The White Lotus: Fathers, Failures & Facades

Secrets spill. Gun safety's optional. And emotional honesty? Forget about it. Welcome to Episode 4 of The White Lotus Season 3, where the Thai sun heats up the already simmering pot of fragile masculinity.

Charles and Dan break down:

• Timothy's Total Meltdown: How a patriarch's financial panic fuels gaslighting, substance abuse, and a desperate struggle to maintain a perfect facade.
  
  
• Rick's Risky Revenge: Why his deep-seated desire for vengeance is leading him down a dangerous, emotionally unhinged path.
  
  
• The Problem with Pushing Feelings Away: How characters like Saxon shut down emotional displays in others, and the real-world impact of this common male coping mechanism.
  
  
• Greg's Growing Menace: Unpacking the aloof and potentially dangerous vibes from Chloe's beau, and what his actions might mean for others at the resort.

Also on the table:

• Why "Chekhov's Gun" is a blinking neon sign in this episode.
• The connection between perfectionism and shame in the male psyche.
• Dating apps: The surprising truth about what attracts women (and why physical strength isn't the whole story).
• How generational "BS" impacts current male behavior.
  
  

Smart, honest, and sometimes brutal—just like the episode.

🚨 Spoilers for Episodes 1–4 of White Lotus Season 3 🎧 Watch and listen at mindfullymasculine.com 🌀 Next week: Episode 5. The true chaos begins.

Chapters

• 0:00 Men Suppressing Emotions
• 4:15 The Rat Lifts & Timothy's Struggle
• 10:46 Substance Abuse as Coping
• 17:35 Saxon and Lachlan's Brotherly Dynamic
• 27:40 Rick's Revenge and Identity Crisis
• 38:27 Family Pressures and Perfection
• 42:48 Greg/Gary's Mysterious Behaviors

Transcript

Charles: 0:00

One of the hallmarks of the version of masculinity in this show is that when someone displays any kind of an emotion that men are uncomfortable with, they tell them. They basically tell the people to knock it off. We saw it with Chelsea crying. We saw it with Lachlan was acting sad that his sister's going to, wants to move away for a year, and Saxon's like no, don't't, don't act that way. Welcome to the mindfully masculine podcast. This is charles. In this episode, dan and I will continue our exploration of the white lotus season three, focusing on the profound impact of generational pressure and challenging ways men cope with emotional discomfort. We'll delve into how characters attempt to suppress feelings, leading to everything from substance abuse to damaging family dynamics. Tune in as we discuss episode four and its powerful lessons on authenticity and the cost of maintaining a false front.

Dan: 1:01

Sweaty Crabbe.

Charles: 1:02

Charles, how are you? I have never I've never understood what they were saying or how to say it correctly.

Dan: 1:07

So neither vice. That's why I looked it up.

Charles: 1:11

Oh, and I still probably got it wrong but be very conscientious not not me, but I did like that. Rick said. What did he say?

Dan: 1:17

swatting never, as he was leaving the conversation with those guys well, well, saxon I don't know if you picked up on this on the cruise, when he grabs lock real quick.

Charles: 1:27

Let me interrupt. Hey, everybody, we're still talking about white lotus, season threes. This is episode four, so if you haven't seen it yet, watch it. And then watch the listen to us, because we're gonna drop spoilers for episodes one through four.

Dan: 1:39

Go ahead, dan so after, when they're on the boat, he grabs locky to go go talk to the ladies. He's like walking over there and he says swastika. And like I wouldn't have picked up on it if I hadn't listened, if I don't watch it, if I didn't watch the episode with without subtitles and it was, it was literally. It was spelled out exactly the way it's spelled. That's hilarious, it was so funny.

Charles: 2:03

Yeah.

Dan: 2:04

Especially coming from somebody with's spelled.

Charles: 2:05

That's hilarious, and it was so funny, yeah, especially coming from somebody with Austrian descent. That's true, yeah, senegar, yeah, yeah, wow, that is, that is very funny. Yeah, I didn't kiss that one, I caught. I caught what Rick said.

Dan: 2:16

Yeah, that was the right. It was about halfway through, it was, oh my God, I, I died.

Charles: 2:21

Yep, that's very funny. I'm sorry I missed that. That's good. So this, this was a good episode. I felt like the last episode not a whole lot of stuff happened, it was really kind of just buildup, and this one's kind of buildup too, but a bit more intense than the last one, I would say.

Dan: 2:37

Oh, for sure.

Charles: 2:38

Yeah.

Dan: 2:46

So you think we should start with the rat lifts or with rick? I think probably with the rat lifts, based on, like, the chronological order of the, I think, of the episode. Right, they were. Yeah, they really started to crumble. I guess is the best.

Charles: 2:55

Yeah, so we did anyway yeah, we'll start with timothy the father, so we got to see his penis. That was something. Something that was so funny.

