Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
The Let Them Theory: New Friends, Old Friends, and No Friends
Friendship in adulthood isn’t what it used to be — and in this conversation, we get into why that’s not always a bad thing. Charles and Dan dig into the myths we carry from childhood about how friends “should” work, and how those expectations crash into reality once proximity, free time, and shared schedules disappear.
We break down Mel Robbins’ “three pillars” of friendship — proximity, timing, and energy — and give our unfiltered takes on which ones actually matter. There’s plenty of pushback on the idea that making friends requires constant effort, plus a lively debate over whether walking up to strangers is brave… or just weird.
Along the way: the “friendship market” nobody talks about, why some relationships naturally run their course, and how to stop taking it personally when they do. If you’ve ever wondered whether to fight for a friendship or let it fade, this episode has opinions.
Loneliness, to me, is a byproduct of mediocrity. You're lonely because you don't have something to offer that people want. And, just like when we talked about any of our books on dating, like Atomic Attraction or the Man's Guide to Women or what was Glover's book Date Essentials for Men, a lot of them refer to the dating market and similarly, we participate in friendship markets and attention markets, and all that means is there's supply and there's demand, and if you want the thing, that is, if you want a resource that is not unlimited, then you have to figure out how to allocate your effort to get the thing that you need, whether that is food, shelter, stock, relationships, friendships, whatever and if you are not bringing enough value to the table that someone else is willing to sacrifice their time and attention to get some of your value, then you're going to find yourself lonely. Yeah, welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
Charles:This is Charles, and today we're talking about adult friendship. For some people it's a constant source of stress. We're covering three chapters from the let them theory about why making friends as a kid was automatic, why some friendships fade and how to create new ones as an adult. Along the way, we'll dig into the great scattering after school and college, the hours it really takes to build closeness, and the idea that sometimes friendships end because the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. You'll hear our unfiltered takes on timing, energy and whether striking up conversations with strangers is a bold move or a flashing neon red flag. If you've ever wondered whether adult friendships need to be worked on at all, or you just want permission to stop feeling guilty when it fades this episode's for you, check out our website, mindfullymasculinecom, for all of our episodes, audio and video, and anything else we feel like sharing. Thanks and enjoy.
Dan:Good morning Charles, how you doing.
Charles:Okay, Dan, how are you?
Dan:I am doing well.
Charles:Let's talk about adult friendships and we're going to cover three chapters in this episode from the Let them Theory and we're going to yeah, this is going to be interesting because there's a lot of stuff in these three that I'm like. I got a lot of opinions, so we'll start with the idea. Let's start a little bit about how our friendships started and came about when we were kids.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:It was all pretty much proximity based, like you were friends with the people that were around you and that would be a function of your class, your school, your neighborhood, your t-ball team, whatever. That's how you met people and you were just friends with the people, some of the people that you met, usually not all of them. You wouldn't become close friends with everybody, but you would make friendships based on people you were around.
Dan:Yeah, and you were around the same people all the time. Because of school, because of after-curricular, after-school activities groups, sports teams, et cetera.
Charles:Yeah, and then, depending on whether, I mean certainly if your family moved for dad's job or whatever, that could disrupt those people from still remaining your friends, or if you went to a different high school than middle school like you went to the one in a different town or something like that, that could disrupt it. Going off to college would certainly get in the way of your friendships and then, after college, going off to get a job or whatever would would be a factor. So proximity at as you get older, proximity becomes less and less of a reliable factor in determining who you're going to be friends with. She calls that the great scattering.
Charles:Then, once you find yourself in your career, then you know as an adult, you're spending much more time with your coworkers than you are with your friends or your family. Daily basis, I mean, cause a lot of the time you spend with your family after you work full time is you sleeping, so that doesn't really count. So it's really just the time before work and the time after work. And so, yeah, you're more reliably going to be spending time with your coworkers than you are with your friends and family, certainly with your friends.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:If you have a friend that you don't work with, then you're only going to continue being their friend if you make time to to cultivate that relationship. So here's the thing I, when she talks about the way, her approach to friendship and the stress and loneliness that she experienced, it was very hard for me to relate to it. I've just always assumed that I would stay friends with the people I was meant to stay friends with. And if somebody moved or somebody got busy or somebody started a family, that's just the way it's supposed to work. Where she talks about just having these overwhelming feelings of loneliness and regret and stuff like that, and it's like I just don't see friendship that way. I don't. That's not a struggle that Mel Robbins and I share.
