Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Beyond Romance: The Economics of Desire
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan dive into psychologist Dr. Orion Taraban’s provocative appearance on The Diary of a CEO. Taraban is known for his blunt take on dating, relationships, and masculinity—arguing that men are invisible until they bring value, that love is not earned but given, and that relationships at their core are transactional.
We unpack his biggest ideas, from the economics of attraction to the dangers of performative masculinity, and explore how they intersect with our own experiences and the work of thinkers like Robert Glover and Mel Robbins. Along the way, we wrestle with tough questions:
- Are relationships really just value exchanges dressed up as romance?
- What happens when men try to prove their worth with words instead of action?
- Can sublimating sexual energy actually fuel achievement and purpose?
- Is compromise the death of passion, or the foundation of long-term love?
Whether you agree with Taraban’s framework or find it too cold, his ideas force us to reconsider what we bring to the table—and what we expect in return.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
- Why Taraban sees love as a gift, not a transaction
- The distinction between performative masculinity and core masculinity
- How porn, OnlyFans, and substitutes for intimacy change men’s drive
- Why disappointment is the real beginning of every relationship
- How to balance the economics of love with the mystery of connection
For full episodes, audio, and video, visit mindfullymasculine.com
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It's not enough to just be a quote unquote great guy. It's like you have to be a great guy who's also willing to put yourself out there to say, hey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a great guy, and here's why. Yeah, and you have to be able to demonstrate that in ways that are not easily faked, because it's a woman's job to figure out. Ok, is this guy really a great guy, or is this guy somebody who's just practiced acting and looking like he's a great guy?
Dan:Well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what does great guy even mean? Like what makes you great? You need to go further than that. You can't just say I'm a great guy, oh, because what you? Oh, one of the last things you should.
Charles:Like animals. I mean like One of the last things you should do is try to use your words to convince people you're a great guy, because words, words are super cheap. Welcome to the mindfully masculine podcast. This is charles, and this episode is coming to you a little later than planned. My work schedule has been really busy and also I had some technical issues that took longer to resolve. But here we are you're getting an episode now, another one on monday, and then we'll be back to our usual schedule. This week we're talking about Dr Orion Terriban's appearance on Diary of a CEO. He's a psychologist with a very direct, no-nonsense style who looks at relationships through the lens of behavioral economics. His ideas are provocative that men are invisible until they bring value, that relationships are fundamentally transactional and that masculinity comes down to spine and balls. Dan and I will dig into what we agree with, where we push back and how his perspective compares with other voices we've explored on the show. For all of our full episodes, audio and video, check out mindfullymasculinecom and enjoy.
Dan:Good morning Charles.
Charles:Hello Dan.
Dan:How are you? I'm doing well, excellent. Check out mindfullymasculinecom and enjoy part of your day.
Charles:It is no best part of my week we have still yet to land on a long-term series, like we usually do, and we're kind of just uh, exploring some of the things that interest us right now, that we are that we find interesting, and so our last episode was about the ai girlfriends and as part of that we watched three video clips where it was discussed, and one of those clips kind of grabbed us both a little harder than the other two, which was the? Uh, it was from an excerpt from the diary of a ceo podcast with uh orion taraban, who is a doctor of psychology and he has a very prominent YouTube channel. I'm surprised I'd never heard of this guy before. Maybe I'd seen his stuff and just hadn't looked at it.
Charles:But Psych Hacks is the name of his YouTube channel and he's written a book called the Value of Others, and so he basically looks at romantic or sexual relationships through the prism of behavioral economics and, uh, I find his, his style really appeals to me because he really just kind of boils everything down to data and and here's how people behave and here's why they behave that way, and here's it's.
Charles:It's very analytical, which, like, I always try to remember when I come upon information like that and it really resonates with me. I also try to keep in mind okay, man, there are some people who would really not like this at all. Just because the style is not is not what they're looking for when it comes to relationship advice. I mean, and you know, I'm, I'm a little bit of, uh, I'm, I'm a bit sentimental, I'm a bit romantic and, um, I'm a bit in the camp of I want my relationship advice, or just the way I talk about relationships I want there to be a little bit of woo-woo and in there and this guy has no time for that whatsoever.
Dan:Yeah.
Dan:To the point where, yeah, I, so I I've watched the full episode that we're going to talk about today and I've also listened to his entire book and, uh, I found both to be extremely valuable, but also, like, as I was listening to it, I was very aware of the fact, like the things that make me into this are the things that I think a lot of other people would be like I am not into this at all interesting the way I look at it is I appreciate him because he explains to me why the woo woo, some of that woo woo exists, like the, and, and to me that kind of validates it and allows me to then, I guess, more freely dive into those types of experiences and knowing that there is a reason for it, it's not all based on pure feelings and it reassures me that a lot of my instincts and intuitions are more accurate than I actually was believing to begin with, and it's kind of dismissing it.
