Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Charles and Dan are just two guys talking about relationships, masculinity, and authenticity. Join them as they discuss books and media, as well as their (sometimes messy) personal stories, to encourage men to join the fight for their mental, physical, and emotional health--because a world of healthy, resilient men is a thriving and more secure world for everyone.
Mindfully Masculine: Personal Growth and Mental Health for Men
Awareness, Honesty, and the Work of Being Yourself
In this episode, Charles and Dan unpack one of their favorite conversations from The Diary of a CEO — Steven Bartlett’s interview with Simon Sinek.
They explore what it really means to “find your why,” why self-awareness beats self-improvement, and how honesty, feedback, and integrity all connect to a deeper sense of fulfillment that lasts longer than success or achievement ever could.
From the power of vulnerability to the courage of truth-telling, this episode dives into the difference between looking successful and actually feeling aligned with your purpose.
Watch the original Diary of a CEO conversation with Simon Sinek here:
👉 https://youtu.be/Q-zuTZuYeCg?si=r0eb40OnB4kyQJYW
Key Topics Discussed
• Why rediscovering your “why” matters more than chasing results
• The difference between self-awareness and self-improvement
• What the 48-hour honesty challenge reveals about integrity
• Why vulnerability means direct honesty, not public performance
• How feedback builds self-knowledge and better relationships
• Why fulfillment comes from service, not status
Takeaways for Listeners
- Ask yourself why you want what you want — and keep asking until you hit something real.
- Try the 48-hour honesty challenge: no white lies, no polite untruths.
- Seek feedback from people who see you clearly — then say “thank you” and nothing else.
- Reconnect your goals to purpose, not just performance metrics.
You can find all of our episodes, along with anything new we’re creating and sharing, at MindfullyMasculine.com
There there is no bravery unless unless you're willing to put yourself at risk, because otherwise you're just spending all your time doing the things you know you can do and and doing the things and and being the person in front of people that you know they want you to be. And it's only when you take the risk of of doing the new thing or being the new version of yourself that that you can experience a feeling of, oh, I was brave. Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. This is Charles. Uh quick note before we start, this episode's coming out a few hours later than usual because I'm editing it right now, Monday morning, October 27th, around 1030 Eastern time. Uh, thanks for your patience. Today, Dan and I are diving into one of our favorite conversations from the diary of a CEO, Stephen Bartlett's interview with Simon Sinek. We have both respected Simon's work for years, but this talk reminded us why it is not just about leadership or motivation, it's about rediscovering your purpose when success alone stops feeling like enough. We'll unpack what it means to find your why, why self-awareness beats self-improvement, and how honesty, feedback, and integrity connect to a deeper sense of fulfillment, the kind that actually lasts. You can find all of our audio and video episodes along with anything new we're creating and sharing at mindfullymasculine.com. Thanks and enjoy. Good morning, Charles. Hello, Dan. How are you?
Dan:I am doing great.
Charles:Excellent. I am excited to uh have this conversation because we did another viewing of an episode of the Diary of a CEO. This one with Simon Sinek, who's one of my favorite people to listen to or read or just watch.
Dan:He was so good on this interview.
Charles:He's good in every interview. I mean, the guy is He said something really interesting at the end of it that uh I wanted to see if you picked up on. When he's talking about his mission, so he what do we even call? I mean, he's certainly an author, he is certainly a speaker, a consultant. What is it that you would say that he does?
Dan:He I don't know how to describe it. Maybe modern day philosopher.
Charles:Yeah, I think I think there's some of that.
Dan:Where it's not just talking, but yeah. I feel based on what he was saying, and the focus of a lot of his content is really driving action.
Charles:Yeah, I think uh I mean he works with organizations, certainly, individuals perhaps, to kind of help them figure out what it is that they want and how to get that. And but not just by saying, What do you want? Oh, I want to increase profits. Well, okay, here's how you increase profits. No, it's more like, why do you want to increase pro you know, it is really he gets to the the nitty-gritty of what it is that is is motivating people. And um what was the first book that uh I read by him? It wasn't start with why? It was start with why. Okay, yeah, it was start with why. And yeah, the the really interesting exercise. But anyway, the thing he said was part of what his mission is to do, he wants to dismantle everything that Jack Welch taught the wheelchair.
