The Let Them Theory: Clarity, Commitment, and Closure

In this final episode of our Let Them Theory series, we dig into the last three chapters of Mel Robbins’ book—and we don’t hold back.

We talk about why the honeymoon phase blinds us to red flags, how to tell if someone is truly compatible (hint: if you’re confused, they’re not), and why waiting for a partner to change is wasted time. We also break down the “commitment conversation” that keeps us on equal footing instead of begging for validation, plus the hard truths about breakups—no shortcuts, just growth.

From recognizing unhealthy relationship patterns to using a breakup as fuel for self-improvement, this conversation is packed with practical tools for dating, commitment, and letting go.

🔑 What you’ll learn in this episode:

• Why “but” and “maybe” are red flags in relationships
• How to ask for commitment without losing your power
• Why most people won’t change—and what that means for you
• How to handle breakups without making them worse
• Why your motivation (even revenge) can still lead to positive change

🎧 Whether you’re dating, rebuilding after heartbreak, or just working on yourself, this is the episode that ties it all together.

Catch all of our audio and video episodes at mindfullymasculine.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Let Them Theory
• 4:25 Dating to Find Yourself
• 9:52 Seeing Patterns in Relationships
• 16:15 The Commitment Conversation
• 25:31 Breaking Up and Moving Forward
• 32:30 Post-Breakup Growth Strategies

Transcript

Dan: 0:00

The version of that person that they are now. That's like the best, that's, that's where the best, that's as good as it can get Right. So over time it can only get worse, Are you? Are you totally happy and thrilled now? But if there's any like cracks in that, like pay, attention, pay attention.

Charles: 0:15

You're thinking, you know, boy, he or she is great, but I, I just wish they were, you know, more committed to their health, more committed to their career development, that they were a little bit more, you know, easygoing and good humored when I make a joke. I wish they were a little bit. Maybe down the road they'll get a little bit more of the thing I want. No, they will either stay the same or get what you perceive to be worse.

Dan: 0:37

If you start using that as soon as the words, but or maybe as you're starting to describe your relationship with another person, that's probably a good indication that you need to reevaluate.

Charles: 0:46

Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Today, we are closing out our series on the Let them Theory by Mel Robbins with the final three chapters. These chapters focus on relationships, romantic ones in particular. We'll talk about how to let people show you who they are, how to have the commitment conversation without losing your footing, and how to handle breakups in a way that leads to growth instead of more pain. It's a powerful way to wrap up this book, and we'll be pulling out the lessons that matter most for men who want to build healthier, more intentional connections. If you'd like to catch all of our audio and video episodes, check us out at mindfullymasculinecom. Thanks for listening and enjoy the episode. Good morning, charles.

Dan: 1:26

Hello again, Dan. How are you? I'm well. How's our equipment doing?

Charles: 1:30

It's fine when I don't kick the power plug in. All right, so we're covering the last three chapters of the Let them Theory 18, 19, and 20. And this focuses on relationships and how to navigate those particularly romantic relationships. So we're going to get into chapter 18 let them show you who they are. Chapter 19, how to take your relationship to the next level, and chapter 20, how every ending is a beautiful beginning, which I find that title somewhat cliche and annoying.

Dan: 2:01

But for the last chapter of the book.

Charles: 2:03

I feel like I've got to move some books yeah, some way and cute. So let's start with chapter 18. Let them show you who they are. This one, she, she builds on some stuff from the last couple of chapters, which is don't try to fix people, don't try to change people, certainly don't try to get into a romantic partnership with someone based on the assumption of you know they just need a little bit of tweak and I can adjust them to be the partner I need them to be.

Dan: 2:26

Yeah, I liked one of her quotes, which was a purpose of dating isn't to find the one, it's to find yourself.

Charles: 2:32

Yeah, I like that too. And, um, really understanding what it is that you need and how you love, and, yeah, that that is the that should be the goal, and seeing how you know who you want to be and who you really are is reflected in your relationship with another person.

Dan: 2:49

Yeah, I feel like I ended up in that state where I figured out over way too much time trying to find the one I ended up finding myself. But if I had gone in with that mindset of I'm trying to figure out what I want, it would have made things a lot easier and I would have put a lot less pressure on myself to stick out relationships longer than I should have or not expressed my needs, wants and boundaries Right A lot of stuff that Glover talks about and he helped me finally get to that point where I realized, hey, I need to figure out what I want in order for me to even stand a chance of finding out somebody who's going to be compatible with me.

Charles: 3:27

Yeah, there's a quote by, I think it was Mark Manson that said the only universal, effective dating advice is self-improvement.