Dan:Oh, you know, I'm doing this or she's doing that because of just the way we feel and there's no real reason for it. And then my mind goes to okay, could that be leading us down a dangerous path? And it could be. But he explains what paths you possibly could take based on what you're doing in those specific situations, and I guess we'll get more into those specific examples on the podcast.
Charles:Yeah, can you? Can you think of anything in particular that really jumped out or resonated with you the most of what he had to say? I mean, it doesn't have to be the number one. Yeah, something big, that really right.
Dan:Yeah, um, a lot of it was just that be aware of what you're bringing to the table, right in terms of the energy and the value that you bring to the relationship. People are only in, not only, but really people are in relationships. They have relationships because they're getting something out of it right At some level. Right and the value, and it could just be good feelings, that that is a valid, that you were bringing somebody good feelings and that is valid. And to me that is not transactional, that is not a cold, you know business type of relationship. It is transactional.
Charles:But I think, okay, part of what he wants to do is is kind of take the the negative stigma away from a word like transactional right I.
Charles:I don't remember exactly the phraseology he uses, but he basically says a successful relationship happens when two people are trading non-identical goods that are of comparable value to each other. Because I mean, if you and I are in a business relationship and all I have to offer you are the exact same things you have to offer me, no matter how valuable they are, it doesn't matter. There's no relationship to be had there. If all you can offer me is what I already have and all I can offer you is what you already have, then there's no reason for us to trade or engage with each other at all. It has to be I've got something to give you and you've got something to give me, and they're very different from each other, but we both think that they're worth about the same and the closer we can get to that, so the more different your offering is from mine and mine is from yours, the more I'm like Ooh, this is not something I can. I can't make this up on my own. I have to get this from someone else. And the more close they are in value to each other, the more excited I'm going to be to engage in that transaction with you and we're okay with talking about business relationships that way, 100%, because you know I talk about capitalism and how I consider myself a capitalist and there's a lot of especially among the people I hang out with, because I spend a lot of time with both girls and guys who kind of lean center left or further than that, and so capitalism has a bit of a negative connotation among young people, among a lot of women, among anybody who considers themselves leftist or progressive.
Charles:And what I always say is capitalism to me is not that bank's too big to fail. We have to hand them a bunch of money. Capitalism to me is the farmer grows the best tomatoes you've ever tasted and he takes them to the market and you're happy to hand over $5 for a little basket. Sure, that's the version of capitalism that I, that I support and that I think is good for people, that I support and that I think is good for people. And so this kind of capitalism where his tomatoes are worth at least five, his little basket's worth at least $5 to me and I'm happy to hand it over and my $5 is worth way more to him than his basket of tomatoes, yeah, and so we're able to both engage in a transaction that we both walk away feeling really good about.
Charles:And transferring that to personal relationships gets a little cringy for people sometimes and I I understand that, but that doesn't make it not true, right? And? And focusing on what, what those things are, that men and women and um, in the book he uses the analogy of, of captains and passengers, and how those don't necessarily correlate to gender at all. Um, but, yeah, you, basically you have to come into the relationship with two different roles and two different needs. If you're going to have and we've talked about that with other books that we've explored too about polarity there has to be, there has to be a big enough difference in what you want and what you offer in order to find somebody that is going to want to engage with you, to find somebody that is going to want to engage with you. And, uh, yeah, I, I, really I like the idea of being able to understand this in in terms that we're all maybe not all, but many of us are more familiar with, which is the terms of, you know, a, a trading transaction.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:But again I realized how some people could get uncomfortable with that. Um, one of the things he is a concern of his that he talked about quite a bit on the podcast is the fact that, um, relationships, um, the number of relationships are decreasing, and that's I was a little surprised to find that out. That's relationships across the board, it's casual relationships, it's dating relationships, it's marriages. It's like just two people coming together and choosing to get in a relationship with each other is not happening as much, and why do you think?
Dan:that is Like what jumps out to you about that I think these days we have a lot more options available to us and so we don't necessarily need to get multiple options met or needs met from one person.
Dan:And I think in the past, when we didn't have as much access to information, we didn't have as much access to travel, we were limited in terms of the options we had available to us in terms of relationships, and so a lot of times we'd end up kind of being in a relationship with somebody and needing to have that relationship in order to get a lot of our needs met, whereas now we've got so many different I mean even not not even like sexually related, right, so like just interest.
Dan:In the video he talks about how he wanted to. Initially he wanted to find somebody. He had all these selection criteria coming up and looking for a partner you know, a woman that he could not only have a romantic relationship with but also want to talk about quantum mechanics and loved horseback riding and all this. And you know he went to a counselor and the guy was like why do you need a woman to talk about quantum mechanics? Like why and he thought about it no, you can find a guy or a group of people to meet those, all those individual needs, and I think that's one of the the reasons now is the people are decreasing the amount of relationships we have is because romantic relationships is because we can get those needs met from other ways, including pornography right that's another.