Dan:I heard that too, yeah. And I wanted to be like, oh my god, I want to I want to get more in-depth in terms of the specifics that Jack Welch was because maybe you know that I but I was just like, I know Jack Welch is old school, but I just I wanted to dig in a little bit and go, okay, what are his core tenants so I can see, you know, and and go and look at what the opposite of that would be.
Charles:Yeah, I I worked for him briefly. I was a consultant on a project at GE Capital when Jack Welch was a CEO. Oh wow. It was a Y2K project. Okay. So this is back in 99. And uh Yeah, I was on uh glad it wasn't in 2001. And that would have been that would have been very inefficient, right? Guys, I think uh I think we'll be okay. Uh yeah, it was in 99, it was right right before, and uh I mean he definitely had a reputation around GE for, you know, being like this bigger than life personality. But yeah, I don't know exactly what it is. I I imagine that it was probably something about the way that he got what he needed out of people that Simon Sinek finds unappealing.
Dan:Yeah. I think maybe it's the profit over ethics conversation that they dug into in this, that that he was basically maybe that has something to do with it.
Charles:Yeah, and and I I wasn't exposed to any of that directly where you know anybody was flat out saying we care about profit more than we care about ethics, but you know, why would you say that? You wouldn't say that out loud. You would say you would say that with the way that you design your culture. You wouldn't say it by just telling people, yeah, it's fine to lie, it's fine to cheat, it's fine to you. No, nobody says that because there's a social cost to that. But there are plenty of organizations, both uh corporate and and non or profit-driven and non-that would not say, you know, we value this one particular goal over our ethics, but when you see how they behave, they certainly act that way. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting, though, that he's willing to take on somebody that big. I mean, you know, in the legacy of Jack Welch, which, you know, if you're a 30 Rock fan, you know, uh Alec Baldwin's character, Jack Donegie, was based on and very referential. And Jack Welch is even in some episodes of 30 Rock. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, where you know, because I know that's what we were. Yeah, GE owned NBC until it was sold to Comcast. He was seen as somewhat of a guru when it came to business. And it's just great that you know Simon Sinek is willing to say, no, everything this guy told you is wrong. And I I really respect that level of disagreeableness when somebody's willing to stand out there and say, Okay, I'm going to put my professional reputation on the line to say this guy that everybody thinks was right, he was actually wrong. Like that excites me when people are willing to do that. I love that. Um, they start out the conversation, and you could tell Stephen Bartlett was very familiar with Simon and Simon's work and had a lot of reverence for Simon's work. And they basically talked about whatever your why is for why you're in business, why you're in the relationships that you're in, why why you think you're in the world is something that you're going to form by, I think you said your early teens. And so some of those core motivations for who you are, which is one of the things I love about the uh and I follow so many accounts on Instagram about Enneagrams. Because the primary thing about your Enneagram is what motivates you. It's not like the uh Myers Brig or your astrology sign or anything like that. It's actually like what are the things that on a daily, even minute by minute basis make you do the things that you choose to do. And that's why I I love the Enneagram and I love how how much it is just spot on. You know, every meme I see about an 8W7, it's like, yeah, that's me, that's me. Every time. Yeah. Um and for the most part, you know, there's there's some of that with um with my Myers Brig type, which uh I took it again recently, and I have absolutely switched from an ENTJ to an ENTP. So I am more of a perceiver than a judger now. Okay. Than I was before. Well, it's good. I think I don't think either of them's no, I mean one's not necessarily better or worse than the other. P is always better than J. Come on. Peanut butter, well, it's not a peanut butter jelly. Yeah, absolutely right. But anyway, let's let's just kind of hit some of the things that stood out to us because this was a very free-flowing conversation. I would say it was not as structured as the one we just talked about with sleep. It was much more of a discussion where you could tell they were both just sort of hitting the points that were important or interesting to them. Yeah. Which is a great conversation to listen to. I mean, I think the one we did on sleep and the one we did on body language and and communication, that was much more regimented, where Simon was way more relaxed than either of those two going into you know, sitting at this table with Steven, and they just had a great conversation.
Dan:Yeah, I mean, those other ones were full of facts as well. There was like hard data behind those other two. This one, not so much. It was more just kind of perspective and philosophy, I felt, but it was definitely more interesting to me.