Charles: 3:35

And so you know, I've.

Charles: 3:36

I've got a, a friend who's in a relationship that she's not satisfied with and is she knows she's kind of spinning her heels in this relationship and trying to figure out, you know, how to get out of it and how to feel like she can get out of it.

Charles: 3:50

And my advice to her for a long time, and whenever she asks for advice, I'll always give her the same advice, which is get healthier and healthier to the point where the negative aspects of this relationship are no longer attractive to you, or this person's no longer attractive to you. And the only way you can change that is by getting healthier and healthier and and replacing bad, unhealthy patterns with good, healthy patterns, to the point where you're like, okay, this, this guy, he doesn't fit into who I am now, yeah, and then you'll naturally transition out of the relationship, but trying to dig your heels in and say, okay, now I'm ready for a breakup this time. And if you're not ready, if your nervous system still wants all the unhealthy things that you know you and your partner are creating this relationship, then the breakup's not going to hold, or you'll replace it with somebody else with the same problems.

Dan: 4:38

I think one of the challenges a lot of us run into is that the negative consequences of that relationship don't feel worse or worse than taking on the uncomfortable challenges to improve yourself. Right, I think you're still getting enough of those little bits of dopamine, those that good times with them, even though it's not what you want in the end. It's a lot easier to swallow that than it is to really like. Look at yourself and want to make difficult changes or potentially what we think are difficult changes, and I think we need to kind of reframe that and go hey, it doesn't need to be difficult.

Dan: 5:13

It could just be you going in and doing a hobby somewhere or meeting a bunch of people doing the same thing that you're interested in, instead of going out with this dude on a Friday night, instead of going out with this dude, you know, on a Friday night, right, but there's a chance that you might have a good time with him and you're remembering all those things in the past that happened where you had that one amazing night. You're hoping that might happen again, but meanwhile you just you kind of like you mentioned in the last time we were talking about you're kind of wasting your time with somebody who's not the right fit, and there's an opportunity cost, because now you're not out there able to meet the person who's a better fit yeah, one thing to also keep in mind is that sometimes, you know, it's very hard for us, when we're in the middle of a relationship, to do the good times versus bad times math, like okay, well, for last you know month, the bad times have outweighed the good times.

Charles: 6:03

therefore, therefore, I will just end the relationship. It's like, wish it was that easy. Yeah, it's not, because the other things about the relationship that your nervous system may have grown to crave whether that's the familiarity, the chaos, the ups and downs, the emotional highs and lows, those kind of override the simple math of good times versus bad times. And sometimes this whole chapter is all about patterns, where it's like you get into these patterns and you should be able to recognize the patterns and trust the patterns, because the only way to really have a good idea of what the future will hold is to look at the patterns of the past right and, as you mentioned before on the conversation, that we didn't record which is really, which was which was.

Dan: 6:43

It's like a drug, it's a pattern. It's not just a behavior pattern. There's a physical pattern that we engage in and that becomes tied to our bodies and our nervous system so that we really are addicted to operating in this way, or very used to operating in this way. So that adds a whole nother layer of challenge when it comes time to trying to break those patterns. It's not just a oh yeah I, you know, I did a pros and cons list and it's easy for me to go All right, yeah, no, no problem, we're going to start changing something. Yeah, it's just.

Dan: 7:16

It's a lot more than just your brain going I should be doing this. It's wow, yeah, you have to like literally change the way you feel, and that's sometimes extremely difficult when, when you've had such highs as you mentioned too is in that honeymoon period a lot of times, we're establishing really amazing new experiences. You've got your best foot forward, even going to the same restaurant you've been to a million times. You're going to that new rest, that rest, that same restaurant, with somebody who's new Right. Million times. You're going to that new rest, that rest, that same restaurant with somebody's new that's going to build additional. You know physical, like neuropathways and feelings of good feelings and our brain, when we feel good, we want to repeat that. We get cravings to repeat that same thing.

Charles: 7:55

Let's do that again, over and over and over again, and even if it's not happening, we're thinking, oh, there might be a chance we can get back there, yes, right, yes, and us, you know, depending on what else is going on in the mix of brain chemistry that makes you you, when you have challenges with things like adhd, insecure attachment, I mean all these things kind of factor into and how you. You use that honeymoon period to build a benchmark of what relationships should be, and a lot of us, myself included, have difficulty making the move from that honeymoon period to just the day in, day out of. This is what I'm like, this is what this other person is like, and are the non-hormone-fueled, manic versions of us people that can enjoy a healthy relationship together.

