
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
The White Lotus: Rich Boys, Real Fragility
Emotional vulnerability is rare. Expectations clash. And some men just can't face reality. Welcome to The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 7, "Killer Instincts," where we unpack the deep-seated issues beneath the surface of paradise.
Charles and Dan break down:
- Rick and Frank's Daring Deception: We delve into the "funny like kind of caper" as Rick and Frank pose as a director and producer. We discuss Frank's struggle with sobriety during the charade and Rick's "pretty smart" but "shady behavior" in orchestrating the confrontation.
- Timothy's Toxic Control: We explore the "erratic behavior" of Timothy and his son Saxon's fears. We discuss Timothy's belief that his work is "all I have" and his disturbing "murder suicide fantasies" stemming from a perceived family fragility.
- Gaitok's Dilemma with Mook: We analyze Gaitok's date with Mook and her desire for a partner with "killer instincts" who is "strong". We discuss the challenges of being a security guard who "abhors violence" and the implications for his future.
- Greg's Moral Quandary: We examine the suspicions around Greg's wife's death and his attempt to "brib[e] Belinda" to keep her silent. We weigh the "safest thing for Belinda to do" when faced with this ethical crossroads.
Also on the table:
- Why the "male loneliness epidemic" is fundamentally a "resilience epidemic".
- The problematic "maladaptive sexual behavior" rooted in past abuse.
- How "rich, very soft men" struggle to "grapple with life on life's terms".
- The role of "grifters" in the "masculinity business" and the danger of hitching your wagon to the "wrong horse".
male loneliness epidemic, which we talked about before, on and off the mics, I think so much of it is not. It's not a loneliness epidemic, in my opinion, it's a resilience epidemic. We have a lack of resilience epidemic among men in this country 100 and it's not. And that doesn't mean you're not physically strong enough to deal with what life throws it's. You're not emotionally strong enough or mentally tough, yes to deal with what life throws at you. Welcome back to the mindfully masculine podcast. This is charles all right.
Charles:This week, dan and I continue our deep dive into the themes of masculinity in the white lotus season three. This is episode seven, which was titled killer instincts. We'll be getting into some of the antics of r and Frank, the family dynamics, the rat lifts, guy Talk's interesting date with Mook, and we'll talk about themes like resilience, financial independence and some of the challenges men face in today's world. We hope you enjoy this thought-provoking discussion and check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom, for full video episodes, audio episodes and anything else we feel like sharing. Thanks, hey Charles. How are else we feel like sharing? Thanks.
Dan:Hey Charles, how are you?
Charles:I'm well, dan, thank you. How are you? I'm doing well, doing well. We're coming up on episode seven of Head Lotus, which this is one of my favorite episodes of the season. I really enjoyed it. This and the finale, I would say, were probably my two favorite episodes. So it's nice really ramping up this episode's titled killer instincts. Based on some of the discussion that guy talked and I don't know what, what's mook's real name? I thought that was her real. I don't think that's her nickname. Let's check real quick. What is mook's name on white lotus? Okay, well, portrayed by lalisa manabal, widely recognized as lisa from the k-pop group blackpink. Yeah, I did not know her from that I did from yeah, my girlfriend's daughter probably.
Dan:Wow, yeah, she's like, oh, she recognized her right away too, like she just walked by the television as she was on set on the screen and she's like, oh, oh, that's so-and-so and I was like what? Yeah?
Charles:I had no idea. I had no idea either. So Mook translates to Pearl. Oh, cute. But I just asked is that the character's real name or nickname? Okay, no, her name is T-h-i-d-a-p-o-n, so teed upon okay oh, teed upon sorenson, let me, let me see how sorenson no? No, not sorenson. Let me see, that's a mix. How to pronounce that name? Okay, the th is usually pronounced t, we know that. So let's see tita, tita pon all right, sorensen would be her full name, so that's one word. No two words.
Dan:But her last name, sorensen, is s-o-r-n-s-i-n, so there's no, there's no e in there gotcha, it's like swedish.
Charles:It's not swedish, sorry, yeah, sorenson sorenson okay yes, so all right, you call her mook for obvious reasons. She seems to have no problem with the nickname. I mean, over here, if you referred to a girl as mook, I don't know if they would like that, but I assume they're all and fine, yeah, so, yeah, her and guy talk had a conversation about well, we'll get to that about many things, and I thought it was an interesting conversation. Multiple conversations they had were had some interesting things.