Charles:Yeah. What what what jumped out at you? What what are some of your notes that you had about it?
Dan:Really, that just the way he free it was just it's in. I already kind of came to this conclusion that most of us are motivated the most by having external factors, that we're motivated by trying to do something for somebody else. And and that's where we get our greatest sense of fulfillment. And you can see that in so many successful people in in the world where they get to a point in their life and they start giving back in massive in massive ways, not just money, but also with education and and tutoring and mentoring, things like that. But just the way that they came in Simon explained why that is, it just was insightful to me. Where he's like, you know, people they have they have children, and is it hard? Yes. Is there lots of sacrifices? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes. And he's like, everybody that they they cut end up coming to that conclusion. And he did a great job comparing that to Olympic athletes or athletes who were like who were really high performing, and they get to the the the goal that they were after, and they immediately or very quickly afterwards fall into some sort of depression, or they are just a pet. It's just there's like nothing left for them. And he pointed out that a lot of times when these athletes are, you know, training their asses off and they're missing big important events in life like birthdays and parties and socializing and and connecting with the world, that they're very selfish goals, but they're presented as, oh, I want to win the Olympics for America, or I want to, you know, it's uh the the athletes who are really focused on um themselves uh for winning that goal are the ones who suffer the most because at the end of that, they've got nothing left. They don't have a big strong network of friends. It's the relationships they have in their lives are how are you able to get me to my goal? So if you're a coach or if you are a friend or a family member, it's I'm so focused on achieving this big thing. Uh, you know, how are you fitting that into my life? And and because of that, they don't have these strong friendships. And at the end, there's really they look around, there's nothing left. And he did compare that to somebody else, it was like I think a professional football player who came from really humble beginnings and he realized what his motivation was. He wanted a bigger platform to be able to give back and help more. And that's what he used his sports career for. And because of that, it he didn't suffer that same fate of running into some sort of you know depression or anxiety when he actually became famous and and achieved that goal. And just thinking through why we do the things that we do and really what motivates us and and gets us through those difficult obstacles really just those examples really hit home for me and made me realize okay, yeah, that's why it's so important to find something bigger than yourself to boost yourself up when you don't feel like doing the difficult things for the goal that you're trying to achieve.
Charles:Yeah, I'm reminded of uh, you know, I I always think about when the talk gets to professional athletes, I think back to Brett Favre and his two, I believe it was two, retirement press conferences, where, you know, Brett Favre was a fairly visible NFL player. Um, I mean, he was a star quarterback of the Packers for a long time. And they won Super Bowls and you know, they won playoffs, and I never saw him talking to the press about his family life, the things he accomplished while he was with the team. It never displayed the same emotion as when it was I don't get to play this game anymore, and now I'm going to cry like a baby in front of these cameras. And it just, and I'm not shaming any guy for crying or crying in public or anything like that. It's just the contrast of the way he talked about either his team accomplishments or his personal accomplishments versus I'm sad that I don't get to I don't get to be the star anymore. And then he retires, then he comes back, then he retires again and turned on the waterworks again. And then after that, you know, he's been, it seems like he engaged in some unethical business practices. He was sexting, you know, sending unsolicited nude pictures to women, and it's like, okay, this everything I'm learning about this guy says that he's in it for him and not really anything else. It's it's distasteful to me. It it's like uh and and I can't imagine that that is a very content or fulfilling life to live either, when when you're in it for you and you're all about it for you, or at least I think the fact that it comes across that way isn't an accident. Yeah, that's not just us, you know, reading into it. I think that's yeah, seems like the kind of guy he is.
Dan:I think it it gets worse if you start hurting other people in the process of serving yourself. Serving yourself.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:That's where it really starts to underscore and highlight an issue.
Charles:Yeah, there are a couple of different takes that he had on things that uh in this interview that really resonated with me. One was he doesn't love the idea or the phrase of self-improvement. He's like, focus more on self-awareness. And if you focus on self-awareness, then the deficiencies that you find in yourself, if you are if you care about them and and if you are focused on what it is that you want out of life, you will naturally put in the work to solve those deficiencies. But you're not going if you're if you're only focused on self-improvement and not about and not on self-awareness, you're never gonna see those flaws in yourself and put in the time to work on them.