Charles:And the other thing is, also, I picked up a little bit more of what I consider to be her lack of self-awareness, where I don't know man, I'm trying not to be super judgmental, but it's really difficult when she talks about this stuff. It's like, okay, okay, well, maybe some of your friendships are going away because you're too much work. It's too much. It takes too much effort and too much investment to be your friend. And some people, yeah, decide like, consciously or unconsciously, they decide okay, having mel in my life, the juice is not worth the squeeze. So let's stop making appointments and dates to hang out with Mel and her husband, because she's too much work to be around.
Dan:Yeah, and I think she talks about that a little bit in terms of the other two pillars. Besides the proximity, it's the timing and energy. So that's one of the reasons she mentions both our coworkers. Yes, we're around them all the time, but we might not make friends and connect with them because the timing might be in different stages of their life.
Dan:Yeah, like you know if they're older or younger they're going through things, have kids, have grown kids, exactly, and, like you said just right there, the energy like maybe Mel, requires a lot more energy than other people.
Charles:I didn't like her use of the word energy, because energy can be such a catch all phrase like like vibes. It's like okay, well, what are you really saying here? It's like.
Dan:Yeah, it could also be. Yeah, it could also be vibes. Energy could be vibes. Like I don't like the vibe she's giving off.
Charles:Yeah, like, yeah, like we talked and she is just. She's too much for me. Yeah, and as someone who's been referred to as too much before. Like I get that's not the greatest way to talk about people, but he is too. She is too much for me. She would require way too much investment for what she could possibly return.
Dan:Yeah, yeah, I can see that she does mention that in chapter 13, that she that she wasn't that proud of the way she behaved with her couple friends and she even called herself a complete bitch, if you remember that I don't know from chapter 13 about how she was acting with those couple friends. So yeah, I think up until that chapter I agree with you. I think in that chapter.
Dan:I think she recognized how she was basically behaving like a child when it came to her friendships with those other three couples. That she had said and she even says things like I wouldn't want me around either. So how she acts now I have no idea, but I think it goes to show. I mean, I think the point she was making was, you don't know. First of all, the energy.
Charles:Yeah, you could be bringing some negative energy or vibes to those friendships and relationships and then all of a sudden, the proximity and timing starts to they start to kind of pull away, and so now the proximity isn't going to be there anymore either, because you're not bringing in the kind of energy that people are going to want to be around yeah, and I mentioned to you I wanted to do a short series on the male loneliness epidemic and I did reach out to our friend rob and he said he would be down to join us for that I might get back to him. We have a little bit better handle on the schedule when we're going to be finishing this book. I want to spend a couple episodes on that, but I'll get into a little bit of my thoughts on it right now. Which is on that? But I'll get into a little bit of my thoughts on it right now. Which is and I think this would apply to Mel and her difficulties that she's had with adult friendships Loneliness to me is a by-product of mediocrity.
Charles:You're lonely because you don't have something to offer that people want and just like in in. When we talked about any of our books on dating, like Atomic Attraction or the Man's Guide to Women or what was Glover's book Date Essentials for Men a lot of them refer to the dating market and similarly we participate in friendship markets and attention markets and all that means is there's supply and there's demand and if you want the thing that is, if you want a resource that is not unlimited, then you have to figure out how to allocate your effort to get the thing that you need, whether that is food, shelter, stock relationships, friendships, whatever. And if you are not bringing enough value to the table that someone else is willing to sacrifice their time and attention to get some of your value, then you're going to find yourself lonely, yeah.
Dan:Somehow saw one woman that she connected with briefly in the town and she was sobbing and feeling bad for herself.
Charles:She was out for a walk with her daughters, crying about how lonely she was.
Dan:And the daughters made her go up to the house, knock on the door and introduce herself and say hey is so-and-so home. I connected with her once, yeah, or the other story of her going to a coffee shop and introducing herself to the barista as well as the couple next to her that had been sitting there the whole time. I was dying to hear your take on her suggestions on on getting put going first. Whole let them theory is let me go first and ridiculous compliment somebody.
Dan:say hi to somebody I was outraged as I thought you were would be yeah yeah.
Charles:So let's start with the first one. If you are a grown person and you're going for a nice evening stroll in your neighborhood with your adult children and they have to comfort your uncontrollable sobbing that you don't have any friends, you need to get your shit together. Like seriously, who, what good person, is going to put that burden on their daughters? Like let's walk around and I'm going to cry to you about how I don't have any friends.
Dan:Well, daughters weren't having it, so that's why they dragged her up to the house and was like hey, here's your friend and then she introduces herself.