Dan: 8:44

Yeah, and I know a lot of times we'll make excuses as to why they're behaving this way now and not the way they were in the honeymoon period, like, well, this person just got a new, this other person they just got a new job, so they're a little bit more stressed, or they just had this huge thing happen in their life, and so you know they're not sleeping as well, so they're a little crankier. And before we know it, it's. This is just the way they operate, and and there's always going to be something that comes up in life that's going to be stressful. How do they handle that stress Right? And? And so there's always going to be something.

Charles: 9:16

That's why it's a good idea not to, you know, make any big decisions and big commitments during that honeymoon phase, because you know people are at the beginning of the relationship, people are going to be as engaged, exciting, attractive as they're ever going to be.

Charles: 9:33

I mean attractive simply as a function of time, right? I mean, the clock's not running backwards for some of us and forwards for others, it's running forwards for all of us. And so you know if, and that's why even the most valuable time to be on the lookout for those red flags is in the time where you're least likely to be on the lookout for the red flags during that honeymoon phase. Because you know if, if there are, if there are patterns and behaviors that you're seeing during the honeymoon phase that you're like I'm a little uncomfortable, maybe he or she will get that together, you know, so that we can be together forever. It's like no, this, this is. It's like when, when the sales guy won't return your call in the pre sales cycle yeah, they're. They're certainly not going to get better at returning your call after you've, after you bought the product.

Dan: 10:17

Right yeah.

Charles: 10:18

They're going to get worse.

Dan: 10:19

Absolutely. I mean, um, so quick, quick example here I brought my car to a new repair place this last week and just for like an oil change and like the middle console button wasn't working and I was like, hey, can you just take a look at that? I didn't know anything about this mechanic. It got good ratings on Google they that actually engages the button on the middle console as well as the trunk. I was rummaging around in the glove box before that and realized after the fact that I had engaged this valet switch and it basically stopped it from opening. As soon as I clicked the valet switch, boom, it opened, no problem.

Dan: 11:00

So either I left the review, I was just like either they don't know, right, they don't know the craft, or they were trying to take advantage of me. But the point is I'm never going to go back there again, right? So that's the thing. It's like I've had those first dates where they've done the basically the same thing, where they've made like they made a crappy comment about a fat person one time and I was just like, oh you know, they were just kind of joking around, but at the time I was just like.

Dan: 11:24

I was like I was a little uncomfortable. I'm like I can't tell if they're fully joking or they're actually like serious. You know it was just like, oh, look at that fat. And I was just like, oh, my God, like at the time. But then everything else was was, you know, really good, and I kind of let that go. I was attracted and everything. Looking back, I could have saved myself like two, three years of a relationship if I had listened and objectively evaluated the situation of reality at that time and all the hormones and everything else. You know I wasn't paying, you know didn't could see through all of that.

Charles: 11:56

That's interesting. That brings in another quote from the chapter that I think we can use in a couple ways the idea of if they're into you, you'll know, and if they're not, you'll be confused. I would also say if they into you, you'll know, and if they're not, you'll be confused. I would also say if they're compatible, you'll know, and if they're not compatible, you'll be having a lot of conversations with yourself why they might be compatible.

Dan: 12:14

That's a great way to extrapolate that. A hundred percent, absolutely. That's even more important to realize as you're going on dates is, yeah, if you need to work to figure out whether they're compatible or not In your own head, in your own head, they're having conversations with yourself or with a friend or anybody else, and you're asking questions versus going in like, oh my God, I can't believe how compatible we are. Right, I mean, that's still no guarantee at that point, right?

Charles: 12:38

Right.

Dan: 12:39

That's. That's a great way of looking at it.

Charles: 12:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially look for the way that people talk about and treat other people Like. If they're making cracks about somebody being overweight, if they're being rude to servers, if they're showing you those things, then if it's something you don't know because you don't care and it's not a problem for you and you're the same way, then you can both be pieces of shit together. Yeah. But if you're a person where it's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe she talked that way to the valet that we were giving the car keys to. She's not only talking that way to that one valet.

Dan: 13:12

Correct. And another way to look at it is if you were on a date with this person and you overheard the couple next to you, one of those people, say something like that, how would you feel about that?

Charles: 13:21

Right, I want to be the girl I'm sitting across. I want to be. I wanted to be someone that I could share a glance with and be like god. You can get a load of those people. And she's like can you? I can't believe what I just heard. You don't want to be sitting across from the person that's saying those things. So the couple next to you is bonding over how terrible she is right, yeah, exactly.

