Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
The White Lotus: Who's Performing, and Who's Pretending?
Dive into a compelling discussion of The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 5 as hosts Dan and Charles unpeel layers of hypocrisy, unexpected revelations, and the fascinating ways characters (and people) perform. They explore the episode's subtle genius and its uncomfortable truths about privilege, values, and human behavior.
In This Episode:
- The Unsung Role of the 'Boring' Ladies: Charles acknowledges feeling "bad for how bored I'm getting of the three ladies and their story". Dan, however, highlights their "really important" narrative function, explaining that White included them as a "normal level" to contrast with the "extreme" behaviors in the series. Dan shares how show creator Mike White's inspiration for their dynamic came from observing real-life vacationers gossiping, and Charles then states that this type of gossiping behavior "is not an exclusive behavior to ladies either".
- Full Moon Festival: A Tale of Two Reactions: The hosts contrast their perceptions of the Full Moon Festival. Charles expresses that it "looks so miserable to me" and he'd "be locked in my hotel room" if he were there. Dan, conversely, wishes his past Times Square New Year's Eve experience "was that much fun" as the festival appeared. Dan then recounts his own "nightmare" experience at Times Square as a college student, detailing issues with crowds, closed businesses, and the lack of bathrooms. Charles shares his strategic approach to crowds at Groundhog Day in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, prioritizing restroom access, leading to a consensus on the value of VIP experiences.
- The Ratliff Family Dynamics: A Study in Fragility:
- Saxon's "Secret of Life": The discussion heavily focuses on the Ratliff family. Dan and Charles unpack Saxon's unsettling philosophy that "people are just waiting to be used". Dan offers a more charitable, albeit stretched, interpretation of Saxon's comment, linking it to Piper's quest for purpose at the meditation center. Charles calls this a "charitable interpretation" that is "over the top".
- Hypocrisy and Peer Pressure: Charles highlights Saxon's hypocrisy, noting his judgmental stance on MDMA despite being a perpetual Adderall user. Both hosts share personal insights into peer pressure. Dan admits to sometimes giving in to friends' pushes despite later resentment. Charles boasts of resisting social influence, even threatening to "ruin the night for everybody else" before doing something he didn't want to do.
- The Sibling Kiss & Family Taboos: They analyze the shocking sibling kiss between Lachlan and Saxon, noting Chloe as the instigator. Dan links this behavior to the family's awkward history with sex, describing it as "taboo" and "handled awkwardly". Charles expresses disbelief at crossing such boundaries, even under the influence of drugs.
- Parental Values & Modeling Behavior: Charles criticizes the parents' failure to instill strong values, emphasizing that children "model what you do, not what you tell them". Dan points out that kids often model behavior from online sources, such as YouTubers.
- Timothy's Descent and Gaitok's Dilemma: The hosts delve into Timothy's alarming spiral into suicidal ideation after stealing a gun. Charles critiques Gaitok's decision to delay immediate action, viewing it as a selfish choice to protect his job over a pending emergency. They discuss the inadequacy of Victoria's attempts to comfort Timothy by highlighting his privilege, agreeing that such responses miss the point when someone is distressed.
- Rick and Frank: Over-Sharing, Empathy, and Performance: Charles shares a compelling personal anecdote about meeting former addicts in Bible college who traded old addictions for a new one: constantly discussing their past.
it's yeah, that that was. That was humorous to me and and it did. It did have me thinking about how, yeah, the guys who who really love applying that alpha label to themselves really do seem to be the people who are most most pro to peer press. Welcome back to the mindfully masculine podcast. This is charles. In this episode, dan and I will be diving deep into white lotus, season three, episode five. Things are getting incredibly tense and we're exploring the shocking displays of masculinity. In this episode, dan and I will be diving deep into White Lotus, season 3, episode 5. Things are getting incredibly tense and we're exploring the shocking displays of masculinity, both healthy and otherwise. We'll break down the surprising effects of peer pressure on even the most alpha of men, analyze moments of profound hypocrisy and react to those truly bizarre personal revelations that only the White Lotus can deliver. Join us as we unpack the layers of control, vulnerability and raw human behavior in this must-listen episode. Stick around.
Dan:Good morning Charles. How are you?
Charles:I'm well, david, how are you? I'm also well, having a good week.
Dan:Yeah, very productive week.
Charles:Yeah, me too. Yeah, started. You helped me move on saturday and it's been fairly productive. Ever since I've been quite a bit done and my my space has recovered from the move. Everything is back where it should be. Let's uh, let's jump into our discussion of the white lotus season three, episodes number five. A lot happened in this episode a lot of the, a lot of the, and watching this over again, I I almost feel bad for how bored I'm getting of the three ladies and their story. I feel I feel bad and I mean to their credit, some I've watched some interviews by the actresses and yeah, and leslie bibb, she was like yeah, compared to what else is going on, our story was kind of boring of course, but I think having that helps.
Charles:You see, it's a place to compare it behavior doesn't look extreme unless you can see it next to sort of animal behavior exactly because most of us have had that experience of those ladies.
Dan:You're on vacation, yeah, all right. You're not maybe fighting amongst yourselves every five seconds, whatever, but at the same time there might be some tension. There's no crunching, but you're doing what they are, are going, right.
Charles:You're not maybe fighting amongst yourselves every five seconds or whatever, but at the same time. But there might be some tension.
Dan:But you're doing what they are going through, right, You're not. Most of us aren't going away to go on a meditation, to go to a meditation center, or are going on like luxury yachts and living this type of life right. So I think to have that there, it was really important for Mike to do that so that we can go. Okay, this is what normal level is. This is what normal life is that still exists in this white lotus universe.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, I like that and it's also like I think it's probably easy to identify with where a lot of people have been on vacations with their friends, and I think those three ladies do serve some archetypes of okay, she's the, she's the one that has to be the star, she's the one that has to be the planner, she's the one that is a little judgmental. And, yeah, I think most friend groups probably have some of those components.
Dan:I was watching when they do the interviews with the actors. At the end of him, at the end of this, at the end of this episode, they basically talk. It was the three ladies and they were talking about how White came up with the idea he was sitting around and he was next to a table of three ladies and when one of them would get up, the other two would talk about the other one. When they would leave, and then, when she would come back and the other one would leave, the other two would talk about that girl who just left and so they thought that was, yeah, it fitting for for these, for these ladies, yeah, and that is, that is not.