Charles:We'll start with rick and frank, which was a really I mean it was a funny like kind of caper that they were engaging in, but also with that sort of dark undercurrent of okay, what's this guy gonna do? Is he gonna freak out? Is he gonna shoot somebody? What's what's gonna happen? So, so rick and frank show up proposing as director and producer at the house of the lady and guy that owned the white lotus resort and, yeah, frank is going off the rails. Pretty early on in the process he orders a tea and then changes his order to whiskey. Yep, he's been sober for what?
Charles:three years or something like that and so, yeah, I think he he just was not up to the stress of going through this charade it was just so funny, entertaining, watching frank try to yeah pretend to be this director who? Watched and pretended no things that he obviously didn't know. And what is his way through?
Dan:right. She's like oh, how did you know? I, the whole, she's totally giving him the inquisition. It's just great how it was all the time I'm more of a visual kind of person, that's a director right, yeah, and then, what movies have you directed?
Charles:what movies have I directed action. What movies have I directed? Action movies the Executioner, it was right. It was like two real names, like the Executioner and the.
Dan:Notary my favorite was the Notary. It was a trilogy, yeah.
Charles:So I mean yeah.
Dan:The.
Charles:Enforcer, the Enforcer, enforcer the executioner and the notary. It was great. Yeah and yeah. That yeah, sam rock, and you always wonder how much of that is written and how much is he coming up with and and and.
Dan:He's like. She's like oh, what's it about? Oh, it's about a prostitute who turns into a madam, who I thought this was supposed to be about. My life Like. You're here to figure that out. Very powerful, she knows all the secrets of all the most powerful men in Thailand. She's like all right.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, it was so funny to see they were just.
Dan:That was well done.
Charles:They weren't well prepared for this thing, clearly Seeing them sort of stumble their way through it.
Dan:They pulled it off.
Charles:Rick got what he wanted. He got the the one-on-one confrontation with this guy, yeah, and thankfully did not decide to shoot him or kill him or anything. He just right, just kind of went at him. Yeah, guy got scared and tried to protect himself. Rick felt bad for him, knocked him over his chair.
Dan:Then they left yep, but it was smart when he's just like he told the bot on their way out running out. Yeah, old body goes, old man fell. You better go take care of him so that they can make the escape. I mean, rick's got rick's pretty smart when it comes to yeah, oh, I think.
Charles:What do you want? It's clear that he's engaged in some pretty shady behavior before he knows how to do it. Yeah, he's. He's savvy, yeah, so, and then, at the end of it, rick feels like he accomplished what he set out to accomplish, and it's been resolved, and we yeah, he throws the gun in the garbage. Can right, right, we're like he's we're right to be skeptical that in the penultimate episode it's really resolved. It's like, okay, no, how's this gonna blow back on him?
Dan:yeah, is the is the question that I was left with well, I mean, looking at it just from this episode, he's he throws the gun in the garbage. He's like let's go party right and and and doesn't have to get his arm twisted when frank is ready to go after he had that drink. It's like all right.
Charles:He is how it often works uh-huh people struggling with addiction, like it all takes one to get you back in the patterns. Yeah, yeah, there was some interesting discussion by his girlfriend. What's her name? Again, chelsea, chelsea. Yeah, her and Saxon had some conversations about Rick, where it was like, about their connection and how, the first day I met him, he told me his life story. I thought, okay, well, that's interesting. Is that because Rick is just an honest and vulnerable guy? Or it is possible to use your story and inappropriate levels of self-disclosure to sort of reel people in? And I was wondering is that what he did? Or is he just a super honest and open guy? It doesn't really seem that way. Or did he use his sob story and his emotional disclosures to her as a way to sort of sucker into his world?
Dan:Yeah, I would say B because he's not looking to get healed right. She said they've got a yin and yang relationship and she's like I, just I'm hoping he's pain or something right and she's like eventually one of us is gonna win. So yeah, that is. And he didn't look like he wanted any help. I mean, up until this point doesn't look like he wanted her help at all. So I think he was using it to get hit what he needed at her?