Dan: 13:40

and looking back, it's just like, oh my god, you blind mother, like I can't believe you just didn't you just swept that under the rug, exactly. Oh my God, yeah, because she was pretty or exciting, or I hadn't had a date in God knows how long at that point. Right, right, yeah. So I'm letting it all go, right.

Charles: 13:58

Yeah. So I felt that this chapter 18 was mostly targeted and tell me if you disagree mostly targeted to women who are in relationships that they're not feeling satisfied with, and which is okay, you know, mel, mel gets to pick whatever audience for whatever section of the book she feels like it, but I did feel it. May be, you know, that's, maybe guys have had the same experience and other guys would read this book and feel like, oh, I feel like she's talking to me. I didn't feel like that because, yeah, typically I think in our society, you know, men can often be the kind of gatekeepers on commitment, and so most of the time that somebody is complaining that somebody is not as committed as they would like or not as invested, it's usually at least in heterosexual relationships it's usually the woman complaining about the man. I think that's a function of both biology and culture, and so I did feel like the main thrust or the main benefit of this chapter would be like hey, ladies, if you're in this relationship and he's not giving you what you want or what you need in the way of commitment or investment or whatever, here are some of the things you can do about that that are within your control, like here's how you can recognize what's not in your control from what is in your control. And once you recognize what is in your control, here's how you can act in a way to find out if this is going to work or not.

Charles: 15:19

100%, and a big part of that was the Matthew Hussey conversation about when you want a commitment at a level that you don't currently have. Here's how you sit your partner down and ask for it. Yeah, and I like the idea of keeping it you focused of you know. Here's how I feel. Here's what I want. Here are the things I value. Now the ball's in your court. Are you on board with this or do I need to keep looking? Essentially not in an ultimatum way, but just as a these? These are the values that I based my dating life around, and I need somebody that is on the same page with those values and your.

Dan: 15:56

The actions you take in committing to me, are going to determine whether you've got a place in my dating life or not yeah, and and she mentions this I think the real most, the most important part is going into this conversation with the proper intention. It's not to get what you want. It's not to express disappointment in the fact that you're not getting what you want. It's to seek clarification.

Charles: 16:17

It can't be the number one. Attaining them is not the number one goal of this conversation. Attaining clarity is the number one goal of the conversation.

Dan: 16:24

I feel like, if we do, you know, if you're trying to attain them you'll say what you have subconsciously Right.

Dan: 16:31

You're going to try to make them feel guilty. You might get more upset than than than you need to be, and that might indirectly make them feel guilty, and then they could be giving you an inaccurate response because they don't want you to feel bad. Part of that was, hey, I really enjoyed what we've had, you know. But at this point I know myself, I want a commitment and I only want to invest my time and energy in somebody who's looking for the same thing, and if you don't, that's totally fine. But I just want to let you know that's that's where I'm at.

Charles: 16:59

I'm at my decision point.

Dan: 17:00

Right and you're just really looking for information. I mean, think about it. You're, you know, you're going on Google, you're asking chat, gpt. I just need some clarification here. Try to go in with without as you're trying to express emotions, because then you don't, you don't want to. You want to find out reality is from that other person and you want to make it as easy as possible for the other person to feel like they can give you that truth without feeling like there's going to be consequences if they don't give you what you want.

Charles: 17:28

Yeah, here's the thing I took away from that conversation there's always going to be a dynamic interrelationship of power, of attraction, of status. I mean your relationship shouldn't be all about those things, but they are going to be present. And when I go to you and say I want a commitment from you, I want you know, it's very easy to kind of. The result of that could be putting one person on a pedestal and bringing yourself down here Like I'm down here begging you to be with me and commit to me. Will you please do it?

Dan: 17:57

That's one way.

Charles: 17:59

Where I mean, I think that's the default. Whenever one person initiates the, let's start saying I want a commitment conversation. It is kind of I'm down here, you're up here, I'm asking you to give me something that I need, following the model that she describes in this chapter that Matthew Hussey's girlfriend came to him with. It takes that and puts you both on the exact same level, which is why it's so valuable and so effective.

Dan: 18:23

Right and, as you said, yeah, because you're saying you're using I. So it's like I value my time and energy and at this point, if I'm going to continue to invest in it, in this relationship, I want to do that with somebody who's on the same page, and I think that is really kind of what brings you up to that same level, because you're not saying I'm incomplete without you, I need this. It's it's not a need anymore, it's a, it's a want. At this point, right, and it might be a need in terms of this is you're now saying you know this. It's a need in that, if I'm going to continue to give my time and energy.