Charles:That is not an exclusive behavior to ladies either. I mean, you and I have been out and you walk away and holy shit, the stuff I say about you yeah well, I know man yeah, I've heard you have.
Dan:Yeah, because that's how it does to work when you leave. When you leave, the guy that just starts talking shit about you.
Charles:So like you would not believe what he just said about you I yeah, I probably would yeah, but that's that, that's there's in the best case scenario. It's not, it's not critical, it's more like, oh, he seems to be doing okay after the breakup I thought he'd be in a lot rougher shape, it's, it's nice, still like that, not like you believe him, that kind of stuff. But I'm sure, depending on who your friends are, it's probably a mix, right? Ideally you would like it to be the complimentary or caring, compassionate talk about you when you're not there right, and I think that was good the way they did that.
Dan:They made it entertaining because they did a little that passionate, but then it would slide into. Well, she did just drink a whole bottle at once.
Charles:Exactly. It's like ah, okay, it's a nice mix, but yeah, and they bring a little bit of the. So in this episode is the full moon festival. I believe it's called God. That looks I could never. Oh, it looks so much fun. Oh my God, holy cow, I would chill myself. It goes terrible. I almost want to take a trip now to go. It looks so miserable to me. Oh, I would be locked in my hotel room. I was watching and I thought this looks as bad as Times Square on New Year's Eve. I would never.
Dan:Oh, I wish Times Square was that much fun. Oh my God, have you done it? Yeah, I was in college.
Charles:It was a nightmare I would never do. It is you get a high floor hotel room in times square and you just watch it from your window when you're a college student, you really have access to do with that.
Dan:most of us anyway. Yeah, they, they blocked off. I mean probably 10 blocks around times square at like around the afternoon and the problem is all the businesses, restaurants they like, closed down or closed their doors so there's nowhere to go to the bathroom. And this was I mean again, this was 20, 30, about 30 years ago, holy cow. So, yeah, I mean I was probably 2021 at that point and yeah, they didn't think of having bathrooms for all the people there.
Charles:They might have porta-potties now because that they might have porta potties now, because I would think now they would have like the trailer style where you have like five or six?
Dan:I would think maybe they do. But we were standing there in the freezing cold and of course we brought drinks with us, right. So there's nowhere to pee except right there. So you kind of in the middle of the crowd, you'd basically just kind of squat down, take a piss because you couldn't go where you're gonna go like and you're standing there. You had to get there in the afternoon and do a little math. Midnight is a few hours away and you're staying there freezing and everybody's drinking. I know all these people are just peeing on the street.
Dan:I just did not enjoy that at all. And unless you get there almost in the morning, you can't even see the ball because all the buildings are covering where. Where the thing that? Yeah, so you can kind of hear everybody scream and you can see the lights coming from behind the building of the ball when it's going down. Like at least that's where we were. We couldn't actually see or we looked at like a couple of the little shiny parts of it how miserable it was. You're right, it would be amazing from a high rise.
Charles:Amazing it'd be beautiful and probably I'd absolutely do that super expensive, but very nice yeah and there's no place to move.
Dan:You couldn't. You were like really like locked in there so that full moon party, I mean. People were like moving around, right, you're like able to walk on the street and move around and dance like good.
Charles:No I wonder if they shot that during the actual full moon festival. Or question were those all extras? Was that all staged for the show? I don't know.
Charles:Yeah, the only thing I've been to that's sort of like that was going to see groundhog day in punxsutawney, pennsylvania. Okay, where I got there early enough, where, if I wanted to, I could have gone very close to the front and been like locked in right to see the groundhog come out of the thing. But as soon as I got there I was like you know what, screw this, I'm gonna lean against this tree. I'm gonna be way in the back. Where I can, I can walk to the restrooms. I can walk to the coffee state. They had coffee and donuts and hot chocolate and stuff, this little snack bar. I was like I'm gonna hang out at the back here. Yeah, and I can.
Charles:I mean, I've got still pretty good vision. I can see what's going on pretty far away and I feel like I'm I'm still in the middle of everything. I'm at, I'm at the park where this whole event's happening. But if I need to go get a cup of coffee, if I need to go to the bathroom, I don't have to say excuse me, I can just walk straight back there and it's like I still felt like okay, I am, and then at the end it's you stand in line, you get to walk through and pose with the groundhog and take your picture. So it was great. But I thought, man, this is, I would do something else like this if I could. As long as there's a way for me to scout out a place where I'm there but I'm not in the middle of it, I would consider doing it.
Dan:So that's why you pay for the VIP.
Charles:Yeah, exactly, yeah. I mean even I remember even going going to Halloween at Thornton Park. It's like, yeah, I want the VIP, I'll pay $60 so I can sit on a folding chair whenever I want to, I can walk around, I can see all the costumes, see all the events, and then I go back to my little area and sit in my chair.
Dan:I got my phone Other than Podfest. I think buying the VIP has always worked out for me. That's true, and it's always been valuable.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, yeah, okay, so let's talk about what these fellows are going through. We'll start with our friends in the Ratliff family. Yeah, saxon is still saying some real interesting stuff and yeah, he talked about how God he was saying stuff, about how I think he said people, but I think he was mostly talking about women. He's like these people just all they want is to just be used yes, that was his right.
Dan:Let me tell you a little secret in your life. It's like people are just waiting to be used. Yeah, holy crap. Meanwhile, right, it cuts to the scene of Chloe and Chelsea talking about Chelsea being upset that Rick isn't responding. Right. And she's like yeah, she's. And basically Chloe's like what do you do? Why do you care about him so much? Right, and she's like well, and then and I think they're also talking about how Chloe is, or Chelsea's a romantic and doesn't want to cheat on Rick, right. And then Chloe's like well, my modeling days I knew all the girls who were romantic were either brokenhearted or worse. And she's like well, what's worse.
Dan:But it kind of proves Saxon's point is that Chelsea wants to be used by Rick. Rick doesn't really want to use her, but Chelsea basically wants to fix him Like that. She wants it to be used by rick. Rick doesn't really want to use her, but chelsea keeps like basically wants to fix him like that. She wants it to be used. She's putting up with all his, his shitty attitude and his. Is that and is right, yeah, but the way saxon said it.
Charles:Oh, it's so aggressive though it fits his character.