Dan: 3:05

My sister was super excited about it. She hadn't seen any of the episodes yet but she was like the first thing she said was I was like, oh, it's a really good show. And she's like, oh, yeah, I guess you get. You get to see whatever the actor's name is. Yeah, you're going to see his penis. And I was like his name is Jason Isaac, jason Isaacs. Yeah, she's super excited about that because she's a Harry Potter freak.

Charles: 3:27

Yeah, it looked. I wasn't 100% sure that it was real, that it may not have been a computer generated, because I look really close. I mean I really got in there to take a long hard look at it, so to speak, and I don't know, maybe it was just with the lighting, but something looked up there. I don't know. They may have just may, just CGI that in.

Dan: 3:46

So, like the last time you were hooking up with Jason, like it wasn't that big, is that? Is that what you're basically saying?

Charles: 3:51

Yeah, they left. They left the birthmark off, which I thought was weird, and the foreskin.

Dan: 3:56

It's the magic of CGI right.

Charles: 3:57

Yeah, no, but I I mean I felt like they did it for a reason. They're they're basically showing that this guy is. It was not gratuitous by any means, it was definitely a way he's kind of like out of it. Yeah, exactly Like you. Between the he's drinking heavily. In this episode he's hitting his wife's lorazepam hard enough that she's missing the, the, the quantity of the pills and blaming it on jet lag. But what really going on it as he's taken a bunch of psychoactive medications that he's he's out of it.

Dan: 4:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. And as the episode goes on, he just gets more and more fucked up or high. As he's going along, he just keeps popping lorazepam and he's drinking throughout the entire episode.

Charles: 4:43

Yeah, and he's drinking throughout the entire episode, yeah, and which is? I mean, it's kind of interesting from a from an evolutionary perspective, how, when we're at our highest levels of stress, we seek out comfort or buffers that impede our ability to handle the difficult situation that we're in the middle of. When we're in the middle of it, it's like I'm going through this thing. It's so hard, I need to have my wits about me and I need to have access to all of my mental resources, but I'm in so much emotional pain that instead of instead of doing that, I'm going to do whatever I can to dull the pain, which also is going to kill my ability to react and deal with things.

Dan: 5:26

It could be one of those things where you don't trust yourself to be able to continue to deal with things based on your assumption of the emotional, physical feelings that you're having at the time. So I would say is I know, when I felt that way, I felt like I didn't have the ability, with my current state of being, to handle that situation, and so I needed to change my state of being. Unfortunately, and yeah, you're right, it's it's never. It's never really for the better.

Charles: 5:56

No, if I've said before that if, if your solution to problems is to get drunk, then you just go from being a guy with problems to being a drunk guy with problems, yeah, yeah, and the problems don't go away. But I do understand the impulse to be like I just don't. I just don't want to feel this right now. And it's funny when he was toward the end of the episode, when he's talking to his lawyer, again voiced by a podcaster and author, professor Scott Galloway. We, we share a fair amount of his content on our Instagram because he has some interesting things to say about politics, masculinity, things like that.

Charles: 6:29

And he was the voice of the lawyer. He was setting up a rat lift with some. I mean, like you'll just go away to a minimum security federal prison for a few months, a minimum security federal prison for a few months. I mean that's a pretty good deal for embezzling money and starting up a fake investment fund and whatever else him and kenny did together. It's like I I think it's. It's really the, the social impact that is freaking him out and is causing him to want to try to figure out, I guess, when he gets back to america. Try to figure out, I guess when he gets back to America. Try to figure out a way out of this. But it's like dude, your your lawyer's telling you he can make a deal where all you gets a couple of months away from your family.

Dan: 7:14

And his reaction is I'd rather die, yeah. And then, and then he goes what am I supposed to tell my family? Am I supposed to tell my family that we're fucking poor? And then, and then he gets off the phone after yelling at him, berating him, tell him to figure something else out. He pukes and then he looks up and that's when he sees the empty guard booth.

Charles: 7:33

Yes, and and did do. Do we see what he does with the empty guard booth, or is it just into that?

Dan: 7:39

He just so, he just you just see his head, like look up, and he sees that the booth is empty and then it cuts to the next scene, right?

Charles: 7:47

there Right Guy Talk comes back and his gun is missing.

Dan: 7:51

So Guy Talk now is not doing his job again by walking Mook, because he's flirting with her. She had gotten dressed up for the performance, so she's looking all sexy and he? I'm guessing that's not part of his job, right, is he's like oh, I'll walk you, I'll walk you to like the main building from the guardhouse, cause that's where they were talking. So he leaves his post and apparently well, so you know the, the gun is in the in the drawer there. But when he comes back he sees that the box is like on the on the table and it's empty, right, yeah. He comes back, he sees that the box is like on the on the table and it's empty, right, yeah, yeah and a couple notes on gun safety.

Charles: 8:30

Here you don't leave your gun out and not secured and looked like it was a cigar box.