Dan:He did talk about that quite a bit and that's the thing is a lot of younger guys they're falling into these, you know, pornography addictions, because, first of all, it's everywhere, right, so it's. It's on all the social media platforms, it's not just on only fans and everything else Looking for porn, to find porn.
Dan:And it's very right and exactly so. It's very right and exactly so. It's very accessible and it's not quite as good as having you know sex with somebody, but it's, you know it's close enough or they're kind of settling for that and the point, but it's good enough.
Charles:And the point you brought up last in the last episode was if you've never had a girlfriend before, you don't know how much how good it'd be. You don't know how much different, yeah, you know, whacking off to porn by yourself is from having a woman in your life who wants to be physically intimate with you, right, and so if you never, you know sampled the difference, then yeah, you're never gonna, you're never gonna realize what you're missing out on. You're just gonna assume, oh, it's probably about the same.
Dan:Yeah, and the other thing too, is that there's a cost to finding and having a girlfriend, right In terms of time and effort and also finances as well. Right, it's a lot.
Dan:It's a lot less time, a lot less effort and a lot less vulnerability and the potential for everything Right so so you really need to be sold that the juice is worth the squeeze Right In order to make that effort, and so, yeah, that's why guys are having relationships with AI girlfriends and and with only fans, girls and everything else Right. It's a lot easier.
Charles:And it's really hard for me to get concerned with the macro level of oh, if this trend continues, there's going to be a population collapse and it's, you know, as two guys without kids it's like big deal, it's not going to be my problem, yeah, so it's hard for me to get excited about trying to participate in the macro level fixes of this when I really, you know'll, it'll work out the way that it works out. Yeah, if there's a population collapse and if the world gets worse because we're not making enough babies right now, my attitude about that and that could change. You know, who knows what the future is going to hold. Maybe, you know, I end up having a kid and then it becomes a really big deal to me, but that's not right now. So so it's like, you know, I don't really care that much.
Dan:He did make an interesting point that is like a tangent to that, which is, if guys are at home pleasuring themselves masturbating to porn all the time, they then lose the drive to do other things and be contributing members of society in terms of building companies and, you know, building bridges and roads and all the other things that humans do when men are in a horny state. Quote unquote right, it drives you to do things. Same thing with that hunger. You're not going to go and hunt unless you're hungry, Right? So why are you going to go and risk yourself out in the wilderness trying to hunt down some animal If you're not hungry? It's not worth it. Same thing you need to be hungry and horny in this case.
Dan:If you're a little horny, you're going to tend to do things more. And I know, when I've taken a break from masturbating, I do have more energy and I do feel like I wanted to go out and do more things. It's not always sex related, but it's. I do feel like there's this underlying base of energy that rises up. I already have fairly low energy cause I don't sleep well most of the time, so I'm very sensitive to knowing when I've got more energy and when I've got less energy and I know the times where I've taken a break from from, from, you know, from masturbating. Yeah, I've, I've definitely got more energy all right.
Dan:Well, if I ever take a break, I will weigh in, and you know, because I know, I know you've got your stance on that, where I know glover was talking about not you know going for a while, and I think other other people that we've read about have said and I've complained about it, like why exactly right everybody talking about masturbate?
Charles:like, if you're an influencer in the masculine space, the first thing you have to do is start telling people not to masturbate anymore. It is like I am not signing on to that, right? Uh, I I'm not telling people masturbate, more, masturbate, less masturbate at all. I, I'm staying out of it. So you do what you want to do I. But I yeah, I've never, at the times that I've been single and I've been looking for a partner, either by being more social or by being on the apps or whatever I've never felt like my, my masturbation frequency would have an impact on that.
Dan:Well, you know, I think that also comes down to our our testosterone levels as well. So that's the things I think.
Charles:If you if you're like a greater than sign in the number 1600, maybe then you don't need to take a break.
Dan:Right's. The thing is more, maybe that's more maintenance than anything else. Right, that's, that's a yeah so I think if you, yeah, if you don't have and these days you know the average, you know the average guy's testosterone level is a lot lower than it was, you know, 34 years ago.
Charles:It's just constantly decreasing and I I've never seen really any conclusive. I mean, you know, people talk about microplastics, they'll talk about pollution, talk about all sorts of things, but I and they'll also talk about the psychological effect well you're not spending time around other men doing difficult things, and that has an impact on it as well, I think it's probably our society is moving, it's all generally moving the testosterone level down because also, as you gain weight, the fat that you carry gives off estrogen too, and that basically negates the testosterone you have in your body as well.
