Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Seduction: Art of Attraction or Game of Manipulation?
In this week’s episode of The Mindfully Masculine Podcast, Charles and Dan dive into Steven Bartlett’s most-viewed Diary of a CEO interview — his conversation with Robert Greene, author of The 48 Laws of Power.
What starts as a look at Greene’s ideas on seduction, confidence, and power turns into a bigger exploration of what really drives human behavior. Charles and Dan unpack the tension between authenticity and performance, confidence and insecurity, attraction and manipulation. They discuss the fine line between influence and deceit — and why the word seduction can mean either self-mastery or self-deception, depending on the intent behind it.
The conversation also moves beyond power dynamics into addiction, codependence, and vulnerability — including how chasing validation can become its own form of addiction, and why genuine confidence has to be built, not performed.
Topics include:
- Why “seduction” can feel manipulative — and how Greene tries to reframe it
- The difference between cultivating attraction and playing games
- Power as self-control vs. control over others
- The role of confidence, competence, and comfort in your own skin
- Masks, roles, and authenticity in modern life
- How addiction and codependence mirror our search for control
- What real strength looks like in relationships and leadership
If you’ve ever wondered where healthy confidence ends and manipulation begins, this episode offers a nuanced take on the psychology of power, presence, and connection.
Listen, follow, and share The Mindfully Masculine Podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and visit mindfullymasculine.com for more.
I don't know if it's just because of my familiarity with the work of Robert Glover or my familiarity with the Manosphere or my familiarity with you know people who fancy themselves as pickup artists. The word seduction gives me the creeps every time I hear it.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Because for me it's when I hear seduction, it's like it's framed as far as getting. Not it's not being, it's getting. It's like not who can I be, it's what can I get.
Dan:To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles:Yeah, same. That that that occurs to me as well. Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. In today's episode, Dan and I dive into the most viewed episode of the Diary of a CEO podcast, Stephen Bartlett's conversation with Robert Green, the author of The 48 Laws of Power. We unpack Green's ideas on seduction, confidence, and authenticity, and explore how they intersect with the themes we return to often on this show self-mastery, vulnerability, and what it really means to embody strength in the modern world. If you'd like to learn more or catch past episodes, visit mindfullymasculine.com. Thanks and enjoy. Good morning, Charles. Good morning, Dan. How are you? I am well. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Happy Friday to you. Happy Friday to you. We've changed our recording day from Thursday to Friday because of some new flexibility in my schedule. So I'm happy to uh to do this back on Friday like we used to. And I appreciate you accommodating my my restricted schedule. No, not at all. It's very it was a very easy change to make. We were we were doing it on Thursday just because when we switched it to Thursday, I was driving all the way from Wesley Chapel. And so Thursday worked much better for me because uh I would come over for my men's group on Wednesday night and then just crash here, and then we'd get up and do it on Thursday. But now that I am in Winter Garden and it appears I'll be doing in Winter Garden for the next year, I'm gonna be staying at the campground that I like so much over there. I'm excited about that. And uh yeah, today is Friday, October 3rd. Mm-hmm. The day that Taylor Swift's new album's been released.
Dan:Yeah, I have not had it on my calendar at any point, ever.
Charles:I've been looking forward to it for a while. Okay, so we are going to continue uh talking about episodes from the great The Diary of a CEO podcast that you and I both enjoy. And for this week we decided to go with um his biggest episodes in terms of most views, which was when he interviewed Robert Green, the author of The 48 Rules of Power and some other books. And uh I thought, sure, let's go to his most popular episode. That that will be good, that will be compelling. And it was good, it was compelling, but not as much as ones that we have picked more based on, oh, we find this person interesting.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:I so when you look at Robert Green, you f your first thought might be, okay, what is this guy based on how he looks, what's he gonna have to tell me about power, seduction, confidence, etc. And then you hear him talk, and you're like, no, really, what does this guy have to tell me about seduction? Well, because he is I I looked at him in this, and and no offense to the guy. I mean, I I see the value in not judging a book by his cover, but then I open up the book and I'm like, ugh so this guy is like he looks like a the non-charismatic version of Elton John. Yeah.
Dan:Well, I think it goes to speak to the the the skills of diarrhea of a CEO team who have a great hook. The opening of that of that video is And the way they titled it too. Right, is is you know, crazy seducers aren't necessarily attractive. And you have a picture of Robert Green, right, who, you know, needed to could have easily improved his appearance for the show, but I feel like between that line and the way he's looking on that show, people are like, oh my god, what there's gotta be some amazing secret here that I need to discover. And that's the first thing that went through my mind, and I'm like, I gotta see what this guy has to say.