Charles:I think so too. I feel like, yeah, there is too bad, because it'd be nice if they were just two hurt, damaged people who found each other and were able to meet each other's needs. But now, with her talking about him that way, it feels a little bit more like he's the predator out to get what he needs from the world, oh for sure, and she's just getting swept up in that oh yeah, which is which makes it even sadder when you you see how loving and how much she cares about him where I don't know man, that is kind of a bummer, yeah.
Dan:I mean, Frank even asks him before they go off and party. He's like, hey, did you get you what you needed out of that? Or something along those lines right, yeah. So Rick said yeah, yeah, so.
Charles:Yeah, rick's. Rick said yeah, no. So yeah, but again, and I say it was a very poorly planned like philosophically and pragmatically, the whole thing was badly planned. Like, if you say it real fast and you've not done any work on yourself, it might seem yeah, that sounds like a great idea, that sounds like exactly how to solve your problem. But you dig just a little bit under the surface about what his issues are and it's like, okay, maybe you solve this problem, but you're just going to be on to the next problem. So, yeah, I, I don't see you're getting at the wrong, almost certainly not.
Charles:Yeah, so, okay, more upsetting things about saxon and his dad and the rest of the family. I mean, saxon went to his dad and said, hey, I'm noticing all of your sort of erratic behavior here and what's going on. And I think I think at the beginning the dad may have admitted that it was just work stuff or something like that, but that, yep, that did not help allay Saxon's fears, because that's when he disposed like, okay, my work is all I have and my work is tied to your work in a way that will never be separated or divided. People will only ever see me as your son. So if there's a problem with work, that means there's a problem with my life.
Dan:Yeah, he's like I have no hobbies, I've got no interests. This is it, this is my basket. Yeah, I'm tied to you. And he's like I don't mind being tied to you, but if I, since I am, you gotta let me know. Right, I need to. Tim's lies to his face and he's just like no, everything's good, go have a good time. We're here to have a good time, don't worry about it. Basically, and it just after his son basically begs him. We're shaking a lot.
Charles:It's okay, yeah, I mean after, yeah, when it's. It's just such a such a toxic cycle between the two of them, because it's like when the son goes to him with that, his impulse is not okay. I need to level with this kid and be honest with him so he knows exactly what's going on and can prepare for it. It's no, I'm going to double down on no, everything's fine. When it's clearly not fine, yeah, and then it turns into let me start thinking about murder-suicide.
Dan:Yeah, because he just looks at his family as being so fragile that they can't handle anything. So now he's got to put him out of his misery. Basically right, because he's not gonna be able to handle it yeah, and look, I mean, is his family that fragile?
Charles:probably not most.
Charles:Most humans are more resilient than we give them credit for, but if they are that fragile, it's because he made them that way, because he needed them that way yeah yeah, and so, yeah, I have very, very little love for timothy in this, especially when he starts thinking I know what's best for them, and what's best for them is if they're just dead. That yeah I. I have a very visceral, angry reaction to that. When I see it, I'm like this son of a bitch. I mean, it infuriates me that he would take on probably because of my own level, my own relationship to autonomy and independence the idea that anybody would take on making that decision for another person, like, oh, you can't handle this, so you'd be better off dead. And so his, his, his murder, suicide fantasies are, for lack of a better word, very triggering to me and how dare you so?
Dan:I I could definitely I agree with you there on that point with saxon. But his wife basically said he, he said she's like I don't know if I could live like I don't, I don't know if I'd want to live without that money and stuff like that. That's true. That probably poisoned his mind a little bit.
Charles:I'm sure it did, but it's still not saying hey, if anything ever goes sideways, just kill me. Even people that would say stuff like that for dramatic effect in most cases would not actually not mean it, and so, yeah, I mean it's.
Dan:But now he's in this altered state of mind because he's popping those pills, he's drinking, he's under that crazy amount of stress.