Dan:What was interesting when he was talking about that was his his own example of how he's been a told was he's an amazing listener to everybody, but then when it came to his family, it's like he was almost a different person.
Charles:His girlfriend called him out on it. And yeah, you're you're not a good listener.
Dan:Yeah, yeah. And and it's I can see how that easily happens because if you are told one thing throughout most of your life, then then that that that you be it becomes a blind spot. It's just like, oh yeah, I'm I'm just a good listener, right? And and so then I think you spend less time, and when I say you, people in general will spend, I'm guilty of this too, less time evaluating yourself in that area because oh, you're good, you've got that covered. Like that's not an obvious blind spot or something that I need to work on, but it's very contextual, it's very you know situational in terms of uh everything that we do. So, yeah, in one and I'm I I same for myself, absolutely. I feel looking, you know, looking through that lens, the first thing I thought of is when am when am I a shitty listener? And it's like, oh yeah, probably with family, but sometimes with friends, probably, yeah, yeah. But with strangers, like and I'm I agree with that. I think.
Charles:So, you know, I mean, you know. I mean, I I think of you as a great listener. I've I think I've never felt like every time I've been talking to you about especially about something that I find important, I find you to be extremely engaged. So if anybody disagrees with that, they're lying to you. No, I no, I'm just telling you from my experience. Right, you know.
Dan:But I yeah, so I was just like, wow, that that so that goes back to support the self-awareness, because if you become aware of that, you will most likely want to improve.
Charles:Yeah, and that that's the in that area, the very hard thing where where it turns to something you might need to change about yourself. This one, this one hit me hard. We grow by inviting feedback, not by reading books. Oh man, I wish it was by reading books because I love reading books. And um, I mean that's that's something I've I've learned in my men's group and and in some of the information that has come to me through the men's group, either through stuff I've read or conversations I've had. Insight is cheap. It's easy to read a book that tells you what your problem is. What's difficult is to actually do the work to resolve that or or modify what it is that's causing you to have that difficulty. But yeah, I can I can read a book all about me and why people like me struggle with things or what they struggle with, but when it comes to actually changing it, yeah, it's usually not in the in the pages of a book. If it could be solved by a book, it would have been solved already, right?
Dan:Yeah. I listen, I'm I'm I'm right there with you. Uh what's interesting is this is the second time I've heard the technique that he mentioned for getting that feedback. The first one was from a guy who wrote a book called Embrace the Suck. Uh and I think he was from uh I think he was like a high-level military. Um, but basically the feedback was you should you you ask them what they thought. Uh and the you you first of all you have to pick the proper people to give you the feedback. Right. But then when they give it to you, the only thing you're allowed to say is thank you. The only uh and and and that's that's it. And you can't there's no feedback, there's no back and forth that goes, you know, that that you're giving the other person that's giving you that feedback. Right. All you get to say is thank you. That's it. Yeah. So yeah, you want to really just just uh encourage people to have those, and that's it's also very difficult to get people to be completely honest and to give you that brutal feedback that you you need. And so it sounded like these were things that he's brought into organizations that he's worked with where they've they've you know it's been a little bit formal because he says it's sometimes it could be a little difficult when you've got senior managers and the people who report to them giving them that feedback. It's it's so I I thought that is uh you know that is something really valuable to try to you know get it, get a team of people around you to give you that feedback.
Charles:Yeah, and and part of that is uh yeah, you've got to have the people, you've got to cultivate the relationships of people you can trust to put yourself in that position. And that that leads me to uh the next point I have in my notes, which is vulnerability. And uh he mentioned the the trend of I guess there was a TikTok thing going around where you would record yourself talking about your last relationship and how you failed the other person. And then, you know, all these people were sharing it with you know the same hashtag and they're crying and saying, you know, what they did wrong. He's like, that's not vulnerability. Vulnerability is having that conversation in a quiet room with the one person that you hurt and then letting them react to it. Yeah. React vulnerability is not is not broadcasting it on social media and considering it.
Dan:And you're doing and you're doing in a room by yourself. Right. That's the thing. You just that's not being vulnerable.