Dan:And we all know that the world is getting fatter and we're not getting any thinner.
Charles:At least the West is Right.
Dan:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean that's making its way over to the east, too, with our foods and everything else. Yeah, so absolutely. I think it's a logical conclusion that, yeah, we're not, definitely we're not promoting more testosterone in men in any way. Yeah, and from from anything in our lifestyles.
Charles:Yeah, and, and we've talked about how, just you know, a slight bump in that can motivate you to do things that you were were not willing to do otherwise can motivate you to do things that you were were not willing to do otherwise. Right, and whether that's through, you know you start lifting, you start eating better or you start getting exogenous hormone injections. It does change your, your willingness to get up and get crap done and it just cause it's weird, it you feel uncomfortable if you're not getting up and getting crap done.
Dan:Yep and uh, it's a magic vial that is able to make that transform in the lives of many men our age and younger, and the nice thing is that sometimes that's just the kickstart that you need and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I've got the energy to do this.
Charles:Well, maybe now I'm more willing to eat that food that I'm not really a fan of and and pay attention to the things that I'm eating, and maybe I'll start walking or moving or exercising more going out for long walks and definitely, and so when I started all that, and now it's a habit, now it's something that right, um, I, my identity is now I'm a guy who goes out for long walks and I enjoy it right and and and that's, and there you go, and then so you, maybe that's, that's what needs to happen.
Dan:And then, before you know it, you know the guys who never had girlfriends and never had real sex before you know they have it once and like, oh okay, Maybe now that I'm, I'm, I'm the guy that goes out and has sex. You know it's like, instead of sitting home and masturbating, so here's a quote I want to talk about.
Charles:He says that men are invisible until they offer value. I would say that really applies to everybody. It's just what do you have to do to offer that value when? I think women, because in most Western societies women are the gatekeepers on sexual intimacy and women are going to be pursued by men for sexual opportunities. They have some inherent value in just the fact that they are a woman.
Charles:In a Western society where romantic love and consent, consensual sex, is the norm, um, they, they get to have some of that value to other men just by being a woman, where I don't know that men have the same kind of intrinsic value to women just for being a man. And so, yeah, I do feel like men have to. If they want to be considered as a viable option in a dating market or the sexual marketplace, they have to clearly not only bring something to the table but have a method of advertising the fact that they bring something to the table. Well said, where it's. It's not enough to just be a quote-unquote great guy. It's like you have to be a great guy who's also willing to put yourself out there to say hey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a great guy, and here's why yeah and you have to be able to demonstrate that in ways that are not easily faked, because it's it's a woman's job to figure out.
Charles:Okay, is this guy really a great guy, or is this guy somebody who's just practiced acting and looking like he's a great guy?
Dan:well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what does great guy even mean? Like, what makes you great? Right, you need to go further than that. You can't just say I'm, I'm a great guy, oh, because what you oh.
Charles:One of the last things you're like one of the last things like animals. I mean one of the last things you like. One of the last things like animals? I mean like one of the last things you should do is is try to use your words to convince people you're a great guy, because words, words are super cheap and then I'll decide if you're amazing and fun and sexy and hilarious and all all those, all those labels that are super easy to just apply to yourself. It's like no show, don't tell, right?
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And I think that's certainly true for men who are looking to attract women. It's like if you're just telling a girl, either on your dating profile or in person, I'm smart, I'm successful, I'm funny, and it's like, well, the people who actually are those things don't usually feel the need to tell people that they are, and so, like, well, the people who actually are those things don't usually feel the need to tell people that they are, yeah, and so but at the same time, you do need to show some sort of yeah.
Charles:you need to demonstrate it, not vocalize it.
Dan:Right, right. So you want to make that impression and what? And I think it was this video there where the Dr Ryan was saying you know, guys kind of have it easy, because all you need to do is get a haircut and put on a clean suit and or a nice pair of clothes and you've already separated, You've already gone up on a 10 point scale. You've already gone up almost the whole point as a man in terms of attractiveness, whereas women have a little bit more of a difficult time. They have to do a lot of, sometimes plastic surgery and everything else in order to bump up in terms of the initial attractiveness. And he doesn't shy away from that. He basically is like yeah, you know what, don't judge a book by its cover, but we all do judge a book by its cover, and that's the at least. That at least gets you to open the door or open the book to then read what's inside.
Dan:Yeah, so you need that you need that attractive cover.
Charles:You absolutely do. And uh, there are, um, there are things you can do that are fairly simple, um, to maximize, I mean, hygiene is one of them. I mean just looking like you know you give a damn about being clean and looking clean and smelling clean and stuff like that. You got to do that. You've got to pay people to cut your hair on a regular basis because I mean, yeah, maybe some people can do it on their own and get a pretty good result.