Dan: 8:36

It looked like it was a cigar box.

Charles: 8:38

It was hysterical the other thing that you know cast some doubts to me on the quality of the security infrastructure at that resort is taking some guy to a shooting range so that he might be able to develop some level of target accuracy, is not training someone to use a gun to prevent crimes. That is not the same thing Like just yeah, if you and I go to the gun range every weekend for two years and we get really good at putting little holes in the bullseye, that does not mean that if a crime breaks out, we're going to effectively be able to choose our targets, be aware of what's going on behind the person that we're going to shoot to try to prevent, you know, crime or death or injury Like there's. There's a whole lot of stuff going on there.

Dan: 9:28

That's like. I feel like there's a little bit of strategy that needs to come in before you even pull the gun out, right? You know what I'm saying In terms of that's got almost nothing to do with the gun, that that there needs to be some sort of training on that front as well, right? Which?

Charles: 9:38

is, which is what police stations and militaries hammer into the people that join up with them. It's like this is not yes, being able to put the hole where you want to put the hole is important, but there's a whole lot of other stuff that you need to understand before. Yeah, you get, you're given a protection job that has a gun as a tool, and so that's. That's all I mean. The gun is is obviously a blinking neon sign of foreshadowing, like, hey, we're, we wouldn't put this in this episode if it's not going to come back later in this episode, later in the series. Blah, check off his gun, right, you don't enter, introduce a gun and then not do anything with it.

Dan: 10:14

So okay, hold on, explain. Check off guns for everybody who's not a tracky it has nothing to do with star trek.

Charles: 10:20

It's the author.

Dan: 10:22

Check off I thought that was like a known, like a special episode from Star Trek that like was like famous for like I don't know, some sort of philosophical lesson to learn.

Charles: 10:33

Now I got it. Now I got to look at.

Dan: 10:36

Oh, that's a Star Trek Chekhov. Are you proud? Are you proud of me that I remember that name from Star Trek?

Charles: 10:40

No, absolutely Well done, chekhov's gun comes from the Russian playwright Anton Chekhov, who famously stated if in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired, otherwise don't put it there. Okay, yeah, so minimalist, yeah, exactly. And so I'm sure Mike White is aware of Chekhov's work and yeah, he, he would not introduce a gun if, if he didn't plan on it.

Dan: 11:11

I mean the show is great because if you go back and you listen to it, there'll be similar type of music. That's kind of this eerie tinkling of the keys or whatever that is in the background. Every time you hear or you see something that's going to be significant and that rears its head again later in the show, something that really you got to see a little bit more of the character of the dad in terms of his background. One thing I really enjoyed was hearing him share when he got into that drunken state.

Dan: 11:39

A lot of us get sentimental, a lot of us start it's like truth, serum, right, we start spilling out all these stories. And he's on the boat, he's talking to some random couple from australia and the guy's being really nice. He's trying to engage him with conversation and he's saying, oh, hey, what do you do? He's like go on finance. He's like, oh, that must be fun. And I mean it's like over the top because like yeah, really. And he goes, yep, I'm a pillar of the community. And he's like are you now? And he goes, yep, I'm a pillar of the community. And he's like are you now? And he goes, yep, my dad was a governor in North Carolina and thank God he's dead.

Charles: 12:10

Grandfather oh his grandfather, okay, Dad was, a very father was a very successful businessman.

Dan: 12:15

Very, very, very successful businessman.

Charles: 12:18

he says yes that's right and thank God they're dead.

Dan: 12:22

And he does a cheers to the heavens with his glass. As for for these like thank God, my parents are dead, and it goes to show like the pressure that he's under from external areas, but that he's obviously internalized that himself too.

Charles: 12:37

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, he's. He's definitely having some problems and the pressure again, I really do feel like it's the social pressure that is really getting to him, more than the idea of Even the money. I mean, I don't. I obviously the money is important to him and the house is important to him, but it really does feel like the, the reputation and his family going from rich to poor because of his actions is the thing that's sparking this attitude of I'd rather die than go through this on the couch next to his wife and his wife's like what's up with you?

Dan: 13:16

you're acting all different, obviously he's like stoned out of his mind and drunk and he's like no, I'm not. And she she storms off, goes to get her bottle of lorazepam out of her hidden purse, where only her and her husband knew where it was right. She goes in there and now it's gone, like the entire bottle is gone because he swiped it. And she comes back and she goes somebody took my bottle of lorazepam. She's all pissed off and he gaslights her and he's like you sure you didn't lose it? You're losing stuff all the time, right, and it just shows like how much of a wall, a facade this guy is building up in front of his family just to protect what his, his own shit that's crumbling behind the scenes yeah, and and meanwhile he knows he it's gonna come out eventually.