Charles:Yeah, that uh that reminded me of of another line that I heard in uh in Strong Ground by uh by Brene Brown, which I mentioned on our last podcast. I'm listening to the audiobook right now as I go for my walks. One of the things she says is everybody wants to be brave, but nobody wants to be vulnerable. And you can't be brave without vulnerability. And it's like, yeah, that oof She's right. I mean, yeah, there there is no bravery unless unless you're willing to put yourself at risk because otherwise you're just spending all your time doing the things you know you can do and and doing the things in and being the person in front of people that you know they want you to be. And it's only when you take the risk of of doing the new thing or being the new version of yourself that that you can experience a feeling of, oh, I was brave. I didn't know that it's a thing where people will quit a job before they'll ask their boss for a raise. Yeah. I did not know that either. And that's I can I can see that with some of the younger people I know. Like, yeah, that that wouldn't surprise me that they would rather just quit the job and take a job somewhere else than, you know, say, hey, I'm working really hard, I think I'm doing well, I'd like a little more money.
Dan:I mean, I know that's an uncomfortable conversation, and it was when I had it with my bosses that, you know, to I mean, I guess if you're young enough and you're not starving, it's might be easier to take that risk, go, I'll get a job somewhere else, than to get uncomfortable, especially if you have no practice getting uncomfortable with anything.
Charles:Right. And that's and you mentioned, you know, one of the effects that we've had with uh with going through COVID was you know, there are a lot of people that realized that the unknown and the uncertainty and and not having a work situation that you could count on everything's gonna be okay. He's like, well, most of us made it through and we were okay. And so now it's like a lot of people no longer have the tolerance. Well, I gotta stay miserable in this job because you know, who knows what could happen if I lose my job or I jeopardize my job by, you know, like, no, we we we all kind of learned, eh, we we might be okay. We might be able to deal with some negative work situations and still keep a roof over our head and food in our belly. So now maybe that job that I thought I had to stay in, even though I was miserable, maybe I don't have to stay in it. Maybe I can quit it and you know, have a little bit of a gap before I find the next one and and I'll be okay. Yeah. And I think that's good. I think this this idea of you have to stay at a job you hate because, oh no, what if? It's like, yeah, you'll survive. Yep. You'll you'll be okay, you'll figure something out. You figured something out last time, you'll figure something out this time as well. But uh, yeah, it's interesting. I you know, one of the things we we've talked about as a society in in the uh when it comes to like the uh the gender wage gap and how women, you know, make X number of cents on the dollar compared to men, and a lot of that has to do with career choice, and it also has to do with temperament when it comes to negotiating and asking for what you deserve at your job and what have we what have we taught men is okay to say, what have we taught women is okay to say. And yeah, I would say, you know, having those difficult conversations where you're willing to go into a boss's office and say, hey, I think I think I deserve to make some more money. I don't really feel a lot of anxiety about that. In my case, you know, I haven't I haven't had that kind of a job in a long time. So basically I just tell my clients, hey, I'm raising my rates, here's what the new rates are. And I've never I've not lost a single client over that. And I feel okay doing that because it doesn't feel risky to me. Where I don't know if I was a young man in my 20s or a young woman in my twenties, 30s, or 40s, and I've been kind of conditioned like, oh no, when you when you ask for what you need, the answer you get is no. You get a door slammed in your face. Then I would probably feel a lot different about initiating those conversations than I do.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:But as a combination of some of the experiences I had as a child and as a younger professional, I just don't I don't feel that lack of I I have that message. That message has been reinforced for me, like ask for what you want, and you'll get a yes, you'll get a no, but either way you'll be okay. And so I'm okay doing that. Where the uncomfortable conversations in business or in my personal life, they don't scare me as much because I have been trained to learn though you have to ask for that or you definitely won't get it.
Dan:Yeah.
Charles:And so I I'm not scared of those.
Dan:That's true. You know what's really interesting? I just had a similar conversation with the woman who cuts my hair yesterday. Yeah. Where she was saying, so she's a manager and she goes to these conferences where there's a whole bunch of other managers that work for a fran a haircutting franchise, and there's one owner that owns most of the most of these franchise locations in Florida. And she doesn't sound like she's some horrible, evil, angry person. She sounds pretty cool. My hairdresser was saying was that she'll go to these stores, she's sent around to these stores to fix problems, and she'll go in there, and they will be missing like critical supplies to be able to do these haircuts, like towels or or or the towels need to be replaced, or you know, they need they need razors or or scissors or whatever. And the manager is too scared to call the owner and say, We need these things. We need these things. And I was like, Well, why are they selling them off the back of a truck? Are these are these things disappearing? Like, is she gonna get drunk? No, these are just normal wear and tear. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? And I'm like, oh, they I'm like, what are they just you know, are they really young managers or like in their 20s? She's like, No, they're in their 30s and 40s.