Dan:I mean, I got a flobie, you know, I just remember. Do you remember those? It was a vacuum vacuum cleaner with the little the blade on it oh my god, my hair was cut by a Flowbee.
Charles:exclusive, you had one Multiple years.
Dan:No, get out of here.
Charles:You actually had one. Grandparents bought one and cut my hair with a Flowbee for I would say probably middle school Get out of here.
Dan:Did it ever come out the way? Did you like it? It wasn't bad, Okay, I mean it was.
Charles:I've never I mean, in all fairness, I've never used the was mid. It was okay, it was fine. It didn't look great, but it didn't look terrible. Hey, I mean I've got a head. I've got really thick hair. Well, I I keep talking to the present tense I had really thick hair where pretty much anything you know, I I could do a one guard all over the whole thing okay, okay yeah, okay.
Charles:So yeah, with the flow b, it was fine I've got, I've looked at some pictures from that time period and it's like, okay, I look like a kid whose parents cut his hair, but not like disaster level.
Dan:Yeah, but back then I mean kids hair. I mean nobody's walking around like a supermodel.
Charles:Yeah, it was. Yeah, late 80s, early 90s. It was all garbage so it was fine. But, um, one thing he talks about is performative masculinity and plumage and peacocking and things like that and I think we talked about that. I don't remember if we talked about on last episode or maybe you and I just talked about it privately. Um, I like the idea of wearing like when you go out to socialize, whether you're out looking for girls or just hanging out with your friends.
Charles:I like the idea of having a conversation piece as part of your outfit, and I think that most guys can pick something like the, the book by Neil Strauss, the game where he talks about that guy mystery who would wear like, uh, what is it? A sequined top hat and a pink feather boa? It's like no, most people should not do that because I mean, if somebody did that, walking into matters, I'd be like, look at that fucking clown. I mean I, yeah, but there is something that you can do. That is just a step above what other people are probably willing to do and that can be your thing and, uh, you don't wear it all the time and you have, you have like a few of them in your wardrobe, but I, I think it's important to to have a piece that somebody has a good chance of saying, oh, I like that.
Charles:Fill in the blank um, last night I went to a jukebox bingo at a local german deli, okay, with my friend tracy and my friend other charles, um, which is what he calls me, um, and I wore a shirt I got recently a short sleeve button up with dinosaurs on it and, sure enough, I had somebody come up to me and say, man, I really like your dinosaur shirt and you know it's it's a little silly and but it was comfortable, I like. I like wearing clothes with bright colors and having somebody just come up to tell me that they like my shirt spontaneously. It feels nice. Yeah, if you're just wearing, you know, uh, an average heather gray polo shirt, nobody's ever going to walk up to you and say I like your shirt, right?
Dan:because that could mean actually something else at that point. Right, because it's like nobody, right, I feel like nobody does that. Oh, I love your heather gray shirt. It's just like what are you getting?
Charles:at right? It could be. You know right. Are you attracted to me? Do you like my body? Or it could be. Are you trying to sell me something? Or it could be right. If you walk into a place with a shirt that has dinosaurs or cats or codos on it or something, just something a little out of the ordinary yeah, because it can be left at just that.
Dan:It could be like I like your shirt and then you know exactly, and it legitimately could just be it's a cute shirt.
Charles:Right, or you know, if you're looking to meet people and have interactions, you could go immediately into oh thanks, I love dinosaurs. I loved dinosaurs since I was a kid. My favorite dinosaur is a titanosaur. What's your favorite dinosaur? And you could actually turn into a social interaction. Obviously, I didn't do any of those things, but I could have if I wanted to, Absolutely.
Dan:Absolutely action. Obviously, I didn't do any of those things, but I could have if I wanted to, absolutely, absolutely.
Charles:I mean it's. It's happened in the past, right, yes, absolutely, um, so yeah, I would say figure out what is something that is a little bit uncomfortable for you to wear, that you think people might notice, and just go ahead and try it and see what points of what?
Dan:triple it.
Charles:do it head to toe. Clown costume Um, yeah, so that that is something that I would say is uh is a is a good habit to at least experiment with and see how it goes. Because, again, you gotta do something. You don't want to just be the white piece of bread at the restaurant, at the bar, at the run club, at the whatever. Because if, if somebody is interested in you and they think you know whether guy, girl, friend, romantic interest, whatever, if they're thinking man, I'd like to, I'd like to talk to that guy, but I don't know what to say. If you're wearing a slightly silly shirt, boy, it sure makes it easy for them. Yeah, and then there you go off to the races.