Charles: 13:58

He's just kicking the can down the road a little bit. It's not. It's not like anything he does is going to prevent the tidal wave, the tsunami, from coming. He's just like let me just push it off for a couple of days and, yeah, do it do it even more harm.

Dan: 14:13

Obviously, by by trying to do that, yeah, I mean you can mean you can see there's holes in his dam, because then his daughter, piper, sits down next to him and then he starts crying and he's just like I love you so much and you can see that he's thinking about him going to jail or going away and not seeing her again.

Charles: 14:32

Right Meanwhile. Again, you got to assume that what the lawyer is suggesting over the phone is probably pretty accurate, like if he's saying, I can get you a couple months, he probably knows I can get you a couple of months and it's like, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure that seems huge, but you know, he's going to assuming that he gets home and he deals with the situation. He's going to assuming that he gets home and he deals with the situation. He's going to get arrested and then he's going to get either he's probably going to get bailed out and have to release his pass, give up his passport, and then he's going to have a while before his trial and then after his trial, or or I guess, if they make the deal, he's not going to go to trial but there's going to be some period of time where he's not in jail and then, once he gets sentenced, they're going to send him to a minimum security, white collar federal prison. That I mean we learned from office space that they can still be kind of rough, but not that rough. I mean, yeah, so yeah it's.

Charles: 15:30

I mean I don't know when, when I, when I hear about the white collar crime, minimum security prison stuff, my immediate reaction is always like what is the big deal? You're like, sign me up Well, I mean listen for a couple of months. I mean you don't get to have your phone, you don't get to have the unsupervised access to the internet, probably. But there's books in prison, there's gyms in prison, there's free food in prison, and again, when it's seldom security and you're not, you're not being thrown into the middle of a gang war or something, then yeah, again I'm kind of like what's the big deal?

Charles: 16:05

a gang where the counselors, the lawyers, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, it's like you got. You're in here now you got to choose a side. Are you gonna be? Are you gonna be the I was gonna say the the former biden staffers or the former trump staffers, but they all get pardoned, so they don't. None of them end up in prison anyway, but yeah, so it's. It's been interesting, yeah, seeing him. First he was gaslighting his son last week about his career right, buttering him up and trying to manipulate him emotionally, and then, yeah, seeing him do the same thing to his wife. It's like, yeah, he's pulling out all these these little coping mechanisms and defense strategies and they are. It's terrible to watch what's going on with his kids in this episode. So saxon and lachlan are Lachlan's got some magic tricks. At least that's kind of fun to watch.

Dan: 16:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles: 16:58

Saxon is continuing to be himself and be kind of crass and annoying and performative and doing saying the things he thinks he needs to say and doing the things he thinks he needs to do. It was interesting what one of the hallmarks of the version of masculinity in this show is that when someone displays any kind of an emotion that men are uncomfortable with, they tell them. They basically tell the people to knock it off. We saw it with chelsea crying. We saw it with lachlan was acting sad that his sister's going to, wants to move away for a year, and Saxon's like no, don't, don't act that way. I forget exactly what he said.

Dan: 17:41

Don't, don't hang out with, like Debbie Downer. Basically, yeah, the sour puss over there, yeah.

Charles: 17:47

Yeah, instead of, instead of like, hey, what's going on, let's talk about what's bothering you. It's, it's no, stop. Don't do that. Ignore it. Your feelings are making me uncomfortable, so you need to stop it.

Dan: 17:57

Don't, don't start making me feel something.

Charles: 17:59

Yeah, look, I mean I've I've been there, I've I've I've reacted that way to feelings before and yeah, it is. It's not helpful, it's not effective, it's not a loving way to be, but it does. It can absolutely feel like that impulse you have in the moment when you see somebody having having an experience that you know either you don't want to feel responsible for or you're not comfortable with and you don't know what it might mean for you. So therefore, you got to stop that. You're making me uncomfortable.

Dan: 18:26

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Charles: 18:27

So yeah, I mean saxon's clearly there to party, have a good time and and get laid yeah, but I mean I get the impression that he's everywhere for that, like that's, that's that's where good point, they were in thailand or at the office, but it's like what? Yeah, it's his mode and that's that's what he cares about. Let's see, what else did we see about the brothers? It it does.

Charles: 18:50

Yeah, I mean lachlan is definitely stuck with this, this example who's just a few years older, and I, I did not have an this example who's just a few years older. I did not have an older brother who's just a couple years older than me. But I imagine the pressure's got to be huge, especially if they're even a moderate performer in sports, in scholastics, in their career, whatever it is. There's got to be, I mean brother to brother, sister to sister. There's got to be, I mean brother to brother, sister to sister. There's got to be a lot of pressure there, like okay, I've got to, I've got to perform at a, at a level or above my sibling, my older sibling, or else yeah, and also saxon is a almost a spitting image of of their dad and the dad it's got you know again.