Charles:He knows he wouldn't want to live, so all of that is a filter that he's using now to interpret this information yeah, and whether, whether the people in that family are, clinically speaking, narcissists or not, right, they certainly display many narcissistic tendencies and so, yeah, that that can be a driver for I mean people, people like that in that position struggling with those issues can often feel like, okay, well, I'd be, I'd be better off dead than having anybody see me for what I really am, and the vast majority do not actually hurt themselves when faced with those kinds of setbacks, but some of them do. And yeah, it's a messed up situation and honestly, I do blame Timothy, for I mean, look, you can't have it both ways. If you want to be a a traditional gender role, family role kind of guy where the man's the provider, blah, blah, blah, I was like okay, but then when things go south and your family starts to fall apart because you weren't who you actually said you were, then that burden's on you too and it's your job to clean up that mess, not not necessarily theirs. I mean, ultimately, everybody's responsible for their own actions and their own mental health.
Charles:But it's like, look, this ratliff built this whole life for his family where I'm the big shit, I'm the provider, I'm the millionaire or potentially billionaire, and so love me because I'm those things and then, okay, now I may not be those things anymore. So why are they? Why would they continue to love me? It's like, yeah, good question, why would they? I mean, you haven't invested anything in your connections, in your relationships. Yeah, all you've been right off, yeah, all you've been is a conduit for wealth and status, and so, yeah, you're no longer the conduit for wealth and status. It's a fair question to say what use will they have for you, right? Maybe none, yeah, and now you got to live with that too.
Dan:Yeah yeah, it's interesting that mike white does that. In a lot of the the lotus episode, like the white lotus seasons, there's always somebody in there where money is basically being used as a substitute for or for other qualities or is sacrifice.
Charles:The other qualities are sacrificed for having a lot of a lot of money right yeah, and I think that I can't say what the percentages or proportions of that are. But but for a lot of the very wealthy people that show up at four seasons or four seasons adjacent resorts for multiple weeks, for not even multiple weeks, so just a week-long vacation in a place like that is very expensive, and so the people who have that money have probably had to sacrifice something to get that level of affluence that they can afford it. And what is it they had to sacrifice? For some it was their connection. It was health.
Charles:It was. For some of them maybe not, but you know, I think, I think it's. It's legitimate to say okay, we look at a group of people showing up at this place who can afford to be at this place yeah so they've made some trade-offs to be there yeah, another one is greg right.
Dan:He made some trade-offs with his values and his morals by killing off his, his ex-wife, who thinks, I don't know for sure no. But but now he's bribing belinda in this episode right to kind of keep her mouth shut. She's now wrestling with her own ethics and morals for accepting that money or or considering accepting that money, right yeah.
Charles:So I guess that is a legitimate question of what did he do or not do? And is he just like okay, I was just a government employee. My rich wife was on a boat with some guys. I wasn't there.
Charles:She ends up killing I believe killing many of them yeah and they then taking a tumble off and bonking her head and drowning. Yeah, and so do I want to deal with the stigma of that, or do I want to change my name and take her money and go live somewhere else in peace? I assume he was involved in it. Yeah, I think it's certainly an 80 or 90 chance that he was involved in it. But what he's saying is not instantly verifiable as being false either. Like it's like. Oh, he's definitely lying, and that's why. That's why the story with Belinda is interesting, because she can't know for sure that he definitely killed her. What he's telling her could be the truth, and so that gives her an out to say, okay, I'll, I'll take his money and leave him alone, because there is a chance that he's telling me exactly what truly happened and if it's not, she's minimizing her risk of getting rubbed out.
Charles:Correct the way, blint, the way his wife did yeah, which is which which raises an interesting point what's the safest thing for belinda to do, right, is it? Is it refuse the money? Is it take the money? Is it push for more money? I would say it's either refuse the money or take the money. I think refusing the money might be the safest thing for her. I don't know, you don't think so.
Dan:I don't think so he knows that, she knows who he really is. I don't think that's the safest route. I don't think that's the safest route. I don't see and neither did, neither did his son in that episode either.
Charles:See, I would worry if I, if you, if you take the money, then he can think down the road okay, she took the money, she could come after me for more money at some point down the road where, if she was able to sell him on the idea she didn't ask for the money, that's true, it's not like she was.
Dan:She was able to sell him on the idea she didn't ask for the money. That's true. It's not like she was. She was extorting him. It was true give me money, or I'm gonna say something right. He was like here's some money for your business and letting me live in peace in exchange. So this was coming from him. So in that, in that respect, I.