Charles: 18:57

This is what it's value, if that works for me, and whether or not you participate in that life is going to be you to answer. You know how how we resolve this conversation, and and again because you know some of it could be how how we resolve this conversation, and and again because you know some of it could be if, if you go into this conversation the way many of us often do, where you're down here and they're up here on this pedestal and you're asking them to give you something that you need from them, the very nature of that conversation makes the other person think, oh, if they're, if they're coming to me asking like this, maybe, maybe I'm too special to say yes to a commitment with them.

Dan: 19:27

Could be yeah.

Charles: 19:28

And so, yeah, I I think it's one of the most essential takeaways from this book is is framing that commitment conversation in a way where you're going into it as an equal party, saying enjoy you, I appreciate you, but what I require is this kind of clarity in my relationships, and now it's your turn to say where you think you fit into that.

Dan: 19:50

Yeah, I think that kind of rolls up into a lot of what I'm taking out of this book, which is the let me part is the part where you learn to value yourself right. So it's the let them, so you can actually let go of that emotional attachment to the situation. The let me, then, is I'm taking power, I'm taking control, I'm making a decision, and by doing that, you are saying that you are valuable enough to make those decisions. You're valuable enough, yeah.

Charles: 20:19

Yeah.

Dan: 20:19

Basically make those decisions.

Charles: 20:21

Yeah, you have to. Yeah, a life that works for you has to be the priority over and above any one other person, you know, and so if you find yourself in a situation where, hey, this isn't working for me, then you know you owe it to yourself to get yourself out of that situation. Yeah, because you know, if you're like most of us, if you're practicing monogamy and you want to have one partner that you're dedicated to and is dedicated to you, every day you spend with the wrong partner is a day that you're not spending with the right partner and not, not.

Charles: 20:51

There's a you know a one person out there that, but yeah, any. Any time you're spending with somebody that doesn't match your values is a time right. You're robbing yourself of someone who does and as, as you said, is you.

Dan: 21:05

You know, by expressing what your needs are, you're not just doing yourself a favor, you're doing the other person a favor too.

Dan: 21:12

Right, because if you then go into this relationship because you guilted that person into going, oh well, you know, because you came upset and you're like I need you to commit to me.

Dan: 21:23

And then I'm and I've been on the other end of that and I'm like, okay, yeah, let's do this because there's a little bit of good there and I don't want her to be upset. But the bottom line is I knew that person was wrong for me and I shouldn't have done that. But if you go into the conversation and you say, or you continue in the relationship where you aren't a hundred percent getting you in return what you are investing in, you're going to get resentful. Then you're not going to bring your best self and you're going to sabotage your own relationship that the one that you thought you wanted, because you were too scared to actually have that conversation at the beginning and go this is where my standards are and I need someone to match that. So don't go in there and trying to manipulate someone into getting what you want, cause you're not going to be happy in the end.

Charles: 22:03

Anyway're doing yourself a disservice. You get, you get a yeah if you, if you guilt or manipulate somebody into a commitment they don't want to make, then you're getting the version of them that you don't want to have or you've got this underlying weird arrogance that you think you can change them right, like, oh, they're not exactly what I want, but we'll figure it out, I'll.

Dan: 22:21

I'll figure out how to change them, like in a weird way. That's awfully arrogant, don't you think?

Charles: 22:26

yeah, it certainly is. And uh, yeah, and that's. That's one of the things that insecurely attached, codependent people certainly struggle with is, you know, I, I need to justify their presence in my life, even though they're not right for me. So I'll, I'll believe, if I just, you know, bear down and white knuckle it hard enough, I'll be able to turn them into what, what they need to be for me.

Dan: 22:49

Right, yeah, yeah.

Charles: 22:50

Not never heard of it working?

Dan: 22:52

Yeah, well, I mean you, you've told me a few times you know the you should, you should the version of that person that they are now. That's like the best. That's. That's where the that's as good as it can get Right. So over time it can only get worse. Are you? Are you totally happy and thrilled now? But if there's any like cracks in that, like pay attention pay attention.

Charles: 23:15

You're thinking, you know, boy, he or she is great, but I I just wish they were, you know, more committed to their health, more committed to their career development, that they were a little bit more, you know, easygoing and good humored when I make a joke. I wish they were a little bit. Maybe down the road they'll get a little bit more of the thing I want. No, they will either stay the same or get what you perceive to be worse.

Dan: 23:37

If you start using that as soon as the words, but or maybe as you're starting to describe your relationship with another person, that's probably a good indication that you need to reevaluate Breakups.