Dan: 19:32

He's got all this pressure, he's got all this reputation. Of course, saxon lockheed probablyed probably know the history of their family as well and the expectations that both the mother and the father have of them. He's at least visualizing and has that high level or that standard that he's got in his mind. And so, yeah, he, he wants to get there. I think, or at least some part of him does.

Dan: 20:02

And when Piper basically says, tells him the truth, that why they're there it was for her to spend a year away, he gets upset. He's like, well, what about me? She's like, well, you'll be in college. And at that point he feels like his older sister kind of abandoned him a little bit. So that's when he walks away, she's like, don't walk away. And he walks away and goes over to Saxon. At that point he goes to the other older sibling and so you can see there he's just kind of like, all right, well, you don't got my back. So even though Saxon may not be where I want to be, At least I feel like he cares and he's he's gonna be there.

Charles: 20:37

Yeah, and he definitely took it hard the cause. I think he identifies with his sister in in some ways more than with his, with his brother.

Dan: 20:45

Yeah, I agree.

Charles: 20:46

Yeah, Because at least the, yeah, the, the version of her that she is wanting to be and wanting to put out there, definitely seems to be more lined up with who Lachlan authentically is. And so, yeah, the uh. There was something else that Saxon said. It was either about the, oh, it was when, when he was making the protein shakes, and when Piper was saying girls, girls aren't into Chisuku's jacked guys, he's like how would you know what girls are into? Basically, and yeah, I thought that was interesting. And listen, I mean Piper does have a bit of a point in that.

Charles: 21:28

In my own experience, girls really want strong men, but it's emotionally strong. That is what they're looking for, and a shortcut, quick way of making that determination, at least at some level, is okay. Well, if he's physically strong, he's probably emotionally strong too, because it's hard to get physically strong. We do that shortcut in our mind where it's like okay, well, I can't spend weeks or months getting to know everybody, so what are some easy ways that I can look at somebody and try to gauge what's going on inside them? And one of the things is like, yeah, if you have the discipline and you have to put in enough work to have a strong body, then there's probably a strong mind behind that.

Dan: 22:11

Yeah, there's the potential then to apply that discipline in other areas of life.

Charles: 22:16

Right yeah, potential.

Dan: 22:20

And sometimes that's all. That's all it is.

Charles: 22:22

And that that is an interesting. It's an interesting discussion to have and an interesting thing to think about. Where now it's so easy to to walk in and get a gym membership just about anywhere, and it's also easy to get exogenous testosterone for your body, having a really good physique, 400 years ago, a thousand years ago, met oh okay, this guy. This guy works very hard with his body all the time and that's the reason that it looks that way. Where now the, the hardware, still says that that's the way things work, but the software isn't necessarily that way anymore. Where it's there there are shortcuts. I mean, still, if it was super easy, everybody would do it. So it's not super easy, but it's certainly not the a, a big built body, is not the same. It doesn't mean the same thing now that it meant a thousand years ago.

Dan: 23:15

Yeah, and I think, as men, from what I've learned and understood, is that physical appearance is definitely important to women, but not nearly as it is to men, and so even that I think we might be giving too much weight to men's physical appearance in terms of the the level of attraction it brings for women. I think that's why I think a lot of women are a lot slower to get into longer term relationships and into bed with men, because because they they know that it's there's sometimes it's more than just the physical attributes of a man that they need time to figure out what's under the surface, a little bit more, probably because of what you just said.

Charles: 24:04

It depends on I mean, part of it depends on how, what women are looking for and what method they're using. If you look at the stats on dating apps, it's like no, the the 10% most attractive men are the only ones that are getting matches on most of the dating apps, and everybody all the other guys are getting few to none and that's and. And so what are we usually? What are they usually going off? They're going off pictures, which is how symmetrical is the face and how, what kind of shape is the body and is is what they're using. When you're talking about the subset of women that are looking for men, not every woman is on dating apps, obviously, but for the ones that are and not everyone is that is, on, dating apps are prioritizing physical appearance, but most of the women who are on dating apps are using that as their as their quick swipe left, swipe right judgment.

Dan: 24:58

Right. So I think and I I can see that like as an initial pool to say hey, listen, of this pool of attractive men, at least maybe part of them, some of them, a small percentage of them, might have other attributes and other qualities. So why not pull from the most attractive men and look for those other qualities, rather than the not so attractive men? And why am I pulling from there, especially considering, from what I understand, is the experience of a woman on a dating app, where they basically literally have a pool of, like a swimming pool, full of of options, whereas men typically have a lot less to choose from. Why not pick a swimming pool that's more, at least, attractive?

Charles: 25:42

and another swimming. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If. If you're like, yeah, if your attitude is, I really want a guy with a great sense of humor, then pick among all the good-looking guys and then see which of them have a good sense of humor, the the best sense of humor might belong to some guy that you consider to be really unattractive. And if he's so unattractive you wouldn't want to date him or hook up with him or hang out with him anyway. Then then why put him in your maybe pile with a right swipe, when you might just, yeah, and I get it. And I, I think guys who on that and and want to think they want to get angry about it, they want to think that it's unfair in some way. It's like, no, everybody's just, everybody's just doing what they feel like they need to do to find what they need to find.