Charles:But were you and that were you blown away with what he had to say? And I was disappointed. I was too. And I I think I mean, number one, you know, they they choose what keywords to use and what to put in the title based on what's gonna get him views, what's gonna get him clicks. I get that. 16 million views this one. Yes. I don't know if it's just because of my familiarity with the work of Robert Glover or my familiarity with the Manosphere or my familiarity with you know, people who fancy themselves as pickup artists. The word seduction gives me the creeps every time I hear it.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:Because for me, it's when I hear seduction, it's like it's framed as far as getting. Not it's not being, it's getting. It's like not who can I be, it's what can I get.
Dan:To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles:Yeah, same. That that that occurs to me as well. And then people will be drawn to it, and you don't have to work at it. Now, here's the thing though, when Green starts getting into defining seduction, he's making it sound more like attraction. Yeah. But I feel like him and the team at the Diary of CEO are leaning on the word seduction because it's kind of what unsophisticated people think they need to do to get what they want out of life. Yeah. It's kind of disappointing in that way.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. Uh again, it w to me, it was just a a trigger word to make you want to open and watch the video.
Charles:Right. Where based on what you and I have learned and talked about, if if anything, it would be a trigger word for me to not watch it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Where when I when I hear somebody like, oh, I'm gonna tell you the secrets of seduction, you're like, I got, I got, I don't have enough time to waste on on hearing some guy telling me about what it takes to seduce people. So I would rather spend my time on something else than hearing stories of how you seduce people. Yeah.
Dan:I think I've gotten to the point of where for me it's not just hearing your take on these techniques. It's a little bit about how you're defining seduction. So everybody has a little different, like you just said, everybody has a little bit of a different flavor of how they define it. So for me, that's part of my intrigue and why I was interested to watch that video.
Charles:Yeah, he um he does kind of reframe seduction as I mean, he he does try to bring in authenticity, vulnerability, and and I felt like the the content of at least the the introduction to the episode was a bit more valuable and higher-minded than the word Oh for sure, yeah. And and he he's talking about a lot of the same things of you know be being what you what you respect and what you desire, yeah, and then when you become those things, then other people will be drawn to you. Yeah, it's like yeah, that that is how it's supposed to work. And and I I did like he had these this this language was a little sloppy. I I like the idea, but it anti-seduction traits, where it's like, oh, if you are these things, you'll be turning people away from you. And but I I found like just having to package it as anti-seduction, it felt like I was being marketed to, not like I was being mentored. And I I I love feeling like I'm being mentored, and I hate feeling like I'm being marketed to. A lot of that we we talked about with Mel Robin's book, and you know, the way that she kind of framed things and the let them theory was like, yeah, okay, I feel like I'm being marketed to, I don't feel like I'm being mentored. Yeah, yeah.
Dan:That's an interesting point.
Charles:That's interesting, yeah. Do you agree? I mean, do you um I never felt like frame it that way to yourself in the moment?
Dan:No, I I don't feel like I'm being marketed to because there's nothing for me to buy. So I I mean, in terms of a product, maybe, maybe it's a buy in his philosophy or his beliefs or whatever it is.
Charles:I mean, I think the goal is when when somebody's really good though, I mean, yeah, when we when we did the uh Orion Taraban episode, uh I my reaction to the way he came across in that interview was I want to buy every book this guy's written and I want to read them. And I think that that's gotta be some of the reason that that uh Robert Green shows up and does these interviews. He's gotta be thinking, yeah, okay, well, if I come across the way, if I can seduce the listener, yeah, then they'll go out and buy all my books.
Dan:Right.
Charles:And, you know, I I read 48 Rules of Power or whatever years and years ago, and I wasn't blown away by it then, because I my reaction to it was similar to my reaction to what a lot of what he had to say. That like I've heard these things before from other people who are better at saying them. And so even if Robert Green was the first one to come up with some of these ideas, some of the people who've taken that ball and run with it since then have figured out a way to run with the ball in a way that appeals way more to me. Yeah. And I don't feel like I have to go back to his original material ever again.
Dan:Ironically, that's one of his pinnacles of being a seducer is making sure people feel attracted to you or figuring out what is going to make people feel comfortable. So he you talked about Errol Flynn and how he numerically had, you know, was the greatest seducer of all time, apparently. By the time he was 50, like 3,000 women he claimed like he he seduced. But when they interviewed one of the actresses that worked with him, she had said, Well, he just makes me feel so comfortable, like I've already had a couple of drinks. And so the point that I think Robert Green was trying to make was focus on the feelings that you're creating with that other person and how you're making them feel. And that is a very attractive seductive technique. And ironically, he was not making you feel the way he wants you to feel in order to purchase his his stuff.