Charles:The husband answers the door and she introduces the daughter, like, introduces her as this is my mom. She's really lonely, she doesn't have any friends. If you that introduction is self-selecting, the only kind of person that would be interested in being your mom's friend after that introduction is someone who also has something wrong with them. Interesting, interesting, I mean, think about it If you got a knock on your door from some woman and she's like this is my husband steve.
Dan:He's really lonely and he needs a friend now I think the context here too is that she did meet that woman at some point before. Who knows what kind of connection or conversation they had. So if I had met a guy, I had a good conversation with him, and he knocked on his yeah and that and that happened, it would be a little bit weird. A hundred percent.
Charles:It would be the end of the story for me. I don't care.
Dan:I don't care. I thought, like I legitimately had a good conversation with him, I'd be like I'd be open to talking to him once again. I wouldn't be setting up any dates, but I'd be open to having a conversation no, under.
Charles:I don't care how good my initial connection with somebody was, if my second interaction with them was their kid or their spouse telling me about how lonely they were and how much they needed friends, I'd be like, well, you're at the wrong house, because this, this whole sick family system that you've got going on disqualifies you from being in my life.
Dan:I know why you'd infect this house, slam correct.
Charles:Yeah, absolutely yeah, that would absolutely not like. That's not a way, it's. I mean, I'm sure we've all interacted with people who it's like okay, they're just trying a little too hard, like they are yeah, that's, and that was my take on the introducing yourself all over the coffee shop.
Dan:I was just like yeah, I mean we.
Dan:We've talked about the idea of cold approaching in dating relationships, where it's like now, the other thing I was thinking too is I feel like a woman can get away with that a little bit more than a guy could in society. I feel like like talking to a couple, like engaging and having a conversation with a couple, engaging with a barista or other people, like that I feel. I mean, I just feel like it's a little bit less threatening, it's a little bit less weird, because I feel women have just this feeling that they are more social creatures, they're more, they're looking and they connect better. They have better conversations, better communication skills than men, and I feel it's a little bit more natural for women to to kind of congregate and build communities around them and again, this just can be my skewed view Whereas men when they do that, it's a little bit I don't know it, just it just seems, for whatever reason, just feels a little bit weirder for me if a guy did that versus a woman.
Charles:Yeah, there is more potential for predation by a man than by a woman, meaning okay, what is this guy trying to get from me? Is it a financial scam? Is it sex? It's like what is it that this person might? Which of my resources might this person threaten? Like why are they initiating with me?
Dan:Yeah, and she mentions the other. Another way to go about this is to join group classes. Yes, through group activity, and then yeah.
Charles:That's what I count as the. The antidote to the male loneliness epidemic is find something you care enough about to get to become an expert at it and have it be a some sort of a social activity, and then you won't be lonely anymore. Yeah, If you get good at something that other people are interested in, then your social life will take care of itself.
Charles:I mean, I would say, is you don't even need to be good before you join one of these groups and you become good, exactly, but you bring enough passion about it that you're willing to spend the time that it takes to get good right. Because, yeah, whether it's a run group or dungeons and dragons group or whatever it is, yeah, if you put in the reps to be the person who really knows what they're doing, then people will want to be around you and you're there, I think, with the intent of enjoying yourself and getting into that activity, rather than this.
Dan:I'm looking to connect, like if you connect as a side, a side benefit from that, that's great, but you're not there just to make connections.
Charles:Right, right, whether that's friends or trying to meet girls or whatever, yes, I had a guy.
Dan:We went, we were down in South Florida and we did an outdoor yoga class, which was really cool, and one of the guys in the class just started talking to me hey, have you been here before, ask questions, whatever. And it was a little bit odd because nobody else is really talking. Whatever turns out, he's a financial advisor, a financial planner, and he's looking for clients. So there was a little bit ulterior motive there. It took me a little couple minutes to figure it out, but yeah, so clearly he was there. He was not there for the yoga.
Charles:I'd be, I would be living. Oh, I'd be so angry.
Dan:But it's hard to cause. He was nice, I you can't be. I don't feel like I could be angry about it, so yeah, I would.
Charles:I'll have to watch out for that. If I ever do an outdoor yoga class, Somebody starts talking to me. So what line of work are you in?
Dan:It wasn't quite that it didn't start out that way. That's not what I would.
Charles:Okay, I see Pretending to be nice, I immediately be like oh so are you in a commission based sale?
Dan:commission based industry. Just starting out in an industry looking to build your client base?