Dan: 26:28

Second of all. Second of all, you are literally putting yourself in the arena for competition Like you were. It's not like you're like walking around your your normal day and your job is you sell ice cream or whatever, and you're in and you're, you real concentrated pool of people where the sole thing is to compete for attention. Right, so you're not. Yeah you can't guys should shut up about that.

Charles: 27:05

I I can do agree. Yeah, Well, if, if, if you find the dating app situation to be demoralizing or a downer in some way, then don't use it and don't put yourself into that kind of a competition.

Dan: 27:19

And just know what you're getting into right, but then optimize for it If you know you're getting in there right. Yeah, like work on the things that you feel like you want to work on. That will make you more competitive in that area. Otherwise don't complain.

Charles: 27:32

Yeah, exactly, okay, let's talk about Rick. So we get we finally get some insight on what's going on with Rick here. In the fourth episode, he wants to meet the guy that he believes killed his father, who is a some kind of a hero, who was in Thailand trying to help poor people, and then this big hotel owner, real developer business, tycoon whatever this guy is, killed him and that's what his mom revealed to him on her deathbed yep and and chelsea basically has a demand that out of him.

Dan: 28:05

He was resistant to saying anything to her and he finally gives in and is a little bit vulnerable with her. And it was sweet and a little unexpected that she at the end comes and she she hugs him after. He says that, but it sounds like he's a vindictive, I don't know. Piece of work.

Charles: 28:23

Yeah, yeah, but I think she can see how, how much pain. And I mean he he accepted her hug and he looked like a little bit like he was comforted by it, which was nice to see. Yeah, but yeah it, I mean again, it's kind of more foreshadowing, like the gun. It's like you can't, you can't tell the audience, hey, there's going to be a confrontation between this guy and this other guy who he thinks killed his father. It's like, yeah, this is going to be, this is going to be a mess. Obviously this is going to be. And like not having a plan of I'm not sure if I'm going to kill him out of revenge or not, that doesn't sound like a great idea, right.

Dan: 29:01

She flat out asks him you know, she's like is this, is this one of these? You killed my father prepared to die situations.

Charles: 29:08

Right and he's like I don't know. Yeah Like, holy cow, yeah Like.

Dan: 29:14

You're just going to be like at the whim of your emotions when you actually see this guy, most likely be overwhelmed, and then perhaps do something stupid.

Charles: 29:23

Yeah, another session, meditation session with what's her name the meditation lady to to work some of this stuff out, to sort of come up with a what is it that you want to feel? What is it you want to do? So we know, we know his story now, we know what he's after and he's got to. He's got to fly to bangkok to to confront this guy, and so we'll we'll see more about that in episode five but if you're sorry to cut you off, if you remember, though, the meditation teacher did say before he went to Bangkok.

Dan: 29:58

She grabbed him and she's like you touched my heart, I'd love to have another session with you. And basically kind of like a hey, I'm trying to save you here, a little bit almost, and he's like nah, I'm going to Bangkok.

Charles: 30:09

Yeah, it's sad that they weren't able to get together and I don't know if she would have helped or changed his mind or anything, but it would have been nice to see. But yeah, it really it's interesting to see how he builds this whole identity of at some point he was a powerless kid, that stuff happened to that he couldn't control it. At some point he was a powerless kid, that stuff happened to that he couldn't control it. And now you see him exerting a mix of control and detachment with his girlfriend and I mean you can see he's really trying to his relationship with her. He's he's basically manhandling it and strangling it so that it gives him exactly what he needs and he doesn't have to put anything into it that he doesn't want to. Yeah, and she has to push and prod for anything from him and it's just, it's a, it's a method for a guy who feels out of control to be a little bit in control of something. Yeah.

Dan: 31:04

Yeah, and and I think you're right with his identity that's why he didn't want to meet with that meditation instructor, because I think he was afraid she was going to change his mind and he needed he. He like he came all that way. He absolutely needs to see this to completion, so he absolutely had to go to Bangkok and, yeah, I think he just didn't want to change his identity, or he wasn't even open to changing at that point.

Charles: 31:29

Yeah, yeah it's. It's sad to watch all these, all these guys who just they feel I mean it's a. It speaks to a lack of resilience. When you see guys working this hard to put on such a mask of what's going on with them, like they're all kind of in denial of. I can't handle the world as it really is or me as I really am. So time to put on the put on the makeup and get on the stage so that people can see. You know what, what I'm pretending to be. Yeah, yeah.