Charles:Right. And let's talk about the Errol Flint example. Yeah, he he died in his 50s and he allegedly slept with 3,000 women plus. Yeah.
Dan:Well, he was exhausted. That's why he died early. I mean, clearly.
Charles:That sounds to me that sounds to me like a really sad life. I mean, I know he was famous, he probably was very rich. I mean, he was an actor in some very big movies, but the time and dedication that it would take to bed that many women in that short of a life, it it it doesn't feel fun to me. It doesn't it doesn't feel like he could have possibly that that is what you do when you're compelled to do something, not when you enjoy something.
Dan:Humans are wired to have addictions, and maybe that was his.
Charles:Yeah, and I mean speaking of addiction, uh, I'm I'm gonna do a a short book review and release it on our feed and and in our social media channels of All the Way to the River by Elizabeth Gilbert, and uh which was an amazing book on addiction and codependence and loss, and it just it blew me away. I really I really got a lot out of it. But people that are in in an addiction are not happy. And I I can't imagine that Errol Flynn has a I disagree.
Dan:Oh I disagree the people who are in addiction. You can't say it for all addictions because people who are Yes, I can.
Charles:I I don't I don't think so. If it is an addiction, that means that you are continually engaging in behavior that you cannot stop in the face of escalating consequences.
Dan:Okay, but that's that's you said that they're not happy. I think they're very happy. I think people who are who are strung out on drugs, they're happy. That's why they keep doing it. It makes them feel good. It's not that it's productive, not that it's a good thing, not that it's healthy. But I feel like if it wasn't feeling good for them, if they weren't happy doing that, why would they keep doing it?
Charles:That's that's why I'm because when you get so far into an addiction, yeah, you have to maintain it. Otherwise, you feel like you're dying. Okay.
Dan:Uh yeah.
Charles:I I mean I can understand that, but I still don't think like the 8,000th hit of heroin does not feel good. It feels like I need whatever 8,000 one or I'm going to die in agony.
Dan:Uh I don't know. I I mean, I I I I think I I don't agree with that. I think the it's not uh uh that's not a the conscious thought that somebody has is I need to take this, otherwise I'm gonna die in agony. I don't think that's the decision where they're like, okay, I'm gonna take this because I'm afraid I'm gonna die in agony. I feel like more I it's just my opinion. I just feel like that it would be a little bit more like this makes me feel good. I'm not thinking about these other consequences of not taking it. I'm not thinking of these other things. It's just I know what makes me feel good, and I'm driven to do those things, and that's what's making me happy. So I I I can understand what you're saying. I I just think the reason people struggle with addictions is because it's always making them feel good, and they're not they're not really thinking about those those consequences.
Charles:Yeah, see, my my experience of dealing with people who are in active addiction is not that they're not doing it because it's fun. They're doing it because they feel like they have to. Okay. Like there's a huge or else hanging out over their head that they're trying to, you know, and we've talked about, you know, running toward pleasure, running away from pain. Yeah. Every addict I've known, and and when I've been in the middle of addictive behavior myself, it's never been about, oh, I'm doing this because it's the best life. I'm doing this.
Dan:Well, right. So I'm not saying they're they're they're thinking this is they're making an amazing life. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they're thinking it's but I think you know it's that quick dopamine fix in the moment, it's gonna make me feel good. I don't think they have any I don't think they're deluding themselves into thinking this is an amazing life.
Charles:Right. But yeah, I and I would say I I think I think most of us would say that I'm continuing to use even though it's ruining my life, because I'm just trying to get back up to baseline, where my my time that I stop using is so low that I've got to cut that even when I want to stop, I come back to using just to feel normal again.
Dan:Okay, okay.