Charles:Yeah, yeah, gross, yeah. So I would say, yeah, the her idea of cold approaching people. I mean, yeah, again, I would like somebody who, some guy who just saw me in public and decided to strike up a conversation with me. It's like, okay, that's good for you that you're willing to do that, but the fact that you're willing to do that tells me that you're not the kind of person I'm going to be friends with, because none of my friends would do that.
Dan:None of my friends would go out on a fishing for friends expedition by cold, depreshing strangers. And do you think that's because that subliminally communicates a message of desperation and need and putting too much emphasis on relationships rather than doing your own thing?
Charles:Yeah, absolutely, it's an attitude of I'm going to go out and make friends. Yeah, it's like. Yeah. I mean to say like yeah, I'm also not friends with any guys who are like I'm gonna go out and get dates, like I'm gonna go out and just live my fucking life and what happens that's me, that's my friends, that's how we are.
Dan:and so the idea of reading this book or one of the other books and mean what she's talking about is what Glover refers to as being a geek with technique In that respect yeah, I think her whole point here is that it is more difficult as adults to make friends and create friendships and don't if somebody kind of fades away from you that you've been friends with, don't freak out because they've got other things going on in their life that you don't know about. It could be they could be dealing with an aging parent, they could be dealing with problems at work, so I know one of the things she's talking about is, if somebody doesn't text you back that you've been friends with, let them. Let the people be. Don't force them to be your friend and don't hold these expectations.
Charles:Don't think of them as an enemy.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And I agree with that part. I and I also agree with what she says about some. Friendships are meant for a season, not for forever.
Charles:Yeah, that's the point and the thing is yeah, it's. I mean, this is one of the reasons. On the business side, I don't. I don't have contracts with my clients, because I never want to be in a position where one of my clients is like, oh, I really don't want to work with Charles anymore, but I guess I have to, and you don't want that. In your friendships, you know, or in your romantic relationships, you don't want people to be in a position where it's like, I mean, even think about it in a marriage like, oh, I wish I could leave Charles, but I'm dependent on him for my finances, so I can't, I gotta stay in this marriage. It was like I don't, I wouldn't want that. It's like okay, you decided you need to go. Let's figure out a way that you can go, cause I don't wanna, I don't want you stuck here, cause you don't think you'll be able to eat if you're not still my wife.
Charles:So, yeah, yeah, I, and I think it's also important to remember your friendships change or end, because really all your relationships change or end because they're supposed to, because they've gotten to the point where one side is not bringing or providing enough value for the other side. And then sometimes you can reconnect, you can have a breakup or a friend breakup where you go apart, and that doesn't mean that you're never going to talk to that person again or you may never have a friendship or a relationship with that person again, but it's just like that relationship as it currently existed, yeah, ran its course and it had to end because there were new things for you to spend your time and your attention and your effort on.
Dan:Right, yeah, and yeah, the value that you are just most of in mind. It's not that you aren't bringing value, it's just maybe that value isn't as useful or what that person needs at that time.
Charles:So it'll be the kind of value that they're looking for Exactly. Yeah, there's they're looking to. Whether consciously or unconsciously, they're looking to grow in a new direction. That doesn't make sense for them to be your friend right now.
Dan:Yeah, I mean it happened when we graduated college. A lot of our friends that were in serious relationships, they wanted to move on, get married, have kids right away, and a lot of other, a lot of our other friends. We didn't want to do that, and so they, of course, weren't around to hang out as much anymore. Those friendships went away for the most part.
Charles:Yeah, it's normal, yeah, and I would say, if that is a source of stress or negative feelings, look, I don't think anybody's meant to not have any friends, but you're also not meant to constantly ruminate and be in a constant state of grieving because friendships go away. And that's part of what she says in this chapter is learning the context of, yeah, your friends are not like. Not every friend is going to be a lifelong friend. I mean, I don't have any light, I don't have any. I'm not friends with anybody now that I was friends with in elementary school.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And I spend no time thinking about that or being sad about it. It's just the way that it goes. Yeah, and so if you're constantly ruminating over friendships that ended or you don't have enough friends, that's when you start. You should start doing some self-analysis. What is it that? If I had what I think that I want, how would my life be different? And then, okay, well, what is the thing that I really because I mean what most of us are not looking for is I need to have a dozen close friends that I go out to dinner with every weekend.