Dan:It helps build his character right it's not the right way to say it or the character who he thinks he's supposed to be. I think I the correct translation came from Piper later on, when she's talking to her parents and she's like I want to go to this meditation center so I can figure out what my purpose is. And that's kind of. I think what Saxon is saying is he wants to help. The secret of life is, if you help, people can figure out what the purpose is then you know it's a good thing to do.
Dan:It's a stretch, but you said it was I mean, that is a charitable interpretation.
Charles:That I I think is over the top it absolutely is.
Dan:But the point is it's like I think people are a little bit lost and if you can help, give them a purpose. Not use them, but right, but give them a purpose. Whatever that might be, I would say people want to be.
Charles:They appreciate people want to be useful but they do not want to be used and and just the way that he said that was like oof man, it is uh-huh yeah, his. Yes, I guess let's let's get into number one. I thought it was very he's, very judgmental and very anti-mdma. Which is interesting for a perpetual adderall user to be so judgmental about mdma where it's like the hypocrisy comes out yeah, it's just another, another nod to his hypocrisy.
Charles:Especially for people who have either used drugs or know about drugs or know anything about drug addiction, it's like, okay, well, most of the ecstasy that you get on the street is mostly adderall. So for him to be simple, uppity and high and mighty about it I am the drug is especially funny. It's like looking down your nose that people use an ecstasy. It's like you have an adderall script so you're basically taking ecstasy every day when you go to work, and I thought that was just humorous for him to be so like, oh, I could never, and then he ends up doing it anyway, yep, yep, which, yeah, it's. It's interesting to see, it's interesting to see the effect of peer pressure on men who consider themselves to be so alpha. It's like just a little bit of a nudge and they're so really, yeah, they may have said it four times and he's like okay, but yeah, what did he say?
Dan:trying to take advantage of me? And then the girls laugh like, yeah, we'll try yeah yeah, yeah, it's, yeah.
Charles:That that was. That was humorous to me and and it did. It did have me thinking about how the guys who really love applying that alpha label to themselves really do seem to be the people who are most pro to peer pressure. Interesting Not to toot my own horn, but I've been out I don't think ever with you, but certainly with Rob and with other friends, where somebody was trying to get me to do something I didn't want to do and I was like you can keep pushing if you want to, but I'll ruin the night for everybody else before I do the thing you're telling me to do.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, oh, I know better, yeah, I will not do that. Yeah, and and I had friends who would do that that would push me and stuff. And a lot of times I give in guilty, but then I didn't give in all the way and then I was resentful and then I wasn't in the moment like I didn't. It'd be like just going to a bar that I didn't want to go to because and and listen to a dj I didn't want to listen to and I would just go because everybody else was going and I would end up not enjoying myself and then kind of ruining everybody, not ruining everybody else's time. They were were good, but they did their own thing, they were happy doing their own thing. But a lot of times I feel like, yeah, it's just, I would have been happier just doing my own thing, doing something different, and not not presenting myself in that negative light. It took me a while to figure that out.
Charles:Yeah, it's so funny. There are certain. There's a certain type of girl that I have had many interactions with, whenever I try to go to, whenever I tried to go as a younger man to downtown orlando with my friends, where if I was in a place that I didn't want to be and it wasn't like, oh, this is torture, it was just like, okay, I'll, yeah, we can go. And ever since the blackberry I think it was before they even started calling them the curve and the bold, the old school blackberries you could still get on the internet and sort of play on your phone. You get to Google, you could do stuff like that, and I would just. I would just do that Like I was. I was scrolling on my phone before it was cool.
Dan:Okay.
Charles:And it's still out of friends here. But yeah, there's a certain kind of intoxicated girl who, like, would immediately find the guy in the group who didn't want to be there and be like, what's wrong? You look so sad. It's like no, no, I'm good, I'm just just chill and just relax a little bit. Just looking some stuff up, it's like you don't look like you're having fun. It's like and so yeah, they would, they would decide it was their project for me to have fun, and it's like the chelsea of the group kind of yeah, it's like this. The end result of this is not going to be you making me have fun, it's going to be me making you miserable she's becoming more chelsea.
Dan:You're becoming more re-excited. Not a good company.
Charles:Sorry, you like, pulled the ripcord on this right now because you're drunk. You should be having fun, not talking to me yeah and yeah.
Charles:So I I don't know why I got into that, but I, oh yeah, about the peer pressure where, yeah, he, saxon, did not take much of a push to right do drugs, and then lachlan did it like he jumped in with both feet.
Charles:He was like I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna see what it's like, I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna do ecstasy, I'm gonna have fun, and he was not really open to the negative peer pressure of his brother. So it was kind of interesting where it looked like lachlan had more of a will to do what he wanted to do that night than his older brother did, which is is kind of indicative of the person who is curious and open to experiences versus the person who feels like they have to play this character. It's like, as soon as there's a little bit of pressure or discomfort, it's like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna roll over and go with the flow, where lockley didn't do that. But so yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit more about what went on. That was in this episode right, where they, they hooked up with the girls, or did we see all of that?
Dan:no, no, they started it. So they were all in the bedroom and so that was right before chelsea and chloe had the conversation about cheating on their their old old guy, right? And so chloe's like let's just just bang it out, and chelsea's like no, no, no, I, I, I don't want to hurt rick, I'm a romantic and that's right.
Charles:And then rick didn't respond to her text or whatever call or text or something well, that was actually before.
Dan:I think that was at the party, and that's when she came in. She's like I'm ready to have a good time, and then that's when they all dropped the ass. Okay, gotcha. So afterwards they go back to the boat and so they're all four sheets to the wind, or whatever right, and the four of them are in bedroom together.
Charles:Oh, that's right, they play the game. They get the brothers to kiss each other. So first the girls kiss each other.
Dan:Yes, and then they're like the girls signal to the guys okay, you guys got to kiss each other, and they do that. She does I think it was chloe does a little hand signal like that, right, so the the guys, they do that. It's a little peck on the on lips and then they back off and the girls like what that's it? They're a little upset about that. And then that's when locky goes in, basically for a longer, deeper kiss with his brother, and the look on saxon's face afterwards like disturbed, just like shocked. And then they show the girls and then you gotta look. If you get a chance, go back and look at chelsea's face. After that she has the best expression about like what just happened, chloe is laughing, her ass is her ass off or whatever.
