.

Charles: 46:24

Right, Well, stuff that I've been right out of the gate. Right out of the gate as far as episode one of this season. Yes, but she's known the guy for two years.

Dan: 46:34

Okay, but we don't yeah. So yeah, I guess how long has he been?

Charles: 46:38

That's the question. Yeah, I get the impression it's been a long time.

Dan: 46:41

Has he been trying this whole time?

Charles: 46:42

I get the impression.

Dan: 46:44

Or has he been Okay Trying for some time? I missed that part. I I didn't realize. They've been knowing each other for two years.

Charles: 46:49

Oh yeah, I guess she's like yeah, the guy that he yeah, I'm just picking it up yeah, like she reacted to it, like she knows, like she was around when that happened.

Dan: 46:57

Good point, and so okay, so maybe this is a friend zone yeah.

Charles: 47:04

He's being somewhat open about finding her attractive. But I mean attractive. But I mean, yeah, I've, I've known guys in the friend zone who are willing to drop things, like my princess and stuff like that, and it's like, okay, she's, she feels like it's safe to have him around as a guy that admires her and is attractive all right, I take it back.

Dan: 47:22

You're right, he's in the friend zone at this point.

Charles: 47:25

That's the impression I got, yeah, and the fact that we thought about that through your history, the fact that he's known her and it's not come to a. I want more than this and if you're not interested, that's fine, I'm going to keep looking. That conversation has definitely not happened because he's still friendly with her and, yeah, I mean, maybe at this point we don't know how into her he is, but I get the impression they've never had an act, they've never had a romantic date together. At this point. No, and again, the need that that he, the fact that he needs, he feels the need to insult other men and bring them down a notch.

Charles: 48:03

So he's one of her orbiters, right it feels that way to me, right, it feels that way to me and so, yeah, we'll see if he's able to shake that impression. But it's going to. It's going to require some pretty decisive action, I would say, on his part, if he wants to get out of that place that he's put himself. So we'll see. All right, let me see there were some other points that I wanted to. So that's kind of an introduction to all the characters and we'll get into them more individually as we, as we cover the episodes. We're not going to have to reintroduce them every time, but there are definitely some. I'm trying to think is there any positive masculinity that we've seen? Really? I mean, I guess Guy Talk would be the closest to, and Lachlan is just a young guy who's trying to figure out who he is and try to find his place in his family and where he wants to go to school and stuff.

Dan: 48:52

The instructor for the massage therapist. Oh, I forgot what his name was. Oh my God, I wrote it down. I'll have to look for it.

Charles: 48:59

Let's see, I'm looking for his picture. Chai Okay, pom Chai is his name. Yeah, we'll get into him and we'll also talk a little bit about the um.

Dan: 49:09

I think he's the one of the few that have, at least in this episode, a positive.

Charles: 49:14

Yeah, he's handles masculinity, yeah, and he doesn't see. He doesn't seem to have any ulterior motives or weird agendas. He just seems to be pretty authentic. The other one we'll talk about is the I guess, Russian fellow who's going to be like the. We'll see him a little bit more there's a health concierge. Yes, there's not a whole lot going on with him in this.

Dan: 49:30

Vlad, is that the guy's name?

Charles: 49:32

I think so, something like that. A good looking dude who's. The women are excited to work with him. Right now we don't know much about him, but we'll. We'll get into him a little bit more in future episodes. But yeah, the guy who is what's what's Zion's mom's name?

Dan: 49:47

I don't know if they even mentioned it. I don't remember hearing Belinda Belinda, that's right.

Charles: 49:54

Okay, belinda is being is learning from this other guy, who's the basically her counterpart in Thailand, the Thailand property, and they both seem to be friendly and nice to each other and nothing weird going on there, which I like. He seems like just a normal dude.

Dan: 50:08

Yeah, and as he was like giving her the introduction to a little bit of thai culture about the island, and so one of the lizards falls from the tree and she freaks out. He goes no, you don't have to worry about that monitor lizard. And then he kind of shoos it away.

Charles: 50:22

So he's already showing signs of being like protective of her and just a kind of good guy in general exactly, yeah, and I don't think there's anybody else that really had much of a role in the first episode that we haven't talked about. Yet. The manager is a little bit. The stream Is that Fabian or whatever his name is. Yeah, sounds right stereotypical mid -manager where it's like, okay, you're not dynamic enough to be in charge, but you're pushy enough to sort of be above some other people, and so I yeah, I didn't really like his vibe, but he didn't seem like a bad guy. He just seemed like a borderline competent guy which we've all known and worked with.

Dan: 51:03

Guys like that yeah, I think he kind of compares to some of the other managers. But the other managers from the other seasons they they had a little bit. They were a little more power hungry, they were a little bit more arrogant and he got a little bit of that in him, yeah, but not as much as the previous managers, I feel. From the other, from the other.

Charles: 51:21

Yeah, I would agree with that too. Yeah, yeah, all right, so we'll stop there the upcoming episodes, talking more about what it is that is motivating these guys and why they act the way they do with their friends, family, fellow guests, what have not, and, yeah, I'm looking forward to this. So we'll do this for as many episodes as they're going to have. Let me see how many episodes. How many episodes? Oh, just eight total, right, yeah, I guess. So I was a little surprised that, yeah, it's going to be eight seasons total, so we only have one episode left to go as far as what's aired from what you've seen.

Charles: 52:00

Yep, and that comes out, I guess, this sunday yeah interesting that it feels like there's a lot to tie up in in one episode yeah, I think I'm an episode behind.

Dan: 52:09

I don't think you haven't seen seven yet.

Charles: 52:10

No, okay, yeah, so that that'll be interesting to see how they end up tying it together. Wow, yeah, that's cause they've got to get us to the point where the shooting starts, and one damn sort of a resolution to that.

Dan: 52:24

Yeah. So what's crazy is that I, after rewatching episode one, then after the shooting, and they start introducing the characters on the boat one week earlier and I feel I've only watched six episodes, but I was like holy cow, that all happened in one week, oh yeah.

Charles: 52:40

Yeah, it's pretty wild, yeah, and I think we'll get into some of the stuff with the three ladies on their trip when we talk about the health concierge guy, the Russian fellow and his friends, that we'll meet some of them in subsequent episodes too. So we'll talk a little bit about the ladies, but their dynamic is really fascinating to me. We'll get into that a little bit as it relates to the guys around them and how those guys are behaving. All right, cool. Thanks, dale. We'll stop there and talk to you next week. All right, I'm looking forward to it. Okay, thanks so much for listening to the complete episode. We appreciate it. If you enjoyed it and you want to check out the next one, it'll be coming out next week. You can do your homework and watch the white Lotus season three, episode two, before you listen to the episode, so that you can enjoy a little bit more.

Charles: 53:23

Check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom, for full audio and video episodes, as well as anything we decide is worth sharing. Thanks again. We'll talk to you next time.