Dan: 32:05

To go back to the dad. I just remember him sitting at dinner with Piper and the mom and she's like, yeah, that was, that was a crazy experience on the boat, right, it was like this luxury cruise and she had to talk to a couple of strangers and she couldn't handle it because she didn't have her little Razzapam. She says she almost had a grand mal seizure having to deal with those people, right, and she's like they could have been. They could have been criminals and they could have been. They could have been tax cheats. And then piper's like, yeah, y'all probably cheat on your taxes. And she's like, right, well, not enough to leave the country. And then they shoot the, the camera over to the dad's face. He's like, oh, that's like okay, and and she's like you should be so lucky, piper, that your dad's an actual boy scout.

Dan: 32:47

And the dad is getting more and more uncomfortable knowing what a facade he's he's putting on. And that's when he gets up from the table and he that's when he grabs the phone from pam and then calling a lawyer who's like, yeah, yeah, the, the guy kenny is gonna kenny win, is turning over and he's talking to the feds and he's gonna say everything and that's right and that that led him to getting the gun. And I just I love the way they basically will throw lines that are innocent. But then the dad hears it and it's just like, oh, it applies to him, right. So when, after he steals the gun, he's walking back and to the bungalow and Pam stops him and she goes I think you've got something, are you ready to give it back? Right, and everybody's thinking, oh, it's the gun. And then she's like your phone. And he's like, oh yeah, she's like, hopefully you won't be needing this anymore and he's like I won't. And so when I, when I saw that again, I'm like, oh, he's probably thinking he's going to kill himself.

Charles: 33:53

That's why he won't need his phone anymore. Exactly, yeah, and it's. It's so tough, I mean, for both him and Rick, and probably I was thinking with with his little speech about my grandfather was a governor of North Carolina. My father was a very, very, very successful business. It's like you could very easily see a scenario where 10, 15, 20 years Saxon's given that same speech. My great grandfather was governor of North Carolina. My grandfather was a very successful, very, very successful businessman. My father we don't talk about him, but yeah, it's it really that that generational BS really does sort of roll downhill.

Charles: 34:24

And yeah, and the thing with with Timothy in particular, it's like when you build up this kind of pseudo stoic facade of I'm the patriarch, I'm the provider, it's like at some point, that mask that you've been carrying along with you for so long it becomes. It becomes a friend that you don't want to say goodbye to. It becomes it becomes a friend that you don't want to say goodbye to. And this situation with his legal situation, it's like, okay, it's good. If you want to make it through this with the best possible result, based on the choices you made 15 years ago or whatever it is, you've got to be honest about not being the person that you've claimed to be, and that's when, that that's what sparks reactions like oh, I'd rather die.

Dan: 35:14

Yeah. So question for you you think also there's a little some some perfectionist tendencies in there. I picked that up when the mom's like, oh, you're so lucky that your dad's an actual boy scout, which to me kind of shows this, this facade of of, yeah, he's perfect, he does nothing wrong, right, when I hear Boy Scout, that's what I'm thinking of and so maybe maybe that's part of his facade as well, as he's basically perfect. And even I think even in that earlier episodes the wife is like you've got it all, you've got money and success and a great family, and da, da, da, da, da. And like basically this quote unquote perfect life quote-unquote perfect life?

Charles: 35:55

well, yes, and, and as as I've learned from the brilliant work of bernie brown, perfectionism and shame are just opposite sides of the same coin. You don't have one without the other. So I think, yeah, his shame is not just about like, yeah, 15 years ago I did this illegal thing to make a couple extra million, 10 million million extra bucks, I think it's. Also I never measured up to the example of my grandfather or my dad, and I've been struggling to measure up to it and I never did so. I've never been good enough. So that prompt that that motivated him to take some shortcuts he shouldn't have taken and also motivates him to not really be somebody that his wife or his kids could actually know.

Dan: 36:33

Yeah, yeah.

Charles: 36:34

And and I wonder, I wonder how much of that, that distance and that pseudo self he's created is. I wonder how much of the wife's Victoria, is that her name?

Dan: 36:46

Yeah.

Charles: 36:47

Yeah, how? How much of of his just living with him being the way that he is is causing her to look for things to soothe her unmet needs, like a crap ton of lorazepam every day.

Dan: 37:00

And and and can't handle a cruise with some strangers. She's like I almost had a seizure, having to deal with that without her lorazepam. So clearly she's saying she can't handle anything slightly uncomfortable either.

Charles: 37:13

Right, and I'm not saying that any everybody's mental illness is the result of the people close to them not treating them right. But I think she she has gotten herself into a marriage and a family situation where the guy seems completely checked out on everything except keeping his business and his reputation going and so that does grind on people after a time. That doesn't. That doesn't make him responsible for her, her anxiety disorder she has one, but it also it's not helping.