Charles: 23:47

Best case scenario it's mostly mutual and it still sucks and it still hurts and it's still going to be a rough thing for you to go through. In a worst case scenario, you get what you believe to be blindsided by someone you want to be with who doesn't want to be with you anymore and, in either case, the feelings that you're experiencing experiencing there are no shortcuts to make it better. There are only shortcuts to make it worse.

Charles: 24:09

Right, right yeah where the the only thing that any any shortcuts you try to take to get through the pain of the heartbreak is usually just going to result in it hurting worse and longer yeah, I mean she mentions what 30 days no contact, and I know, uh, some of the other books have said what like 90 days no contact, or no contact at all ever part of it depends on what you want.

Charles: 24:31

If, if you're looking to get back together with the person, then, um, some people will say 30 or 90 days of no contact and and then you write them a letter, blah, blah, blah. And I I think the good advice is very clear on that If someone breaks up with you and you want to get back together with them, you never contact them again. I mean, after you know you have settled out the logistics of the breakup, you know you've gotten your stuff, they've gotten their stuff. If you've done anything like really dramatically inappropriate that you need to apologize for, then you apologize for it, but then the dumper never hears from you ever again for the rest of your life. If they reach out to you, you can choose to respond to them. Yeah, if your goal is to recover from the breakup and possibly get back together with them, you go into no contact as soon as is logically feasible and you just never reach out to you, never initiate conversation with them again so that sounds like accepting reality, correct?

Charles: 25:28

on reality's terms. On reality's terms, yes, oh, I like. And so yeah, the if, if you're willing to stay broken up with them and realize that the breakup was for the best, then yes, it's possible down the road you could have a friendship with them. But honestly, I mean I would tread carefully with that, because having a lot of ongoing friendships with exes is going to introduce complication to your new relationships. And so you've got to, you got to really weigh that to say, oh, is my friendship with this ex, you know barring? You have a business together, you have kids together, you have pets together, you know stuff like that. You have to deal with those situations as they exist, without any of those kind of complicating factors. A guy who's got, or a gal who's got, a string of ex-partners and ex-lovers that they're just friends with, that is going to seem like a red flag to the new person that you might be interested in.

Dan: 26:21

Yeah, 100%. And.

Charles: 26:21

I think that's reasonable. I mean I would, if somebody had a lot of close friendships, or even a close friendship with somebody that they were previously romantically involved with, even though they didn't have a business together, kids together, my attitude would be like, okay, I, you might not be the person for me, then if you're, if you're still dedicated to this ongoing friendship, no-transcript, just kind of have to, and I mean that could even be something that you go into it with, like, hey, I'd like to reestablish a friendship with you, but just so you know that friendship is going to have to go on hiatus if I get another romantic interest, because I don't think it would be fair to that new partner for me to still be contacting you.

Dan: 27:30

Yeah, and it's funny because you know we hear these stories about most of the time we understand oh yeah, it's not good if they're really good friends with a lot of their exes. We understand that. But as she talks about is, we always think we're the exception to the rule, so this is going to be different. It doesn't. That doesn't really apply to us, because they clearly can handle their exes differently. Or, yeah, this warning label it doesn't apply to me and I think we fall into that trap when it comes to relationships here too.

Charles: 27:57

Yeah, I would say the sweet spot is going to be you want somebody that is willing to speak about their past relationships and their former partners in a way that is, you know, oh, she was crazy, she was insane, she was a bad person. I mean that's, that's a huge red flag, and I've I've told younger guys like never, never, talk negatively about your former partners, because that says as much or more about how bad of a person you are than it does about her.

Dan: 28:26

Yeah, I think it's important to recognize and try to identify your role in those relationships too. You don't need to speak at length about you know what a terrible person you think you are. You know in that last relationship. But I think balancing it out and realize it takes two to tango in that relationship and their decisions that you made that probably led to the problems that you had. So take some responsibility and ownership of your you know of you in that relationship. It doesn't mean it all falls on you either. But at the same time, if you're saying this person was crazy, that person was crazy, that person's crazy, what's the common denominator?

Charles: 29:00

here Exactly, and so yeah, common denominator exactly, and so yeah, you can. You can also assume that, however somebody is speaking about their ex, that's going to be exactly how they speak about you when your relationship is over too or they could be thinking hey, is he thinking that I'm crazy?