Charles:They're mostly women though, right? Oh, they're all women. They're all women.
Dan:And I was just like, but the owner, the owner's also a woman.
Charles:Still.
Dan:But but I was just like, I was absolutely amazing. I'm like, wait a minute, and these aren't just regular science, these are managers, people who are in charge of the store, of making sure the store is profitable, getting everything done. They're too c scared to call the owner and say they need supply refills. I was just like, holy cow, just like, and she's like, Yeah, all of them. And there was like 20 or 30 if she's talking about.
Charles:Yeah, I would say I I mean it blew my mind. I listen, I know a lot of women that have difficulty asking for what they need, and I don't think that's just biological. I mean, that might, you know, being being a woman biologically maybe part of it, but I think also the message we send to people in society of certain groups, I mean, you know, I've never been called, to my face at least, bossy or pushy. But every woman I know that's, you know, mid-management and on up has been referred to as bossy, pushy, or bitchy. Yeah. Nobody's ever called me bossy, pushy, or bitchy. I've never even heard it secondhand that Charles is pushy, Charles is ever. Yeah. And I I think, you know, listen, we're we're used to to doing things and thinking about things the way that we're used to doing things and thinking about them. And, you know, again, you you either get the message growing up, there there's a few messages you can get. You can get the message of, hey, your needs are important, so when you ask for your needs to be met, they're going to be met. That's one way. The other is, hey, your needs are not important. So when you ask for your needs to be met, you're going to be ignored and your needs are not going to get met. Or, and I think that's the message that a lot of the women that I know, I can't say all women, but a lot of the women I know have been given that message. Um, your needs aren't really that important. So if you ask for them or you don't ask for them, either way, you're not getting them. So why not there? Or the message I got growing up was your needs are not important. So if you want them met, you better make it so that our only option is for us to meet your needs. And that's why I am pushy. That's why I am an 8W7. Because on my own, just politely requesting for my needs to get met, they were not met as a child. I have to be the squeaky wheel if I want to get the grease. And so that carries along into my career.
Dan:Chevans, that that's absolutely the case. The way you just phrase that now absolutely lines up with the other 8w7s that I know. And I never thought about it in that in that context. Do you remember when he was talking about when Simon Cynic was talking about the whole ghosting culture? Do you remember what he was saying? Yes. Okay. I think so. So what was interesting to me is how worked up he got about it. But rightly so, the way he phrased this was, and I didn't realize, so I mean, I think most people have have done some sort of ghosting on some level, you know, uh uh for when when it comes to dating. Um, but what he was saying is that some people are being ghosted after being in relationships with them for like six months or something like this.
Charles:Yeah.
Dan:And I didn't I didn't know that was a thing. And and the way he phrased it was it this is this is such a uh reflection of people not wanting to have an uncomfortable conversation that they would rather have this other person they had a six-month relationship think they are basically dead. They they block them from social media, they disconnect from them, they you know, they stop taking their calls, and basically you are they think that you know you are dead because it's just easier for them to not have that conversation, and then you show up, you know, like on social media, he said, like, you know, a few months later. And it's just like you're okay making this person go through the trauma of thinking that you're dead rather than having an uncomfortable conversation for a couple of minutes.