Charles:He, he did say something about, uh, defining masculinity as to be a man, you have to have a spine and you have to have balls, which I find the language a little simplistic. But look, the guy's an author, the guy's a personality. He's got to find a way to say something quick and easy that will resonate with people. And so that's, I think, what he was going for there when he says you have to have a spine. What he's made clear is you have to be willing to stand up and be seen and cast a shadow, and cast a shadow, and then when he says you have to have balls, what he's referring to is you have to be willing to take that stand and then defend it and be willing to say, yeah, this is what I believe and I'm not going to back down and I like the way he said when you take a stand, you cast a shadow right and now you're going to have to defend.
Dan:There's people who are going to basically come out of that shadow and try to basically say hey look, you know I'm offended by this or I've got a problem with this in some way.
Charles:Or even just I have a question about this. Why are you choosing to stand for this instead of?
Dan:Oh, that would be nice. People actually still ask questions these days, really.
Charles:Yeah, you can get that occasionally, okay, and I mean those are, I would say those are the best kind of people, the kind of people that are willing to say, hey, wait a second, I thought you were about this, but now you're standing up for this. That feels like a conflict to me. I'd like to learn more to understand where you're coming from.
Dan:Yeah, that'd be nice.
Charles:I try to approach people that way. When I see, you know, when I see one post that somebody makes online that feels like it's inconsistent with other stuff that they've shared, yeah, you know, I usually try to do that. If there's somebody that matters to me and that I know personally, then I do that with them, not in front of everybody else, but like, hey, you've said that this is a value, but now you're saying this, so I'm a little confused. Is that something you want to talk about? And I've had to do it recently, actually, and what was trump's response to that? Um, he and I, we, we don't talk, we don't communicate directly.
Dan:Very often, oh, okay, not anymore.
Charles:I think he's changed. We're not as close as we used to be. Um, yeah, we would hang out on the island. He was so, so much more easy going. That's going to get cut. Um, okay, one one thing that, uh, we recently talked a lot with uh about Mel Robbins book, um, the let them theory, and uh, we've also explored Dr Glover's work quite a bit. We've also explored Dr Glover's work quite a bit, and one of the things that I wanted to bring up was do you see any big differences between and you can throw in the Gottmans, really anybody else we've talked about on the show between Terabin's method and any of the other visionaries and luminaries that we've discussed before? Do you see anything much, much different?
Dan:I don't see the end result being any different.
Charles:Yeah, for me it's all about tone.
Dan:He's got a different tone than the other ones have, but I don't think he's really suggested anything that far I think he really honors that behavioral economics approach to things and I appreciate that because that really answers the why. And I have a lot of times it's like, well, why, I'm curious, why do we behave this way, or why do humans interact this way, or why do we feel this way? And he is great way of kind of cutting right through all of the, the fluff and the the. You know the shoulds that we get from society and from from our world around us about. You know people should be acting this way or should be acting that way, even if they do align with behavioral economics. What he's talking about. It's not clear. Those other people that we've been listening to, it's not clear exactly why they have like kind of touched it or danced around it. I feel he kind of gets to the root of it it.
Charles:I feel he kind of gets to the root of it. Yeah, I would. I would say that too, and and again is. And his, his delivery method is one that I think, especially you know, listening to his audio book, he really does get into the weeds with the behavioral economics to the point where I think it could, unless you're really motivated to understand you, you know, and sort of get a fresh perspective on relationships. Yeah, it can. It can grate on you a little bit, it can. It's like, okay, I feel like I'm listening to a 13 hour long college lecture and I enjoyed it. I thought it was great. I like listening to his book and I liked his style and I think he's.
Charles:He was good at reading it and good at performing the, the um, the reading. But, uh, I could definitely see somebody thinking this isn't but, but you're right, he did cut. He cut the bs to the point where he said stuff that would be um, upsetting to some people and because it's just not stuff we're used to hearing in black and white, um, one of the points he makes is that when it comes to relationships, we will both men and women, will both essentially settle for the best partner they think they're capable of getting, and so what's nice is when you find yourself in a situation where you're with a woman who you think is the best girl you could ever get, and she thinks you're the best guy you could ever get, and you live happily ever after and he said that's like a happy accident.
Dan:That's not right. That's not usually the case.
Charles:You can have a relationship but not be in love yeah, that was, yeah, the whole his attitude about love and being in love and relationships. As far as romantic love goes and he delves into that quite deeply in his, in his book um, yeah, it's, there were some bitter pills to swallow.
Dan:So, with looking at things that way, Did we get into on the last podcast about his his take on compromise I don't remember if that was us talking again or if that was on the podcast where he basically doesn't believe in compromise, and on the Diary of the CEO podcast you know Stephen was asking him is just like, well, doesn't everybody have to compromise when you get into relationship? Isn't that part of it? And he said just be careful of using that term, because that implies that you are sacrificing something that you want and almost with this expectation that the other person is going to sacrifice something that they want, and that brings in like a dangerous situation. And what was enlightening for me was the way he reframed that and said instead of having those compromises, rethink your selection criteria before you go into a relationship. So have fewer ands, right? So I want, right, I want somebody who are deal break, deal breakers, right, so the more ands you have, the more expensive it is in terms of what or how difficult it's going to be to live in and have a happy relationship if you've got all of these and wants to talk about quantum mechanics and you know, is loves, loves to go horseback riding and all these other things and instead, you know, figure out what you want out of a romantic partner and all those other ends, the, you know, the ability to be a good bowling partner and and and you know all these other things. Find that from from other places and other people, yeah, and, and so I think I think that was a great. That was a great way of thinking about going into relationships where you're not then requiring a compromise.