Dan: 29:15

right now, even before the relationship is over, you could be sabotaging your existing relationship because now you've put those thoughts into the person's mind, so even those that haven't happened. Wait a second. This guy's dated four crazy women in a row. He's dating me right like I'm crazy, exactly, or, and or they might even question themselves is this crazy what I'm doing now? Now they start questioning themselves. Now they're not going to bring their best self to the relationship because they're always feeling like they're scrutinizing themselves even more so yeah, so I, I would say, look for partners that are not still enmeshed with their former partners, but also not just constantly talking crap about their former partners either.

Charles: 29:52

Find somebody that's in the middle of those, and I think that maximizes your your potential for success.

Dan: 29:57

So I don't know what your experience has been like on dates and getting to know people. Have you run into a lot of people who want to constantly talk about their exes and their previous relationships and things like that? I feel like, and it's like early on in the dates, I feel like that can be dangerous, dangerous waters to be treading in.

Charles: 30:16

I mean, usually that only happens when there's some unresolved feelings about the person or the breakup. Yeah, yeah, if somebody is, if somebody is preoccupied with the, the negatives or the traumas of their last relationship to the point where they're bringing them up fairly frequently with a new partner, then that probably means that they've got some work they have to do yeah and you know one of the things you know when it comes to moving past a negative or challenging relationship, whether that's one you had with your parents or with a former partner or whatever.

Charles: 30:48

It's like having a cohesive narrative in your own head about understanding. You know what led to the relationship, why the relationship was negative, what happened, why it happened. That seems to be a big part of being able to move on past it.

Charles: 31:01

And so if you still, if you haven't, or your partner hasn't figured out why the relationship, you know what the good and bad parts of it were, why it succeeded, why it failed, why you felt traumatized by it. If that's not something that a person can express to themselves and I would say, at least one other person, whether that's a sponsor and recovery group or a therapist or, you know, even a best friend and confidant if you can't express here's, here's why I got into the relationship, here's what when, here's what was good at the beginning, here's what went wrong, here's why I still have unresolved feelings. If that's not a story you're ready to tell, you might not be ready to be in another relationship yet.

Dan: 31:37

Yeah, that's. That's a great litmus test for sure. Yeah, yeah um.

Dan: 31:41

So, speaking more about the uh, the breakups, some of the practical steps you can take post-breakup is environmental changes remove reminders, pictures, things that they gave you, or home improvement choices and style choices that they yeah, she even mentions maybe even just changing up your furniture in your bedroom, because the chances are you spent a lot of time in there, yeah, and so you just might need to change what that looks. You know that looks like. So you can really separate your brain and get yourself physically, your nervous system physically, so you feel like you're in a new time period, yeah yeah.

Charles: 32:14

The other thing is build support systems, reach out and, you know, sort of rekindle some of those friendships that maybe got neglected during your relationship activities, hobbies, groups of people that you would associate with. Try to dive back into those things if you can. One of the things I'll disagree with her on is she said to avoid any breakup diets or breakup exercise regimes in an effort to get them back or to make them feel sorry for losing out on the better version of you. No, I say embrace both of those and I would say, don't adopt some kind of a crash diet. That's not going to be effective for you in the long run. That's silly under any circumstance. But if the current motivation is I want to get in better shape to get them back, or I want to get in better shape to make them regret losing me, I don't care what your motivation is.

Dan: 33:03

Sometimes that's what you do. Yeah, absolutely To get over that hump.

Charles: 33:06

Yeah, post-breakup is a great time to take on a big project like that, and if you form the behavior and the habits and the patterns of being somebody that eats better and works out more, I really don't care what your motivation is. Yeah, go ahead and do that and make it work for you, and then the hope is down the road you'll keep it going, even if, after 11 weeks or a year or whatever, your motivation changes. You've got the habits and the patterns in place and you can just maintain those.

Dan: 33:35

Yeah, I mean, it really starts with our physical bodies and our physical state in terms of the experience that we bring and get out of the world. And so if you can improve that by dropping a few pounds or getting into some healthier habits, then you're going to start to open up other other opportunity, your brain's going to start to function better. You're going to attract other kinds of people to you. So I agree, sometimes we need to focus on whether that's intrinsic motivation of you know, do something that's positive, then use it. Don't hold on to that and let that be the only way that you can get stuff done. But sometimes more difficult things, those obstacles you want to overcome, they're difficult. You need that fire.

Charles: 34:33

Yeah, and I mean I think of other things If you decide, okay, I'm going to volunteer with the dog shelter or Habitat Human, just so she sees me being a great guy.