Charles:I think I mean if I was in his position, which I never would be if somebody came to me with the listen. I appreciate the offer. I'm not taking the money, but I'm also never opening my mouth to anybody, so I am not someone you have to pay off or worry about.
Dan:She did say that too. She's like I need to sleep on it. I'm not looking to make your life more difficult or anything else like that, but I need to sleep on it. So we'll see.
Charles:I guess we'll see. I guess they're. They're both probably pretty even that taking the money, not taking the money, it's based on what you say when you take the money or take the money. I think that's probably the. That's part of it too, absolutely yeah. So I don't know, I mean know. I mean I think the most moral thing to do if you think that he killed his wife is to not take the money.
Dan:call all the police, but she said in that year she's like what police do we call the thai police, italian police, american police?
Charles:just call all the police yeah, I, you know maybe that there's nothing she can do legally to get him in trouble. Right, she wanted to.
Dan:But like what. So I mean, yeah, I mean I guess the police would just grab him because they couldn't question him or something, I think, because he left right.
Charles:It would depend on what evidence they had and what the extradition treaty was and all that I don't know. I imagine most of these people are in Thailand because there is no extradition treaty for where they're at. Sorry, my phone is going off, even though I do not deserve. I'm not sure it's just my watch that is not obeying the do not deserve. Let me see what I have to do about that. Bear with me here. Silent mode is on now.
Charles:Yeah, so that is a certainly an interesting situation. Look, while we're talking, while we've addressed the rat lifts and greg, this sexual situation that the girlfriend is asking for with saxon, right, yes, yes. So greg had an issue, I guess, when he was a kid. His parents were leaving the door open while they were having sex with each other so that he could see and hear what was going on. Let's be clear that's abuse. Yeah, he was abused and as a result of that abuse, he has developed some maladaptive sexual behavior.
Charles:And the thing that, another thing that made me roll my eyes at Saxon was this idea of him acting like he's too good to participate in this, like I wouldn't say yes to it either, but he's willing to have sex with this guy's wife behind his back and act like that's fine, but he's not going to have sex in front of the guy's back with his wife because that's wrong. I mean, and I definitely got the hold on. I never said that's wrong, but it was like that's what do you think I? I'm not that kind of yeah. He was definitely moralizing there where he's actually too good to participate in that behavior, right where it's like it's okay to say I'm not into that, I don't want to do it. But the idea of it's fine to be the guy that's banging his wife behind his back, but I'm too, I'm too, yeah, right, engage in this weird threesome stuff yeah, like well, I think I think he's a prick.
Dan:Yeah, I think he also was probably freaked out from what happened with his younger brother. I'm sure you mean that drove him to a little bit more conservative side, because it's still because he's.
Charles:He's a little messed up in the head now yeah, I, I could get that, but it still doesn't give you an excuse to act like you're too good for for something that somebody else is into. I mean the I should never. The response should be I'm not into that. I'm not gonna do that and best of luck to you. But you know the the idea of condescending to what somebody's into, right, because you're too good for that behavior, especially coming from him, is very suspect and very cringy. Yeah, so I think. But you're right, he's dealing with a lot of stuff right now between the dads Because I'm sure he doesn't believe his dad's assurances. Why would he Correct believe his dad's assurances?
Dan:why would he correct? And I mean, I think he was already skeptical when he found out that greg knew that they slept together. I remember he was already reluctant to go to the party, but then he's up for it and he brings his whole family yeah, that's so I think, I think he's showing his.
Dan:he's got all these conflicts about who he is and and, and you know what he's about as well, because then he's, maybe he has a conversation with Chelsea about oh, I could be spiritual and I could, I might surprise you, and they even go, and they, they. She tries to get him to meditate and and she's a little touchy, yeah, she has that.
Charles:Yeah, and and she's a little touchy, yeah, she has to end it. Yeah, yeah, when he, when he was remarking on all the old guys there with the, the young women, young wives or whatever, don't they don't? They know that they're only interested for their money. And she's like, yeah, that's you in 30 years. He's like, why are you so mean to me? That's not, yeah, look, I mean rich or poor. Patrick schwarzenegger looks, or greg looks. It's like, yeah, if you're not, if you're not authentically connecting with people, you will either end up alone or with people who are with you for reasons other than who you actually are, and so chelsea was absolutely right. If he stays the course, he is going to be one of those guys, because you're yeah, you're not going to, you're not going to attract people based on the fake version of you that you put out there and it's so ironic because the mom is having a conversation with one of the young girls there and she's like oh, why are you with this old?