Dan:And what you said was being also be a little selfish and be loud about being selfish, so meaning, don't be afraid to communicate what you want, and so that way you find somebody who then hears that communication, hears the things that you need and that you want, and is okay with them, so that it is not down the road a compromise for them, where they're like, oh, oh, I didn't realize you, you know you wanted this or you needed things this way, or you wanted to behave in that way, because you kind of hit it at the beginning. You're trying to put your best foot, you didn't want to be too demanding, and things like that. He's like no, you know, you really should be a little bit selfish and vocalize that, and that's really about being your true self.
Charles:Yeah, one of the things he gets into in the book which I'll happily provide a little bit of a preview on because it's very relevant to what we're talking about right now is he's mostly against the idea of dating, where he says that what most of us do when we are dating someone is we try to create the most novel and exciting version of our life and then grab them by the hand and walk them through that.
Charles:Or it's like, um, like other experts in the field that you and I agree with.
Charles:You know, the first time you meet somebody new it's it's either let's grab a quick drink or let's grab coffee and have a conversation, try to figure out what each of us is actually about.
Charles:Um, but he says, as soon as is, as soon as possible, your time that you spend dating this person should be more about bringing them into kind of the routine of your life and not going straight to let's go out and, you know, play mini golf. He's like if you're, if you're an avid mini golfer, then by all means bring her along, but if you're not and you're just going out of your way to do things that you think she'll find fun and, you know, going on a weekend trip to a spa that you've never been to before and never would go to on your own, and you're just doing it to bring her along. It's like, yeah, you're. You're just prolonging this process of showing somebody else the most exciting version of your life that doesn't actually exist and getting them used to that. And then by the time real life kicks in and your real schedule kicks in and your real habits and interests kick in, it's like who is this person? This isn't who I got to know over the last.
Dan:That's a great way of thinking about it, absolutely, because, yeah, if you're not seeing the day-to-day right at the very beginning, you don't even have anything to contrast it with. It's kind of like this whole thing with we're talking about with the guys who don't know what it's like to have sex with a woman because they've never had it before, right it's. It's like all right, well, you're not seeing what reality is at that point. Right, and yeah, it's okay to do those things, but this should be an occasional vacation or whatever. But yeah, the root of that relationship really should be founded on what your day-to-day routine looks like. Right, and so that's that's. But then how do you, how do you convey that? How do you pull that something like that off in reality?
Charles:you basically have to keep your, your dates as informal and as close to the kinds of things that you enjoy and you have do solo. So that is, you know, going out for coffee, going out for fun but inexpensive meals, um, going for walks, I mean, in my case, going for walks. I mean, in my case, going for walks, basically building enough rapport up that she feels safe enough with you. That spending some time at her house or spending some time at your house and just cooking dinner together and watching a movie or playing a board game, I mean, yeah, you don't invite somebody to do that for the first date because any sane woman is going to be like no, I'm not coming to your house, you know to Uno and chill.
Charles:Yeah, exactly Not, not for a first date. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. If somebody is open to it and you're looking to keep things casual, I get it. But, um, I think, I think most women would be reasonably um, yeah, you just scared off or turned off to. Yeah. Um, yeah, you scared off or turned off to. Yeah, you needed some rapport. Absolutely yeah, you build some rapport, you show yourself as a sane, safe person. But then, yeah, as soon as you can get it to the point of, yeah, let's, let's hang out and uh, so no big fancy dinners?
Charles:no, you know, no weekend cruises to places okay, not, certainly not at the beginning, not until not until you're in an established relationship with somebody that you know you want to be in a relationship with. And I'm revisiting a part two of Dr Glover's book that you and I are going to cover at some point. Uh, dating essentials for men and um, and his big thing that he emphasizes is delay sex as long as you can as well, so that you can really keep your head on on the target of. I need to figure out what this gal's about whether we're compatible and as soon as I see some big signs that we're not, I need to cut this off so that I'm not wasting her time and she's not wasting mine and I can move on to spending my time with somebody else.
Charles:And that gets harder after you started having sex with somebody, a hundred percent. So yeah, um and I think I think Terabain would probably agree with that as well Um, that it's it's better to be in a position where you can hire slow and fire fast, and as much as men would probably have the tendency to dismiss that and say no, just cause I started having sex with a girl doesn't mean it's not going to be harder for me to uh break up. It's like well I.