Charles:Yeah, God, that is that is a that is a rough ride to be on where you're like, you know, I have whether it's alcohol, drugs, people, relationships, whatever it is, like I have to continue using this just so that I can feel normal again. Yeah. And again, I feel like Errol Flynn with his 3,000 ladies, man. I mean, when you're dedicating so much of your time and your effort in a day to sleeping with new women, I I again, you know, maybe when you're in the double digits or the triple digits, it still feels amazing. But when you're in the quadruple digits, that's where you draw the line and just say they don't Four Zeros? I don't I don't see how I I don't see how it could be good. Yeah. And and how and how it could feel good, where you're like, you know, yes, there are there are other connections or other relationships or other goals or other dreams I have, but I have to maintain, I have to keep putting those on the back burner because I got to get my number higher and higher. And no matter what it is, I mean, even if it's sales, like I can't imagine a life like that where it's like not feeling like you're on a treadmill that you don't have the controls to. Like you just have to keep running, running, running, and you can't turn it off, nobody else is gonna turn it off for you. You're just compelled to keep running, or or pushing, you know, rolling the boulder up the hill, whatever it is. Like it just yeah, I know on the surface, you know, when you hear about a Wilt Chamberlain and Errol Flynn, uh Russell Brand, whoever's you know, got these huge body counts, it's like, oh, that what an amazing life that must be like to have that kind of sexual variety. And it's like, ooh, I I don't know, man. I think it I think it doesn't feel that way. But you know, like like we talked about last time, about the quality of your life is defined by the quality of your relationships. I can't imagine that is a life that feels high quality. Not the quantity of your relationships. Yes, that's not what Esther Perel said.
Dan:Well, that would be Yeah, it's so hard with her French accent.
Charles:Real power is not how much you can dominate other people, it's about being able to control yourself and influence your environment. And I would say influence your environment in positive ways, but I suppose power is neither positive or negative. It's simply it simply is. But um I I would say that in a my position would be that in a healthy society, the most powerful people are the people who have the most power over themselves, but we don't live in that society. No we live in a society where some very powerful people seemingly have no control over themselves whatsoever, and that's kinda that's rough because that trickles down or rolls downhill, as as you might say. Yeah.
Dan:And um But that's the thing, is just because you have power doesn't mean you have respect.
Charles:Yeah, or I mean you could there there are some people that you could look at and say, well, he's powerful and he's respected by a lot of people, if not all people. Um but he's still I mean, I I think of particular political leaders. Yeah. And I'm like I do too.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:I would not trade he he he could be the most powerful man in the world, he could be one of the richest people in the world. I would not trade my life with his tomorrow for anything. I did like that uh they spent a fair amount of time on confidence in body language, which I appreciated. And uh I I felt like Green, he's got confidence dead right, which is confidence can't really be fake, not reliably and not for a long time, because you only feel confident when you feel competent, which is you know something you and I have been saying on the show for many years now. Today's our fourth hundred our 200th episode, by the way. Oh, congratulations to you as well. Thank you. We've uh we've been at it for a while. Um, and I was thinking about this, you know, if if I I've never participated in any kind of a challenge where it's like, hey guys, let's go out to the bars and clubs and everybody should try to get 10 phone numbers tonight. Like, pfft, I'm not doing that. Screw you.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:But if I were to do that, I would not be good at it because I wouldn't feel confident at it.
Dan:Because you haven't practiced that.
Charles:Correct. Yeah. But when I think about the things that I am good at and that I I have practiced at, um, I like public speaking, I like stand-up comedy, I like sitting in a in a room explaining to people why the software that they spend all this money on isn't gonna do the thing that they want it to do and why they shouldn't want it to do that, they should want it to do this instead. When I'm in those scenarios, I feel very confident and I'm probably oh, uh when I'm at general knowledge, trivia, where I feel like, okay, if I'm if I'm alone playing against teams of people, I'm gonna finish in the money in the top three. If I'm with a group of friends with a couple other smart cookies, then I'm going to win this thing. I'm gonna get first place. It's just it's just a given. And I would wager that I probably come across as my most attractive when I'm in those scenarios because I feel confident, like, yeah, hey, I'm here because I belong here and I'm gonna, I'm gonna excel at this.
Dan:Yeah. I mean, it it speaks to the previous video that he talked about where uh uh Steven was talking about him and his girlfriend, and he was really attracted to his girlfriend when he's he saw her in her element. Exactly when she was teaching the breathwork classes. And that is exactly what you're talking about here in terms of your confidence. You are, you you know what you're doing, you're competent, you've done it many times. And yeah, that really it does speak to what Green is talking about. And they also made a point to get out and do things so that you get that competence.
Charles:Yes, absolutely. And that's when when we talk about relationship or dating advice, particularly for young men on this podcast, the thing I always say is find something, whatever it is, that you give a shit enough about to do it often enough and intensely enough that you get really good at it. And then once you have that thing in your life that you care about enough to get really good at it, then while you are in your element doing that thing, people will be drawn to you. So the only challenge is try to make it something that not only other dudes just like you are into. Because if you choose something that only dudes just like you are into, you know, unless you're attracted to other dudes just like you, you're not you're not going to be able to translate that into a a healthy dating life or exciting dating life.