Dan: 37:42

Yeah, yeah, she one of the things that she mentions at dinner is like, oh, these people are not like. The people at the oh piper is like, hey, you're fine, you're fine at the club with other people. And she's like, yeah, but they're, they're good people, they come from good families. And then shoot, the camera moves in the dad and the dad is like scratching his head, like, oh my God, the club, thinking about all the people he knows at the club. So you're totally right. Yeah, it's just, he just think of all the social, outside social pressures and the reputation he's got.

Charles: 38:20

Yeah it's, yeah it's, it's. It's so interesting to watch these, these rich fancy people in this rich fancy setting, but just having to deal with the same kinds of pressures, just at different levels and in different ways, as all of us normies have to deal with too.

Dan: 38:30

Yeah.

Charles: 38:30

Yeah, all right. So Greg slash Gary not not a whole lot have to deal with too. Yeah, yeah, all right. So Greg slash Gary not not a whole lot of interesting stuff with him. I mean he, he really is the quintessential supporting character. I mean stuff just kind of unfolds around him and he's kind of mysterious, kind of interesting. But we we don't, we never go too deep on Greg slash Gary and what's really going on with him. But it is interesting to see things, see how other people react to him and see how things unfold around him. But yeah, he's. Yeah, belinda is starting to figure out a little bit more about what's going on with him and so that's plugging in a little bit more mystery and drama into the show. But yeah, he's kind of a blank slate or a mirror that you just see other people in the context of how they deal with him.

Dan: 39:14

Yeah, I remember one of the scenes that really kind of underscores what you just said about his character was when Saxon first comes on board he hugs Chloe because she's the one who invited them, right, and then he introduces himself to Greg and he's like hey, saxon, and he goes yeah, hi, doesn't, doesn't give his name at all, and so it really it shows that he, how aloof he really is being with everybody.

Charles: 39:42

Yeah, he does not seem to have much use for Saxon in particular because he, he and look, that's part of the issue with a lot of the guys that were on that boat. It's like when you're catching girls based on nothing except how much money you have in the bank or how professionally successful you are, you always kind of have to be on the lookout for a more successful shark that's out there to potentially steal your girlfriend. Yeah, and in Saxon's case he comes from money, at least he does right now, and it looks that it's very clear. Saxon's case he comes from money, at least he does right now, and it looks that it's very clear. It looks that way that he comes from money and he's also quite a bit younger and quite a bit more attractive. So what reason would Greg have for liking him?

Dan: 40:24

Good point, good point.

Charles: 40:26

Right when? Yeah, I think, I think it's. It's very possible that he sees him as a threat.

Dan: 40:31

Yeah, definitely think that in the in this situation especially I think this was at the last episode where he caught Chloe waving at Saxon at dinner. So she he knows something's going on, either staring, or waving or something.

Charles: 40:42

Yeah, there was definitely.

Dan: 40:43

Oh, they're staring. That's what it was. And then he, then Saxon, gives her a little, a little wave into the bottle.

Charles: 40:54

That's what it was. Yeah, greg, greg picked up on something there, and so when he sees him again on on his boat, it's like okay, yeah, so, but you're always.

Dan: 40:58

But I was like wondering, this guy's dangerous right? Clearly he did something to his ex-wife, so what's, what's? I think this what's he got in store now for Saxon or anybody else that's on that boat. Yeah.

Charles: 41:09

Who's a threat exactly? We and, and that's the other. Does he care about this girl enough to risk something like that? Or again, we never really knew exactly what his involvement was with his ex-wife's death. But yeah is like is this the kind of guy that could go after some young kid who's putting the moves on his girlfriend? Or does he not care? He's got his money and he sees girls like her as interchangeable. So maybe, maybe it doesn't matter. We, we don't know at this point.

Dan: 41:39

Yeah, and the. The episode closes out with Greg in a dark room they're typing on the on his computer and then you see he's looking up Belinda and she, he sees pictures of her and his son, her son, there. So and, and that was while everybody else chloe and everybody and the kids were on the boat going to a full moon party at that island, because chloe had begged him to allow them to take the boat and he had to, like, do some business, that's what, that's what the business he was doing. And right then the next scene is saxon coming from, coming from the inside on the boat. He's got a drink in his hand, he goes, shit's about to get crazy.

Dan: 42:16

And then they, they kind of close out the episode. And it was a great teaser because, yeah, you can see everything getting building between the dad. Now Greg is looking up Belinda. He might, he might kill Belinda. The girls and the guys are unsupervised quote unquote on the boat drinking, going to a moon party. Yeah, so I think this was yeah as episode four. It really led to some, some intrigue for the future episodes yeah, I'm looking forward to the next one.

Charles: 42:43

So let's stop there for now and we will chat next time about episode five sounds good thanks, dan, thanks. Thanks so much for sticking with us through the whole episode, dan, and I certainly appreciate it. That'll wrap up our discussion on the white lotus season three, episode four. Thanks again for listening. Join us next time. We're going to get into episode five and explore what new challenges and revelations await the men of this luxurious, chaotic resort.