Dan:this guy was because of the money. He's like. She's like if, if you're in danger, let me know I'll. I'll get you out of this and and she's just right. And she's just like no, I love, I love him. And she's like and she's like you can't ask me that the mom was just like. I can get you out of this.
Charles:So yeah, that whole family is so judgmental, so Lachlan is hanging out with his sister at the at the and he's he's getting stuff out of it, he's having a good experience.
Charles:I mean, some of that could be in response to what he went through with his brother recently too, and then he ends up saying that he wants to do a gap year and stay there with her and she reacts unfavorably to it. She doesn't really get into the reasons why, but she's kind of not into him and her doing it together. That's clear, and I could tell that that the actor did a good job of communicating. That hurt his feelings and confused him a little bit. Like what's the? Yeah what's that about?
Dan:And it's true, I at that age I probably would have been confused too, Like she was so excited to have him there to spend the night with, with her. And then now he's just like, oh, I'm really into this, so she, and she's just like I need to think about it kind of thing.
Charles:Yeah, yeah, that was not a very kind reaction.
Dan:I felt bad for Kim.
Charles:I did too, absolutely, but they definitely close the loop on that in the next episode and go into more detail.
Dan:He's like I don't want to let my dark pastures out of Dexter, but my dark, my dark shit come out, kind of thing. So he's, he's gonna need to be there. It wasn't anything. I feel superficial.
Charles:And then she's, she's just like whoa, which I think in his case, I think that dark shit was basically just a ineffectively managed my desire to connect to my brother. Yeah, now I feel guilty over it, I don't 100 yeah super complicated.
Charles:I think it was just. That was a weird thing that happened and now I feel bad about it. Yeah, and so he's like let me go away for a year and work it out, which there are worse ways he could for sure try to get up to that. All right, let's get to a guy talking yes, so they're out on what looks like a date.
Dan:She's got a cute little dress on. I liked it.
Charles:Yeah, I think he certainly thought it was a date and treated it like a date. I don't know what her long-term intentions were, but she kind of communicated some of them, which was he told her about the conversation he had with his boss, where he doesn't have the killer instinct and he is trying to be a moral Buddhist who doesn't pursue violence, and she doesn't really seem all that into it.
Dan:Yeah, she's like well, it was in defense. She's like in defense it's okay and you live in this world and you need to be strong. So she's putting a little pressure on him yeah, and look she is.
Charles:She's allowed to be attracted to what she's attracted to. She's allowed to search for what she's searching for in a potential mate or partner. And it's not a guy talks job or our job or really any guy's job or really any person's job to say you're immoral because you're not attracted to what I'm offering where I tend to see more of that on men's, on the men's side than the women's side, at least in our Western society of girls are what they're into. And if you're into a girl who's not into you or due to lack of a particular characteristic that she's attracted to, then okay, well then we'll insult and deride her for not being into what I am. That happens online very frequently. In real life I'm not sure how often it happens, but certainly I just girls. There will be girls who are into muscular men. There will be girls who are into tall men. There will be girls who are into black men, white men, whatever bald men, all men or well-haired men, I mean they're, yeah people.
Charles:Judging people for what they're into does not seem like the right thing to do or make a lot of sense it's a waste of time, yeah, so.
Dan:So what are you going to talk them into being into something that they're not?
Charles:come on, guy talk does not seem to have the predilection for, or even the stomach for, physical violence. Which good? I mean you, ideally not, not every, not every guy has to behave as if it's their job to fend off the raiding village raiding party from the village next door. I mean we know, we don't live in that world anymore those guys should not be security guards correct. I agree with that. Yeah right, yeah you, if you're willing, if you want to be a security guard, yeah then or attract women who like security guards correct, then you need to be prepared for the reality of your situation.
Charles:And she mentioned something like I thought you were ambitious, I thought you wanted a better job. Like you can be ambitious and you can want a better job without necessarily being in the security industry, there are other things you could be doing and should be doing. I mean, yeah, if your job I would say for a security guard more than other jobs you have to be prepared for the fact that you might need to put your hands on somebody in a violent way.