Charles:Yes, and see, this is where uh yeah, I I agree that that that's not right, that's not ethical. Uh, I've never done it, I've never had it done to me. Yeah. I can understand where that comes from, though, because again, it's it's having this message reinforced that you know, especially when when I see guys complaining about women ghosting them, not after a six-month relationship. That's that's that's that's an outlier, I'm sure. But you know, when when a woman ghosts a man, my immediate thought goes to, okay, she's she's been trained that this is the safest option. I don't necessarily mean physical safety, but just and there are a lot of guys out there that their emotional strength and resilience is in the toilet. And so if they don't get what they want out of a relationship, they have some kind of an emotional freak out act out where it's just scary, distasteful, um, unfortunate. Just and and so the woman does the math of uh I'd rather, I'd rather not potentially subject myself to that. So it's easier for me to just disappear than it is to go through that experience. And it's like, okay, I kinda I kind of get it. Um couple quick things that he mentioned. Is um ethics. He he talks about the 48-hour challenge where you go 48 hours without any kind of a lie, meaning tell them I'm not here to, yeah, my hamburgers cook just perfect. It's fine, you know, or really most people wouldn't go into that detail. Oh, it's fine, everything's great when it's not great. So he he recommended the 48 hours of uh of of No White Lies. Yeah, because he says you don't realize how many little white lies we all tell all day long. Yeah, I have pretty much given up on those because of Sam Harris's book online. He's got like a mini book that he put out all about lying and why you shouldn't do it and why it's good for you and the people around you not to do it. And and well, what about this situation? What about this? He kind of covers a lot of those.
Dan:Oh, I I'm gonna get that book. I like that. That sounds interesting, especially the situational wise.
Charles:That's that's why I would want to and he actually references a situation in that book that's very close to Simon Sinek's about going to his friend's play where the play was garbage, and how do you navigate that feedback to your friend that you care about when they're saying, Hey, how did I do? and the answer is not good. And so, yeah, Sam Sam Harris kind of covers that one too. Let's see, I wanted to cover the uh the U.S. Army Rangers when it came to how they evaluate whether somebody has made it through their training, and he said they made this change like 40 years ago, where it's can you physically do the things that we require you to do? Does your commanding officer sign off on your ability to pass this training? And do your peers sign off on it? Because he said they were they were getting an epidemic of spotlight rangers, where when the supervisors were looking at them, they were the perfect soldier. But then when it came to how they behave back in the barracks or around the people that were at their level or below, they were terrible. Yeah. And so they they changed it so that you your evaluation included a peer review, not just how the you couldn't just be a good kiss ass and and get ahead. It had to be the people at your level and below your level that also thought you were a good guy.
Dan:That reminded me of the funny uh I had never heard this before, but the monkeys where you know, from from leadership, you know, when you're looking down at a tree of monkeys, underneath you. But meanwhile, if you're one of the the workers who who work for one of these monkers looking up, ground looking up, all you're seeing are assholes. Right.
Charles:And I was just like, that is so good. He said, Yeah, during COVID, uh Steven talked about his company culture collapsing because remote work equalized all the environments. And so, you know, you thought the fact that you had free cereal and uh a slide in a pool table was going to keep people excited about their job. It's like, no, you need to. He mentioned basically it's it's the little trappings that kind of appeal to us as kids, and then above that is the money, and above that is the purpose. Yes. So people will leave a high-paying job for a job that pays less if they feel like it aligns with their purpose. But yeah, I I had friends years ago that worked for tech companies in the Orlando area where it's like, yeah, we have a ball pit, we have free cereal. It's like, have you heard of the concept of money? Just sell all those things, put those things on Craigslist right now, sell them, and then pay me more, and I'll be a lot happier. But yeah, the that kind of culture, it never appealed to me. I never understood, like, but then again, you know, I'm not getting hired, I wasn't hired straight out of college, you know, at 22 years old to go write programming for video games. But some of the people I know that were doing that, they're like, Oh, it's so cool. We have a fill in the blank. I was like, that sounds like a waste of money. Like just, you know.
Dan:So part of that probably is also bragging rights. That might be a little bit of something back then when they were doing that, right?
Charles:Bragging about your salary is not okay, but bragging about your ball pit that you have at your in your corporate headquarters, that's okay. Yeah, that's right.
Dan:I'm working at Chuck and Cheese, baby.
Charles:Exactly. Pizza Party. He talked about this was interesting, the infinite-minded leadership. And I believe in finding your why, he talks about the concept of infinite games, where you know, it it goes on forever. It's not just okay, I've reached my goal and now I'm done. It's I'll be able to look back on my career and my personal life based on what kind of things did I accomplish that people were willing to say, oh, this is a ball I want to pick up and run with, versus just okay, Charles was here and now he's gone. Yeah. You know, big deal. That's motivating. I think so. I mean, I yeah, I I feel that way. I'd like to I'd like to leave some kind of a mark that people Hey, leave your balls everywhere.
Dan:I get it. I get it.