Dan:And then, and then the next scene is lucky, taking a huge drink of from the bottle, like almost in victory, like yeah, I took you down. Because if you remember earlier in the show, when they first started taking the ecstasy, they were lucky and saxon were talking and basically like he's like, oh, I'm, I can, I can handle this year, I'm a senior. He's like, yeah, in high school, dude. And then eventually he's like one day I'm going to take you down. He said that to Fax and I think that was Lockie. When he has this real like I accomplished something looking at his face after that kiss and he's like drinking the bottle down and it was just and clearly. That was him saying I got you.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, I think it's interesting. I think there there probably is something in that character of okay, look, dude, you, you have gotten off on making me feel uncomfortable my whole life and now, now we're gonna turn the tables, I'm gonna make you feel uncomfortable and yeah. But yeah, it is interesting how chloe, yeah, she, she seems to be into being the instigator and pushing people, making them uncomfortable, using them for entertainment, and there you go, yeah, and then basically doing to saxon what he said he gets off on doing to other people like she. The point yeah, yeah, she seemed to be she. The point yeah, yeah, she seemed to be. She was the one in control of that night for those four. Oh, for sure, she was the one running the show, yep.
Dan:And yeah, she's influencing Chelsea, she's influencing Saxon and Lockie was kind of going along.
Charles:Yeah, lockie was like the least influence, he was the one who was doing he he wanted to do. But yeah, and not saying this with any judgment, I guess, but you're loud, I there are. I mean, I can't imagine a quantity of drugs that would get me to cross some of the lines that these oh, like, no, like. There's stuff that would never occur to me, like if I was with girls, and they're like hey, kiss your buddy. Like, no, like, oh, but it'll be fun, not for me, like for who, yeah, like, yeah, it'll, it'll be cute for you to watch and you can giggle at it. But it's not gonna happen. And I I can't.
Charles:I mean I've never taken tons and tons of drugs to the point where I mean I've never, even I've never drank enough alcohol where I blacked out and like my memory stopped recording or anything like that. I've never had that experience. But it's with me. It's like, okay, I had, I had two drinks and I was like, okay, I'm ready to go home and take a nap. That's enough of this. But I can't imagine on on psychedelics or alcohol or uppers or downers or anything, the. I feel like I've got some pretty firm walls of what behavior I would look at as being fun or worth engaging in and what I would not. And so smooching, smooching a friend, or certainly a brother, for the entertainment of a couple of cute girls yeah I like to think that would never occur to me again.
Charles:I can't say for sure, but it just doesn't feel like look, yeah, I think most people that get drunk or party or whatever would say, yeah, there's just, there's just some stuff. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna consider 100 and and most of them, I think, probably have a pretty good handle on what those limits are. So the question is how does that happen? How do you get talked into that as these two characters? Is it because of a trauma history? Is it because of weird sexual repression in their house? Is it because of being they're, they're just, they're both such approval seeking people that they I don't know, but it's, it's interesting to watch and it's interesting to say, oof, I don't think I would ever Right, I mean that's.
Dan:The difference is they were kind of showing their background, their history of their family upbringing, where sex was so taboo and sex was so, I think, handled awkwardly. Handled awkwardly that, yeah, but it's, I think it lend. It lends itself to say, and and the way the brothers were kind of interacting with each other. When saxon was talking about how am I gonna masturbate with you in the room and walk him around naked with his brother in the room, I feel like talking about how hot his sister was, like I feel like sex was already a weird thing for them. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that they might be open to doing something like that in that situation. Whereas, like your identity is I just don't do those things, like I'm not a smoker or I'm not, I don't do this for them. That didn't exist based on what we knew.
Charles:Yeah, but it's kind of weird that as a Southern US family they're not overly religious, especially based on the discussions about going to that retreat center or whatever for a year. They're not overtly Christian. The dad, timothy, mentioned being an altar boy, I think, when he was younger, which is interesting because I mean altar altar boy is not exclusively Catholic, but typically Catholic, which I would have. I mean it may be. This is a little a little bit of shortcutting on my part. Just by listening to the accents they were putting on, I would have assumed Southern Baptist or something like that from the family. Yeah, not, not Catholic.
Dan:Well, she even said that when she was having the argument with Piper and Piper was like oh yeah, she's like it's a cult. She's like there's a billion people in the religion. She's like it could be a cult and she's like Christianity or Catholicism is a cult with deviant sexual behavior.
Charles:Right. So yeah, I guess maybe Timothy. So I think that Jamie Timothy grew up Catholic. She didn't. The grew up Catholic, she didn't, the wife didn't. It might've it might've been nuts, what was going on?
Dan:Yeah, yeah, cause he was singing. If you're the the, it was almost like an Irish or a Gaelic type of which they're all Catholics, right, most started piping, right, but yeah, so, yeah, I think you're right. I think he grew up Catholic and she's probably a Christian, but not that Christian, but not that yeah.
Charles:Yeah, it was interesting when the mom said something to Piper about the values we instilled in you, piper's response is basically what values? So, yeah, I, I don't know that. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a family where the conversation of, hey son, here's, our daughter here's, here's how you find the strength to do the right thing when it's hard to do the right thing.
Charles:That does not seem like the kind of conversation you know that that family ever has with each other, and that's that's interesting, because I mean, that seems like one of the most foundational conversations you would ever have with your kids is okay, look, you're going to be in situations where you're tempted to do something you know is wrong, and here's how you find the strength to not do that. Here's where you do the difficult thing because it's the right thing to do.
Dan:Yeah, I think they were trying to get that same effect without putting in that type of work. When the mom was like, hey, we gave you these values, why are you throwing them away? Like, why basically go into this meditation center for a year? And that's when she's like, yeah, well, I don't want to be part of all the bullshit, like Saxon Right, like I don't, which is, I guess, the privileged life and things like that.
Charles:Yeah, I think, and I think that's a result of having kids and it's really easy to tell your kids how to behave. It's a lot harder to model good behavior for them and I think if anything is a epidemic in america, it's parents telling their kids to do the right thing and not modeling the right thing for them. Yeah, and so that seems to be and people, and that really crosses all the socioeconomic lines. It it's way easier to tell somebody how to behave than it is to show them how to behave.
Dan:Yeah what I've heard in the past from someone said. Basically kids will model what you do, not what you tell them.
Charles:Yeah, absolutely. And modeling positive behavior is hard.