Dan:I mean, I think in this case, one possibility is that Mook doesn't necessarily want a security job, a guy who's in security but maybe who's ambitious, Right. So you could have a different job but just be the best whatever you're doing. It could be in that, in that field right it could be.
Charles:The issue that she has with him is hey, you're in, you're in a job where you're telling me that you don't have or desire the skills for the job that you're in, so what kind of a future could you possibly have in that job and what kind of a future could you have as somebody that you know I want to build a financially solid household with, when you're saying I'm in this job and I don't have, I don't want to have, the skills that the job requires.
Charles:So, yeah, something along the lines of hey, my plan is to get into this other job or field or whatever may or may not offset this for her, because, look, there are plenty of fields where you don't have to have any interest in getting violent with people and you can excel and and not have that. That said, there's still. Look, I think there's going to be a concern on behalf of most women who want to feel like, okay, if I'm with a guy, then I want to be fairly confident that if something unexpected and violent happens, he's going to be able to get me out of that situation safely. Yeah, that doesn't mean necessarily being the strongest guy in the room who could beat everybody else up or the guy who's willing to pull out a gun and shoot everybody. But, like I need to know that you're prepared to navigate those unpleasant circumstances.
Charles:We might find ourselves in right and the fact that he's a security guard who hates violence is a is a communicator of. Hey, I might not be the guy that knows how to. When I'm in, when I'm in a situation, I may not know what it takes to handle that situation, because a guy who abhors violence doesn't know what it takes to be a security guard.
Dan:Yeah, but also, what kind of how are you operating in this world if you are kind of sticking yourself into a situation where you are setting yourself up for failure and you're not doing anything to change that, because literally you are not, I mean, unless you change jobs? But you, if you're not changing jobs, then you're kind of setting yourself up for failure, right, and it's just like if you don't have the, if you don't have the wherewithal to realize that that's what you're doing, or you don't have the motivation to change it, that's also not a good situation that you want to align yourself with. If you're a partner of that person, right?
Charles:yeah, and I mean I don't know what it's like in thailand, but here I know you have to get some training and education to be a security guard, but it's not years and years of your life, you know. So I mean the same process that you, you followed to become whatever level of certified security guard you have to in thailand. Yep, the same money and time and whatever could probably be spent developing some other skill that you could have a better shot at moving up a ladder and and getting to where you want to be financially yeah, I had friends who basically they wanted to be cops and they started out as security guards.
Dan:But that's because that was a logical progression. They didn't, they weren't like, wanted to be doctors and started out security guards like no, no, no or vice versa. It's not.
Charles:Yeah. So one of the things I've noticed I've heard and seen a lot of memes over the last couple of weeks about the male loneliness epidemic which we talked about before on and off the mics. I think so much of it is not, as it's not a loneliness epidemic In my opinion, it's a resilience epidemic. We have a lack of resilience epidemic among men in this country 100%.
Charles:And it's not.
Charles:And that doesn't mean you're not physically strong enough to deal with what life throws at you, you're not emotionally strong enough or mentally tough yes to deal with what life throws at you.
Charles:And I think, guys, one of the most valued skills I see in the people that I consider successful is they can honestly and openly put all of their effort and desire into accomplishing something and then, when it doesn't work out, they can say, man, that sucks.
Charles:I really put everything I had into that and I didn't get the result I wanted to. I'm going to take a minute, lick my wounds and then get back to the next goal and whether that is in pursuing a job, pursuing a woman, whatever it is, this ability and I think what happens is when guys don't have that example from their fathers or a mentor that says here's how you do that, then as soon as they hit the first roadblock of I tried to get this thing, this person, this job, whatever it didn't work out. Now I'm just going to go back into my cocoon and be lonely, and I think a lot of the guys that I see struggling with that loneliness it's because they're not willing to put themselves out there a second time for whatever it was that they were going after. Yeah, because the first time hurt so bad.
Dan:And or they don't have enough examples of somebody going through that and actually eventually succeeding and seeing the payoffs, but also, like you said, is seeing how you recover from that failure.