Charles:Cut that out. Oh, that was a weak joke. Let's see. The uh there was one other thing that really jumped out at me was the uh fulfillment comes from service and truth, not status or perfection. And yeah, I I really like the exercise that we we've done and we've talked about plenty of times, which is why is it that you want something? When you say you want to be the number one podcaster, when you say you want six-pack abs, let's let's have the let's keep asking why you want that to the point where it gets uncomfortable.
Dan:That's Tony Robbins also advocates for for getting down to that because we're driven by emotions, not by logic.
Charles:Correct. And we're not going to be as we've talked about before, motivation is so fleeting. And you feel motivated right now to uh study for a professional certification so you can get a better job, or to lose a couple extra pounds so you look better. But that motivation it is it doesn't stick around. It comes and it goes. Yeah. And it gets harder and harder to do the thing you need to do to get the goal. I mean, when you don't feel like it, you gotta have something in the tank that tells you to do it anyway. And rarely is that motivation. It's gotta be discipline, it's gotta be systems, it's gotta be meaning, it's gotta be something bigger than motivation. Otherwise, you're not gonna stick with it. And and the only way that you can really uncover those tools is to ask yourself uncomfortable questions or to have a friend ask you, like, hey, listen, I want to do this, so let's let's really drill down and keep keep pressing me to give you a yeah, get it to the point where I'm giving you an explanation that you believe is true and that there's nothing else underneath it. And then then maybe we can come up with a plan to make it happen. Yeah. But I mean, yo, 75 hard, it's like why do you want to do 75 hard? Well, I want to look better. Okay, you want to look better. Good luck. See how see how I want to look better on day zero translates to being out in the rain on day thirty-seven. Right, right.
Dan:You know, yeah, yeah. You you perpetually every day you wake up you want to look better. That's there's no that's got nothing to do with anything else that you're doing. It it's just it feels good a little better. We all look a little bit better, right?
Charles:But what what are you what are you going to be willing to give up on day 51 to look better? And it's like, you better have an answer because otherwise you're you're not gonna stick with it. Mm-hmm. And that really, I mean, it really comes down to anything that you want to accomplish that is difficult for you or even difficult for the average person. If you want to accomplish something that's difficult, you gotta understand why you want it, and you gotta believe why you want it, and you gotta be willing to do what you you need to do to get it. And I think most of us don't do that level of analysis beforehand. No. Because it's it's uncomfortable and we're not sure if we're doing it right and it feels weird. And certainly sharing it with another person. I mean, sometimes if that person's a therapist or a coach, it feels a little easier because you're spending some money on it, but it's it's not easy. I mean, read Simon Sinek's book and and help you, it'll help you figure out why you want to do the things you say you want to do. And then it can also help you kind of let go of some of the things you think you should want to do that you don't really want to do. Which I think a lot of us find ourselves in that position where I should want to do these things, you know, I should want to keep my house clean, I should want to eat better, I should want to dress, you know, a little bit more to get put together, but I'm not really willing to do it on a daily basis. So anyway, I like this conversation. As in the other ones, I will share a link so you can watch the original conversation and get your own feedback out of it and your own little nuggets of truth. But uh yeah, Simon Sinick's great. Fine. Whatever you can see, he's been a guest on a podcast or he's put out a book, absolutely consume it and you'll be better off.
Dan:Yeah, for sure. He will absolutely give you the same information you may have heard before, but in a way that you've most likely never heard it before, or it and and he does it in a way where it really registers for you.
Charles:Yeah, it's happened multiple times. Yeah, I want to respond to the things he says. Yes. Not just think about it, I want to do something. And he's great at that. So um another one is uh Adam Graham. We'll have to see if he did an episode of Diary of CEO. I'm a big Adam Grant fan, so we need to see if he's done one of these and maybe we'll we'll cover him next. Sounds good. All right, thanks, Dan. We'll talk to you later. Okay, that wraps up this episode of the Mindfully Masculine Podcast. We hope this conversation gave you some new insight into what it really means to find your why, practice honest self awareness, and build a life rooted in purpose instead of performance. You know someone who might connect with or benefit from this episode, please share it with them. It's one of the best ways to support the show and keep these conversations growing. Thank you for listening to the entire episode and for being part of the community. We'll see you next time.
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