Dan:I mean, you've got to change your identity, change your daily practices, habits and if the thing about it, too, is how many times are you communicating that behavior? If you are doing it, if you're modeling it, probably multiple times a week, a day, a month, whatever that is, whereas if, when you tell somebody something, it might be once or twice and you're also not showing them how to do it. So it just logically, just makes sense that, yeah, you, you're going to pick up that communication from watching somebody do something a lot more easily than if they're actually telling you what to do.
Charles:Yeah, yeah. And so I think you're seeing kids come of age where they're developing autonomy and they're developing the ability to make their own choices. They're developing autonomy and they're developing the ability to make their own choices. And you've got parents who expect okay, they're going to follow the values that we told them that we've had. And then it's like, okay, well, you didn't actually teach them those values, you just talked about the values that you wanted them to think, that you had and you wanted them to have when they grew up. I mean, you didn't, you didn't really teach them.
Dan:so they're thinking they're going to do what they do right and and where do most kids spend most of the time is online, watching people do things on youtube or social media, so they're going to model these people right or best case scenario with their actual, real life friends, but it's certainly not with their parents but I mean, how much time do they spend with their real life friends versus on screen devices? So yeah, they're going to try to. I swear. So many kids these days want to grow up and become YouTubers.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's stressful watching this family. I mean it is, it's, it's tough seeing the choices they make. And we'll get to Timothy right now, where I mean he I don't believe he receives any external communication during this episode. No, no, I think it's first time. Yeah, it's all him just kind of mulling it over in his own head and and hearing that stuff, basically I'm sure catastrophizing the situation, given the worst case scenarios and yeah, this is.
Dan:This is the one where it opens up and guy talk sees that tim is the one who walked into the oh yeah, he sees the security.
Charles:Yeah, that he took the, took the gun, and then it's like, okay, well, and then he got guy tak trying to figure out how to respond to this situation. Yeah, and I think he's not making the best choices the because he's trying to cover, trying to cover his own butt, while he tries to also solve the issue, where the move would probably be immediately go to your boss and say, hey, somebody came in and got the gun. I know exactly who it is and we have to do something about this. Yeah.
Dan:Well, but the thing is, though, he's already kind of in trouble.
Charles:I get that You're going to be in a lot more trouble if a guy steals your gun, because boy Guy Talk's got no reason to think this guy might be suicidal. All he knows is there's a guest who stole a gun out of the security office and I mean you've got to assume that that is a pending emergency. Good point, he's going to kill his wife. He's going to kill, right. Why would you take the gun? Yeah, exactly, I mean making the leap to. Oh, he's probably just going to shoot himself. It'll, it'll work out. You didn't take it to target practice.
Dan:Yeah, no, you don't. The archery range is closed.
Charles:So, you know, was another way that, yeah, guide talk went down a notch or two in my, in my opinion, where it's like you're gonna, you're gonna let this situation develop for a minute longer than it has to because you're worried about your job or your reputation. That is, that's insane. This is you've got. You've got a guy who stole a gun. I mean you've got to assume that's countdown to mass shooting. Yeah, if, if you're and I mean again that's, think of, think of those bodyguards that he was, so he was so willing to talk, trash about them to his girl that he's got a crush on you, think they would have gone back and forth over how's the best way to? No, oh no, would have kicked down the guy's door. Basically, yeah, held him down while they searched the place to find his gut, find the gun that he stole, right, and that's kind of what you got to do when it's your job to protect people yeah, not like I think you have something of mine right exactly and he's like I don't know what you're talking about.
Dan:He walks out of the bath, yeah yeah, exactly that, that was so.
Charles:yeah, at this point, timothy's got a gun and he is descending into this spiral of suicidal ideation at the very least. And we even we see him getting to the point of writing a letter, a note, and having the gun right there, and then he gets, he gets walked in Victoria walks in.
Dan:Yeah Right, he had the gun to his head and he was about to press the trigger. He's about to shoot himself, like he. He flinched to practice and I remember she walks in right before he actually pulls it.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:And then he like shuffles all the stuff around and tries to hide it from him yeah. Which I mean.
Charles:I can imagine that, that I don't know if you watch it on hbo max, do they do any kind of a disclaimer about that? Because, no, only for the flashing lights, interested because I, I could see somebody, yeah, either who's had their own struggles with suicidal thoughts or lost a family member. I mean the way they handle it is pretty traumatic, which it's. It's very dramatic too, it's very effective. But it's also like it's kind of upsetting to see any character put a gun to their head. I mean that is, and there have been movies like the deer hunter where, like, you see somebody actually kill themselves and it's like, oh, that is jarring, that is, and I don't have any real direct experience with that myself. But just seeing somebody, a character in a movie, put a gun to their head is is pretty, that's off-putting, that's like, uh, there's something primal about that, that's like that.
Dan:I don't like that yeah, yeah, and and I think she asked him hey, why are you up? He's like I can't sleep and he's like you know what kind of pressure I'm under and kind of reveals like all the pressure that was building up to him actually wanting to kill himself. And she again, she's what are you talking about? You have everything.
Charles:Yeah, and that is. I mean, I can think of that as a. That is a mode of comforting people that I've made the mistake of.
Charles:When somebody is having a hard time, it's very easy to fall into that trap of oh, let me convince you why. How your life is better than than your. You think it is, and that is not what people need. That I mean. What people need is for you to just sit down and be with them while they experience those feelings and just sit there and go through it with them, not try to talk them out of it. And and the stakes are so, I mean, when somebody is, is that distraught and the thing about killing themselves? That's when you know you need to be better and better at it.
Charles:So I mean, if your wife or girlfriend's having a bad day, she doesn't want you to talk her out of her feelings. But if somebody is, you know that I mean and yeah, she does not know exactly what's going on with him and it's not her job to read his mind. But when you see somebody you know behaving in ways that they don't usually behave, that should be again. If you're not addicted to lorazepam and kind of in your own world and you know it's a lot easier to see what they're going through. But he is displaying behavior that seems like it is very atypical for him and people that I mean his kids are picking up on it a little bit at least, but she seems to be completely oblivious to what's going on with him, and then when he reveals any of it to her, she immediately wants to talk him out of it.
Dan:You shouldn't be stressed. You've succeeded in every way.
Charles:Yeah, I'm reminded of the too blessed to be stressed. Oh, what an effective thing to tell people Drives me crazy. Oh, what an effective thing to tell people Drives me crazy. Okay, let's talk about Rick and his really normal friend Frank. Tell me if you've had this experience. No, no, I have not. Wait. Next topic Wait for me to tell you which experience it's interesting.