Dan:What what you can do though is practice taking those feelings of confidence when you are doing those things, whether it's talking about quantum mechanics or or you know, pickleball, whatever that is. Right. And and try to bring some of those feelings to those new situations that you're trying to become competent at. And that will kind of help you get over that hump of resistance to going out and doing and trying those new things. And I've done that in the past and it's it's worked out pretty well. The other thing that's interesting about this section was he was talking about how we can kind of fake our body language for confidence, but we can't fake our voices. And that's nothing I I've never heard that before. He said even trained actors, when they're nervous, tend to speak a little bit more quickly, they shake their voice a little bit. That's something that can't be fake, whereas body language can be a little bit more.
Charles:Yeah, you can learn the right body language, but yeah, that's true.
Dan:I never heard that before. You, I mean, you do a lot of voice work. Uh have you have you heard anything of that before? Or is it just more like uh this is the way you want to come across and you've been trained to be clear and slow and confident and the thing I would say is that you you know, like any, I mean, auditions are essentially interviews, and interviews are essentially auditions.
Charles:And if you walk into an interview with the attitude of this this job or even a date, this is my last hope. If this doesn't work out for me, I'm done. There's no way to hide that. It's gonna come through your body language, your voice, just the vibe you give off, all the you know, micro expressions. If if you're walking into a situation with the feeling of this could be my last chance, if this doesn't work out for me, I'm done. Yeah, then you're going to put off a uh this is a this is a human in crisis, not a human in leadership vibe that's gonna turn people off and make them pick somebody else over you. And so, and the only way that you can walk into those rooms for auditions or dates or interviews, feeling confidence, feeling real confidence is by believing, hey, I I'd like this, but if it doesn't work out, I'll be okay and I'll I'll figure out something else. Um, somebody gave me this opportunity, I'll get another opportunity.
Dan:Yeah, and I think the other piece of this is realizing that's closer for the most part, 99% of the time, to what reality is, is you will be okay. This isn't your last shot. And where I feel a lot of us just end up blowing it and sabotaging ourselves is when we are imagining situations that are further from reality than they actually are.
Charles:Yeah. I mean, if you walk if you walk into a job interview and your nervous system is telling you you're a the squid game, then yeah, you're going to act like somebody who's in the squid game, not somebody who's just interested in finding out if this might be a good match for you. If this might be a place where you can, you know, blossom professionally. Right. And that's the vibe that hiring managers want. They want you coming in there saying, like, hmm, I wonder if this would be a good match, if we'd be able to work well together, if I'd be the kind of employee they're looking for, if they'd be the kind of boss that I'm looking for. But yeah, if if your nervous system is telling you this is life or death, then you're gonna act like you're in a life or death situation. And the other people who are a little closer to reality who realize this isn't life or death, they're gonna be put off by you. And it's gonna be like, oh, what's it?
Dan:I can't trust right. I can't trust. Yeah, I can't I can't put my trust in them that they're gonna be on the same page with me when they can't even recognize reality for reality.
Charles:Yeah. You know, so that's yeah, and same with a date when you're when you're meeting, you know, that gal for the first time for a coffee or a drink that you met on some dating app, if you walk into it with the vibe of, oh my gosh, she's so pretty, I'll never have another chance to talk to a pretty girl like this, then you're not gonna be fun to be around and you're not gonna inspire the feelings in her that she's hoping to experience when she agrees to go out on a date with you.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:I mean, when a girl says yes to going on, she expects she wants to go have a good time. And if she's sitting next to a ball of neuroticism, she's not gonna be able to feel good because she it's gonna be clear that you're not feeling good.
Dan:Mm-hmm.
Charles:So, unless you're both unhealthy in the same way, and then maybe she'll enjoy that, but you're not gonna have a great relationship. So, um yeah, I liked what he had to say about that. Uh, he gets a little bit into you know the the value in recognizing your dark side and seeing the things in you that uh may not be the most healthy, like narcissism, envy, aggression, irrationality. And he makes a good case to say, listen, if you and this is something we were talking the other night about uh some of the patterns of codependent people, and one of the one of the ways that codependent people try to control the world and the people around them is by seeing themselves as only virtuous. Like I only have good qualities, I have no bad qualities, and that gives you sort of sort of gives you the moral authority that it takes to say, okay, all these other people that I, you know, that have all their problems that I love or live with or associate with, they need me to swoop it and take care of them because they can't take care of themselves. So there is uh sort of a haughtiness to codependence that you don't usually associate with it. When you hear about codependence, yeah, it's oh, it's the poor wife living with the drug abusive husband. Right. But there is a portion of that of I have to take care of him. He can't take care of himself, so I have to sweep it and take care of him for him.