Charles:I get the motivation why you might feel the need to say that, but because you want to have sex.
Dan:That's why that's what you say.
Charles:It's the only reason why you're saying it right but hey, you and I are are different guys in a lot of different ways, but we both kind of agree with that. Like if you're in a new relationship and you start having sex with somebody, it is going to be more difficult for you when has it ever not been more difficult?
Dan:right, I mean that's yeah, it's.
Charles:It's harder to pull the plug, and that's why but everybody's the exception right, it's nothing of what everybody thinks of the exception, right, and that's that's why, you know, with some of the um breakup and reconciliation advice that you and I have talked about, you know where a guy is like oh, my girlfriend broke up with me, I'd love to get back together with her. Some of the advice out there is, you know, basically okay, well, if she reaches out to you, if she makes contact, get her back, get her back to your place for dinner and, you know, have fun and hook up with her.
Dan:And my counter advice is no, do not chance that both of you are going to think that a reconciled relationship is the best idea, even though it might not be and the other part of that is you don't know how this person has changed or hasn't changed, and you also don't know how that's going to mix in with the changes that you've had since you've been in that relationship, right and? And you start throwing, like you said, sex in there. Now the the waters are muddied and it's it's going to be very difficult to distinguish because you're going to go back to old routines as well. So you're going to be drawn back to old behaviors, not from from having that closeness, from having that intimacy yeah, the more.
Charles:The more that feels like old times, the more you're going to act like old times, and the way you acted in the old times is what led you to getting broken up with in the first place yeah so I would say and and yeah, it's the idea that you know two people are in a relationship and they split up and go their separate ways.
Charles:the odds that while they've gone their separate ways, they've grown and healed in ways that are going to bring them back together it's pretty slim. Usually the opposite happens, you know. Either you know they don't grow at all, either one of the two parties you know just devolves as a result of the breakup and, you know, relies on some of their maladaptive coping skills to get through the pain of the breakup, or, if they do both experience some kind of a glow up in a grow up, it's more likely than not that that's going to be taking them further, apart from the people that found each other in the first place and not back together, it's not impossible right, it's, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a realization that you should have in the back of your head, but we'll, we can revisit uh breakups and makeups down the road in a little bit more detail.
Charles:One of the frustrations I see men sharing online is the idea of they kind of feel entitled to having good romantic relationships because they're good guys or because they're nice guys or because they're kind men. And what is clear from Dr Terriban's work and also just you know, one of the things I always recommend is, guys, you should have women who are your friends and women who are your friends that you actually you're not trying to make them your girlfriend, they're just your friends and you're able to be honest and nonjudgmental with each other and you can ask them their opinions on what holes you might have in your game. And again, you have to cultivate a relationship with a woman where she feels safe enough to be honest with you, that you're not going to freak out, blow up, start crying or something like that, Because if, if she's got a taste that you might do any of those things, you're not going to get a straight answer from her.
Dan:And I don't blame her.
Charles:She doesn't want to put up with that. None of us do so, um, but you should be able to say to your girlfriends, okay, what I'm not getting the results that I would like out of my romantic relationships. If, if I gave you a pass to tell you know, offer any criticism that comes to mind, and I'm, I'm not going to hold it against you, I'm not going to freak out. I really am looking to improve myself. What would you say I needed to focus on? Definitely do that and keep in mind that being a nice guy, being a kind guy, kind guy, um, not being a dangerous guy all those things are the bare minimum.
Charles:So for healthy women, none of those are going to set you apart from their other options. That is going to be the absolute least that they're looking for. Like, oh, you're a good guy, oh you're you're not going to make a, uh, unwanted physical pass at me during a date. Like, yeah, no crap. That that is the bare minimum for how a civilized, right, attractive man with lots of options behaves. Only a desperate guy who is, you know, either ethically or mentally unbalanced is going to think that, oh well, you know, I didn't, I didn't try to kiss her when she clearly didn't want to kiss me. So that makes me a good person? No, that just again. For healthy women, that is the bare minimum, yep. And so if that's the kind of girl you're looking for, which we all should be, you, you shouldn't be giving yourself credit for just being normal and expecting women to lay down and spread their legs for you just because you're not a terrible person.
Charles:All right, so we'll leave it there and, uh, we'll see what we come up with for the next episode. Thanks, dan. Bye-bye. That wraps up this episode of the mindfully masculine podcast. We hope our conversation about dr orion taraban's ideas gave you something to think about, whether it's the way you view relationships, masculinity or just the role you play in your own life. We'll be back with another episode on Monday and then return to our regular release schedule. For all of our full episodes, audio and video, visit mindfullymasculinecom. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
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