Charles:Growing up in the church and being fairly involved in it and then going to Bible college for two to three semesters. I met a lot of people who came to the church through different ways for me religious, fairly Christian-y, and didn't had Christian parents and was surrounded by Christian friends and Christian subcultures. And it was. It was a very easy progression to go from being a kid who was a Christian to a teenager, to a young adult and went to Bible college when I was 18, I guess and met a lot of people like me that grew up in the church. And then I also met quite a few people who were non-traditional students who basically had like a conversion to Christianity later in life after they had hit some rock bottoms, and met a few guys who gave up their addictions to sex, drugs, alcohol, rock and roll, petty crime all the reasons to live life. Yeah, okay, and found themselves in bible college looking to become ministers and there were quite a few of them that that's what the bible college is for it's.
Dan:If you're getting no, I'm not, you wouldn't go, unless you want to become a minister. Is that correct? Or would you go for?
Charles:no, the very the small ones, like the one I went to, like the, I believe the only degree offered was Bible Okay, and they had different. You could have an emphasis in Christian counseling or an emphasis in youth ministry, but this is if you're going to make this part of your.
Charles:Yeah, like you're working in a church or a church's school or you're looking for a career that is, at the very least, church adjacent. You're not. Yeah, it's not a Christian college that also offers accounting degrees. At least, the one I went to was not like that it was. It was like you're. You're going there because you either want to marry a preacher or become a preacher of some form. Okay and so, but I met some guys there who, so some way, you thought you were going to be a preacher yeah, yeah, I yeah.
Dan:You neglected to mention that. Okay, I had to put the math together there. I never thought about it.
Charles:It didn't take long for me to be disabused of that notion. Okay Now, the first year that I went there was the first year that they were accredited by SACS, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, which meant credits that I got there would transfer to state schools, community colleges, things like that. The year before I went they were not accredited, so Valencia Community College wouldn't really care what you got from that Florida Christian College, because they didn't see it as a real college.
Dan:Now, did that matter to you at all?
Charles:Yeah, I only went because it was accredited, so that if I decided I wanted to pursue something else I wouldn't waste my time and money so you already were coming into that, yes, kind of hedging your like. I think I want to do this, but I'm not sure I want to do this. So, hey, I can't, I can't, I can't go someplace where I want to, where I might be wasting my time yep, same thing for me, geology, I think.
Dan:so most of us were like, yeah, we think, we think we want to do this and then, once you start doing it, you're like, eh, me and I, yeah.
Charles:So anyway, to get back to it, there were guys that traded their previous addictions for drugs, alcohol, petty crime, being a bad dude. Their new addiction was talking about their former life and how much better they are now than they were back then. And when I watched Frank and Rick have this discussion, that is what I was reminded of, and I've seen a little bit of that with with my exposure to like 12 step recovery groups. There there are some people that are there to do the work and there are some people that are there to talk about themselves and basically get a captive audience. Where I can, I'm in this room and people have to listen to me, so I'm going to take advantage of it. And so that was the feeling I got from Frank when he was talking about himself and his journey. It was more of because it was a it's.
Charles:It's weird, Some people feel tempted to over disclose and talk about things with people who are not ready to hear the things you want to reveal and are not interested in hearing the things you want to reveal, but you kind of steamroll over them to reveal your truth to them anyway, and I felt like that is what Rick was going through, when Frank it's like this is not. Frank is sharing this because he feels like he wants to or needs to, not because Rick needs to hear it. There, there was it. It felt selfish to me. Yeah, I think it was an interesting story but, just like you're, you're putting somebody else through this without asking them if they're ready, like not preparing them that they may hear some shocking things, and it felt like an inherently selfish act on Frank's part to dump all this stuff on.
Dan:Ray, been guilty of doing something similar where I've talked about it, and more so, and it is a little bit of a selfish act in terms of trying to reconvince or keep convincing yourself that this is the best course of action for you at that point, definitely, and it's less about the other person and more about you trying to talk yourself into it again.
Charles:Yeah, or remind yourself yeah, so let's get into it. So yeah, I got the impression that frank and rick had engaged in some capers together good word or hijinks, uh-huh, the result of which led frank to have to flee the united states and live abroad where there's no extradition treaty. So I I, yeah, I got the impression that he's in some kind of legal trouble, or at least a complicated legal situation. That's why he's in Thailand and he talks about getting there and having what I guess you would call a fetish for Asian women.
Dan:And no job and a lot of free time and some money.
Charles:Yes, he seemed to, yeah, seemed to know no commitments, no, nothing tying him down as far as, seemingly, work or family. He, he was there and he could do what he wanted to do, and, and what he wanted to do was party and have sex with asian girls. And so he then gets into revealing that that, over time, started to feel like an empty pursuit, which I can understand, that, yeah, but then that led to him exploring some other options that were a little harder to identify with, which is is one of the things I I've talked about on this podcast before and, and I've said before, for some reason, the concept of privilege can sort of set people off like, oh, I feel like if you talk about me having privilege, that makes me feel like you're attacking me or you're you're devaluing the adversity that I've. Yeah, it's like okay, but here's the thing my, my, my status as a straight white dude has never made my life harder. I've never felt like, oh, this bad thing wouldn't be happening to me if I wasn't a straight white guy, and part of what I felt when I was hearing Frank's story was, like, man, I'm so lucky that I've never felt confused in that way where I've had to go on this journey of experimentation to try to get down to the bottom of why I was doing the things. And maybe it was fun for him, maybe it was cathartic for him, but God, it felt very complicated and very like. I'm just glad I've never I've never had those kinds of deep questions about my identity where I felt like, okay, I've got to go through and do some deep experimentation to really feel what it is that I'm coming from and I I feel like that's lucky on my part. Yeah, I don't feel like it's better that I haven't had to go through that, but I do feel like, okay, I some die. Some dice were rolled on my behalf before I existed and those dice came up to say charles is never gonna have to right, see if he needs to pretend to be an asian girl to experience what that's like.
Charles:Yeah, and it was just like man that like I hope for. I mean, obviously he's a fictional character, so I don't care about him. But for the people in real life who've had to go through something like that, I have empathy for them. Yeah, because it feels like a really complicated, troubling thing to experience, to be like I'm not sure why I'm doing these things and I want to get to the bottom of it. So now I'm going to engage in clearly risky behavior. I mean I'm not.