Charles:It's one thing to read about or whatever, but if you have somebody close to you in your life that you can actually look at and see going through it, that's so much of a better teacher yeah, and, and I and the one, the many of these characters in this show reek of a lack of resilience to me and I tell you the being soft in that way, which soft is a lot of baggage with that term and it's a very big term. But from shows like this and witnessing the news, popular media, social media, being a soft man is not limited to any kind of group as far as race, ethnicity, religion, political leanings and even well, I mean, this show has some very rich, very soft men who just cannot, cannot grapple with life on life's terms because they're, they just don't have what it takes and I would say even there's, there's a chance that wealth and affluence may even more poorly prepare you, for me, for your life of resilience than being poor does.
Dan:Oh, absolutely, because you need to figure anything out, and there's a lot less consequences when you can't figure something out, and I think I don't think that you need to be rich and affluent for that to be a factor. These days, with technology and almost all the progress that we've made as human beings and tools and everything else that we have to make our lives easier, we don't need to figure out as much stuff on a full human wide scale. So you're right, I think it's not preparedness when we fail and when we have to figure things out. That's when we become resilient. So that's why, a lot of times, we need to actually practice that intentionally. In order to become resilient is to figure things out. We need to, like, put our own challenges and obstacles in our own way in order to to figure out how to, how to get stuff done.
Charles:Right, yeah, yeah.
Dan:And if we don't, then you're right. Where are we getting that training from? It's not just from daily life. No, certainly I think we've got to be intentional with it these days and it's a mixed blessing it is possible to.
Charles:There. There are people who didn't get it and realized, oh, I, I'm lacking this, I need to go find this and you can go out there and you can find the stories of authors, coaches, people who got done the kinds of things that you want to get done and came from the kinds of places you came from. But I mean, the optimal way to get that is going to be, as a man, from your dad and but you know, so that's another way you could say the male loneliness epidemic is related to the male fatherhood epidemic, because there's a lot of dads out there who didn't get it from their dad, so how are they going to pass it along to their sons if it's not? Yeah, fatherhood epidemic, because there's a lot of dads out there who didn't get it from their dad, so how are they going to pass it along to their son if it's not?
Charles:yeah and you know when, when you realize, okay, my, I don't have the skills that I need, so I need to go find them.
Charles:That's a mixed blessing, too, because there's a lot of people out there who will sell themselves, as I have the answers that you're looking for, and they really don't have the answers that will lead to any kind of health or happiness, but they do have the answers that will lead to them getting rich and and I, yeah, and I share my personal belief is that the, the male, the male health and wellness or the masculinity business is ripe with grifters who will will tell you a story that both makes them rich and look super tough and super successful, but it doesn't really lead to the kinds of fulfillment or relationships or health or happiness that you, you actually want deep down. So it's just you'll bounce from grievance to grievance your whole life. Who am I going to be angry at now for not having the things that I want? And it doesn't really do anything.
Charles:Whereas if you can develop that resilience, you can very easily say oh, okay, this guy's got some interesting things to say. I'm going to dig a little bit deeper. And then you dig a little deeper and you're like this, this guy's still bullshit. I don't want to dedicate years of my life listen to what he has to say. And when you're mentally resilient and emotionally resilient, you can say, okay, well, that was interesting. I wasted some time on this guy, but now I can say I was wrong and move on to somebody better. Yeah, where? Again, if you lack that resilience, it's like no, I, I bought this guy's torch, now I'm stuck for life. I gotta, I gotta sound like an act like this guy for the rest of my life. Because admitting I was wrong, that I hitched my wagon to the wrong horse. I couldn't handle that, so now I'm stuck.
Charles:Yeah, and so, yeah, there's no easy answers to this. I feel like there are some good smart guys out there talking about about these struggles good smart guys out there talking about about these struggles, but not enough of them. So hopefully we'll get three listeners to this episode instead of the usual two and we'll hey, we'll have huge growth, huge spike progress, not perfection, exactly hockey, hockey stick growth. All right, thanks, dan. I can't wait to talk about the finale finale sweet sounds good all right.
Charles:Thanks so much for sticking with us for the entire episode. We certainly appreciate it. Again, check out our website mindfullymasculinecom for full video and audio episodes and join us next week when we're going to review the finale, the last episode of this season of White Lotus and what happens to all these characters. Thanks, and we'll talk to you next time.