Dan:And I think you mentioned it, it is a form of narcissism. Yeah. And and he mentions it in the video too, was that everybody has a little bit of narcissism in them.
Charles:Yes.
Dan:And where a lot of us run into issues is when you don't recognize that we have that. Exactly.
Charles:When you deny those darker aspects of yourself, yeah, yeah.
Dan:And uh that was enlightening for me because he went into the way he framed it, yeah, it made sense to me, but I'd never heard it that way before. And I'm like, oh, I sort of look at myself, I'm a little bit like, okay, I can see where it is here and where it is there and stuff. And I I felt I felt a little bit better being aware of it now.
Charles:Yeah, I I did I did too. And and I did like the way that he said where you know, when when you're a kid and you don't get your need met in the moment, um then that sort of trains you. And so then you take that into adulthood. And when you're an adult and you don't get a need met from, you know, a boss, a partner, or a friend, whatever, the way it's supposed to work is you're a you're supposed to be able to retreat into yourself a little bit and say, okay, well, they didn't meet my needs, but I have the ability to meet my own needs. It's the self-soothing type of situation, okay. Where the clinical narcissist, the person with n narcissistic personality disorder, there is nothing inside for them to retreat into to soothe themselves. There's just nothing there because their parents didn't fill that tank for them when they were very little, sometimes like less than a year old. They were neglected, abandoned, not treated that way. And so that internal tank of being able to soothe yourself and meet your own needs, it just isn't there. So what do they do? Well, they decide, okay, how can I lash out in anger, manipulation, gaslighting, uh, stonewalling? What are the tools that I I got no tools inside. So what are the tools I can use to get what I need from the people around me outside in? And uh, yeah, that was it was interesting how he how he framed that. But it is better for us to say, okay, no, I I do have a tendency where I can get selfish, I can get aggressive when when people refuse to meet my needs. I I don't go about meeting my own needs in the perfect, most healthy way. So what are the darker tendencies that I might have so I can be on the lookout for them and I can kind of keep them in check and not just, you know, hand steering wheel to him and say, all right, bad Charles be bad Charles. He's gonna get what he needs from people no matter what.
Dan:Did he touch on ways to remedy that as an adult? And I'm because I'm going through my mind now thinking about it, and I don't think he did, but I thought though, he did touch on trying to be productive and putting yourself out there so you can build competence in a lot of areas, which will bring you in some confidence. But um now that I'm thinking about it, that might not be enough in those situations to be really confident in other areas to provide value. So you can kind of rely back on, oh, hey, I am uh, you know, a a good person. I've got val inherent value. But now that I'm thinking about it, it's just like, well, then but your value is kind of tied to doing these things, and that's I don't know if that's really the same thing. What are your thoughts about that?
Charles:Yeah, I think uh as far as I know, the the only cure that I have seen for um any any issues that are um sort of presenting themselves as a consequence of a lack of self-esteem is you've got it you've got to do hard things for yourself. Okay, you can teach yourself the lesson that you're worth doing hard things for. And whether that is getting into therapy, getting into a recovery group, getting your fitness under control, getting your diet under control, getting your career under control, you've got to come up with a plan to do some of those things that are difficult. Yeah. So that when you see yourself doing your doing those things for yourself, you'll get the message, whether you want to or not, of I'm worth doing difficult things for. Yeah. Okay. And that's the only way to do it from inside. Okay. Because what uh the uh the opposite that happens when you decide to just, you know, live with your codependence and you make other people the source for your self-esteem, uh, them esteem as I call it. Interesting. It's going to be, well, this other person is willing to sacrifice and do all these things for me. Instead of say, oh, well, that must mean I'm a worthy person. Instead of that, what you do is, no, they there must be something wrong with them. And they're willing to invest all this time and effort in me, then they've got a problem. I'm I'm still worthless, and I'm not going to be convinced that I'm not worthless. So therefore, I gotta take them down off their pedestal and decide if they're willing to sacrifice for me, if they're willing to invest in me, there must be something wrong with them. Oh that's rough. Yeah. And and that's that is the the route that most people struggling with codependence take. It is I'm gonna find somebody else to make me feel valuable. Yeah. And then when you find them and they are willing to invest in you to make you feel valuable, your reaction to that is there must be something wrong with them. Because there is no shortcut for the doing hard things for yourself version of it, which seems to be the only thing that works. So yeah, it's it is it is quite the it's quite the unpleasant carousel to find yourself stuck on. Oh man. Hell. Um, all right. He does talk about um masks, roles, and authenticity. And you know, there there is something to be said for we are all we all are going to play a role, and we all are going to at least at some level act the way we think we need to act in situations. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah. I mean, you're gonna show up for your job and act like what you think a good enough employee to not get fired has to act like, at the very least. Now, ideally, you're in a job that you feel passionate about, and what you produce in that job is something you can feel good about, and and that can be its own reward, as well as the money that they pay you. But sometimes, you know, when, especially when you're younger and you're just having to do the jobs you have to do because you have to do them, it's gonna be a little bit of, okay, I I need to show up and act like somebody who cares about this job more than they actually do, because that's what's expected of me, and I need this job. And that's okay. I don't think that's something that you need to feel unethical or guilty over.