Charles:I'm not okay calling what he did morally wrong because, as long as he was doing it with people that were appropriate age and mentally able to consent to it, have fun, do whatever you want to do, I don't care. Yeah, but certainly risky behavior I mean when you're, when you're paying people for sex or paying people to have sex with you. I mean that's when things can get a little squirrely, sure? So, yeah, I I feel like, wow, what, what an experience he went through. And, yeah, just dumping it on rick, it's like rick's got enough problems, he doesn't need, you know, things like this dumped on him without some sort of a heads up of hey, I've had kind of an unconventional experience the last few years and I'd like to tell you about it so you can sort of see where I'm. I'm coming from. Are you, are you up for that? Well, that seems like the kind of thing you would say, right, well.
Dan:so I think frank took the opportunity when he ordered the chamomile tea and rick chamomile tea and at that point, yeah, there's like a charting board.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:Rick was like oh well let me tell you and obviously like you don't need to go there Well, he started out having sober for 10 months and then it proceeds to just he just kind of goes and goes and goes.
Charles:Here's my story, yeah, my conversion to Buddhism. Story Right, story right, and that focuses much heavily on my private sex life. Yeah, and, and me doing things that I mean, he's got to know rick well enough to be like, okay, rick, there's a good chance rick is not going to identify or understand this, so maybe giving him a heads up of where this conversation is going to go would be the kind thing to do. Yeah, and, but again, I feel like it's, it's. It's easy to trade one form of selfishness for another, and you can be sober and you could be celibate and still be a selfish person who gets off on, yeah, weird things like sharing these personal conversations with people in public. And, yeah, and the actors involved did a great job of selling how weird of a of a thing they were both experiencing during this conversation. And, yeah, sam rockwell was amazing and walton goggins, I mean just like. Yeah, every I told you this morning every reaction shot that they switched to him. His mouth just got more and more open as he was hearing more and more stuff.
Dan:Yeah, and I think he did a great job of representing what most people would be feeling in that situation watching that scene. So if we were Rick sitting here listening to what Frank was saying, I think our facial expressions would be right on par with with how rick was reacting and, to rick's credit, he was not reacting with offense or disgust or judgment.
Charles:it was just like, okay, you're throwing me some curveballs here and I correct, yeah, I cannot identify with what you're talking about or what you're going through, but I'm also not going to be like, ew, gross, how dare you? What's wrong with you? And he was like that it was, it was, it was easy. He really stunned the shock and not the, which I feel like I'd like to think I would. I would behave the same way I. Actually, I'd like to think that I would be less shocked if I heard you know a friend telling me a friend I hadn't been in contact with tell me the story. Yeah, like I, I'd like to think I could come at it with curiosity, like, okay, you're sharing something with me that I can't identify with. I want to learn more about what your experience was. But you know, if I was on some sort of a vengeance vendetta that I was in the middle of getting ready to ask you to help me with, maybe I wouldn't really be on top of of being the most curious and empathetic.
Dan:Yeah, I think part of the reason why Rick was able to be that way is, like you said, he was friends with Frank for a long time at that point. Yeah, and so if somebody hadn't seen in a while and clearly like Rick almost was like warm and welcoming, like the first time we really saw him, yeah, he lit up, would he Frank?
Charles:or Frank more than Chelsea, but by a lot Exactly Now. Is that because he was counting on frank being able to, like chelsea was an obstacle to getting this business closed? Maybe where frank was, yeah, an accomplice?
Dan:I don't know but I don't think he was thinking of him as an accomplice. At that point I feel like he really legitimately said hey, it's good to see you, man, and there was, there, was, there was more there that I just want to use you to to serve my needs. There I really felt. Felt that way from Rick's performance, or Walter's performance as Rick.
Charles:I felt I don't know. I felt like there was a lot of okay. Finally, I've got a touchstone to my past. This is a guy who's going to be able to help me put this issue to bed. I feel like there was a lot of that too.
Dan:It could have been. It could have been sure, but I mean yeah, but he was friendlier than we've ever seen him throughout the entire series Exactly.
Charles:Yeah, and that was. It was interesting seeing him a little bit lighter and a little bit more.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:But then Frank took it away from him.
Dan:Right, but, like you said, I think that made it a little bit easier for him to be open to what Frank was saying, as shocking as it was, whereas so many other times when rick was engaging with strangers, like on the boat with the rat lifts and then on the yacht and just basically where he was just a complete asshole to these strangers and they were being friendly to him. So I think he definitely would have been very judgmental and very disgusted if he didn't know frank at all from like a hole in the wall and some random guy, some drunk in a bar, starts right, that's true telling him the same thing, he'd be like what the fuck?
Charles:yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think yeah, yeah, but I, I think he, yeah, he did handle it, similar to how I would have liked to have handled it if I was in that situation again. I I would have liked to not had my mouth just gaped open the whole time, and not but I probably wasn't a judgmental game, agreed, it was offensively.
Charles:And his. It was judgmental. He was like really, he said really, a couple of times I think I would have probably been a little more direct and been like if you start a conversation with me like that, I would at some point very early on I'd be like okay, are you? Are you bullshitting me right now? Are we having a serious conversation? Yeah, and I'd want to say in a way that I was open to either one of them and but it would also be like hey, I'm sending the message that you're telling me some stuff that's. That's pretty outside of what you and I have ever talked about in our friendship. Yeah, so I just want to make sure that we're on the same page here. Either you're screwing with me, and that's fine, or you're telling me something serious, and that's fine too.
Dan:I think Rockwell did an amazing job of maintaining the proper expression on his face when he was telling Rick these things, like he was almost like zoned off into his own world If you look at his eyes and his face go back and watch that she's experiencing it right then and there. That's why it was such an amazing scene.
Charles:Yeah, for me, and it was so surprising. It came out of nowhere and I watched that episode. I want to say the Monday morning, like early Monday. That's what I usually would watch Any of the big shows that come out on Sunday night. I don't stay up and watch them Sunday night, I watch them Monday morning. And yeah, the internet was going pretty crazy about Rockwell's monologue. Oh, I didn't know you were going to say that. Oh, yeah, it was like people were like, wow, that is, that was something and yeah, it was definitely interesting to watch.