Charles: 34:45

It's like the people whose houses are getting built or the dogs are going for a walk. They don't care what your motivation is, they're they're benefiting from it anyway. So I say you know, if, if that is, if those thoughts that society say aren't okay, so you doing things that are good for yourself and good for other people, then go ahead and do them. You know, I don't care if the guy who's volunteering at the animal shelter is just doing it so that his ex will feel sorry that she dumped him. Right, I care that the dogs and cats are benefiting from, you know, clean places and going for walks and stuff like that. So do these things that benefit yourself and other people, for whatever motivation, and then hopefully, if you're doing the other things right, post breakup, the negative motivations will fall to the wayside and you'll keep positively affecting yourself and the world around you, yeah, and you're going to be exposing yourself to multiple positive experiences.

Dan: 35:37

Yes, initially, that that motivation might be not ideal, not might might not be that perfect world. You know that that altruistic? Yeah right, which is horseshit anyway.

Dan: 35:48

So you know, I don't believe altruism actually exists, so you're doing it to feel good, we're on the same page about so the thing is, you're going to surprise yourself because you'll be like, oh my god, now you might adopt a dog because you spent this amazing afternoon with them and now, like your, your world's lit up because you've got a dog to come home to all the time, right, and so there's going to be and you gave you know a stray a new home. So, exactly, yeah, there's. There's so many more beneficial outcomes and there's really, I mean, I don't even understand what the negative consequences would be, even if you had a motivation from a not socially acceptable position. Right, I, I tend to like I'm struggling to figure it out. I mean, there might be somewhere around.

Charles: 36:31

She doesn't hit the example of volunteering she, she just focuses on diet and exercise Again. I think it applies Like if, if, whatever your motivation is for diet and exercise, again, as long as you're choosing healthy and effective maybe and maybe she didn't talk about that that it would you know if you do it in a healthy way.

Dan: 36:46

Maybe she's talking about crash diets. That's the only thing I could think of would be. It might make you do things.

Charles: 36:51

In a way, the idea of, don't do it for them, do it for you and it's like well, if doing it for them is what strikes a chord with you right now, post breakup, right, and do it for them, yeah, as long as you're doing it. I mean because you know there's no way that every second you're in the gym lifting heavy weights, you're going to only be thinking about them.

Charles: 37:09

It's not going to be very short-lived, and your muscle fibers don't care who you're thinking about when you're in the gym. They just care that you're in there moving heavy weights.

Dan: 37:16

Same thing with your cholesterol level and everything else right your body fat.

Charles: 37:19

None of that cares about what your motivation is. All your body is going to be like oh, we're moving, we're releasing some endorphins, we're experiencing some serotonin and we're getting healthier and not breathing as hard when we put our socks on. So, yeah, I would say leverage whatever motivation comes your way. But yeah, like you said, there is no altruism. Even if you, you donate you know, 10 million dollars to the hospital anonymously and they build a new wing on it, you've bought 10 million dollars of amazing feelings yes, and so it still.

Charles: 37:50

It still is about you.

Dan: 37:51

Yes and I don't think there's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing.

Charles: 37:55

We don't want to tell ourselves some story where, well, it's only if I suffer anonymously that it's the right thing to do. It's like, no, that's, that's coming from the cancer kids on that new wing. Even you know, even if your name's all over it, they're still benefiting from it. So right, that's fine, yeah yeah I agree. Yeah, I could. I could argue about altruism day in and day out, but not with you, because you're, I agree you agree, well, you should right yeah all right.

Charles: 38:19

So that's the book, dan. I don't know exactly what we're going to do next, but you and I will certainly decide by next week and we'll be back with a fresh episode on another book. One of the things Dating Essentials for Men, part 2, is on our list. We want to talk about that. We want to spend a little bit of time talking about the male loneliness epidemic through reality and a couple other topics that I'd like to get into, but you and I will have a talk this week, within the next couple of days, about which one we want to settle on, and we will also, at some point, I'm going to open up an event for our listeners in the Central Florida area where, if they want to get together and hang out with us, they can. So you and I are going to talk about what that looks like logistically, and we'll put out a date and a place with plenty of notice where people could just show up and buy us dinner. Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Rub elbows with us. So all right, dan. Thanks very much. We'll talk to you next time.

Charles: 39:14

Overall, I slightly recommend the book more than I recommend staying away from it. All right, that's 51% for Mal, 3.1 stars. All right, all right. All right, take it easy. All right, have a good one. Thanks so much for listening to the entire episode, dan, and I certainly do appreciate it. Hit mindfullymasculinecom if you want to check out our audio episodes, video episodes and anything else we feel like sharing, and next week we will be back with a new series on a new topic, so tune in and