Dan:Yeah, he made a great point that it was a little bit more common to have that external public-facing role when you're outside the house and when you come home to your family, you have a different type of role that you play. Yeah. And I agree with them in terms of we as a society are trying to kind of be that same person at home and in the public, and just feeling like, hey, I need to be myself at all times, and are less willing to take on a different type of role or identity at work, at church, at home, whatever that might be, and be unokay with it. Like I feel like we've gotten to the point of where we're like, no, we we need to be ourselves all the time. And then we end up struggling because those it's we're trying to, you know, fit a square peg into a round hole sometimes, right? You can't and and or you feel like you're there's something wrong with either the job or with yourself because you're trying to maintain this this same self throughout all of these different situations, and that might not suit you the best, and might not suit that situation the best either. And I like that he said it's okay to have those different types of identity, and there's nothing there's nothing wrong with it's uh it's I mean to me, you know, it is a little tough to swallow at the same time because it's like, all right, are you faking it? And and but are you really hurting anybody if you are faking that you enjoy that job to get that job and fulfill those obligations? I I you know, I I don't think so.
Charles:Yeah, I I agree. I think that uh it's just expected that as humans we have to wear different hats and those hats are going to look different from each other. I think that's okay. Um the key is to just maintain honesty while you do it and not not put out a fake identity, just be like, hey, listen, when I when I show up to work, I'm somebody who does the job that's expected of them, right? And I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability, and I'm not gonna grumble about it. And you'll probably come across looking like a pretty good employee if if you do that. Yeah. Um the part where you actually enjoy it and you're happy about it and fulfilled by it, that usually happens later in your career. And sometimes, you know, in many careers, it kind of peaks when you're at a certain age, and then after that, you're kind of just maybe not getting as much out of it anymore, but you still find yourself doing it. And that's why a lot of people, when they get to their 40s or 50s, decide, I think it's ready to do something I'm ready to do something new, try something else.
Dan:Yeah. I actually was listening to Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic. Uh, once what do you think? Really good. It's good. Really good. And it's not as woo-woo as you were making it, or or other people have made it sound to me. Yeah. Not at all. Not at all. And a lot of really like good practical advice. And one of them was you can do your creative love and not necessarily make that your job. Like you can do that on the side, and you don't have to make that your career that you make money from. And she said a lot of people that she knew that made that creative idea generate money, required to generate money to replace their job, ruin that creativity and ruin that experience in that because of all the pressure of having to make money. And so now you start limiting things and changing things instead of just being open to enjoying that creative pursuit. So that was enlightening for me with you know, all the things that I've been sure, you know, struggling with whatever. And it's just like, okay, yeah, you can have something that makes money, and then you can have something that that fulfills you. And it kind of goes to what we've been talking about with having a partner, too, is you can have multiple people in your life, or ideally, you have multiple people in your life who fulfill different needs, and you don't put all of those responsibilities on your your significant other. Yeah. Which which has has ruined relationships for me in the past.
Charles:Yeah. And uh speaking of relationships, I do want to just touch briefly on what he said about dating. And uh, I wasn't completely clear on on his message. I I did feel like he talked a little bit about um investing in dating. And I think one of the examples was, you know, don't show up to a date with a coupon trying to pay a little bit of money at the restaurant. Oh my gosh. But uh yeah, when I was listened to it, I thought, okay, this could be misinterpreted as, you know, don't be a cheap date, be be willing to spend money on your dates, but it really is you don't have to spend much money to have a good date with somebody, whether it's a first date or an ongoing date with your partner. You just have to invest in making it an experience that is going to be worth remembering. And and I had the thought on the driveover today. We went out to uh dinner on last Friday, went to that sushi place. That was great. Um, what was it, sushi something? What was it? Sushi Saint.