Charles:Yeah, I do wonder again, I'm always skeptical, like okay, I do wonder again, I'm I'm always skeptical, like okay, how much of that was? Was there an unhealthy need that Frank was trying to meet by burying his soul to Rick, or was it really just hey, we're two friends, we're catching up? I've I've had this transformational experience and I want to share it with you because we're friends. And again, maybe, maybe it's because I'm a bit of a cynic I I felt it and, and because of some experiences I've had, I felt like it was more of a hey, this is, I want this opportunity for performance and even a little bit this opportunity of control of I'm going to, I'm going to drop these bombs on you and I'm going to feel important and in control of the dynamic by could be by dropping this stuff. Yeah and yeah, that and again. That could be all me reading into it, but it might be worth looking into seeing if, if Rockwell or Mike White gave some interviews about that and see what they say.
Dan:Oh, I'd love to hear some of that.
Charles:Yeah, I'd like to hear, yeah, I'd love to hear with Sam Rockwell, like how he attacked that performance, like how he came into it and how he decided to what level of direction he got from from Mike White, or if he kind of just how much was written?
Dan:Was any of it?
Charles:improvised, exactly, holy cow, that would be interesting too. So I may do a little bit of research after after we record this, to see what's out there about that. Yeah, tell me now. Last thing I wanted to say was man, valentin and his friends just got, I feel like I would be so annoyed, like I do not want I would turn around and leave if I, if I was in a, in a small group where those guys were in it, just like everything about them felt annoying to me.
Dan:I, I, I for me as well.
Charles:Just everything was so performative and it's like, okay, guys, we're on. This is yeah, so performative and it's like, okay, guys, we're on. This is yeah. It just felt like it was some sort of an improv crew, just like trying to put on a performance of just three russian dudes hanging out in thailand, and this is what we're supposed to act like. And not to say it was poorly written I don't think that it was, but I think I think those. I think that those guys exist and and they would annoy me in real life, yeah, if I had to hang out with them, right? But thankfully they weren't looking to hang out with dudes like me, they were looking to hang out with those three chicks.
Charles:And, good, the girls seem to be having fun, at least for most of it uh-huh until the, the girlfriend or whatever showed up and started the fight and we're all like, okay, I think we need to go.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah, the the big takeaway if you look at the girlfriend, or, and and the group of girls, they look almost exactly the very similar looking three of them just Russian versions of them. But like the way they were dressed, their haircuts, a lot of the facial structures looked very similar. It was, it was. It was probably purposely done that way, I'm sure.
Charles:Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Dan:But yeah, those, those guys did not just felt exhausting. I could not imagine being around dudes like that to be able to hang out with. So, yes, they were a little bit annoying, but that's kind of what happens, right, these aren't like your long-term friends that you grew up with or whatever that you get to pick and choose. It's like, oh, you're willing to go out and hang out and you're, you've got some good qualities, all right, I'll kind of, I'll kind of deal with it, right, that is and I'll make the book.
Charles:That is insane and it drives.
Dan:And then it drives the urge to consume more drugs and alcohol to be able to deal with the situation also.
Charles:So just letting you know it's happened to me the idea of talking to strangers while on vacation. It just blows my mind.
Dan:Well, that's where the substances come in.
Charles:I guess Kind of they help loosen up. That's a good reason for me to not take any drugs when I'm on vacation. I might end up talking to people.
Dan:Yeah, is that in the book that you're about to read?
Charles:Yeah yeah, it's a short book. I mean I can't imagine. I mean I don't think on any of the solo trips that I do. It's hard for me to think of any person I talk to on any of them that's not paid to talk to me.
Dan:I thought you said you didn't buy prostitutes. What?
Charles:No, I mean, I'm talking to cashiers, I'm talking to servers, I'm talking to Uber drivers. I'm not. I am not talking to anybody for free and they're not talking to me for free, and I can't imagine me enjoying it anymore If I was. I mean, maybe I, I don't know. Man, it's hard. Am I an extrovert or not? It's tough to it's tough.
Dan:There's also a different dynamic. If you are I don't know if you've gone out like on a vacation and trip with like a group of people or a group of friends or whatever, and done like an excursion, like a or like an overnight, a couple of, a couple nights, whatever, where it's just about partying and having a good time, and and there's a group of people between social pressure, being in a new place, looking to explore things, and I.
Charles:This is all when I was much younger, obviously, but that dynamic isn't very far from what actually happens hmm, I mean, I've gone to vegas with with my buddies before, but, okay, all right, you know when, when it's time to go to ghost bar or something like that, it's like you guys are giving up premium tourist poker time. We could be right, money from, yeah, dumb kids from california and you want to go to a club? No, I'll be at the poker table and yeah, so I, yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm built different than certainly the kind of people that they make resort-based television dramas about. Right, I mean, I would not be entertaining on White Lose because I'm.
Charles:I'm sitting in my room, I'm sitting at the pool, I'm sitting at the beach reading the book or talking with the person that I went with. I'm not plotting on getting the guy that you know, my father. Yeah, I'm not letting snakes loose. I'm not talking about the two years I thought I was an asian girl. I'm not doing any of those things lots. I'm not going to the full moon festival. Um, yeah, I, I am built different from, and that's why they don't make. They don't make tv shows about my life. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, that's the way I like it. If there's a tv show about your life, okay, that's fine. Yeah, that's why I like it. If there's a tv show about your life, there's probably there's probably there's probably a reason, there's probably consequences and so, yeah, the kind of vacations I go on, they're not making tv shows about.
Charles:And let's knock on wood, keep it that way all right, so next week we'll talk about episode number six. I can't believe there were only eight episodes but so much happens in each one yeah, especially the last one, and they, they wrap up. There's so many things going on. It's like how are they going to wrap all this up? And they do, and yeah, but six and seven are also great episodes, so we'll. We'll talk about those next time. I think we went a little bit longer than usual, but good stuff. I will chat with you next week on episode six, dan.
Dan:Sounds good man.
Charles:Bye, bye-bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. We covered a lot of ground in the White Lotus season three, episode five, from confronting uncomfortable truths about masculinity to shocking personal revelations. Next week, things only get more intense. As we dive into episode six. We'll delve into how the already high tensions between the brothers reach a disturbing new level and another male character faces a dark escalation in his internal struggles. You won't want to miss our breakdown of these compelling and unsettling new developments. Tune in next time.
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