Charles:To some people, that might sound really appealing, like, oh, I've got this Friday night dinner group and we go out every Friday for dinner. For me, I'd be like, no, I'm not going to. That would get in the way of me having the life I want to have. Right, the obligation of every Friday night, my, my week, my, my Friday nights are already planned for me because we get on the group text and we figure out where we're going to go and we go there every, and we go to this, we go try a new restaurant together every Friday. It's like, yeah, but what if I want to do something else on Friday? What if I want to travel for six weeks and I'm going to be gone for six, right Like I get that. That might appeal to some people, that would not appeal to me, and okay. Well, so what about that appeals to you? What's the real thing that appeals to you about that and how could you get that another way? You don't currently have it, I would say.
Charles:She seems, I mean the fact that she wrote three chapters on adult friendship means she thinks about friendship a lot more than I do, and she's her state seems to be swayed, positively or negatively, a lot more by her adult friendships than mine would be. I'm not saying that's wrong. What I'm saying is the way she talks about it is weird, at least to me. And so, yeah, I you can. I think it's important to have friends as an adult. I think it's important to recognize that the friendships as an adult will be different than the friendships you made as a kid.
Charles:But, yeah, the the impact that not having your friendships go the way that you want them to go, or that you think you want them to go the way she talks about it, and I imagine there are people that probably have read this book and really identify like I felt the same thing that mel's felt, but that's not me and so it's hard for me to. I would encourage people to just focus on the positive things in your life and the way you like spending your time and engage in activities that you enjoy, that have a social component, and you can, like me, just not really focus on the friendship building aspect and just kind of let it happen. But you know, I guess if you're a super extrovert and you don't like spending time alone and stuff, then maybe that's not good enough for you. I don't know. Yeah, but I mean, you're not really spending a lot of time in deliberate friendship building, are you?
Dan:No.
Charles:And do you know anybody in either our separate or overlapping friendship circles that you that has talked about friendship in the way that she does? No, yeah, neither do.
Dan:I no, but maybe that's because of you track the kind of people that you are to you and that's just not the kind of people we know or we surround ourselves with Right.
Charles:Yeah, I've never found myself either being alone at home or like as being alone at home, either wishing oh, I wish I had somebody I could call to hang out with, or I wish I had somebody I could call to talk about my problems. That's not a place I spend my time. And if it is a place you spend your time, it's like, yeah, I guess I could see why. If you're spending time thinking, oh, I wish there was somebody in my life that could meet whatever this need is, then yeah, I get why you would feel that way, but that, yeah, that doesn't occur to me the time I'm alone is usually time that I find peaceful and enjoyable.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And the time I'm with my friends is also time that I find peaceful and enjoyable, and if either of those times are the time you're spending with your friends or your partner, or alone, if you're not getting peace and enjoyment out of those times, then it's time to start asking some difficult questions and seeing what you might need to change up in your life.
Charles:So anyway, that's the way I see it. I think if, yeah, if you're dissatisfied with your friendships, then maybe there's some resources in chapters 11, 12, and 13 that could help you come up with some ideas. But I would say, another approach to take that she doesn't talk about is ask yourself what could I do or change so that my, the status of my friendships is not a source of pain for me, like, what could you change about your life or about yourself that you wouldn't be looking to your adult friendships as this source of lack or source of need?
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Because I, my friendships, complement my life. They don't define it and when they go away, they don't destroy it. They're just icing on the cake, so to speak. Yeah, that's a good, good analogy. So, anyway, that's the way I feel about these chapters In the next ones we're going to talk about. The very next one is something about how you, when you want somebody to change, and how you deal with that, and what the negative, unintended consequences are of living a life where you're thinking to yourself boy, I wish they would change.
Dan:And yeah, and trying to get them to change, even in loving ways, what the negative side effects of that are.
Charles:Yeah, I'll be interested to see how her approach might differ from BJ Fogg's approach, because he does have a chapter or two in Tiny Habits about how you can get other people to change what they're doing and I wonder if him and her will be in agreement or if they'll have a different philosophy to getting people. So I'll probably have to revisit tiny habits a little bit before we talk about it, because I remember when we went through that book thinking some of this sounds pretty good, some of it sounds a little manipulative.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And so I'll be curious to see how I, if I feel, if I like her methodology better than his. So we'll see. All right, thanks, dan. We'll stop there, be curious to see how I, if I feel, if I like her methodology better than his. So we'll see.
Charles:All right, thanks, dan, we'll stop there and I'll talk to you next time, see ya, hey, thanks for sticking with us for the whole episode, dan, and I certainly appreciate it. Again, you can check out mindfullymasculinecom for all of our episodes, audio and video files, as well as anything else we feel like sharing, and next week we'll be back with another episode about trying to get the people around you to change Whether you should do it, how you should do it, etc. Thanks, and we'll talk to you then.
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