Dan:Yes.
Charles:Memory. It was in an interesting area, and the presentation was very interesting. I I liked it. I thought it was a good restaurant. And I did the whole dinner with my phone in the car. Which uh thank you. Thank you for reminding me about it. Yeah. I sat down with my phone. I forgot that.
Dan:It didn't look like you struggled at all.
Charles:I didn't. Yeah. No, it wasn't. I mean, you're welcome.
Dan:I was just at entertaining.
Charles:You were great, you were great company. And our waitress was nice too. But uh yeah, most I was mostly talking to you, not her. The um were you the thing that occurred to me though was you know, I've I've taken partners on at some pretty fancy dates to some pretty fancy places, and if I were to pick up the phone and call all of them to do a survey Don't worry, ladies, if you're listening, I'm not going to. If I were to, I would bet every single one of them. If it was a choice of I'm going to make some sandwiches and we're going to put a blanket down and just eat some dinner at a park, and I'm going to leave my phone in the car, or I'm going to take you to Cadence or Victorian Albert's. But every time I get a notification, I'm going to pull my phone out of my pocket and see if it's something important. I am quite sure that every single one of them would say, I would rather have the picnic in the park with your phone in the car than the fancy meal at the fancy restaurant where every time your phone vibrates, you're popping it out to see what it's about.
Dan:Mm-hmm.
Charles:Yeah. And it is a little embarrassing to come to that conclusion at 47 years old. It's it's frankly ridiculous that I'm even having to struggle with that at this age. At least it feels that way. But, you know, I mean, part of what I I learned from that uh um that book, All the Way of the River, by Elizabeth Gilbert was her ability to look at her life and the life of her partner and be able to look back and say, listen, we we behaved exactly the way that we had to behave based on the tools we had and the circumstances we were in. And so there's no use in getting mad at old you or the old version of your partner because everybody is just doing their best with what they have available to them. And if you wound back the clock of the universe where every neuron in your brain and every atom was back in the same place, you couldn't have done anything different. Yeah. You would have had everything would have gone the same way that it went because that's the way that it had to go. Yeah. And the grace that she's willing to give, willing and able to give herself and her now deceased partner to be able to look back and say, look, we we did what we could do based on just like the thing about knowledge and hindsight is you don't get to apply today's knowledge to what happened 20 years ago. It just doesn't work that way. Correct. Yeah, you only have today's knowledge today because of the stuff you went through 20 years ago.
Dan:So what I've recently discovered is you can still use those that that those thoughts and those feelings of upset or being disappointed with your past self to impact your future.
Charles:To impact your present and your future. Right.
Dan:To help you get over that hump of discomfort from leaving the phone in the car.
Charles:Right. I'm not going to, yeah. I'm I am not I am never going to spend another meal with somebody I care about distracted by what's going on on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or CNN.com or any of that stuff. It's just too, you know, I am there there are fewer years ahead than there are behind at this point. And spending dates or dinners with friends with glued to my phone, I I don't have I don't have enough time left to do that. Yeah. So that's great. What's the thing about it too? Please remind me. Yeah. Because I'm going to do my best to remember to leave it in the car. I may even put a post-it in my car that says Okay. Yep. If you're about to see, if you're going to see somebody you care about, leave the phone here. Yeah. So that I remember to do it. But yeah, definitely remind me. You and I have a uh reservation in a couple weeks that I'm really excited about, and uh I am not going to ruin it by bringing my phone too.
Dan:I'll bring an extra one for you at the table.
Charles:Just bring a pacifier that's been painted to look like an iPhone, and I'll just put it into my mouth and suck on it whenever I feel like I need to uh get my phone out of my pocket. All right, thanks very much, Dan. We'll do another one of these next week, and hopefully it'll be one we both find a little bit more compelling. Sounds good. All right, bye. That's gonna do it for this episode of the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. If this conversation sparks something for you, share the episode with a friend who would appreciate it. New episodes drop just about every single week, so make sure you're following Mindfully Masculine wherever you get your podcasts. As always, you can find full audio and video episodes at mindfullymasculine.com. Thanks for listening to the whole episode. We appreciate it, and we'll be back next time.
.jpg)